Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Difficulty: Medium] [1.06 UPDATE]  (Read 35643 times)

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [ANOTHER LEVEL FIX]
« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2020, 11:00:23 PM »
Ah, I was already wondering if it was really supposed to be that fiddly. Thanks for the quick fix! :thumbsup:

Haha the Sensational 16 I solved was still really easy. Should be even easier now that there's only 1 regular Lemmina :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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[NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2020, 12:55:45 AM »
Eesh! I just hope that nobody feels too put-out by it. I'm glad the pack is getting a bit of attention at the moment, or I might not have spotted it!

To be fair, 8 and 8 makes for basically the same solution, it just involves fiddly crowd control at the beginning. Not sure how that would affect the Talisman, though...

Anyway, it's fixed now! 8-)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2020, 06:39:08 AM »
Even better that there is now an LP of the pack. No need to load up the game this way. Just need an internet connection :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2020, 10:15:57 PM »
Alright, here's the third rank added. Strangely enough, I probably found Tricksy 02 the most difficult one. That was the only one I had to skip for a while and come back to again later.

Replays for rank 3 are attached; I deleted my old solution for Sensational 16 since it obviously no longer works since the fix.

Stylistically, this is a nice pack to play during Christmas time, without it being an outright Christmas pack! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2020, 11:54:02 PM »
Stylistically, this is a nice pack to play during Christmas time, without it being an outright Christmas pack! :thumbsup:

Thanks! I guess it does have holiday vibes :lemcat:

And thanks for the replays. I'll wait until you've finished the pack before reviewing them, and I'll keep an eye out and see if you've beaten any of the current records.

@Kaywhyn - that reminds me, I will do the same with your replays as well :)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #110 on: December 12, 2020, 12:22:59 AM »
No worries, WillLem. Take your time. I know you're a busy man. I'm just happy to hear that you're enjoying my LP of your pack. There's a reply to a video comment that I would like an answer to when you get to it, though ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #111 on: December 16, 2020, 05:09:33 PM »
And here's the Pandemonium rank, that's the pack completed! :D

Feedback (click to show/hide)

I'm not really sure what to think of the label "hard" now as a difficulty description for level packs. SEB Lems, my own Lemmings Open Air, and Lemminas all claim to go up to "hard".

Yet, SEB Lems has a bunch of levels that still have me stumped completely.
Lemmings Open Air seems a little easier for me (but Flopsy might see it exactly the other way round ;D ).
And Lemminas isn't really that hard at all, except for 2-3 levels that are miles above the rest in difficulty. This is not due to the fact that Lemminas starts out as very easy - that's completely fine - it just stays in the "Medium" field very long, and actually goes back into Medium difficulty on the highest rank after the most difficult puzzles have already been solved (assuming you want to play them chronologically - which, as said before, I didn't do, precisely for that reason :P ).



This however should not detract too much from all the positive things I have to say about this pack! ;)


First of all, mad respect for all the effort you've put into not only designing the custom sprites (which I've already made use of myself with recolourings of the Lemminas), but also the trap animations, the exits, the recoloured terrain etc. All this comes together really nicely to create this weird, kitschy but also still inviting Candy world that, as I said before, fits nicely into the Holiday season without actually being a Holiday Lemmings pack (because we've definitely seen enough of those!)

Similar to Holiday packs though, Lemminas suffers a little from using pretty much the same tileset throughout the entire pack (with Holiday packs, that's usually the ONML Snow tileset, which is largely identical to the Christmas one). Of course, I know that many of the recoloured pieces were taken from different tilesets originally, but since they've been recoloured, they form a new unit. A unit that looks very cohesive, but at the same time, that also makes it more repetitive, because parts from Crystal, Marble, Snow, Brick etc. no longer differ that much in colour. They all have some shade of purple to them, so you can blend them with each other easily, but that comes at the cost of the designer basically no longer being able to switch to a different tileset at all. It basically looks like a recoloured version of the "Epic" tileset, which used to exist in older versions of NeoLemmix (and I believe it's originally from SuperLemmini? Since I've definitely seen it appear in Arty's SubLems, and those particular levels were part of both engines).

My favourite pieces are therefore probably those that you added as completely new ones, like the ice cream, the Melter trap (sure, that's a modification of that one Crystal trap, but only the trap itself is, not the animation), and the ice-cream ball that is a twist on the retractable Boulder trap from the Dirt tileset. :thumbsup: This "creamy" look definitely makes for much more realistic ice cream than what I achieved when I used the lollis from namida's Candy tileset, sticking them behind the tight yellow fence pieces from the Bubble tileset to create ice cream in a waffle for the Lemmings World Tour level "Bon appetit!" :D Similarly, I still had to stack the chocolate water from namida Candy to create a class of coke for that same level. Your water here is supposed to be actual coke (Pepsi), so indeed, it looks a lot more "fizzy" :thumbsup: .

Speaking of namida's Candy tileset: All the sweet ingredients from the Lemminas tileset should generally blend well with the existing Candy tilesets (that is namida Candy, Rayman Candy, and Raymanni Food). So thanks a lot for contributing to the Lemmings buffet! ;)

I could even imagine the Lemminas becoming the unofficial new "standard sprites" for Candy-themed levels. (I'm not saying they should be linked to e.g. the namida Candy tileset automatically when that tileset is selected; I'm just predicting a lot of people might choose "Lemminas" as a level theme when they just design a regular Candy level.) Then you would basically have created a "Candy Tribe", to put it into L2 terms. :thumbsup:

Since Lemmings 3D had a Candy tileset (better known as the Jelly Belly one), don't be surprised if some of these pieces show up in my upcoming "Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll"! ;) (I'm pretty sure the L3D Candy levels only have chocolate water, though, no coke... but I have no problems expanding on those original L3D pieces if it fits both in terms of flavour - pun intended - and visual appeal. :D )
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard] [SENSATIONAL 16 FIXED]
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2020, 06:21:14 PM »
Congrats Strato! :thumbsup: I definitely agree with your assessment on Pandemonium 9 being the hardest in the rank. It's fascinating, since the trick used there is quite similar to the one used in Pandemonium 2, which I figured out fairly quickly. Otherwise, I thought the only other very hard level in the pack was Tricksy 9, the remake of POOR WEE CREATURES. I actually ended up struggling with that level slightly longer than what you see in my LP video, since I had forgotten to open OBS before recording! :XD: The entire Tricksy 9-13 video is not the original recording as a result. Interestingly, it seems all the remakes of original Lemmings levels were the hardest ones. I guess Pandemonium 3 also falls into the hard category as well, although it's more due to how there's a lot going on in the level more than anything, as the difficulty is offset by how it's an 8-of-everything.

I think you're also in agreement that Tricksy is the pack's strongest rank. I was definitely expecting the Pandemonium rank to be far more difficult, especially given how I completely underestimated the difficulty of the Apocalypse rank of Doomsday Lemmings. Not a bad thing that the entire rank wasn't very hard. It still slowed my solving time significantly, but in a good way of course ;)

I'm not really sure what to think of the label "hard" now as a difficulty description for level packs. SEB Lems, my own Lemmings Open Air, and Lemminas all claim to go up to "hard".

Yet, SEB Lems has a bunch of levels that still have me stumped completely.
Lemmings Open Air seems a little easier for me (but Flopsy might see it exactly the other way round ;D ).
And Lemminas isn't really that hard at all, except for 2-3 levels that are miles above the rest in difficulty. This is not due to the fact that Lemminas starts out as very easy - that's completely fine - it just stays in the "Medium" field very long, and actually goes back into Medium difficulty on the highest rank after the most difficult puzzles have already been solved (assuming you want to play them chronologically - which, as said before, I didn't do, precisely for that reason :P ).

I definitely agree with you to an extent about hard possibly not as good of an indicator of an upper range to Lemminas' difficulty. As mentioned above, only 2-3 levels in the pack I found hard as well, with Pandemonium 9 the most difficult. Even Swerdis says it was hard for him, and I absolutely agree. So, this appears to be the universal agreement of what's the hardest in the pack.

The fact that some SEB Lems levels currently have you stuck really makes me want to speed my LPs along so that I can get to SEB Lems ASAP and help you out with the sticky parts of the pack. However, this will likely not be for another 2 weeks or so :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard]
« Reply #113 on: December 17, 2020, 12:15:51 AM »
Some response to the recent feedback from Kaywhyn and Strato. Note that this specifically responds to the written feedback, as I have yet to watch Kaywhyn's full LP and view either sets of replays - this is something I'll specifically set time aside for at some point in the not too distant future.

I really appreciate the time you've taken to provide this feedback, and I'm sure it will help my future packs to be even better :lemcat:

Response to Kaywhyn's Feedback (click to show/hide)

Response to Strato's Feedback (click to show/hide)

Thank you both once again for your comments: it's all very useful stuff which will help to shape my future output. Above all, I'm glad that you seemed to enjoy the pack overall, and after some time since I released this pack I'm coming to regard it as a flawed but beautiful effort.

I've modified the suggested difficulty of this pack in response to your feedback, also. Having encountered a lot more custom content over the past few months, I'd have to agree that Lemminas is by no means a "hard" pack (apart from those levels, of course ;P)

Many thanks!

WillLem :lemcat:
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 12:32:31 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard]
« Reply #114 on: December 17, 2020, 01:30:29 AM »
Well, it is the final rank, what did you expect? :crylaugh: I didn't want the entire pack to be a walkover, even though I was aiming for a more moderate level of difficulty. It's gratifying to see that the pack didn't give you too much trouble, generally.

It has to do with how I managed to get through every level of the pack with just one video while Pandemonium 9 took more than one more than anything. Especially since none of the other levels in the Pandemonium rank were too hard for me except that one.

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Quite honestly, I think I both prefer, and find it easier, to remix existing levels rather than create totally new ones. If I already know a level's solution, I have more fun modifying it and giving it a new flavour than creating new puzzles totally from scratch. So, it makes sense that these would be the most interesting/challenging levels in the pack.

I totally understand! Certainly nothing wrong with taking an existing level and making a new puzzle out of it :P I kind of suspect that I might end up doing most of my levels that way if I ever get into level pack creation. I'm certainly no artist myself, and so creating new original levels will be quite difficult for me.

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the player cannot possibly avoid it, and anybody that doesn't spend too long with the level paused at the start will discover what's going on very quickly. I've already modified this graphic as much as I'm going to. I do appreciate what you're saying, but I think there's only so much you can do when it comes to custom graphics: at some point, you have to draw the line between what you find visually pleasing as a creator, and what the player needs to know just by looking. Start the level, press play, see what happens - it's a motion-based video game, not a picture puzzle! Sorry for the abruptness here btw, this is just something I feel very strongly about! Whilst I have come round to the way of thinking that everything should be clear to a player at first glance where possible, there are certain things that can only be discovered by actually playing the game.

No worries, you weren't abrupt here. I'm not saying you should change the graphic for the object at all. It's just to me it looks like it can easily be mistaken for something animating in the background and cannot be interacted with. However, it is a fault of my own for planning out the solution in my mind before I let the level play out for a few seconds to see what happens. Also, it's another I need to familiarize myself with the objects of a tileset. After all, the more exposure of seeing the same object over and over, the more familiar it gets. Again, there's plenty of tilesets that I have yet to play levels in. In particular, there were a few contest entries from a few months ago that had that. IIRC, mantha16's R2 and Nessy's R3 levels were all in unfamiliar tilesets to me.

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Another case of aesthetics vs. level clarity. Since this part of the level is never used (and is in fact impossible to use as part of any solution), I figured aesthetics ought to win. Another thing I'll watch out for in future, though - it's been noted already.

Then you need to watch my replay, since I do use that part of the level in my solution :P

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I think this one's an example of my tendency towards execution difficulty making it into the game. I still like the level, but I can see why players might find it somewhat tiresome. I'd encourage you to just see levels like this as something a bit different that you can just play your way through.

I definitely have high respect for you for liking the challenge of execution. I don't mind them either, and I certainly like them to an extent, so I don't outright necessarily hate such levels so much. This particular level happens to be a type that I hate due to repeatedly spamming the same skill just to save lemmings you can't afford to lose over and over in a very short amount of time. That's the kind of level that gets boring and annoying to me very quickly. In other words, it's obvious what the solution is, the execution is difficult/fiddly.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Very Easy - Hard]
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2020, 02:49:43 AM »
It has to do with how I managed to get through every level of the pack with just one video while Pandemonium 9 took more than one more than anything.

I haven't finished watching the LPs yet, it's definitely on my to-do list though. I'm looking forward to seeing how you got around to solving this one, and it's great that you filmed the entire process :thumbsup:

I totally understand!... I kind of suspect that I might end up doing most of my levels that way if I ever get into level pack creation. I'm certainly no artist myself, and so creating new original levels will be quite difficult for me

Remix levels are a great way to get started with it. It's very inspiring and you'll likely end up finding that you modify a level to such an extent that it basically is a new level. At that point, change up the tileset and you've got yourself an original level!

Another idea is to simply put a map together totally instinctively - just go with whatever you feel is right, then give yourself tons of skills and solve the level. Then, reduce the skillset to whatever you used: instant puzzle! Granted, this isn't always the best way to make levels but it's another good way to get started.

Then you need to watch my replay, since I do use that part of the level in my solution :P

Duly noted, I'll watch out for that! And - again, in future I'll make sure the player can always see the terrain regardless of aesthetics. In fact, level 3 of WillLem's SUPERLEMMINGS has all the lizards set to No Overwrite for this exact reason, even though I think it looks daft when they're all behind the rocks :P

I definitely have high respect for you for liking the challenge of execution. I don't mind them either, and I certainly like them to an extent

Thanks :lemcat:

This particular level happens to be a type that I hate due to repeatedly spamming the same skill just to save lemmings you can't afford to lose over and over in a very short amount of time. That's the kind of level that gets boring and annoying to me very quickly. In other words, it's obvious what the solution is, the execution is difficult/fiddly.

Again, duly noted. I'll likely avoid this sort of thing in future :lemcat:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Easy - Medium]
« Reply #116 on: December 17, 2020, 07:03:40 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure what you mean. If you're happy to edit the level and show me a replay of the solution you had in mind, I'd be more than happy to consider it for a sequel level (if you'd be happy for me to do that, of course)!

I don't like to mess around with other people's levels in the editor, so I thought I would just save a manual replay of the solution as far as it gets before failing.

But thanks to the truly excessive amount of Walkers you provided on this particular level, the crowd-control method can actually still lead to a working solution. :D Maybe this was even intended, because I unlocked another talisman with it. Although you really do have to many Walkers that most likely, the talisman can also be achieved without containing the crowd at the bottom.

Replay is attached.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Easy - Medium]
« Reply #117 on: December 17, 2020, 11:44:28 PM »
But thanks to the truly excessive amount of Walkers you provided on this particular level, the crowd-control method can actually still lead to a working solution. :D Maybe this was even intended, because I unlocked another talisman with it.

That is indeed one of the intended solutions! There is, however, a reason I deliberately didn't provide enough Stackers to play out the whole level like this...

Although you really do have to many Walkers that most likely, the talisman can also be achieved without containing the crowd at the bottom.

...and that's exactly it. The original level had only Walkers and Builders, with the idea being to juggle the crowd all the way to the top using only these skills, and create a safety bridge in the meantime. However, this just made for a level which even I thought was way too ridiculous, repetitive and spammy. So, I added Floaters and reduced the number of Walkers available, so that lems could float down and then meander their way back up the staircase.

The level existed in this version for pre-release testing, and feedback was uninanimous - the level sucked! So, I added enough Stackers to allow for easy crowd-control solutions, whilst still retaining some of the spirit of the original version of the level, i.e. it's still necessary to use Walkers to juggle the crowd some of the way.

In hindsight, the result is a level which is neither one thing nor the other: it's a fairly easy control-the-crowd/prepare-the-route level with a bit of execution-focused stuff at the end. It's very much an example of a level that I either should have just stuck with the original idea but maybe reined it in a bit, or scrapped it altogether. I only kept it in because I love the layout, and it has multiple possible solutions which made for somewhat interesting Talismans.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback. This is still a level I have a certain fondness for despite its obvious flaws, and I hope to create a much more interesting version of it for the sequel :lemcat:
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 01:51:48 PM by WillLem »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Easy - Medium]
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2020, 06:54:26 PM »
I solved all the levels and talismans.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NL] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Easy - Medium]
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2020, 07:05:16 PM »
Brilliant stuff! Thanks Proxima. I'll go through your replays with Kaywhyn's and Strato's at some point. I'll look out for if you've set any new records as well. I'll likely make time for that sometime this week :lemcat: