Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]  (Read 5677 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1456
  • #FourMoreSkills ;D
    • View Profile
[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« on: November 28, 2020, 05:09:53 PM »
You may not be able to go to any real open-air festivals right now. And you're definitely not able to go to indoors concerts. But there is an alternative world where all human beings are 8 pixels large, and neither have to worry about infections... nor about how many of them die for other reasons. And in that world, open-air concerts are as possible as ever. ;)

After two years in the making, the follow-up to Lemmings World Tour is finally here!



You can download both the pack itself as well as the required add-on tileset in the attachments.
Please make sure to download this tileset, strato_generalmd, as well, because it adds some miscellaneous pieces that are required to make a couple of levels work.


The music pack is the same as for Lemmings World Tour. If you don't have it yet, you can get it here!
It features my self-recorded rock / metal versions of the original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings music.
(This does not include ONML track 04, because I hate it :P , nor the "cross-promotion" tracks of Beast, Menace, and Awesome).



Lemmings Open Air aims to recreate the feeling of playing original Lemmings while at the same time using NeoLemmix skills and features, and sticking to NeoLemmix puzzle philosophy:

- The new skills Shimmier and Jumper are front and centre in this pack.
On the first two ranks, you will only have to deal with the Shimmier. And you might be glad about that, because these levels run the Shimmier through all its gears, and might possibly demand from you every last trick you can pull off with it. ;)
After that, the Jumper gets introduced on rank 3.

- A lot of levels make use of the expanded 10-slots skill panel.

- The tilesets are mainly the ones from original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings, with a few levels in my two new custom tilesets of mine added. These should however blend nicely with the classic ones:

Autumn tileset:

Fallen leaves

Money tileset:

I need a dollar

Normally, there should be no need to re-download these two styles, since they have been part of the official styles download for a while now.



Lemmings Open Air has 120 levels, 30 for each of four ranks:
Soft, Loud, Heavy, and Hardcore


Just like in Lemmings World Tour, all the levels are named after songs.
However, in reference to the famous metal festival that is Wacken Open Air, the tracks are not ordered by how famous the songs are (as it was the case in Lemmings World Tour).
Instead, they increase in order of "heaviness", starting with largely soft pop songs and ballads and ending with the most brutal death metal ever known to Lemkind. ;)

The title "Open Air" was also chosen because, after Lemmings World Tour, this was the first pack I started developing for New Formats - where the ceiling is no longer solid, but "open" and thus deadly. ;) This is also referenced by one of the later levels in the pack, which was however one of the first levels I made for it, called "Forlorn skies".

Because this is a follow-up to Lemmings World Tour, even though stylistically very different, the pack expects you to know all of the tricks that especially the first two ranks of Lemmings World Tour taught you.

Of course, if you already know a lot of tricks and consider yourself an experienced player, feel free to try this even if you haven't played Lemmings World Tour yet
- it's quite a huge bite to swallow, after all.
But don't be surprised if this pack hits you out of nowhere with something you might not know yet... ;-)


SOFT
Just the first two levels have all 18 skills that were available at that time (i.e. minus the Jumper) crammed into them. It's the fastest crash-course possible in NeoLemmix. And immediately after that, you're shoved out on stage and have to deliver! ;) The songs on this rank may be fairly easy-going, but that doesn't necessarily mean the levels will be, as well...

Don't worry, be happy

Always look on the bright side of life

LOUD
Going into slightly harder territory now. Here you will find the occasional punk / rock band, and for the ballads on this rank, they're usually already power ballads, with a little more "oomph" to them. Be prepared to use the Shimmier in all kinds of non-obvious ways!

Born to be wild

November rain

HEAVY
The Jumper gets introduced on level 2. Be prepared to have it interact with the Shimmier right from the start! After all, whether the songs are glam rock or classic old-school heavy metal, we want to see all those lemming hands up in the air! ;)

I believe in a thing called Lems

Poison

HARDCORE
These puzzles will wrench your mind as much as their titles will wrench your guts :evil: . The song titles will become less and less known as I've dredged them from the darkest depths of the Hell dimension. It's pretty much all Death- or Black Metal at this point. The final level is named after an absolute classic of the genre.

Chopped in half

Symphony of destruction


In stark contrast to Lemmings World Tour, the levels in this pack are largely abstract shapes, not specific locations or "realistic-looking" objects. The focus is on the mechanical challenge first, aesthetics come second. If the levels are pretty, that will usually just mean a nice mix of colours. ;)

However, I've put my two very artistic Christmas levels in here (that don't actually make a lot of use of the Christmas tileset). So it feels just fitting to release this pack at the end of November.

Also, there are a few levels which were hard to completely backroute-fix despite extensive testing.
Interestingly enough, though, one level that is known to have backroutes available still managed to stump one of my testers. :thumbsup:
Thus, when even the "unfixable" backroutes are hard to find, you know you've got a difficult pack on your hands! ;)

Many thanks to Armani, kaywhyn, and Flopsy for pre-release testing, as well as nin10doadict (and again Armani) for early testing!
Also thanks to Nepster for introducing the Shimmier, to namida for introducing the Jumper, and obviously to both of them for creating and maintaining New-Formats NeoLemmix. ;)


And with that, I declare this festival open! ;)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 03:52:57 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 887
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2020, 06:22:20 PM »
Congratulations on the release of your 4th 5th pack, Strato! :thumbsup: And I can see that you already managed to make use of the proposed difficulty scale. I can agree with the range of difficulty you attached to your pack ;)

Really, I can say that it was a huge honor to be a pre-tester for your pack. Other than Icho's contest #21 levels, which I also pretested, your LOA pack would be the very first pack that I have ever pre-tested. A lot of tough nuts in here, but I can highly recommend this well-done, excellent pack! :thumbsup: Also, lots of well-done and very artistic levels, especially in the money tileset :thumbsup: Do note that it's definitely more difficult on average and Strato's definitely pulling no punches here. Right out the gate the difficulty already starts high, so even the first rank Soft is no pushover. Still, I don't think that'll be enough to deter anyone in playing this pack.

Because this is a really well-done pack IMO, I really wish I could LP this, but I can't because I was a pre-tester. I definitely enjoyed myself with the pack while I pre-tested. Generally, when I have built up a lot of momentum, I tend to keep it going rather than stop playing the pack and leaving it untouched for a while.

This being said, I'm looking forward to seeing the solutions of others. Good luck and have fun! :) 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 07:35:06 PM by kaywhyn »

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1456
  • #FourMoreSkills ;D
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 07:24:09 PM »
Thanks a lot for your kind words, kaywhyn! :thumbsup:

Actually, it's already my 5th pack (Paralems, Pit Lems, Lemmicks, Lemmings World Tour, and now Lemmings Open Air). ;)

And yeah, I've already thought about the fact that most likely, this pack won't see a Let's Play. Because you've already tested it extensively, namida doesn't do LPs anymore, as far as I know, and it will most likely be too difficult for Arty and Flopsy (and Flopsy has also taken part in testing). I'm not sure if nin10doadict still does LPs, but as far as I remember, Lemmings World Tour already gave him a more than sufficient challenge ;) .

A couple of the more experienced players used to do somewhat irregular live streams on Twitch in the past (Nessy, Wafflem, Simon and others). They played many of the classics on those (NepsterLems, PimoLems, Quest from Kieran 2...). Usually, these are such adept level solvers that they can beat an entire pack in one or two sessions. So who knows, maybe one of them might be curious enough to try that one day. ;)

The main upside of LPs is that you can judge more easily how difficult a level is in terms of "how long does the player have to think about the solution before finding it?" The successful replay files you get at the end are only the end result, but that only tells you so much about how long it took.

This was especially confusing during testing, because sometimes when there were a lot of leftover skills, that made me think the level was too easy - when in fact that can still mean the player struggled quite a bit before being able to solve the level at all. I'm currently playing SEB Lems once more, and I've been noticing that on several levels there ;) .

But first of all, I'm mainly just curious to see who can beat this pack at all. :D No matter if "live" or in regular replays.

I definitely have faith in the other people who beat Lemmings United, e.g. joshescue, and of course IchoTolot himself. Nepster also, if he were still around. He implemented the Shimmier, after all, so he must have done quite a bit of testing himself for its mechanics, which is why I'd assume he knows all the tricks you can do with it. (Except that gliding onto a stack from a Reacher is no longer possible since the physics change, which was implemented by namida.) And yeah, of course, namida himself should be able to beat it... but I assume our constant input about the new skills is keeping him more than busy right now :D ...
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 887
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2020, 07:32:08 PM »
Actually, it's already my 5th pack (Paralems, Pit Lems, Lemmicks, Lemmings World Tour, and now Lemmings Open Air). ;)

Oh, right! I totally forgot about Lemmicks :forehead: Also, if I'm not mistaken, the only other person to have released more than 5 packs is namida. Everyone else seemed to have released just a pack or two for NL.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 07:56:38 PM »
Congratulations to the release, Strato. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

One thing: What does Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend) mean in comparison to the normal ratings of the other packs ???

Maybe simply calling it Medium - Hard would fit better so it's in line with most of the rest. ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1456
  • #FourMoreSkills ;D
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2020, 10:36:49 PM »
Thanks, IchoTolot! ;)

The difficulty descriptions in the title, as kaywhyn correctly identified, are taken from WillLem's suggestions for difficulty ratings. I used them because he proposed them as a unified terminology for the entire forum.

Therefore, if there are some other, more established terms to describe pack-difficulty ranges, I'll be happy to change them! ;)

But currently it still seems to me as if everyone chooses whatever descriptions they want. ??? You might remember, a while ago I asked what "Sunsoft difficulty" means, because some people were still describing the difficulty of their ranks in terms of Fun through Mayhem and then up to Sunsoft. When in reality, most custom packs are far more difficult than original Sunsoft, even on the early ranks.

Medium to Hard might be fitting, though it sounds to me like a more limited range. You described Lemmings United as "hard to extreme". I honestly don't know whether this pack goes all the way up to "extreme", i.e. to levels of difficulty that might be on par with some stuff from United. You're probably the best person to judge that. ;)

I would think that "If kaywhyn and Armani struggled with some of these levels, I guess that means yes". But by now I've watched quite a few episodes of kaywhyn's Lemmings Migration LP, and I've understood that even an adept level solver can occasionally get stumped by packs that aren't considered horrendously difficult as a whole. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2020, 10:58:23 PM »
Quote
I would think that "If kaywhyn and Armani struggled with some of these levels, I guess that means yes". But by now I've watched quite a few episodes of kaywhyn's Lemmings Migration LP, and I've understood that even an adept level solver can occasionally get stumped by packs that aren't considered horrendously difficult as a whole.

You would be surprized how fast you can struggle, but the better question is What does "struggle" mean. ???  I would define it as taking several hours to solve something and that 100% can happen even in Medium packs in my case.

For comparison, I would rank "Lemmings World Tour" as Medium. As I could breeze through most parts without much difficulty, while struggling on some levels. As an example, I found "MegSEGAbytes" more difficult and that's a "Medium-Hard" one.

If this is a step up and I would struggle on some more I would put it in "Medium-Hard" and if it has multiple levels stumping me for days then "Hard-Extreme".

If kaywhyn and Armani were stuck on quite a few levels for some days/weeks then definitly write "Hard-Extreme"! For comparison, this was the case on quite a few United levels.

But it's the easiest if they can just quickly post in here what gave them more trouble and how they would rate it as I haven't played it yet. :P

Quote
But currently it still seems to me as if everyone chooses whatever descriptions they want.

You can see almost all packs just use Easy- Medium - Hard - Extreme in the topic's title. (And Beginner for the Intro Pack ;))

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 887
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2020, 11:34:53 PM »
Medium to Hard might be fitting, though it sounds to me like a more limited range. You described Lemmings United as "hard to extreme". I honestly don't know whether this pack goes all the way up to "extreme", i.e. to levels of difficulty that might be on par with some stuff from United. You're probably the best person to judge that. ;)

Definitely not extreme. The longest I've been stumped on any level of your LOA pack was about 1-1.5 hours, and it was one of the Hardcore levels, a fire level to be exact. Armani also found it to be very hard. Not only was it hard, when my solution kept failing due to what I believe might be a lot of pixel precision, I eventually started raging.

For comparison, I would rank "Lemmings World Tour" as Medium. As I could breeze through most parts without much difficulty, while struggling on some levels. As an example, I found "MegSEGAbytes" more difficult and that's a "Medium-Hard" one.

I agree with your assessment of the difficulty for LWT, while I can't speak for MegSEGAbytes since I haven't played it yet, though I eventually will. For LWT, when I was giving Strato feedback, I echoed a lot of the feedback you gave him. For example, I agree with you that the difficulty of the Noisemaker rank, the first rank, is all over the place and is quite harsh in several places, while Amateur, the second rank, isn't as scattered. After the first two ranks, I breezed through most levels very easily, while there were some levels that I ended up struggling with for quite a while, especially in the Legend rank. Also, the final level, The Grand Puzzle, also took me about an hour.

Quote
If this is a step up and I would struggle on some more I would put it in "Medium-Hard" and if it has multiple levels stumping me for days then "Hard-Extreme".

If kaywhyn and Armani were stuck on quite a few levels for some days/weeks then definitly write "Hard-Extreme"! For comparison, this was the case on quite a few United levels.

You're pretty much spot on with Medium - Hard. Or even Medium - Very Hard can work too. As mentioned above, both Armani and I had a really difficult time with a particular fire level in Hardcore. I'm not sure how long it took him, but the level took me about 1-1.5 hours. That's the longest I've been stuck on any level in LOA, so definitely not extreme like United. That being said, Hard - Extreme is very appropriate for United, as you will recall several levels took me weeks/months. Even more that it took me exactly 1 year to solve the entire pack. Yes, you read right Strato, 1 year.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2020, 11:54:02 PM »
Quote
The longest I've been stumped on any level of your LOA pack was about 1-1.5 hours

Then I would say "Medium-Hard".

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1456
  • #FourMoreSkills ;D
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Medium - Hard]
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2020, 12:05:23 AM »
Alright, difficulty description changed! ;) Thanks for your input, guys! :thumbsup:

I'm glad to hear you consider LWT Medium difficulty, since that's precisely what it was designed to be: A "filler" and intermediate step for the gap between beginner and expert content. Now we have more packs in this difficulty range, of course, but at the time of its creation, LWT was one of the few.

Quote
Yes, you read right Strato, 1 year.

Wow. I guess IchoTolot has made the Holy Grail of level packs then! :D I remember some user (who was comparatively new at that time, I think?) uttering his ambitions to create a pack that even our most skilled solvers would take one year to solve. And the other forum members replied along the lines of "good luck, IchoTolot, Nepster, and namida are pretty good at this game" :evil: . But of course, that didn't include the possibility of IchoTolot himself making a pack that took other users one year or more to solve...


But for the moment, I'm just happy to see how many people have already downloaded the pack within just a couple of hours :lem-mindblown: . Looks like building the anticipation for two years really paid off! :D

So thanks a lot and good luck to all who are playing at the moment! ;) Feel free to post your replays, no matter how far you get.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2020, 12:24:47 AM »
Quote
But for the moment, I'm just happy to see how many people have already downloaded the pack within just a couple of hours :lem-mindblown: . Looks like building the anticipation for two years really paid off!

Most visitors are silent here and don't have an account. Right now there are 60+ people here.

As I always say: Most impact from everything on here is silent and you will never know of it. ;P   This is an excellent example of that silent majority being recognizable!

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 887
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Medium - Hard]
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2020, 02:13:01 AM »
I remember some user (who was comparatively new at that time, I think?) uttering his ambitions to create a pack that even our most skilled solvers would take one year to solve. And the other forum members replied along the lines of "good luck, IchoTolot, Nepster, and namida are pretty good at this game" :evil: . But of course, that didn't include the possibility of IchoTolot himself making a pack that took other users one year or more to solve...

I remember this too! I don't remember who or which pack it is, if it ever was named at the time, but I remember reading this, at a time when I was still visiting the site and reading these posts silently in the background :P

Offline Armani

  • Posts: 142
  • :D
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2020, 02:18:55 PM »
Congratulation from me as well :thumbsup:
It was very fun and good time testing LOA.

It was the first custom pack I've pretested for me as well except for several contest levels.
I haven't play Strato's other packs so I can't compare difficulty of LOA to his other packs, but I think LOA is a quite difficult pack even in current custom level scene of the forum.
Even levels from the first rank are not simple after two tutorial levels.

It's the first custom pack featuring both shimmier and jumper as far as I know.(I could be wrong here.) So if you are a big fan of these fancy new skills, this is the pack you should play. :thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 887
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2020, 05:04:55 PM »
Even levels from the first rank are not simple after two tutorial levels.

I don't consider the first two levels tutorials at all. At least not in the sense that they teach anything in regards to what the skills do. Yes, they're great 1-of-everything levels, but they certainly aren't tutorials. I think we're all in agreement that this pack is certainly not for beginners, as I did mention that the levels already start off difficult right out the gate.

Offline WouterSmits

  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2020, 05:42:19 PM »
how an i beat first level what iv do its inposseble
everything one
you need to dig
i need 3 builders to do