So, I'm just rewatching IchoTolot's Let's Play of Lemmings 2, looking for applications of the Spearer. Even though the Spearer appeared on the skill panel, it wasn't used so far (Beach, Outdoor, and Egyptian tribe at the moment). Though IchoTolot did mention repeatedly in that Let's Play how he really doesn't like the Slider
.
why not have the Rock Climber, which would basically be a climber that can handle overhangs similar to what shimmiers can handle as well as having this synergy with the shimmier that was rejected for the regular climber
As I said earlier, in Lemmings 2 this "flipping around the corner" behaviour is typical of the Shimmier and independent of whether the lemming is a Rock Climber or just a regular Climber - as long as he can climb one way or the other, the Shimmier will flip around the corner and transition back into a (Rock) Climber. He will only fall down if he is just a Shimmier (i.e. got to the ceiling by jumping, rather than by dangling and then being assigned a Shimmier). Dangling from the ceiling is something only the Rock Climber can do; the regular Climber will just fall down immediately when hitting a sloped or flat ceiling.
The Shimmier however can't go up or down sloped ceilings in Lemmings 2; he will immediately start dangling and fall down as well. Sloped ceilings are exclusively reserved for the Rock Climber in Lemmings 2, meaning he will always look the other way compared to the Shimmier. Since we didn't want to have that close overlap between Climber and Rock Climber, the Shimmier was powered up in NeoLemmix in this regard, as to make the Rock Climber even more redundant.
I do think Climber and Rock Climber are more closely related than Slider and Floater though;
Glider and Floater are much more comparable, I'd say, yet we still have both
.
but the reason I bring it up is that I don't think it would make sense to have three different non-terrain altering ways to get lemmings down from a ledge that's too high, but only one non-terrain altering way to get them up.
Well, you could argue that both the Jumper and the Shimmier are non-terrain-altering ways to get lemmings up... non-terrain-altering is definitely true, and the "getting up" happens through the fact that both skills jump. Of course, a lot of times, a Shimmier requires a Climber to even get to the ceiling, but even when he doesn't, it's still an upward-moving skill. Of course, once he is attached to the ceiling, that ceiling can take him up or down, depending on its overall shape. But he's still traveling at a higher altitude than he was before.
But if you want more upward-moving skills: I think nobody has brought up the Super Lem (the L2 one, not ONML) yet? It's the only flying skill from L2 that doesn't involve the annoying fan tool, and I agree with IchoTolot's statement from the LP that it's easy enough to use. It would also add something completely new, because it allows a lemming to move freely, but always straight to the position the courser is currently placed. By pausing and hitting play again, even in L2 you can control this skill quite nicely - with framestepping and rewinding in NeoLemmix, of course it would be even less of a problem.
One of the other proposed movement-based skills, the runner, is something that I think has more abuse potential (I really, really don't like precise timing levels) than puzzle potential (as there are already many, many ways to separate lemmings from crowds). It exists in Lix, but Lix has multiplayer, which is where I think the runner has the most potential. Even without the implication that it will be the last new skill ever, I do not feel prepared to endorse either of these skills as future additions to the game.
Thanks for bringing up this distinction!
Indeed, I can imagine that when competing with other players, speed by itself can be a key factor. In a single-player game such as NeoLemmix, however, I agree with you that I don't see much use for the Runner aside from adding execution difficulty through timing-based solutions - while players who like these kinds of solutions still have the Jumper to isolate a pioneer lemming from a free-flowing crowd.
I think of the skills that have been suggested, the projectile skills have the most potential. It takes enough other skills to replicate the functionality that it creates lots of backroute potential when working around the fact they don't exist - if the puzzle can even be made to work without them. But I don't think it makes sense to implement a ranged construction skill, but not a ranged destructive skill (or vice versa). That would bring us to 21 skills, which isn't as nice of a number as 20, but... does that really matter?
I think many of the skills proposed are potentially good additions and it's too bad that we are forced to pick one.
I think it would be helpful if namida defined again what he means by "final version of NeoLemmix". Obviously, we all get that at some point he's tired of adding new stuff to the game and wanting to wrap up his work on it. But since the code is open source and freely available, I guess nobody could stop another interested user with skills in C / C+ / C++ / C# (I forgot which of these New-Formats NeoLemmix was written in again
) from picking up after namida and maybe adding further skills in the future.
Even if this would count as a separate thing from "official and finalised NeoLemmix" (which could remain in a state where it always has 20 skills), a separate engine could start with the latest version of the NeoLemmix source code, and then simply work its way from there.
I already brought up the idea of Nepster maybe returning after the Jumper has been implemented... although I remember Nepster more for
removing stuff from NeoLemmix than for
adding much...
But we need to remember that the Shimmier was still implemented by him.
Anyhow, if there's a general interest in the community in having further skills some time in the far future, who knows? Maybe someone else with knowledge in these programming languages will join the community... we could even try advertising NeoLemmix deliberately on platforms for these programming languages... and that someone might say:
"Do you know what's an even better number of skills to have than 20? 24! Because that's three sets of standard-eight!"
And then we can add the Slider, the Spearer, the Laser Blaster for upward digging, and the Roper for downward building...
But as I said, right now, such considerations would be "little finger - whole arm"
.
And no, I'm of course not calling for any other programmers to "steal namida's baby" and take over
. Quite the opposite - we have already seen namida giving his baby NeoLemmix into Nepster's part-time foster care, at a time when namida himself didn't want to be involved in NeoLemmix development all that much; until he took over again when Nepster went on a hiatus.
Who says something like that can't happen again?