[DISC.][PLAYER] Jumper physics

[namida]

So, the plan is for V12.9.X to introduce the Jumper skill. Thus, it's time to figure out how this skill will work.

Some discussion has already been had on Discord. I provided two sample images (1st and 2nd attachments here) for the width / height of the jump respectively, and asked people what their instinctive reactions are re: what the jumper should / shouldn't be able to do.

For width - I felt that the 32px gap should be a near-miss, but others all felt it should be crossable.

For height - I felt 16px should definitely be possible to jump and land on, but 20px maybe should not (with 24px being a definite no). There was some disagreement about whether 16px should be, but it seemed to lean more towards "yes, it should be" overall.

To avoid a 32px gap needing too much precision, 36px was proposed as the width. I like this suggestion. For reference, this is very slightly shorter than a platformer bridge (which is 39px).

This lead to 18px being proposed as the figure for the height - partly due to being exactly half the width, and also because it's exactly between the "should be reachable" 16 and "should not be reachable" 20.

The other details that came up:
- Jumper -> Hoister transition, for near-misses with regards to height. This would allow the 20px block to be ascendable - but with a hoister transition in the process.
- Head checks. These should be similar to the builder or shimmier checks.


The third attached graphic is how a jumper assignment, based on 36px length / 18px height, would play out in various places in some of the Fun levels. Note that while this graphic takes the Jumper-Hoister proposal into account, it does NOT take head checks into account. (You may want to open the image in a viewer tool and zoom in a bit.)


Overall, I very much like the general nature of this proposal, but I am open to tweaks to the specifics (or even to larger tweaks, if there's enough support for them - maybe someone will suggest a brilliant idea that hasn't been considered yet, for example).


It looks like no one has a problem with the suggested 36 x 18 trajectory. Some other questions that came up:

Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete?

If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall?

If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier?

See reply #13 for my thoughts on these.


Reply #24 has made some decisions: Jumper-Climbers grabbing and climbing a wall mid-jump will be allowed; as will Jumpers grabbing a ceiling to shimmy. On the other hand, Jumper->Walker and Swimmer->Jumper will not be allowed.

Still remaining open are:
- Should a Jumper-Glider start gliding at the peak of the jump or at the end?
- Should the splat distance be counted from the top of the jump or the end?
- If a Jumper hits a wall mid-jump, should he fall facing the same direction, or turn around (and still fall)?
- Should it be possible to assign a Jumper to a climbing lemming (to "wall-jump")?
- Should updrafts affect Jumpers, and if so, how?


As of reply #51, poll results suggest jumpers turning around upon hitting a wall is favored. A new poll has been put up to confirm whether this is "turn around and continue the jump", or "turn around and fall" - but I'll note I'm leaning strongly towards the latter.

Further polls have suggested "turn around and fall", and ruled out the possibility of transitioning automatically to a "slider".

There's significant preference for allowing wall-jumping, and gliding from the top of the jump arc.


Current status as at post #96:
- Jumper<->Climber transitions are allowed, in both directions.
- Swimmer -> Jumper transition will not be allowed.
- Jumpers cannot be cancelled with a Walker, and cannot cancel a Blocker.
- Jumper will turn around and immediately fall upon hitting a wall (unless the Jumper is a climber).
- Fall distance is measured from the point of transition to a Faller.
- Gliding begins from the top of the arc (or if the Glider is assigned after this point, it begins immediately upon assignment).
- Jumpers will not be affected by updrafts.
- Double-jump and/or Faller->Jumper transition will not be allowed.

Post #97 has a detailed list of interactions with other states: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4656.msg80439#msg80439

A Jumper experimental build has been released: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.0


Remaining matters:
- https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4656.msg81196#msg81196 (loosen first frame terrain checks)
- https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.msg81608#msg81608 (editor pickup issue)

[WillLem]

This all looks/sounds ace!

Happy to help out with sprites as and when required. I'll no doubt base them on the Lemmings 2 sprite, as has already been suggested. Anyone know where to get these?

[namida]

Anyone know where to get these?

I second this. I was intending to use the L2 sprite (modified to NL colors) as a placeholder for now, at least. I found a post from ccexplore where he mentions he ripped the DOS L2 graphics, but this post links to another post - and the link is from the .com days, thus, broken. (The post itself almost certianly still exists, but I couldn't locate it. Even if found, it may be affected by the Great Attachment Disappearance of Whatever-Year-That-Happened.)

[Proxima]

During the Discord discussion, I checked with Lix, and it turns out the Lix jumper can cross a gap of 24 pixels (all measurements are in low-res pixels, for ease of comparison) and ascend a step of 12 pixels. The very first level, Any Way You Want, even has a brick specially placed to make what would be a 16-pixel step ascendable (lending support to the idea that from the level designer's point of view, it would be "better" if the jumper could ascend that high in the first place).

I support making the NL jumper able to cross gaps of 36 pixels, wider than the Lix jumper. That's because in Lix, the jumper is the weakest of four possibilities for sending a single lix over a gap (the others being the runner-jumper, fling-bomber and batter). In NL, none of the others exist, and we have to get by with just one size of jumper, so it makes sense for it to be a bit more powerful.

I don't know what the corresponding details are for the L2 jumper.

[namida]

In NL, none of the others exist, and we have to get by with just one size of jumper, so it makes sense for it to be a bit more powerful.

NL does have one alternative that Lix doesn't: the Glider. However, this comes with its own drawbacks compared to the Jumper or any of Lix's alternatives, in particular needing to get a high starting point.

(Actually, in some cases, the Shimmier or Swimmer could also serve that purpose. However, these both need even more specific setups than the Glider.)

[Strato Incendus]

Poor WillLem... looks like you'll have to do the "which classic levels can be beaten with the new skills?" challenge all over again once the Jumper rolls around...

And I mean, when looking at the examples from classic levels that namida provided here, even I feel tempted to try this out. The design options feel next to limitless!

Let's be honest, the Shimmier is already cool enough, getting a lemming across a gap without always having to resort to a constructive skill by default - thereby enabling solutions where the crowd has to take a different path than the pioneer(s). But the Jumper doesn't even require a ceiling above his head to do it - in exchange for being more restricted in the horizontal distance he can cover, compared to the Shimmier.

[WillLem]

Poor WillLem... looks like you'll have to do the "which classic levels can be beaten with the new skills?" challenge all over again once the Jumper rolls around...

Fear not! It's a challenge I await with relish.

Having said that, the only thing missing from new skills is a downwardly-destructive skill, which the jumper doesn't do; so sadly, It won't make any of the non-possible levels possible. It will be a lot of fun though!

[Dullstar]

I have some questions about proposed skill interactions:

Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.

If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.

If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.

[namida]

I have some questions about proposed skill interactions:

Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.

If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.

If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.

All valid questions, but let's make sure we're all happy about the basic trajectory of the jump first, before worrying about these edge cases.

[Strato Incendus]

Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.

This sounds weird to me. Both Gliders and Floaters need some time as a regular Faller before they start pulling out their parachute. So it would be counter-intuitive that a jumping Glider would be able to pull it out right at the top of the parabolic curve without ever going through the Faller animation first. I can see how this would be useful, of course, because it would allow him to glide from a higher position - or also force him to glide from that higher position, which can also be a downside - but either way, I think it would be inconsistent with the rules established so far.

If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.

Yes, I agree with both.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge, this is one of the key differences in L2 between a regular Climber and a Rock Climber: Rock Climbers stick to a wall when jumping at them, regular Climbers won't. Then again, I think it's also just Rock Climbers that can transition from Climber to Shimmier - and that is a behaviour we've transferred to regular Climbers, because Rock Climbers would be largely redundant in NeoLemmix. The only thing they can do that Climbers can't is climbing up slopes, but that is something Shimmiers can do as well - they just look into the opposite direction while doing it. That's not sufficient to justify the introduction of Rock Climbers, I think we all agree on that.

Hence, if the direct transition from Climber to Shimmier has already been enabled for regular Climbers (even against L2 tradition), then the direct transition from Jumper to Climber should also be made possible. This would be another transfer of Rock Climber behaviour to regular Climbers in NeoLemmix, and thus consistent with the most recent rules for that skill.

The Jumper can also cancel pretty much any other skill in L2 - except for Blockers. This arguably strongest feature would remain saved for Walkers (which don't exist in L2 anyway). So jumping off a wall in the opposite direction that the Climber is facing in (because it immediately bumps into terrain and therefore gets "reflected" into the opposite direction) is what I would intuitively expect.

If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.

I also agree with this one. Shimmiers in L2 actually jump diagonally, and this behaviour has mainly been changed in NeoLemmix to prevent them from being too easily abused as Jumpers (before the Jumper is actually even implemented! ) I'm happy about this change, because otherwise, one could question the validity of introducing the Jumper in the first place. But now that it is about to be introduced, I think it should be possible to recreate this L2 behaviour by combining the two skills.

Currently, it can be pretty difficult for a Shimmier to reach a ceiling that goes across a gap if whatever platform he's standing on ends right where the ceiling above starts. In other words: Just jumping up vertically won't get him there. In L2, such ceilings are no problem for the diagonally-jumping Shimmiers, so having Jumpers for this type of situation, which is way more common than you might think (i.e. anything but an edge case ), would certainly be helpful.

[IchoTolot]

I would support the 36 pixel wigth and 16 pixel high trajectory.

I would make sure the jumping on a quite common 16 pixel high block case is not very precise though ---> maybe 18 pixel high

[namida]

I would support the 36 pixel wigth and 16 pixel high trajectory.

I would make sure the jumping on a quite common 16 pixel high block case is not very precise though ---> maybe 18 pixel high

18 is the current proposal...

[WillLem]

An idea that occured to me this morning: the jumper skill could make use of the now redundant "boing" exit sound!

[namida]

In L2, such ceilings are no problem for the diagonally-jumping Shimmiers, so having Jumpers for this type of situation, which is way more common than you might think (i.e. anything but an edge case ), would certainly be helpful.

It's an edge case relative to the main details of Jumper behaviour. It's absolutely important to consider - I just didn't think it was time to start considering it yet at that point.

With that being said, it doesn't sound like there's any objections to the proposed main behaviour, so let's start considering these cases.

I have some questions about proposed skill interactions:

Would a glider glide at the top of the jump arc, or after the full jump is complete? I'd suggest beginning the glide at the top of the jump.

If a climber jumps into a wall, would it start climbing, or simply fall? Can a climber jump away from a wall? My suggestion would be yes for both cases.

If a jumper hits the ceiling, would it be possible to transition to a shimmier? I think this would make sense.

Regarding the Glider - I'm leaning towards that he should become a glider at the end of the arc. However, I also feel this should be a direct Jumper->Glider transition, without the few frames as a Faller inbetween.

Counter-point: This would also imply a floater should go straight to floating at the end of the jump. There is some leeway here; Floaters and Gliders aren't always identical outside of trajectory, for example, compare how long it takes them to transition from faller. But my logic here is - the jumper would "know" he's going to need to float/glide, so he can be ready to do so, rather than needing to do so while falling. (Actually, an extension of this logic fits a situation of "glider does immediately, floater falls first" - one could argue that the glider tries to start gliding ASAP because he wants to cross horizontal distance. On the other hand, the Floater has no reason to start floating until he feels the fall is getting a bit on the long side, and that could be equally true for falling after a jump.)

Regarding the Climber - I'm open to the behaviour of the jumper grabbing the wall and climbing it. However, I wonder - if that behaviour is implemented, should this mean that if a non-climber Jumper hits a wall, he turns around before falling? My reasoning here is - if the climber would climb the wall, this means the jumper has interacted with the wall, not merely stopped jumping due to it. The normal interaction with a wall in a situation where it can't be climbed / ascended, would be to turn around.

I'm a bit less sure about jumping away from a wall. I'm open to it, but I'm not sure that I'm in favor of it. I'd argue that if Climber->Jumper is valid, a similar case could be made for Climber -> (any destructive skill except Digger), which we don't currently allow. Counter-point: We do allow Climber -> Shimmier, and the Shimmier is closer to the Jumper than these other cases are. However, counter-counter-point: A climber can't do the "jump" part of a Shimmier. He must be exactly below the ceiling, so he can immediately grab onto it.

Regarding the Shimmier - I'd say for consistency with Climber, we should allow this. I don't feel too strongly about this though, so if most people would prefer this wasn't possible, I'm okay with that. If it is allowed, I feel it should be the same as the Climber->Shimmier, ie: the Jumper must be able to make an immediate grab, there's no Reacher phase.


Some other edge cases I thought of:

Jumper -> Walker? - Should it be possible to cancel a Jumper (who would then immediately fall) by using a Walker? My instinctive reaction is "no", but allowing this would be more consistent with Shimmier. On the other hand, one could argue that if Jumpers could do this, Gliders should be able to as well (and they cannot). Real-world physics would suggest "don't allow it". Videogame physics would suggest "depends which videogame you ask".

Swimmer -> Jumper? - I'm very strongly on the "no" side of this one, but felt it should be raised just in case.

Jumper -> Bomber / Stoner - Not a question of "should we allow this?", as there's no reason not to, but rather "should it be OhNo or instant?" - I'm very much on the "instant" side.

[DireKrow]

I'm not keen on a jumper causing a glider to glide without any faller frames, because it creates an inconsistency compared to how that skill works in every other situation. I'm always in favor of skill-skill interactions being a result of their individual mechanics being combined by the player in some way, rather than a specially hard-coded interaction. Especially when there's no way to know about it unless you're told about it or just happen to try it. That isn't the case with any other techniques in the game - you could theoretically piece any of them together by observing how the individual skills work in isolation.

Similarly, a climber being able to grab a wall straight from a jump would raise the question of why can't glider-climbers that glide into a wall grab onto it?

[Dullstar]

Namida's point regarding floaters made me think of something additional: would the fall distance for the purposes of splatting be measured from the top of the jump, or the end up the jump? I'd say the top would make sense; ignoring what's happening under the hood and just using intuition, the jumper is falling from the moment it's no longer going up (well, besides the instant where it has zero velocity). On the other hand, that would make the splat ruler harder to use with jumpers.

I would definitely say instant for bombers/stoners. It would make this skill combination more useful since you could use it to gain height with a lemming before it uses the skill. An OhNoer transition would basically only be able to explode on the ground, making the combination near useless outside of some finicky garbage involving pits.

As for Climber -> Jumper: I would like to elaborate on why I like this idea and don't feel it is problematic when considering skill combinations that are disallowed. It would be pretty difficult to operate digging/construction tools without falling off of the wall, so we don't allow it. Jumping is actually not all that difficult to do while climbing. The hard part is continuing after a jump and not just falling, but it's certainly doable, and you don't have to be a top-tier rock climber to do it.

Swimmer -> Jumper: Unrealistic and I doubt it would have much puzzle or movement potential.

Jumper -> Walker: I don't think it's inconsistent with the shimmier to disallow walker cancellation (unless you can use a walker to cancel an shimmier that's still trying to grab the ceiling? Though I doubt that would be very useful). Intuitively, it's easy for a shimmier to stop - all it has to do is let go. How does a jumper stop?

[WillLem]

Jumper->Glider: at first I agreed with DireKrow that in all other cases a Glider starts after a fall. But then I also agree that both the Jumper and Glider skill are "ready for action" as apposed to, say, the more reactive Floater. This being the case though, why don't Gliders immediately glide in all other cases?

Jumpers->Climbers: again, at first I agreed with DireKrow - if a Jumper can do it, why not a Glider? But then I thought - the Glider is holding onto the gliding frame with their hands, whereas a Jumper is ready for action and could grab onto a wall...

Climbers being able to jump away from a wall is a great idea, definitely should be implemented! Very Mario. I can see the possibilities for making very action-based levels.

Jumpers->Shimmiers: an obvious one really, as the "reacher" phase of the Shimmier skill is, essentially, a short vertical jumper.

Jumpers->Bombers: another vote for this being instant (as with fallers).

Jumper->Walker: this could maybe be used to shorten a jump. Let's say, for example, the Jumper has 3 'stages' - ascension, top of the arc where they're airborne, and then descension. Each phase would form part of a parabolic arc. Applying the walker skill could make the animation transition straight to the descension stage from wherever the Jumper is. If the Jumper has already started to descend, the Jump would essentially become a double-jump because the descension stage would be activated again.

Better still, the Walker could be used to make the Lemming do some sort of acrobatic twist in midair which extends the jump range. There are all sorts of possibilities here. As others have said though, the Jumper simply falling immediately from wherever it is in the jump stage is something I'm definitely not in favour of; is makes very little sense even in videogame logic.

Swimmer->Jumper: again, I'm thinking that the Jumper skill in water could make the Lemming perform a twist in the water which would turn them around, or maybe accelerate them forward. It could have some function, I guess is what I'm saying. Jumping out of the water seems a bit silly unless they suddenly get a Dolphin suit.

Basically, I'm generally in favour of thinking real-world physics, as Lemmings usually adheres to this. I do like the occasional videogame logic application of a skill, though, and there are possibilities here for the Jumper to become quite a useful modifier for the other skills beyond simply skill-cancelling.

[namida]

Jumper->Walker: this could maybe be used to shorten a jump. Let's say, for example, the Jumper has 3 'stages' - ascension, top of the arc where they're airborne, and then descension. Each phase would form part of a parabolic arc. Applying the walker skill could make the animation transition straight to the descension stage from wherever the Jumper is. If the Jumper has already started to descend, the Jump would essentially become a double-jump because the descension stage would be activated again.

Better still, the Walker could be used to make the Lemming do some sort of acrobatic twist in midair which extends the jump range. There are all sorts of possibilities here. As others have said though, the Jumper simply falling immediately from wherever it is in the jump stage is something I'm definitely not in favour of; is makes very little sense even in videogame logic.

Swimmer->Jumper: again, I'm thinking that the Jumper skill in water could make the Lemming perform a twist in the water which would turn them around, or maybe accelerate them forward. It could have some function, I guess is what I'm saying. Jumping out of the water seems a bit silly unless they suddenly get a Dolphin suit.

I'm ruling out both of these proposals right now. The walker has two functions: "Cancel a skill; or turn around a lemming that's already just walking". It is not going to do anything other than those to a Jumper (and the Jumper isn't "just walking", so it won't turn him around either - it'll either cancel the jump, or not be an accepted assignment). Likewise, there's no reason whatsoever to expect such a case from a Swimmer->Jumper combo; it comes down to either "assigning a Jumper to a Swimmer makes him jump as normal", or else "you can't assign a Jumper to a Swimmer".

I'll look at the rest of the feedback (from everyone) a bit later and see if there's anything so far that most people are in agreement about. (My instinctive reaction is to say "yes, they were" about some things, but I'd rather go through and properly check that this really is the case - but I can't be bothered right now.)

[Proxima]

My thoughts on all the edge cases and interactions. I'll start with the ones I think are most clear-cut, and move on to ones where I haven't made up my mind....

Jumper -> Bomber/Stoner: Definitely instant. At the moment, bombers are instant if they are in mid-air (fallers, floaters/gliders, shimmiers), so there is a straightforward consistency argument for making jumpers bomb instantly.

Non-climber Jumper hitting a wall: Fall facing the other way. As namida said, this is a normal way for a lemming to interact with a wall in front of them, and there's a lot of potential for situations where it's hard to turn a lemming around and the architect doesn't want to give a builder or walker because of backroutes, or situations where the player just has to decide which skill is least needed elsewhere. (Indeed, I remember using this to solve a Lemmings 2 level on one of the very few times I've played that game )

Swimmer -> Jumper: Forbid assignment. Jumping out of the water is unrealistic, but making the skill do something completely different, as WillLem suggested, would be a weird edge case where a skill has two unrelated effects in different circumstances. These are hard for new players to discover and internalise, and should be avoided where possible. [EDIT: Namida posted with basically the same response while I was typing this.]

Jumper -> Walker: Forbid assignment.

Jumper -> Glider: Start gliding from the top of the jump. The only reason a glider normally has to go through the falling animation before starting to glide is that it takes time to pull the glider out; the start of a jump would also give the lemming time to do this. This would make the jumper/glider combination more powerful, and there is a lot of potential in making the combination of two skills able to access places neither skill can alone. (This is not like the above two cases -- in this case each skill is doing what it normally does, we are just considering how they combine.)

To respond to Strato, this is not inconsistent because there is currently no other skill that jumps. Sure, we can look at the behaviour of a lemming walking off an edge to make comparisons -- such as my point above that a mid-air jumper should explode instantly -- but there are going to be differences as well as similarities. Jumping is jumping; falling is falling.

Regardless of what decision is made here, I would urge that if the lemming is already a glider, then the jumper skill shadow should show the full jump + glide trajectory.

Jumper -> Climber: Could go either way on this one. It works in Lix and has a lot of puzzle potential and I generally enjoy it. But there could also be a lot of puzzle potential in forbidding it, so that the player has to do more work to get into a position to climb. Forbidding it would provide a way for a climber lemming to turn, which is often hard; the flip side is that allowing jumper -> climber would mean the player has to work to find a way for the climber to turn.

Climber -> Jumper (wall jump): This is intriguing because Lix never had this, so it would be distinctly new to Lemmings-like games (although familiar from many platformers, of course). However, if it ends up forbidden, you can still do a climb-bomber to make terrain for a later climber to jump from -- and having to weigh in the cost of the extra skill usage and lost lemming has puzzle potential in itself. I would strongly urge that we consider this one purely on the basis of whether we prefer allowing or forbidding it as a puzzle element and not for "consistency"; no other skill jumps; there is no reason at the moment why a new player would expect this to go one way or the other.

[namida]

To respond to Strato, this is not inconsistent because there is currently no other skill that jumps. Sure, we can look at the behaviour of a lemming walking off an edge to make comparisons -- such as my point above that a mid-air jumper should explode instantly -- but there are going to be differences as well as similarities. Jumping is jumping; falling is falling.

The Shimmier's "reacher" phase, which after a failed reach, the reacher turns to a faller from which he transitions at the normal time to Glider (this can still be useful to gain extra height, of course). However, there's valid grounds to argue for a difference here: The Reacher expects to find terrain to cling onto and shimmy across (and is indeed trying to grab onto it). The Jumper is not; he's jumping and could either land or fall at the end, and thus it could be expected he'd "get ready" to glide.

[Strato Incendus]

I was really thinking in "categories" in terms of "what do I see when I hover the cursor over the lemming?" While he is on the parabolic curve of the Jumper's trajectory, I'd expect to read "Jumper", not "Faller". When I assign a Jumper at the edge of a cliff, the label "Faller" would be applied to that lemming as soon as the parabolic trajectory is completed, when the animation also switches back to the Faller sprite. Since Fallers can only fall vertically, it would be weird to consider a Jumper on his way down, meaning the downward slope of the curve, a "Faller" already. And only Fallers can get out their Glider/Floater parachutes.

Although, as I said, I do agree that it would be very useful to have a Jumper start gliding on an updraft that is at the same level as the ground the lemming is walking on.

How does this work in L2? The L2 equivalent of the Glider would be the Hang Glider, in my book. I guess it is possible to assign a Hang Glider to a Jumper in mid-air? The only difference is that there are no updrafts in L2, only that obnoxious fanning tool. So you probably won't have time to switch to the fanning tool and hold it beneath the Hang Glider after that initial jump before the lemming hits the ground again.

[Proxima]

And only Fallers can get out their Glider/Floater parachutes.

Only Fallers can at the moment. That says nothing about whether a Jumper should be able to or not. And your entire argument is based on that flimsy piece of straw.

[ccexplore]

How does this work in L2? The L2 equivalent of the Glider would be the Hang Glider, in my book. I guess it is possible to assign a Hang Glider to a Jumper in mid-air?

No, I tested it, L2 does not allow assigning hang glider to basically any mid-air lemmings, be it from jumping, falling or whatever else can take the lemming off the ground.  The L2 hang glider starts with a small, mostly vertical jump when assigned.  Given that, it rather makes sense that the assignment would be prohibited if the lemming wasn't already on the ground.

Of course, it's still very different from NeoLemmix's glider.  For one thing, NeoLemmix glider is designed as a permanent skill, which are expected to be assignable to the lemming at basically any time.  So from that alone, you should certainly be able to assign glider to a mid-air jumper.  Of course, when exactly does the glider movements actually take effect in this case is a whole other matter.

------

Finally for reference, I attached some screenshots showing the trajectory of the L2 jumper, in particular the height and width of the arc.  I purposely had left the screenshots unscaled so it's easier to measure the exact number of pixels; you probably want to use a 200% or 400% zoom when working with the images.

[IchoTolot]

I agree with Proxima for the most parts:

Jumper -> Bomber/Stoner: Definitely instant. At the moment, bombers are instant if they are in mid-air (fallers, floaters/gliders, shimmiers), so there is a straightforward consistency argument for making jumpers bomb instantly.

Swimmer -> Jumper: Forbid assignment. Jumping out of the water is unrealistic, but making the skill do something completely different, as WillLem suggested, would be a weird edge case where a skill has two unrelated effects in different circumstances. These are hard for new players to discover and internalise, and should be avoided where possible. [EDIT: Namida posted with basically the same response while I was typing this.]

Jumper -> Walker: Forbid assignment.

Jumper -> Glider: Start gliding from the top of the jump. The only reason a glider normally has to go through the falling animation before starting to glide is that it takes time to pull the glider out; the start of a jump would also give the lemming time to do this. This would make the jumper/glider combination more powerful, and there is a lot of potential in making the combination of two skills able to access places neither skill can alone. (This is not like the above two cases -- in this case each skill is doing what it normally does, we are just considering how they combine.)

For the other cases:

Non-climber Jumper hitting a wall:

I would say only turn after landing and walking against it, but not on the jumper hitting it. It feels weird to me that after faceplanting into a wall you turn your back against it. He did not either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6j274eePZw      He just fell to the ground. As Lemmings are more resiliant they simply land walk gently into it this time and turn normally.

Jumper -> Climber:

I would vote for the lix method here. Jumping against and climbing up the wall just feel statisfies and is proven to result in quite a few good levels.

Climber -> Jumper (wall jump):

My instinct would say no here, as this just feel very weird to me. Walkers don't work on climbers as well.

[namida]

Okay so, after reading and considering responses, I'm going to make my decisions on a few of these now. Some will remain open.

Jumper -> Glider This one will remain open. I'm not completely convinced either way yet. I may need to implement and try out both options re: when the jumper starts gliding.

Splat distance This was a good point - it makes logical sense to count from the top of the jump, but it's much more practical for the player if it counts from the end of the jump. So this needs more consideration.

Jumper -> Hitting wall There are some good points for that the lemming should turn around and fall. But I'm not 100% convinced.

Climber -> Jumper (Wall-jumping) I'm leaning towards allowing this, but again, not completely convinced.


Jumper -> Climber (Jump onto a wall and climb it) Sounds to me like Lix has shown Jumper->Climber to be a worthwhile feature, so let's go for it.

Jumper -> Shimmier Surprisingly little input on this, so I'll go with my original thought (allow it). To be clear - this wouldn't be a doublejump; it would be like the Climber->Shimmier case, in that the jumper must already be near a ceiling to receive the assignment.

Jumper -> Walker Not allowed.

Swimmer -> Jumper Not allowed.

Jumper -> Bomber / Stoner Instant explosion.

[namida]

This is obviously a very early, rough implementation but...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX0b-8DQitk

(Since this, I've implemented a foot check, though still no head check or wall check. EDIT: Now it has a wall check too, including for the jumper->climber transition.)

EDIT: And another one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc9TA_7SOh8

Read after watching (click to show/hide)

Please note this does NOT confirm the Climber -> Jumper will definitely happen. It wasn't much work to implement it, so I didn't mind doing it for now with the possibility of it being reverted later.

[WillLem]

Some penny-thoughts which may or may not help with decision making on the undecided stuff:

Jumper -> Glider This one will remain open. I'm not completely convinced either way yet. I may need to implement and try out both options re: when the jumper starts gliding.

I was thinking about this earlier... if the glider has already been assigned before the jump, then it makes sense for the jumper to start transitioning to a glider at the top of the jump arc, as the lem would be ready to become a glider. If the glider is assigned during a jump, then normal fall-then-glide physics ought to apply.

Jumper -> Hitting wall There are some good points for that the lemming should turn around and fall. But I'm not 100% convinced.

If the lem falls without turning, there are options to then assign any skill that involves interaction with a wall: e.g. climbing, bashing, etc. If they turn around before falling, it limits the options to simply walking away from the wall. If a player wants to be facing the wall after a jump, they then have to assign a walker (and the level designer has to make sure they include an extra walker for this purpose) whereas if the player/level designer wants the lem to turn around, they simply wait until they have fallen and then walked into the wall. For this reason, I would add 1 vote for falling first then turning. EDIT: there could even be a fun animation of them sliding down the wall: consider this an offer to create such an animation, if needed.

Climber -> Jumper (Wall-jumping) I'm leaning towards allowing this, but again, not completely convinced.

I'm glad you're leaning towards this. If there are any of these options I feel most strongly about, it's this one: wall jumping would be a great feature to implement. It would open up a lot of possibilities for both gameplay and level design. Definitely, definitely do this one! Also: if there needs to be a more convincing argument other than "it would be cool", I would also point towards it being a fairly reasonable real-world-physics case: climbers are physically able to leap away from a wall.

Hope these comments help.

[ccexplore]

I was thinking about this earlier... if the glider has already been assigned before the jump, then it makes sense for the jumper to start transitioning to a glider at the top of the jump arc, as the lem would be ready to become a glider. If the glider is assigned during a jump, then normal fall-then-glide physics ought to apply.

This feels a little unusual, in that I don't remember any other permanent skills producing different behaviors based on the detailed timing specifics of when the skill is assigned relative to the actions of another skill being carried out.  Ultimately if there is clear advantage in terms of gameplay or level design then fine, special case, but otherwise I would advise not to introduce such extra complexities into the skill.

At the moment I have no preference either way.  There's only so far one can go with comparing to real-life physics, since there are already plenty of movements in Lemmings that are decided not like real-life physics (can you squeeze through a 1-pixel gap or tunnel? ).  I mean, if you really want to talk about real-life physics, the jumper wouldn't just fall straight down at the end, and a glider who's jumping would probably have a different jump trajectory arc altogether compared to a regular jumper, due to presumed extra air resistance from their gliding position and/or gear.

[namida]

I was thinking about this earlier... if the glider has already been assigned before the jump, then it makes sense for the jumper to start transitioning to a glider at the top of the jump arc, as the lem would be ready to become a glider. If the glider is assigned during a jump, then normal fall-then-glide physics ought to apply.

Faller behaviour: If the glider / floater is assigned to a faller, before the point at which the faller would begin gliding / floating, the faller transitions at the normal time. If it's assigned after that point, the lemming transitions immediately when the skill is assigned.

If the glider activates mid-jump, then I would expect the same rule to apply here - transition at the normal time if assigned before the gliding point, or immediately if assigned after the gliding point. Of course, this is irrelevant if the glider activates at the end of the jump.

[namida]

On the "jumper hits wall" scenario - I do get the feeling many people are only considering the case in the left in the attached pic. However, the case on the right is likely where the difference could lead to some interesting situations - so don't forget to consider that too.

[WillLem]

On the "jumper hits wall" scenario - I do get the feeling many people are only considering the case in the left in the attached pic. However, the case on the right is likely where the difference could lead to some interesting situations - so don't forget to consider that too.

The scenario on the left produces these two differences:

A: Jumper hits the wall, turns, lands, then walks away from the wall.
 i) Direction-wise, no difference has occurred here than if the lem had just walked into the wall without jumping.
 ii) If there was a pickup skill at jump height, then the jump would be useful.
iii) There is no further opportunity to interact with the wall.
 iv) If no further action takes place, the end result is that the lem walks away from the wall.

B: Jumper hits the wall, slides down, then walks towards the wall for e.g. 1 frame before turning around.
 i) Direction-wise, no difference has occurred here than if the lem had just walked into the wall without jumping.
 ii) If there was a pickup skill at jump height, then the jump would be useful.
iii) The lem has a 1-frame opportunity to further interact with the wall, e.g. by climbing, bashing, etc.
 iv) If no further action takes place, the end result is that the lem walks away from the wall.

The scenario on the right produces these two differences:

A: Jumper hits the wall, turns, lands, then walks away from the wall.
i) The lem walks back the way it came, meaning that the jumper has ultimately functioned in place of a walker
 ii) A walker/other skills would be required to turn the lem around if needs be.
 iii) If there was a pickup skill at jump height, then the jump would be useful.
iv) If no further action takes place, the end result is that the lem walks back the way it came.

B: Jumper hits the wall, slides down, then walks forwards (underneath the wall).
i) The lem continues to walk forwards.
 ii) A walker/other skills would be required to turn the lem around if needs be.
 iii) If there was a pickup skill at jump height, then the jump would be useful.
iv) If no further action takes place, the end result is that the lem continues to walk forwards.

Therefore, the second scenario does indeed produce more differences. However, whether one is more preferable than the other depends entirely on the layout of the rest of the level; they do not carry any particular advantages either way in and of themselves.

The first scenario, however, produces a difference which does carry a specific advantage: i.e. the opportunity to further interact with the wall.

[namida]

Another special case to consider: Jumping while in an updraft.

Updrafts are of course most notable for their effects on gliders, but they do make fallers and floaters fall more slowly too. Should they also have an effect on Jumpers? I'm leaning towards yes - perhaps on the order of gaining one extra pixel of height (or as applicable, losing one less) per frame. This is fairly comparable to the effects it has on floaters / fallers.

[Proxima]

Therefore, the second scenario does indeed produce more differences. However, whether one is more preferable than the other depends entirely on the layout of the rest of the level; they do not carry any particular advantages either way in and of themselves.

The first scenario, however, produces a difference which does carry a specific advantage: i.e. the opportunity to further interact with the wall.

As I said earlier, an advantage to the player may be a disadvantage to the level designer, and vice versa. Also, in the case where the lemming simply lands at the base of the same wall, the player could have gained the same advantage (being able to interact with the wall) by not jumping (or jumping from further back and not hitting the wall, in the case where the jump was necessary to collect a mid-air pick-up skill). Finally, any advantage that depends on gaining a 1-frame window adds to fiddly execution, which it's good to avoid where possible.

The case where walking straight forward would go under the wall is much more interesting, and the player does gain an advantage here: the ability to choose whether the lemming turns around (by jumping) or does not (by not jumping).

Regarding updrafts, my inclination is to say "no" for simplicity, but the altered trajectory would be visible with the skill shadow, so I don't strongly object to it.

[IchoTolot]

The jumper hits wall and turns mid-air case has one inconsistency with other skills though:

Shimmiers also do not turn mid-air when shimming against a wall. They fall down first and then the possible turning happens. I do think we should not make this case inconsistent, as both lems go face first into a wall and should react the same to not confuse players, regardless if the other options producess more level ideas or gets a few more votes.

EDIT: For the climber -> jumper case, after seing it in action I tend a bit more to the allow side now. The parkour options are quite large, even though the combination can be very overpowered. So I slightly tend towards yes there now.

[NieSch]

For the climber -> jumper case, after seing it in action I tend a bit more to the allow side now. The parkour options are quite large, even though the combination can be very overpowered. So I slightly tend towards yes there now.

Yeah, this jumping/climbing "parkour" lemming looks awesome! (It must be great to have some levels where the parkour lemming jumps around like a madman to save the crowd in time.)

[ccexplore]

Shimmiers also do not turn mid-air when shimming against a wall.

But if I recall correctly and understand your case above correctly, NeoLemmix shimmiers only hop up strictly vertically to try to grab onto ceiling.  As such, even if it was standing right next to wall when assigned shimmier, strictly speaking the lemming's movement never try to put it any closer to the wall.  The shimmier lemming hops up in parallel to the wall surface and basically could care less whether there's a wall there or not.

Whereas the jumper does have a horizontal component of movement, so there is truly a collision happening with the wall, the result/effects of which is what we want to decide.

[Proxima]

I assume Icho is talking about when the shimmier bumps a wall ahead of them during shimmying, not the initial reaching phase.

Even so, I think there is an argument why it's not "inconsistent" (I am getting to despise that word!) to have the jumper turn. The shimmier's purpose is to shimmy along a ceiling until it stops, then fall. Hitting something ahead of them is one of two ways the end of a shimmyable ceiling might be marked (the other being a sudden rise). So the lemming would be prepared to fall down at that point. The jumper, by contrast, intends to complete the arc of their jump; hitting terrain is a sudden interruption.

[Strato Incendus]

Again: How does this work in Lemmings 2: The Tribes and in Lix? Bouncing off the wall into the opposite direction always seemed like the most intuitive thing for me. So I'm pretty sure I've seen this before.

Especially in the case on the right of namida's picture, this would allow to turn around a single lemming by having him jump and turn, while everyone else slips through the gap and continues walking to the right.

The consistency here would be - as I've described it in the pre-level text of the very first level in Lemmings World Tour - "Whenever a lemming performs a skill and runs into terrain that skill cannot affect, the lemming will turn around."

--> constructive skills, when performed into terrain of any type, cause the lemming to turn
--> destructive skills can affect regular terrain, but when they hit steel, i.e. terrain they can't affect, the lemming will turn around (exception: Digger)
--> therefore: when the Jumper hits terrain while he is jumping, he should turn around as well

Regarding the Shimmier, I would agree with previous posts that running into a wall is one of the intended ways of stopping a Shimmier, whereas the Jumper is supposed to carry out the full arc of its motion.

[Proxima]

In L2, I believe the jumper turns. I never owned the game and only occasionally played it when visiting friends, so I don't have very clear memories here, but as I said, I am pretty sure I had the insight of using this behaviour to solve a level we were stuck on (it may have been Egyptian 9), so it would surprise me if I was completely wrong about that.

Lix has tumbler behaviour, so the jumper will actually bounce off the wall (and will reverse her facing direction).

[Strato Incendus]

...and even though we technically won't have tumbler physics in NeoLemmix, to my understanding, the engine still needs to be able to calculate a Jumper suddenly completing his jump into the opposite direction - if you clone the Jumper mid-jump. So I guess for this particular example, that wouldn't make too much of a difference, coding-wise.

This raises another interesting question, though:

What happens when you assign a Walker to a Jumper?
Does he stop jumping and fall straight down again?
Does he turn around in the middle of the jump, like a Cloner, just without the original continuing to move in the former direction?

[WillLem]

Constructive and destructive skills turn around upon hitting a wall, sure: but the Jumper is not a constructive or destructive skill. In fact, it's far more comparable to the shimmier (which, as Icho has pointed out, does not turn around).

To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!

This being the case, why would they then turn around upon hitting the wall? It make far more sense to me that they would grab onto the wall and slide down it; it could even be that climbers could be assigned at this point, and the lem starts climbing.

Or, maybe they bounce off the wall: but they still wouldn't necessarily be facing the opposite direction...

[Strato Incendus]

It make far more sense to me that they would grab onto the wall and slide down it; it could even be that climbers could be assigned at this point, and the lem starts climbing.

That would effectively introduce yet another L2 skill, the Slider. By itself, this would run counter to my expectations, though, because no other lemming falling 1 pixel next to a wall slides down on it; he just becomes a regular Faller.

Or, maybe they bounce off the wall: but they still wouldn't necessarily be facing the opposite direction...

I think this would actually be more difficult to sprite than if the lemming were to face the opposite direction? Meaning, according to your suggestion, the trajectory of the arc of the jump would be reflected by the wall, but the lemming sprite itself wouldn't. If the lemming bounces off the wall AND faces the opposite direction, in contrast, you can simply replace the rightward sprite with the leftward sprite, or vice versa. You don't need further "hybrid" sprites where the lemming "moves to the left, but looks to the right", or "moves to the right, but looks to the left".

[namida]

This raises another interesting question, though:

What happens when you assign a Walker to a Jumper?
Does he stop jumping and fall straight down again?
Does he turn around in the middle of the jump, like a Cloner, just without the original continuing to move in the former direction?

You cannot assign a walker to a jumper. This has already been discussed, and the preference seems to be for "don't allow it". Had it been allowed, the behaviour would've been consistent with any other case of assigning a walker to a lemming who isn't currently walking - the skill is cancelled and the lemming reverts to a walker or faller as appropriate.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, I must have overread that. But indeed, this seems like the easiest and most straightforward solution.

[Proxima]

To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!

In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?

[Strato Incendus]

To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!

In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?

Thanks, Proxima ! No better way of pointing out the flaws in that logic!

Thinking of ways lemmings can hurt themselves by doing stupid things, though - that would almost suggest a Jumper should splat on a wall when bumping against it before completing the arc of his curve . I know that's what can happen with the catapults in Lemmings 3D: There's one level (I think "Shadow Maze"?) where the catapult actually hurls the lemmings against a block, causing them to splat - and to prevent that, you have to bomb that piece of terrain away.

(Just to be clear: I'm not suggesting this is what should actually happen with Jumpers in NeoLemmix - it's just what this logic would imply... Especially considering the video IchoTolot linked to, of a guy jumping against a wall.)

[WillLem]

It make far more sense to me that they would grab onto the wall and slide down it; it could even be that climbers could be assigned at this point, and the lem starts climbing.

That would effectively introduce yet another L2 skill, the Slider. By itself, this would run counter to my expectations, though, because no other lemming falling 1 pixel next to a wall slides down on it; he just becomes a regular Faller.

As I imagine it, the Slider would be a temporary state as a result of having jumped towards the wall, not a skill. Similar to the "Reacher" state of the Shimmier skill, or the "Shrugger" state of any building skill.

No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.

To take this further to Proxima's point, the lem being "ready" to stop could also apply to a Jumper: if they're jumping towards a wall, they can surely see the wall they're about to hit!

In the same way that lemmings can see a fire pit in front of them and avoid walking into it?

Thanks, Proxima ! No better way of pointing out the flaws in that logic!

Actually, it's a slightly different situation: a Lemming walking towards fire could arguably be totally innocent as to what the fire is, and not be aware that it will kill them.

Also, Walkers and other skills can be assigned to make the Lemming avoid the fire. A Lemming that has jumped towards a wall must impact with the wall (it has already been discussed that no skill will cancel a Jumper mid-jump), and therefore interact with it (whether by sliding down it, bouncing off it, etc).

[namida]

I know that's what can happen with the catapults in Lemmings 3D: There's one level (I think "Shadow Maze"?) where the catapult actually hurls the lemmings against a block, causing them to splat - and to prevent that, you have to bomb that piece of terrain away.

Nope, Shadow Maze doesn't contain springs - it's the one with the three layers of maze-like block layouts, where each layer is slightly different to the one above it. You're thinking of Final Maze, the last level in the game, which does indeed have this setup - but this level is backroutable as hell so while most players probably spotted the spring that does this, I suspect few actually realise the block can be removed to let lemmings pass - though at least one solution that does involve removing the block to let lemmings pass exists.

No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.

Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the correction, namida! I already figured you would know the L3D levels by heart, at latest since you've created the editor.

No other Lemming that falls next to a wall has been jumping towards it: the trajectory of a jump combined with the impact of hitting the wall is not the same as a Lemming falling next to a wall. All other skills involve the Lemming hitting the wall slowly, i.e. at walking, building, swimming, or shimmying pace. Jumping pace is much faster and, to my mind, requires some interaction with the wall.

Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).

Thanks, that was also my instant reaction to this claim.

Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall. Which, as it currently stands, is also in line with what the majority seems to favour...

[Proxima]

Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall. Which, as it currently stands, is also in line with what the majority seems to favour...

No, the majority favour the jumper turning round, but we haven't discussed or voted on whether the jumper should reflect its trajectory, or just fall straight down.

[Strato Incendus]

My bad, thanks for clarifying this, Proxima!

Maybe this should be the crucial difference then, between jumping against a regular wall and jumping into the trigger area of a Blocker or one-way field?

Blockers and one-way fields reflect the trajectories of every skill that runs into them, whereas walls and unaffectable terrain usually lead to the lemming turning around, but cancelling the skill in the process (like a "double-Walker" assignment, so to say ).

If a level designer then needs a certain wall to be able to reflect a Jumper's trajectory so that the lemming can do "Spider-Man jumps" from one wall to another, the level creator could simply put one-way fields on top of that wall, and those would cause the Jumper to behave in such a way. A wall not covered by one-way fields, in contrast, would then only result in turning the Jumper around before falling, but the fall would be a regular Faller motion, i.e. straight downward.

[namida]

While not a huge majority, it does seem the preference leans slightly towards that he should turn around, so - absent any very convincing argument that he shouldn't, it looks like that's what will happen.

Regarding whether he bounces off and continues jumping or not - I never seriously envisioned that he would. Currently, we don't have any case where an assigned skill turns around upon hitting a wall. On the other hand, we do have such cases for permanent skills - Glider and Swimmer both can do this - but obviously, Jumper is not a permanent skill, therefore, my thought would be it shouldn't. I've put up a poll for this now.

[WillLem]

I voted for maintain trajectory: this would satisfy the "jumper ought to interact with the wall in some way" idea, at least.

Gliders...? Not quite as fast as Jumping, but faster than any of the examples given there (especially when thinking in terms of realistic physics rather than game physics).

Since however this emphasises that the Glider is currently the only skill interacting with walls at supposedly high speeds, and given that the Glider bounces off of them, this would make an even stronger case for the Jumper's trajectory to be reflected when hitting a wall.

And yes, Gliders! These guys don't just fall: they bounce off and continue. Thanks for the reminder, I kinda wish I'd remembered about this when I was struggling to make my point the other day.

[Proxima]

In Lix, a jumper hitting a wall bounces off it, whether she hits it on the upward or downward part of her arc, so you can have a look at Lix if you want to see this in action. Most of the time this won't make a huge impact on whether a solution concept can be made to work, but one case where it does make a noticeable difference is that if the lemming does bounce during his upward motion, this could be exploited to make him land on a ledge directly above his starting-point.

My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix. Lemmings bouncing off a wall doesn't really sit right with me, whereas I completely accept it for lix -- but that's a different game.

[IchoTolot]

My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix. Lemmings bouncing off a wall doesn't really sit right with me, whereas I completely accept it for lix -- but that's a different game.

I agree here.

After hitting a wall mid flight it just makes sense that he simply falls after the crash.

The glider is not a very good comparison in my opinion as he slowly glides into a wall instead of violently crashing into it.

[WillLem]

After hitting a wall mid flight it just makes sense that he simply falls after the crash.

The glider is not a very good comparison in my opinion as he slowly glides into a wall instead of violently crashing into it.

What if he's a particularly acrobatic lemming? He wouldn't fall: he'd likely push himself away or slide down the wall. I agree that the Glider isn't really a good comparison; in fact, my point all along has been that the jumper skill isn't really comparable with any of the other skills when it comes to jumping towards a wall.

Anyway, decision seems to have been made now that the lem will turn. At this point, although I'd like to see the Jumper respond to a wall acrobatically, if the final decision is that they fall then so be it. I'm sure we'll all still enjoy the new Jumper skill!

EDIT: How about a compromise (which I've provided a demo sprite for, see attached) - the Jumper lemming hits the wall and turns, but instead of entering a 'Faller' state, they slide down the wall facing away from it. During the 'Slider' state, an additional Jumper skill could be assigned which would make the lemming perform a wall-jump (it could even be that the Climber skill could be assigned during this state as well). As an added bonus, the 'Slider' state could also prevent splatting without the need to assign a Floater or a Glider - but this advantage would be unique to a Jumper-that-has-hit-a-wall.

Thoughts?

[namida]

^ I'm open to this if people are generally in favor of it, but I suspect this won't be the case.

[WillLem]

^ I'm open to this if people are generally in favor of it, but I suspect this won't be the case.

How difficult would it be to run a trial of the idea to see what the response is from seeing the proposed Slider state in action?

[ccexplore]

It doesn't make any intuitive sense to me to get a transition into slider as a result of the jumper hitting the wall.  It kind of begs the question of why wouldn't a normal falling walking lemming that was falling off the same wall starting from the top (and therefore already facing the same direction, ie. away from the wall) also be able to slide.

For reference, the slider skill in Lemmings 2 affects how a lemming walking off a ledge would behave.  Instead of walking into thin air and then fall down, they react to the ledge by turning around while hoisting itself down the wall via the ledge, and then they slide down the wall while facing it, with the animation showing the lemming's hands and feet touching the wall in a way that suggests the lemming is actively using the wall to control its descent.

If the jumper doesn't turn around at the wall it collides into, I can somewhat more come to terms with it doing a slide down the wall.  But with the turn around, doing a slider just seems very weird to me.

[Proxima]

Completely agree. The lemming entering a unique state that isn't part of normal gameplay is an unexpected result that would be confusing for new players. You say "what if he's a particularly acrobatic lemming?" but it's an unbreakable rule of the game that all lemmings are the same until skills are assigned. The L2 Slider is a possibility for the last skill, and if it's added then we could talk about the jumper transitioning directly into a slide (in fact, I think I would be in favour) but if it's a normal lemming then no.

[Strato Incendus]

My vote is for falling straight down, because NL isn't going to have tumbler physics, so overall lemmings are going to feel "heavier" than lix.

Makes sense - Lix are female, after all, so on average they probably weigh less than a (supposedly male) Lemming.

Now that WillLem has added Lemminas, though, that point of "weight" is up for debate...

[WillLem]

It doesn't make any intuitive sense to me to get a transition into slider as a result of the jumper hitting the wall.  It kind of begs the question of why wouldn't a normal falling walking lemming that was falling off the same wall starting from the top (and therefore already facing the same direction, ie. away from the wall) also be able to slide.

I guess my point is essentially that jumping towards a wall is different from falling off a wall facing forwards, swimming into/building into/walking into/gliding into a wall (and any other action I may have forgotten about - the point remains that it's different!), and therefore merits a different physical response.

The response I've suggested is that the Lem should slide down the wall (which would be my preference simply for the sheer number of options and possibilities opened up by the idea as opposed to simply falling), but this doesn't seem to be a popular idea, and that's fine. If it at least gets trialled, that would be very gratifying even if the end result is a decision of "no".

If the jumper doesn't turn around at the wall it collides into, I can somewhat more come to terms with it doing a slide down the wall.  But with the turn around, doing a slider just seems very weird to me.

Yeah, exactly. Hence why I voted for the Lem staying faced towards the wall: I think I just really like the Slider idea! Not to worry, I'm aware I can't get all my ideas approved. Plenty more where this one came from!

Whatever decision is made, I'm still going to play NeoLemmix so it's all good.

[namida]

Okay - so, there seems to be a slight preference for "fall straight down" over "continue the jump in the opposite direction" after hitting a wall.

I've put a poll up to gauge interest in WillLem's slider idea. Based on the results, I'll decide whether I think an experimental to compare it is worthwhile or not.

[Strato Incendus]

Sliding after having turned around seems doubly unintuitive. Either the lemming doesn't turn around and slide down, but since we have already agreed he should turn around, then he should simply turn into a regular Faller looking into the opposite direction compared to his jump.

[namida]

Okay, so it definitely seems the Slider isn't popular as a default transition from Jumper. With that being said - Slider as its own standalone skill (which could then allow for a Jumper -> assigned Slider transition) is a completely seperate possibility that can be discussed in the final new skill topic.

I've put up a new poll now - yay or nay to wall-jumping?

As a reminder, here's a video showing this behaviour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc9TA_7SOh8

(If you want a video showing a lack of this behaviour, record a climber just climbing. )

[Strato Incendus]

Oh, wow, namida, I had no idea you were already that far in programming the Jumper!

I assume by wall-jumping, you mean the Climber's ability to jump off a wall, not to hold on to it after jumping? EDIT: Yes, you do, clarified by the poll!

I think it looks quite neat. This is pretty much exactly the type of behaviour people who were supporting a reflection of the Jumper's trajectory when bouncing off a wall were hoping for, I think?

Since regular Jumpers won't reflect their trajectory when hitting a wall, allowing Climbers to do it would be a nice compromise I think. It would limit the Jumper skill by itself a little, i.e. prevent it from becoming overpowered, while at the same time providing a nice interaction with an existing skill.

Also, giving Climbers this behaviour actually makes both Climbers and Jumpers much more useful than if only regular Jumpers had been able to bounce off walls. Because with Climbers, you can make this "jumping back and forth between two pillars / poles" cummulative! I think the puzzle ideas revolving around this concept alone are potentially endless!

So yes, please, please, please keep this wall-jumping behaviour!

[WillLem]

Also highly in favour of wall-Jumping, this video is ace!!

Could the parabolic arc of the Jumper be extended until the Lem reaches the floor or hits a wall? I understand it would still need to transition to Faller state after the initial jump arc, but perhaps the trajectory could continue...?

[Strato Incendus]

I understand it would still need to transition to Faller state after the initial jump arc, but perhaps the trajectory could continue...?

I'm pretty sure this would require tumbler physics, like in Lix or Lemmings 2. Fallers in NeoLemmix always move vertically.



Another question, I don't think this has come up yet:

Should updrafts affect Jumpers in any way?

This question is a novelty, because none of the other games that involve Jumpers (Lemmings 2, Lix, Pingus for Linux) have updrafts.

I guess the instinctive response would be "no", because
a) to my knowledge, you can't increase a Jumper's jump height in L2 by putting the fan underneath him (although this may just be a speed-of-execution problem)
b) the NeoLemmix Shimmier isn't affected by updrafts either, meaning he doesn't suddenly jump and "reach" higher when assigned inside an updraft

But since some people seem to like the Runner's ability to increase the distance a Jumper can cover... maybe giving him a special interaction with updrafts could serve to accomplish that?

This wouldn't affect the established behaviour of updrafts towards other skills in any way. It would be more of a thing "if a lemming is of the type 'Jumper' AND inside the trigger area of an updraft, THEN change the trajectory as follows..."

And it would also be easy to restrict these wider jumps in a level to places where the creator has placed updrafts, i.e. the lemming wouldn't start making wider jumps in general, like he would do when becoming a Runner.

[namida]

I assume by wall-jumping, you mean the Climber's ability to jump off a wall, not to hold on to it after jumping? EDIT: Yes, you do, clarified by the poll!

Yep. The other way around - Jumper -> (when hitting a wall) Climber - I've got the impression that there's basically no objection to this, and in fact the presence of this behaviour was one factor in my argument for the Jumper turning around when he hits a wall.

If I am wrong about there not being any objection to this, please do speak up - I do sometimes overlook / forget things.

And it would also be easy to restrict these wider jumps in a level to places where the creator has placed updrafts, i.e. the lemming wouldn't start making wider jumps in general, like he would do when becoming a Runner.

Wider jumps would be quite difficult to implement, so I hadn't really considered that. I was more just thinking that he gains more height during the upwards phase, and loses less during the downwards phase, thus while the horizontal movement is the same, he vertically ends up at a higher location than where he started.


Anyway, it seems like opinion is very much in favor of wall jumping being allowed - one "I'd have to try it out" and one "I don't care", with the rest of the votes so far being in favor, and none outright against it. While the vote count isn't quite as high as previous ones have been, I suspect it's high enough that it isn't going to turn around. Of course - the behaviour could still be removed if serious technical issues with it existing are found during testing. But as far as any opinion-based input goes, I think it's a solid "yes" on this one.

For the sake of simplicity, I'm making my own call regarding splat distance: It will measure from the end of the jump (unless the jump is interrupted early, at which point it counts from the point of interruption). This is simpler to code, and it's simpler for the player to understand (and especially, measure), even if it is slightly unrealistic.

I've put up a poll now regarding Jumper -> Glider timing. The two options I have presented are the only ones I am considering. If your thoughts is "I'd like to see it in action, but I don't necesserially feel the need to test it out myself", I'll put up a video later today (or failing that, over the weekend) showing the two possible behaviours in action, so in that case please hold your vote for now.

[namida]

As promised, here's a video showing the two options in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhh5eiJxL2I

(It seems voting is strongly in favor of "at the peak", but we'll leave that open for a little bit just in case the video changes anyone's mind - though I'll note I also prefer "at the peak" even having seen both in action.)

[namida]

So I came to this topic and saw no votes at all on the new poll... and then I realised I hadn't replied drawing attention to it.

So yeah - there's a new poll, regarding the jumper-glider updraft interaction.

As a reminder: The idea is that he'll keep the same horizontal path, but will gain more height during the upwards arc / lose less during the downwards, and thus finish the jump arc higher than he started it.

This is one I don't have super strong feelings either way about, and it isn't particularly huge amounts of extra effort to code thanks to how the Jumper is written so far, so which way the votes go is pretty much going to be the sole decider here (unless someone offers a really good logical argument for the other side, of course).

[Strato Incendus]

I voted vor updrafts increasing the jump height, along the lines of how winds increase jumps in jump-and-run games, like Speedy Eggbert.

Regarding the Glider-Jumper video, I'm impressed how you managed to include both types of behaviour in the same level! I guess you did this via a keyboard shortcut? Like "regular click = Jumper A, STRG + click = Jumper B"?

[namida]

Regarding the Glider-Jumper video, I'm impressed how you managed to include both types of behaviour in the same level! I guess you did this via a keyboard shortcut? Like "regular click = Jumper A, STRG + click = Jumper B"?

Nope - in the video, either "lemming is a swimmer" or "lemming is a disarmer" was the variable checked to change the jumper->glider behaviour. I forget which, which is why I assigned both to the lemming.

[WillLem]

Wow, I'm surprised the votes are so close; I thought interaction with updrafts would be pretty much a done deal! Might be worth seeing it in action if the votes remain equal, see if anyone is swayed either way.

Can we do a poll for double-jumps as well? i.e. If a Jumper is assigned to a Jumper mid-jump, it restarts the arc from lem's current position, allowing them to gain extra height and distance.

[namida]

Can we do a poll for double-jumps as well? i.e. If a Jumper is assigned to a Jumper mid-jump, it restarts the arc from lem's current position, allowing them to gain extra height and distance.

We'll see what (if anything) discussion of that idea suggests first. My two cents is that I don't think it's a good idea - while it'd be fun, it feels like one of those things that would become horribly prone to causing backroutes. Perhaps less so if there's a limit on it (eg. it's specifically limited to double jump, and the lemming must land after the 2nd before he can jump again), but even then it also could become very precision-dependent.

I'm not ruling the idea out though, at least not yet.

[IchoTolot]

I think a double jump would not make much sense as an extra jump in mid air is quite unrealistic for a normal lemming. You can't really jump with no ground under your feet

But to my main point:

At this point the skill itself becomes quite overloaded. It is already very useful with the extra wall jump and climber interaction.

It also gets more and more complicated with more and more extra rules - we should try and keep it simple so it becomes not too difficult to understand.

That's why I am not just against the double jump but also against the updraft interaction. The skill should not become too complicatect and overloaded. It is already very useful as it is right now and should not become too powerful/overpowered.

[Proxima]

I'm with Icho here. Double jump only makes sense if a lemming can jump from mid-air, which makes the skill really overpowered.

Regarding the updraft interaction, I would like to see a diagram showing the proposed trajectory. I recall namida said the jumper would gain 1 pixel height per frame compared to its normal trajectory, but I don't know how many frames the jump takes.

[namida]

I think a double jump would not make much sense as an extra jump in mid air is quite unrealistic for a normal lemming. You can't really jump with no ground under your feet

I think specifically in regards to it "making sense", it's acceptable because double-jumping is a very common video game ability.

[WillLem]

Just whilst the discussion is being had, firstly with regards to a double jump being unrealistic:

I think specifically in regards to it "making sense", it's acceptable because double-jumping is a very common video game ability.

This was going to be my first point; double-jump is quite common in video games.

Most Lemmings skills are rooted in a certain degree of realistic or at least plausible physics, but the odd exception to this is fine (bashing through walls strikes me as an existing example of this - i.e. unrealistic but acceptable).

Secondly, with regards to it being an overpowered skill:

There is talk on the Final New Skill thread of some of the suggestions being underpowered or not having enough traction as an idea. It seems there is a sweet spot at which a skill is powerful enough to merit inclusion on the panel but not too overpowered that it carries more than a couple of possibilities.

With the Jumper, these are the possibilities that would make it a particularly powerful skill:

Transition to/from Climber skill - this has been accepted
Sliding upon interaction with walls - this has been overruled in favour of the lemming turning around and falling
Jump boosted by updrafts - still up for vote
Double-jump possible - seems unpopular from current comments

As you can see, out of four existing possibilities, we have 1 accepted, 1 overruled, and 2 up for debate - one of which could go either way and the other of which is currently an unpopular idea.

Quite honestly, I'd say that the Jumper skill isn't quite as overpowered as it could be. Perhaps if updrafts gets overruled, then Double-jump could be a consideration on that basis, also taking into account that it would cost two instances of the skill to perform, and as Namida suggested could be limited to a single repeat.

To only have 1 out of four possible power-related applications accepted would be a bit of a shame, and would make the skill underpowered, IMHO.

[Proxima]

With the Jumper, these are the possibilities that make it a powerful skill:

Transition to/from Climber skill - this has been accepted
Sliding upon interaction with walls - this has been overruled in favour of the lemming turning around and falling
Jump boosted by updrafts - still up for vote
Double-jump possible - seems unpopular from current comments

To only have one out of four possible power-related applications accepted would be a bit of a shame, and would make the skill underpowered, IMHO.

Two out of five: jumper -> climber and climber -> jumper were both accepted. (I would also count the jumper turning round when hitting a blocker's field -- we just didn't vote on this because it was never in doubt.) But the "power" of a skill can't be measured just by counting interactions; consider the very first thing we debated, the size of the jump. Since the jumper's utility is to move a single lemming around the level, the wider the area it can reach, the more powerful the skill is. The large jump we decided on (with the caveat that we could change our minds once the release candidate is out and we've had a chance to play around with it) will give it a wide reach in many levels, and the wall-jumping ability adds a lot more, whenever climbers are provided. Adding the ability to jump in mid-air would give it too wide a reach in my opinion -- it would be very difficult for the designer to anticipate everything the player can do with a jumper, and it would be very susceptible to enabling backroutes.

[WillLem]

Two out of five: jumper -> climber and climber -> jumper were both accepted.

I counted these as one: "Transition to/from Climber" - but yes, I suppose if you count them separately then it's 2/5 instead of 1/4: still 3 other things to take into consideration.

(I would also count the jumper turning round when hitting a blocker's field -- we just didn't vote on this because it was never in doubt.)

I wouldn't necessarily count this as a "power" of a skill, as such... but OK, fair point.

Adding the ability to jump in mid-air would give it too wide a reach in my opinion -- it would be very difficult for the designer to anticipate everything the player can do with a jumper, and it would be very susceptible to enabling backroutes.

Hopefully, then, interaction with updrafts will be allowed: that way, there will still be a way of extending the Jumper's reach but it will be more specifically dependent on the level's design rather than the player's implementation of the Jumper skill.

Just to provide a counterpoint to this though: surely a level designer can choose to only include enough Jumper skills to complete a level as intended, i.e. if a player decides to double-jump, it may cost them a Jumper skill that needs to be used elsewhere. There are still ways to prevent backroutes even if double-jump gets the vote.

Either way, I still think that having no way to extend the Jumper's reach leaves it somewhat under-powered, especially since the only "power" from the above list that has been accepted so far is the Jumper's abilities when combined with a Climber: in the absence of the Climber skill, the Jumper is not looking quite so powerful.

EDIT: Unless it's decided that assigning a Jumper cancels other skills, in which case it's also useful as a skill-canceller.

[namida]

EDIT: Unless it's decided that assigning a Jumper cancels other skills, in which case it's also useful as a skill-canceller.

I'm essentially thinking that you could assign a Jumper in any case where you can assign a Shimmier (plus the "assign to climber" special case). Did anyone expect otherwise?

[Strato Incendus]

No, that makes sense. Shimmiers can already be used as surrogate Walkers in this regard, to e.g. cancel constructive and destructive skills. The important part is that neither Shimmiers nor Jumpers should be able to free Blockers - that should remain specifically the Walker's responsibility.



Regarding double-jumping: While obviously this is very common in jump-and-run video games (and then also limited to one double-jump), didn't we rule out Swimmers jumping out of water for this exact same reason? That you can't jump without solid ground under your feet?

If it's possible to jump in mid-air, then it should definitely be possible to jump out of water, because at least there's a surface and some kind of substance there, rather than just... you know... nothing.

I guess the purely game-mechanical explanation would be that you can't assign any other skill to Swimmers either, aside from subtractive (=lethal) and additive ones (=Cloner).

But then again, if you go with a purely game-mechanical explanation, there's no reason why double-jumping should be limited to one repetition. The lemming would jump from mid-air the second time just like he's jumping from mid-air the first time. So this would be inconsistent.

Keep in mind that in most jump-and-run games that allow double-jumping, the second jump is accompanied by a different animation than the first one (usually a flip forwards). The animation for the lemming Jumper, in contrast, would be the same both times. Hence, it would be impossible to tell from the trajectory of the animation alone whether a given lemming is currently performing his first or second jump. And if there's no difference between the first and second jump, then I don't see a way (rules-wise nor coding wise), to make double-jumping possible but e.g. triple-jumping not.

Also, this rabbit hole goes much deeper. If you can jump in mir-air, can you also assign Jumpers to Shimmiers in their Reacher state, then? If our 20th skill becomes the upward Digger, that one would probably also have to include a Reaching animation. Then we'd have Jumper-Jumper, Shimmier-Jumper, and upward Digger-Jumper interactions.

[IchoTolot]

For the updraft interaction case it is less of a problem that the skill becomers overpowered.

The main problem there lies in the other thing that I mentioned:

The skill gets too complex with too many extra rules.

A skill should be easy to understand while still being versitile and useful. Right now new players would have to learn:

- The general jump arc.
- Glider activates at the highest point.
- jumper turns upon hitting a wall
- jumper  --> climber
- climber -->  jumper

I think this list is already quite big and should not grow any larger. An updraft interaction would add another special rule that I would not call obvious at the first glance and it can be quite a rare occasion in terms of seeing it being used in a level.
I also don't think the extra updraft interaction rule would add too much in terms of level design possibilities. It's too much extra rule weight for the level desgin gain you get. A slightly different trajectory isn't worth it.

If a jumper turns into a glider though of course the glider is affected then.

[Proxima]

Sorry to interrupt the updraft discussion, but I have a point I want to raise before I forget about it:

Speed. On flat terrain a la Tightrope City, can you assign jumper to the lead lemming of the crowd to get them further ahead? If you can, that's yet another point in favour of the jumper already being quite powerful as it is, as well as a strike against adding the Runner, since one of its main use cases can already by achieved with jumpers.

Either way, I still think that having no way to extend the Jumper's reach leaves it somewhat under-powered

There is no way to extend a Builder's reach, and it's the most powerful skill in the game.

[WillLem]

You all make very good points, and I don't really disagree.

However...

I still think that either updraft interaction or a single-repeat double-jump should be possible. Either of these cases does not increase the power of the Jumper skill all that much: one relies on the presence of an updraft object, the other relies on an additional assigning of a Jumper skill to the same Lemming.

To my way of thinking, it's more a case of: "take your pick which" rather than "no, let's not have either." That just seems unnecessarily restrictive, particularly since the Slider state has already been ruled out.

(That being said, if the Slider ends up being the 20th skill then this last point is somewhat moot...)

[Proxima]

I grant that your idea of allowing double-jump only during a jump is much more restricted and less liable to be overpowered than if you were proposing "jump from mid-air anywhere". But it comes with its own problems: firstly, even in videogame logic, the two usually go together, and it's not clear why it should be possible to double-jump during a jump only; secondly, the restriction makes it harder for new players to discover that double-jumping is possible at all.

To my way of thinking, it's more a case of: "take your pick which" rather than "no, let's not have either." That just seems unnecessarily restrictive

The Jumper is already extremely powerful. As I said, the power of a skill is not measured in terms of number of interactions -- look at the Builder, which has one interaction with another skill (the Blocker); or the Stoner, which has none*. It's about how versatile the skill is; the number of different situations it can be used for. The vanilla Jumper, by itself, can cancel another skill; get one lemming over a gap without using up a builder; get one lemming past a trap; get one lemming over a blocker/stacker (excellent for when your worker lemming needs to die or block and you need a second worker); get a lemming to a higher elevation; get a lemming to a lower elevation without floaters/gliders given a favourable terrain setup; get a lemming partway up a wall or close to a ceiling to bomb/stone there or collect a pickup skill. To all that, we've already agreed to add transitioning to a climber, allowing the climber to wall-jump, and gliding from the peak of the jump.

*Yes, the terrain created by a Builder or Stoner can be interacted with by other skills, but that's not a direct interaction of the two skills.

If you can look at all that and still think the Jumper needs more bells and whistles in order to pull its weight, then I guess we're not talking the same language any more.

[Strato Incendus]

If I had to go with one of the two, I think the case for updrafts increasing jump height would be more consistent than single-use double-jumping (and at the same time less potentially-broken than unlimited repeat-jumping).

Since the argument for double-jumping has been "it's possible in many jump-and-run games" (even though the way we think of lemmings in NeoLemmix is hardly similar to a jump-and-run game anymore), then, as I said earlier, the idea of a wind from below increasing the total height you can jump is just as consistent with that jump-and-run logic, while at the same time being more easily containable than double- or multiple-jumping.

Here is an example from the game Speedy Eggbert, which is the basis for Jaime's House and Techno graphic sets in NeoLemmix (you might recognise some of the blue Techno pieces):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7I9-Hlyag

As you can see, this game not only has up- and downward updrafts, but also sideways updrafts that limit how far Eggbert can jump (if they go against his direction of movement), or increase the width he can jump across (if they go in the same direction of movement). Also, winds can be switched off by destroying the fan that creates them (even though this usually comes at the cost of one of Eggbert's lives).

[namida]

This updraft idea seems quite controversial. We might need a test run, or at least a side by side demonstration video...

[Proxima]

I voted against, but I'm not dead set against it and I would like to see it in action. Rather than (or in addition to) a video, I would simply like to see a screenshot with the trajectory indicated, with and without an updraft present.

[WillLem]

The vanilla Jumper, by itself, can cancel another skill; get one lemming over a gap without using up a builder; get one lemming past a trap; get one lemming over a blocker/stacker (excellent for when your worker lemming needs to die or block and you need a second worker); get a lemming to a higher elevation; get a lemming to a lower elevation without floaters/gliders given a favourable terrain setup; get a lemming partway up a wall or close to a ceiling to bomb/stone there or collect a pickup skill. To all that, we've already agreed to add transitioning to a climber, allowing the climber to wall-jump, and gliding from the peak of the jump.
...
If you can look at all that and still think the Jumper needs more bells and whistles in order to pull its weight, then I guess we're not talking the same language any more.

Yeah, that is pretty good actually.

Still, I'm liking the idea of a Jumper-in-an-updraft demo. Seeing it in action might be the best way to evaluate its potential either way.

[namida]

Video / test build will come later if it still seems necessary, but for now, here's an image I constructed showing the actual path (which at some point slightly deviated from the earlier specs - it's 37px wide and 19px high, so 1px extra in each direction, but this feels "right" so unless there's significant objection I'm leaving it this way), vs my proposed path when an updraft is involved.

The rule being applied to figure out the updraft path is:
- If there would be downwards vertical movement this frame, the first downwards pixel movement does not occur.
- Otherwise, an extra one pixel of upwards movement is added at the start of each frame.

How this would apply if a lemming entered an updraft mid-frame is TBD. It's also likely I'll make deviations from the above specifics to make the path tidier (while retaining the overall concept of "one extra pixel of height gain / one less pixel of height loss per frame").

(The two halves of the attached image are identical, except for which path is in front of the other graphically.)

[Proxima]

Seems like a fairly mild change, then -- and it shouldn't be too confusing for new players since it would be visible in the skill shadow. I've changed my vote from "no" to "no preference", but that's as far as I'll go -- I don't think it's important we include this interaction.

[Strato Incendus]

I think this is a subtle but completely valid change. An updraft in this specific position would thus still allow the Jumper to cover the same width as before (no longitudinal extension of the leap), but the point at which he lands on the other side could be slightly (=4 pixels) higher if he jumps through an updraft, compared to a regular jump, where, if the full length of the jump is required to cover the distance, he would have to land at the same height as he started (if the wall were any higher, he'd instead bump against it and fall down).

So I would be completely on board with this, if this ends up being the difference between regular and updraft jumping!

Question: If a Jumper hits the side of a platform that's just slightly higher than his starting position, will he engage in "hoisting" behaviour, just like the Shimmier does when encountering a platform that's slightly higher than the current position of his feet under the ceiling?

[IchoTolot]

If the change is only this minor than the extra rule is even less justified.

This also leads to another danger that is that this difference is accidentally overlooked. Changes should not be too subtle.

An updraft in this specific position would thus still allow the Jumper to cover the same width as before (no longitudinal extension of the leap), but the point at which he lands on the other side could be slightly (=4 pixels) higher if he jumps through an updraft, compared to a regular jump, where, if the full length of the jump is required to cover the distance, he would have to land at the same height as he started (if the wall were any higher, he'd instead bump against it and fall down).

From a design standpoint you can also simply make the other side 4 pixels lower. Why introduce an extra rule when a very slight edit by the designer in the editor can achieve the same effect?

For this mild change I think an extra rule is even less justified and I would be even more on the no side.

[WillLem]

I'm not entirely sure what the picture is showing to be honest!

IchoTolot has a valid point; I'm starting to feel like if that updraft doesn't give extra jump distance as well as jump height, it might not be worth it after all... keeping my vote as a "yes" for now though.

Double jump, then?

[namida]

Okay so while the vote is only very slightly in favor of "no effect", the reasoning explained by some people is pushing me towards that side as well.

So - I'm going to say that this one is a "no", with the caveat that if opinion changes between now and V12.9.0-stable's release, I'm open to reconsidering this. But in any case, I won't discuss it again until an experimental or RC version of NL that includes the Jumper has been released.

On discussion alone, I'm going to rule out any kind of double-jump or other mid-air jump at this point.

[namida]

Let's think about the Jumper in connection with every other possible lemming state, to see if there's any edge case we've missed here. Let me know if there's anything you think I'm overlooking.


Walker - Assigning a Jumper to a Walker is of course the typical case. A jumper becomes a walker upon landing, or upon hitting a wall so short he can step up it without becoming a Hoister. In terms of the Walker skill, assigning it to a Jumper will not be allowed.
Ascender - Jumper and Ascender never directly transition to each other.
Faller - Jumper becomes a Faller upon hitting a wall (also turns around in this case) or ceiling (remains facing the same direction in this case). Jumper cannot be assigned to a Faller.
Shrugger - Assigning a Jumper to a Shrugger works as normal. Obviously, there is no case in which a Jumper becomes a Shrugger.

Reacher - Jumper cannot be assigned to a Reacher. A Jumper will never become a Reacher either, although there are cases in which a Jumper can directly become a Shimmier.
Shimmier - Jumper cannot be assigned to a Shimmier. A Shimmier can be assigned to a Jumper if he's close enough to a ceiling to grab it immediately (without a Reacher phase).

Climber - A jumper hitting a wall can climb it if he's a Climber. A lemming climbing a wall can be made a Jumper, and will jump away from the wall.
Hoister - A jumper hitting a wall very slightly further than the distance he can just step on to it, will become a Hoister. Jumper cannot be assigned to a Hoister (maybe it should be possible, as a "last-second wall jump"?).

Swimmer - A Jumper who hits water and is a Swimmer, begins swimming immediately (or drowns otherwise). Jumper cannot be assigned to a swimming lemming.

Disarmer - The normal universal rule for "transition to Disarmer" applies - the lemming must be standing on solid ground. Therefore, a Jumper could only become a Disarmer if he lands exactly on the trap trigger area and the trigger area does not stick out of the ground at all. (Perhaps this should be simplified: "Jumper will always be affected by a trap") A Jumper cannot be assigned to a lemming who is disarming.

Floater - Floater and Jumper never transition directly to each other. (Can't assign Jumper to a floating lemming; in the other direction, they'd go via Faller.)
Glider - Jumper cannot be assigned to a gliding lemming. Edge case: A Jumper transitions to a Glider at the peak of the jump, not the end.

Bomber
Stoner
- Jumper immediately performs these actions without Ohnoing first.

Blocker - Neither skill can be assigned while performing the other. A Jumper who encounters a Blocker will bounce off him and otherwise continue the normal trajectory.

Platformer
Builder
Stacker
Basher
Fencer
Miner
Digger
- Jumper can be assigned to all of these; none of these can be assigned to Jumper.

Cloner - Permitted and works as normal; the clone will face the opposite direction and otherwise continue the same trajectory as the original lemming.

Exiter - Jumper obviously cannot be assigned to an Exiter. A Jumper will become an Exiter only if it encounters the exit trigger area on solid ground (not in midair). I am open to "Jumpers never exit" instead if this is preferred; I'm not open to "Jumpers can exit in midair".
Death states - Jumper cannot be assigned to the lemming. A Jumper will transition to these states as per normal rules.

[Proxima]

The one thing I'm unsure about is the Hoister state. We agreed on the 36x18 trajectory because we felt a 32px gap should be crossable, and a 16px step ascendable, with a bit of leeway; but the Hoister would effectively increase the jumper's reach (certainly vertically, and maybe horizontally as well?). So I would think it should either be 36x18 with no hoisting, or a smaller trajectory (32x16 maybe) with hoisting. But maybe I'm overlooking something.

[namida]

The Hoister doesn't increase horizontal reach in any way.

For vertical reach, 0 to 2 pixels high transitions to a walker, while 3 to 5 (or 3 to 8, if the lemming is a climber - this is essentially just "he climbs it, but he's close enough to the top from the start to hoist immediately") becomes a hoister first. This would mean that:

- Up to 21px above the lemming's initial position can be reached directly
- Up to 24px above the lemming's initial position can be reached via hoister (though this needs to be quite precise if it's exactly 24px)

The result feels completely right, at least to me, when trying it out in-game. Although, it might be preferable to use an Ascender here instead, but this would pretty much just be a visual change (aside from the Hoister-Jumper wall jump possibility, I guess). I suspect any tweaking regarding the exact height is something that would be best left until there's an exp / RC build available.

[Strato Incendus]

Ascender - Jumper and Ascender never directly transition to each other.

Haha, the "old" Jumper to the "new" one! So I guess this means it's not possible to assign a Jumper to an Ascender (just like it's not possible to assign most other skills to Ascenders).

But couldn't a Jumper theoretically land on such a spot of terrain that he would have to ascend right away after landing (without ever being a regular Walker in between)? Or would he just "bump" against a "6-pixel wall" and turn around instead? What about altitudes lower than 6 pixels but higher than 1?

Hoister - A jumper hitting a wall very slightly further than the distance he can just step on to it, will become a Hoister. Jumper cannot be assigned to a Hoister (maybe it should be possible, as a "last-second wall jump"?).

Thanks, the first part answers what I was asking! So it will act just like the Shimmier in that case.

Regarding Hoister-to-Jumper transitions: If those are possible, I can already see WillLem create a pixel-precise level with a trap right at the top of a Climber's path, and a platform behind the Climber that you have to jump to, but the platform is placed at such a height that you can only reach it from the top of the wall (=where the trap is). In that case, you couldn't assign the Jumper while the lemming is still climbing (because he'd jump too low and miss the platform behind him), but you couldn't wait until he had finished climbing either, because then he'd go into the trap.

Or, alternatively, there wouldn't be a trap, but since the lemming would jump forward again once he is a Walker again, the Hoister state would be the last chance for him to turn around as part of the jump.

So I think, the main question should really be: If Jumpers can be assigned to Hoisters, do they jump forward (as soon-to-be-Walkers), or backwards (as still-Climbers)?

[namida]

I would see a Hoister as jumping the same way as a Climber if allowed, especially since for most of the hoist they're not quite at the top of the wall yet (try observing it frame-by-frame, in particular watching the position dot, in Clear Physics Mode).

Let's be careful about specifically accusing other users like that, especially when those users have shown that they're learning what is or isn't considered fair in a level and making efforts to improve (I'd probably be a bit less bothered if it was an accusation that someone has repeatedly, over many years, shown to be valid with no attempts to remedy it). With that being said, the general concept of what you're saying is valid - but I'm generally only going to rule out / cull a feature based on troll potential if the troll potential is the dominant aspect of it, or if the other features are relatively low importance. If it has lots of legitimate use with a few trollish edge cases (like how No Overwrite does), then I'd rather handle the troll potential via combination of discouragement, and where possible, features that reduce the effectiveness of the troll setup without breaking legitimate use cases (to use the same example, Clear Physics Mode would be the biggest counter-feature).

I'm not saying Hoister->Jumper is a definite. I'm very much open to not allowing it; I just don't see "troll potential" as a good reason at this stage.

[Strato Incendus]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to be an accusation - just something that would fit the level design philosophy he actively stated he enjoys personally, and thus, this would be completely fine in my book . I am aware he's actively trying to create levels that go along with the majority opinion in the NeoLemmix community.

I do think this might result in some pixel-precise levels - because otherwise it might rarely make a notable difference whether a regular Climber vs. a Hoister jumps, unless the level designer actively enforces it.

But fortunatly, the Hoister animation takes a couple of frames, so it should still be comparatively reasonable to assign any skill to a Hoister in general.

I just don't remember any particular other skill that you can assign to a Hoister?

[namida]

I just don't remember any particular other skill that you can assign to a Hoister?

Bomber, Stoner and permanent skills; that's it. (EDIT: Maybe Cloner too, not sure off-hand.)

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the overview! In other words: You can't assign a Shimmier to a Hoister.

Based on that, would it be reasonable for the player to assume that they can assign a Jumper to a Hoister?

Puzzle-wise, I think the most important gain of this mechanic would be allowing the Climber to turn around before looking forward again as a Walker.

Additionally, and easy to overlook, is the fact that Shimmiers and Jumpers can also become Hoisters now; iit would thus allow a Shimmier arriving on a platform slightly higher than his feet (causing him to hoist) to immediately jump into the other direction (same for a Jumper).

It would probably not be possible for a Shimmier traveling along a thin platform to immediately turn around through Hoist-Jumping after his arrival and jump on top of the platform he shimmied along before. He would most likely just bump his head on the ceiling he shimmied along and fall down looking in the opposite direction.

Unless you clone the Shimmier shortly before the original arrives, then bomb the clone to make space, so that the original can arrive, hoist-jump to turn around and jump over the Bomber gap created by the Shimmier clone, to then land on top of the platform he shimmied along before.

Do you understand what I mean? It's probably hard to explain without a RC build allowing hoist-jumping to demonstrate.

[namida]

Thanks for the overview! In other words: You can't assign a Shimmier to a Hoister.

Based on that, would it be reasonable for the player to assume that they can assign a Jumper to a Hoister?

Counter-point: You can assign a Jumper, but not a Shimmier, to a climber. Hoister could be seen as primarily the "last few frames" of a climber's action.

However, a Hoister can also come from a non-climber now. I'd rather not make this dependent on "is the lemming a Climber or not"? - the "few extra pixels" case is essentially just "he climbs as normal, but he's already so close to the top that he hoists right away", so I don't see that as a problem in the same way as this.

[Strato Incendus]

Counter-point: You can assign a Jumper, but not a Shimmier, to a climber.

Of course you can assign a Shimmier to a Climber (that was kind of the point of this most important interaction)! Just not while he is hoisting...

However, a Hoister can also come from a non-climber now. I'd rather not make this dependent on "is the lemming a Climber or not"?

With that part I completely agree, since it's not visible to the player whether the lemming is hoisting as a Climber, Shimmier, or Jumper.

Of course, an athlete will have different colours, but those don't necessarily indicate a Climber. And as soon as a lemming as two or more permanent skills, i.e. is no longer just called "Climber" when hovering the mouse over him, the player actively needs to press ALT to see which skills he has.

Sure, usually players know what state a lemming just transitioned from - but I guess it would be technically possible to place a pre-placed Climber or Shimmier in such a position that he hoists right at the start of the level... and then the player wouldn't know...

Maybe now I'm being more puristic about the "everything-needs-to-be-visible-from-the-start puzzle philosophy" than anyone who's actually endorsing that philosophy... so feel free to accuse me of straw-manning this time ...

But consistency of behaviour is of course something we always strive for in general, so any type of Hoister should behave the same way in this regard, as you said.

[namida]

Of course you can assign a Shimmier to a Climber (that was kind of the point of this most important interaction)! Just not while he is hoisting...

Okay, I should rephrase that: "You can't freely assign a Shimmier to a Climber at any time".

But yeah, I'm more and more leaning towards "don't allow Hoister->Jumper" now.

[WillLem]

Regarding Hoister-to-Jumper transitions: If those are possible, I can already see WillLem create a pixel-precise level with a trap right at the top of a Climber's path, and a platform behind the Climber that you have to jump to, but the platform is placed at such a height that you can only reach it from the top of the wall (=where the trap is). In that case, you couldn't assign the Jumper while the lemming is still climbing (because he'd jump too low and miss the platform behind him), but you couldn't wait until he had finished climbing either, because then he'd go into the trap.

Whaaat? I wouldn't do that!

Haha, to be fair I do like a bit of pixel-precision, but not to the extent of making something that's impossible. Besides - if an impossible element is included in a level, it renders it unsolvable. I'm definitely not into making unsolvable levels, just want to clear that up right now!

Let's be careful about specifically accusing other users like that, especially when those users have shown that they're learning what is or isn't considered fair in a level and making efforts to improve

Thanks, Namida!

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to be an accusation - just something that would fit the level design philosophy he actively stated he enjoys personally, and thus, this would be completely fine in my book . I am aware he's actively trying to create levels that go along with the majority opinion in the NeoLemmix community.

Haha, that's OK. I do enjoy a bit of naughtiness when it comes to level-making, but ultimately - and I'm stating this here just to avoid any further misunderstandings of my level design philosophy - I like to include gimmicky elements (such as hidden/invisible stuff) now and again, sure; but I always want my levels to be fun, enjoyable and above all playable. Whether I'm using gimmicks or not, I always want to make sure that the the level is clearly laid out and easy to navigate. I always try to design with this in mind.

And just to state this here as well: from now on, my intention is generally going to be to make fair-puzzle levels, as per community preference. However, if I do get the urge to make some gimmicky (or, as I prefer to call it - "experimental") levels, I'll always label them as such and I won't be surprised if they only get played by one or two people!

My offer stands, Strato - if you fancy getting on Lemmicks 2 with me, let's do it!

[Strato Incendus]

My offer stands, Strato - if you fancy getting on Lemmicks 2 with me, let's do it!

What? I hadn't even heard of that offer! Sure, let's do this! There are still a lot of unexplored Gimmicks left (and some less-popular ones that we could drop this time, like Frenzy / SuperLemming / No Gravity... ).

Haha, to be fair I do like a bit of pixel-precision, but not to the extent of making something that's impossible. Besides - if an impossible element is included in a level, it renders it unsolvable. I'm definitely not into making unsolvable levels, just want to clear that up right now!

Oh, don't worry, I never claimed any of your levels were unsolvable, nor did I experience any of them as such. Just some very pixel-precise ones (I think the epitome of that was your modification of Mayhem 01, "Steel works", with the countless number of hatches).

But as I said in my previous post, I realised that there might indeed be some puzzle applications for Hoist-Jumping, and that it isn't going to be as pixel-precise as I initially feared, because it's not something that just works on a single frame, but the Hoister still takes a couple of frames.

So just to be clear, I don't object to Hoist-Jumping being possible. I just wanted to pose the question whether it would lead to more of a gain for puzzle design, or whether it would rather cause confusion.

[namida]

I've released an experimental build which supports the Jumper skill: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.0

[Proxima]

I'm reposting here a query I had in the Slider topic, since this is important to decide regardless of whether or not we get the Slider:

Should a Shimmier reaching the end of a ceiling have a one-frame window before they fall, in which they can jump?

[IchoTolot]

I'm reposting here a query I had in the Slider topic, since this is important to decide regardless of whether or not we get the Slider:

Should a Shimmier reaching the end of a ceiling have a one-frame window before they fall, in which they can jump?

I say no. It's unessesarily precise and in the usual cases result in a jump against a wall or another ceiling.

The parkour possibilities are already quite large for the jumper. I don't think we should overload them.

[namida]

I'm not in favor of that idea, though I'm willing to consider it if enough other people are. I'll put up a poll later.

[Strato Incendus]

Just to understand Proxima's suggestion clearly:

Do you suggest the Shimmier should be able to jump from the end of a ceiling across a gap, to hold on to a wall on the other side of said gap? I can see that being useful, it's just questionable whether it would make sense for a Shimmier to be able to do such a "swing" across a gap using only the strength of his arms, because he has no ground under his feet to jump from.

Or do you suggest this assignment should flip the Shimmier around the corner of the ceiling is already attached to, i.e. to then climb up at a 90 degree angle to the ceiling he shimmied along, like in the examples from Lemmings 2 I mentioned?


Anyways, thank you very, very much for the release candidate, namida! I'll check it out later this evening!

A very welcome surprise, now that many of us are stuck at home! Even though I can occupy myself by making music, Eurovision (the focus of my YouTube channel) has been cancelled, so the season kind of ended prematurely and it doesn't really make much sense to cover many more songs from this year. I originally thought I would get back to working on Lemmings Hall of Fame in May, when Eurovision would have been over and the Jumper is officially released. Now I can start a little earlier!

Of course, I know that I shouldn't rely too heavily on the way the Jumper behaves in a release candidate (rather than a stable version). But at least knowing things such as both Jumper-Climber and Climber-Jumper transitions both being the possible is already immensely valuable! If e.g. the exact width and height a Jumper can cover should still be modified, I have no issues adapting my levels to that later on.

[Proxima]

Neither; I'm just floating the idea to see if it's what people want, since I thought it should at least be considered. I agree with Icho that it wouldn't be good to add another, very precise, interaction. Using the Jumper to flip around a corner makes a lot more sense than doing do with a Slider, but it's still precise and a bit weird.

[Strato Incendus]

As much as I would like Shimmier going around corners, using Jumpers to do it sounds counterintuitive to me: When I try to assign a Jumper to a Shimmier, if it works at all, I would expect the lemming to perform a regular Jumper animation.

And that could e.g. be used if the Shimmier has reached a gap and needs to jump in order to get to the other side, where he can either climb or continue shimmying (since Jumpers should be able to transition into Shimmiers as well, like in L2, where the Shimmier performs a standard Jumper animation before grabbing the ceiling).

With the Slider, in contrast, I would expect a) turning around and b) dangling, both of which are required for transitioning from a Shimmier into a Climber.


EDIT: Copied from the post with the experimental release of the Jumper:

5) Another thing that didn't come to my mind until just now: How should Jumpers respond to splat pads?
Shimmiers die when failing to reach for a ceiling, because they transition back into a Faller.
Jumpers will obviously also die if a platform with a splat pad is 1 pixel lower than the platform they started jumping from, because they will transition to a Faller after the jumping arc is completed, and therefore splat.
But what about a Jumper landing straight on a splat pad at the end of or even earlier during his jump (e.g. when jumping onto a platform higher than the one he started from)?

Splat pads seem like a great way to make certain paths "Jumper-proof". We have a new skill, that means we also need to consider new potential backroutes.

I'm just not sure whether it would be counter-intuitive as far as mechanics are concerned, because the Jumper wouldn't transition into a Faller before hitting the splat pad and splatting. But they still "land on it", so that would make the player expect them to splat again...

Just for everyone's information: Currently, Jumpers don't splat when landing on a splat pad within the course of their arc (=meaning the only splat if they become a regular Faller after the jump).

[namida]

Splat pads do currently hinge specifically on the "faller" state, FWIW. A lemming that steps down a few pixels without becoming a faller, won't splat on a splat pad. A glider or floater will splat on a splat pad if they don't get enough time to pull out the respective tool first (but even the first frame of doing so, counts).

I'd like to keep consistency and base it on state. In other words, one of these two approaches:
a) If a Jumper lands on a splatpad, he splats.
or b) Jumpers ignore splatpads, and are only affected if they become a faller first before landing on it.

Between those two, I'm open to either. I like A a little bit more, but this is a very weak preference.

[WillLem]

I'd like to keep consistency and base it on state. In other words, one of these two approaches:
a) If a Jumper lands on a splatpad, he splats.

Do you mean before or after he's transitioned to a faller?

[Strato Incendus]

No, he means during the Jump, without ever being a Faller.

If we decide for A, what would happen if someone put a splat pad under a ceiling, and the Jumper bumped his head on that ceiling within the trigger area of the splat pad? Would he splat on the ceiling, as well?

The case for A would be that a Jumper can also transition into a Glider at the top of his curve - something that is usually also reserved for Fallers.

One could say "You can't have the upsides of being a Faller (=Glider transition possible) without having the downsides... ".

But then, some people might expect that fall height would be calculated from the top of a Jumper's arc as well, rather than from the point where he actually transitions back into a Faller...

[Proxima]

I'm ambivalent as to whether a jumper hitting a splat pad on his downward arc should splat, but I'm absolutely against him splatting during his upward arc. And if it would be too complicated to distinguish the two and they must behave alike, then that settles it -- he shouldn't splat at all.

[WillLem]

One could say "You can't have the upsides of being a Faller (=Glider transition possible) without having the downsides... ".

But then, some people might expect that fall height would be calculated from the top of a Jumper's arc as well, rather than from the point where he actually transitions back into a Faller...

That's what's confusing me: I thought it was decided that a Jumper isn't a Faller until the end of the arc...

Proxima's level Class of '91 includes a drop onto a platform that's survivable even with the height added to the drop by the Jumper's curve.

Seems to me that Splat Pads should also ignore the Jumper's movement until they become a Faller. Indeed, Namida begins the post by saying...

Splat pads do currently hinge specifically on the "faller" state

...hence the confusion.

[Dullstar]

I'd say jumpers share some similarities to fallers, so it makes sense for them to splat when they land on a splat pad.

I don't know exactly how it's handled in the source code, but experimentally speaking, in the current stable version, splat pads only affect a lemming if it is a faller that lands while in the splat pad's trigger area. Merely passing through has no effect. I'm not sure exactly how you'd get a jumper to land on the splat pad during the upwards trajectory, but it should probably only affect them on the downwards arc.

[namida]

It would be easy enough to only affect them on the downwards part of the jump.

[WillLem]

I'd say jumpers share some similarities to fallers, so it makes sense for them to splat when they land on a splat pad.

It would be easy enough to only affect them on the downwards part of the jump.

I'm still not sure I understand. Even if Jumpers only splat on their downwards arc, why should the Splat Pad affect a non-faller-state Jumper, but not a non-faller-state Walker?

i.e. If a regular Walker "drops" onto a Splat Pad without entering the faller state, this (to my mind) is very similar to a Jumper jumping into the Splat Pad's trigger area without entering the faller state.

Of course, it's very possible I could be mistaken. I'm not sure what the relative pixel-distances are for these various things.

[namida]

I'm still not sure I understand. Even if Jumpers only splat on their downwards arc, why should the Splat Pad affect a non-faller-state Jumper, but not a non-faller-state Walker?

i.e. If a regular Walker "drops" onto a Splat Pad without entering the faller state, this (to my mind) is very similar to a Jumper jumping into the Splat Pad's trigger area without entering the faller state.

Yes, and that's the question - should this be expanded to "a faller or a jumper"?

[WillLem]

Ah, right. In that case, I'd vote no: I think Splat Pads should only affect fallers.

That said...

I suppose giving the Jumper this one vulnerability does take the edge off it's overall powerfulness...

But still, I'd vote no. I like the fact that the Jumper is a skill to be reckoned with.

[Strato Incendus]

I know I was the one who brought this up, but this doesn't mean I really have a preference. I'm just wondering about what would be the most logical step.

I think the actual inconsistency was introduced when we agreed that Gliders should open their parachute at the top of the Jumper's arc. This is another behaviour that used to be restricted exclusively to Fallers. But of course, it is very useful for Gliders, so I'm happy we agreed on this, and I wouldn't use the splat-pad argument to call for changing Jumper-Glider behaviour again.

However, if we wanted to be completely consistent, this would now mean that fall height would have to be calculated from the top of the Jumper's arc as well. Indeed, in my test levels, I was often surprised to see that a Jumper survived a certain drop, simply because it looked much higher than the height he was actually covering in the "Faller" state, which is the only one relevant to the question whether he splats or not.

Then again, having Jumpers survive these slightly higher drops (meaning up to regular splat height + their own additional altitude gained by the jump) is definitely nice for creating Lemmings 2: The Tribes style levels (since L2 allows for both ridiculous fall heights to begin with plus the "stunned" behaviour on top of that). And keep in mind the Jumper enables this without actually requiring a genuine physics change (like Cheapo Mode back in the day, or so I've been told). Thus, I think fall height should continue to be calculated as it is now, not factoring in the height of the lemming during the jump, and only "starting the countdown" after the transition back to the Faller state.

The question is also how many backroutes the Jumper might actually lead to.

Splat pads that can kill regular Jumpers landing on top of them can do a great deal to make a certain path Jumper-proof. Then again, if we're talking about the standard application of several small blocks here (each of which would have to be covered entirely by its respective splat pad in order for this method to be effective), then those blocks would also become Builder-proof - because each lemming would land on top of that block falling from a Builder, and therefore splat. Which kind of ruins the purpose.

Basically, a path of blocks covered in splat pads would scream "use Platformers here". This is already the case right now, because it disincentivises the use of Builders. If the Jumper's behaviour were changed in this way, it would merely extend this to Jumpers. But it would not result in a situation telling the player "use Builders instead of Jumpers here", because neither would work.



Thus, after having thought this through in the way explained above... I might actually say no as well. Jumpers should only be affected by splat pads when transitioning back into a Faller. This situation is still easy enough to create, after all, by simply placing the blocks one pixel lower than the piece of terrain the Jumper starts from, so at the end of his arc, he still has one more pixel to go as a Faller.

But I may have overlooked other applications where Jumpers splatting on splat pads right after their jump might be both useful and make more sense logically?

[WillLem]

Just did a quick test and it turns out that a fall of 4px is enough for a Splat pad to trigger.

(Still in favour of No Splat For Jumpers until they transition to faller state).

[IchoTolot]

I agree with WillLem here: In favour of No Splat For Jumpers until they transition to faller state.

It just feels cleaner and simpler to me.

[namida]

To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build, how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?

[WillLem]

To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build, how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?

Not noticed any bugs myself other than those that have already been fixed.

I'd say I'm generally still in favour of some sort of post-Jumper diagonal fall state which continues its trajectory, and it might be worth a quick discussion about this to see what others think.

Otherwise, it's looking good to go!

P.S. Once everything's decided/finalised physics-wise, let me know a deadline and I'll get on a 3-1-3 animation for the Jumper.

[Strato Incendus]

I'd say I'm generally still in favour of some sort of post-Jumper diagonal fall state which continues its trajectory, and it might be worth a quick discussion about this to see what others think.

I agree that in direct comparison to the way the Jumper behaves in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, this can be quite irritating indeed - to suddenly see the Jumper transition back to straight vertical falling.

However, I think anything else would require tumbler physics? And that would be a whole new load of work to implement in NeoLemmix...

[namida]

I'd say I'm generally still in favour of some sort of post-Jumper diagonal fall state which continues its trajectory, and it might be worth a quick discussion about this to see what others think.

This has been ruled out on the grounds of implementation complexity, way back when the Jumper was first proposed for NL.

[Proxima]

To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build, how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?

This was mentioned on discord a while back, but I checked on the newest experimental and it's still true: if a builder is assigned jumper, he will jump during some frames, but during others he will hit his own brick, so the the skill effectively becomes a walker.

I would expect the builder always to jump, even if some special-casing is needed to achieve this.

Somewhat related: On bumpy terrain, a jumper will immediately stop if assigned before a rise of 2 pixels. I can see why this happens, but it feels a bit fiddly, and I wonder if maybe the solution is to relax terrain checks at the start of the jumper's arc -- this might deal with the builder issue as well.

[NieSch]

An idea that occured to me this morning: the jumper skill could make use of the now redundant "boing" exit sound!

Or why not use the "hop" sound from Lemmings 2? I would like that.

[Strato Incendus]

Yes, I would prefer that as well! If the Swimmer has a custom splash sound when he falls into water, the Jumper could use a sound as well.

Then again, it would make sense for the Shimmier to also use that sound. Interestingly, thoughh, Shimmiers in Lemmings 2 don't use the "hop" sound (even though they move along the same arc as Jumpers, just with one arm raised to reach for the ceiling), but the regular assignment sound that gets played when assigning any skill; only Jumpers shout "hop".

[WillLem]

Hmmm. Quite honestly, I'd prefer the "boing" sound. The "hop" sound is a bit subdued.

Could this be made user-customisable?

[Proxima]

All sounds in NL are user-customisable.

Which is one reason not to use the "boing" as default; some users have chosen to keep that as the exit sound.

[WillLem]

All sounds in NL are user-customisable... some users have chosen to keep that as the exit sound.

How? I didn't think it was possible to change the exit sound without creating a different sound file called "yippee" (which then affects all exits)...

[Proxima]

That's what I mean, and yes, it would affect all exits.

[WillLem]

I tried entering a SOUND field into the .scheme file for the default sprites under JUMPER - I can confirm that it doesn't work.

[Dullstar]

I believe they're user customizable in the sense that you have access to the files, which are in common formats, and can therefore swap them out. As far as I know, NeoLemmix doesn't support custom sound effect mods in styles/packs; any modifications made would therefore affect all content.

[namida]

While there's a couple of minor details that still need closer look (one of which is with the editor, so irrelevant to this anyway), I feel the Jumper is stable enough now that I've merged it into the master branch as of commit 99E1A22.

[namida]

To those of you who've tried out the Jumper experimental build, how do you feel about the physics? Any still-remaining bugs you've noticed?

This was mentioned on discord a while back, but I checked on the newest experimental and it's still true: if a builder is assigned jumper, he will jump during some frames, but during others he will hit his own brick, so the the skill effectively becomes a walker.

I would expect the builder always to jump, even if some special-casing is needed to achieve this.

Somewhat related: On bumpy terrain, a jumper will immediately stop if assigned before a rise of 2 pixels. I can see why this happens, but it feels a bit fiddly, and I wonder if maybe the solution is to relax terrain checks at the start of the jumper's arc -- this might deal with the builder issue as well.

The simplest way to handle this would be "on the first frame, if one of the one-pixel steps would cause the lemming to stop jumping, instead of stopping jumping, just skip that one-pixel step. Apply normal terrain checks from the second frame onwards".

Obviously this would need to be tested for undesirable edge cases, and for any bugs that arise with the shadow, but it sounds like the simplest way to approach it. Anyone think there's any issue with this, or have alternate ideas?

EDIT: An alternate option might be to change the order in which the first frame's one-pixel steps are applied. I'll need to look into this one.

[namida]

Changing the order of the first frame's steps (while still remaining fairly logical / consistent) won't be an option here.

In regards to the builder case, all that was needed is to not perform the foot check on the first step of the first frame.

I'm not entirely sure that the 2px wall case should be changed. If the desire is to change it, then the change would be similar here - skipping the foot check at that pixel on the first frame of the Jumper sequence. To simplify the rule, this could simply be "skip the foot check on the first 3 pixels of the Jumper's first frame". (The head checks and wall checks could remain intact, I believe.) To be clear: This isn't a case of "there's a strong reason not to", just "I'm leaning towards don't change it" and I'm certianly open to changing it if the general opinion is otherwise.