Poll

How do you feel about wrap?

I have ideas for puzzles that use it and would like to see it implemented
3 (30%)
I don't have any particular ideas on how to use it, but think it would be cool
2 (20%)
I don't personally see it as useful but do not object to it existing
3 (30%)
I do not think NeoLemmix should support it
2 (20%)
No preference
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]  (Read 10852 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Wafflem

  • Posts: 943
    • View Profile
Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« on: September 30, 2016, 03:16:55 PM »
I remember a long time ago that you wanted to discuss implementing Wrap in more of a Lix manner than the NeoLemmix gimmick manner*. Should we still do this?

*For those who don't know, the NeoLemmix gimmick version involved merely lemmings walking past one side of the level to appear in the opposite side (i.e. if they walk through the left side, they appear on the right, vice versa, and ditto for up-down and down-up), while Lix is more of a scrolling thing - think of it as like as 2-D version of Lemmings Revolution.
YouTube: www.tinyurl.com/YTWafflem
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Wafflem467

Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2016, 08:19:59 PM »
I would actually split the suggested feature into two parts:

Part 1: update the physics to be fully wrap-aware.  Note that it is more than just the gimmick of repositioning the lemming whenever its position gets updated past a wraparound boundary--other things that would need updating include making sure terrain additions (eg. builders) and removal (eg. bashers) are wrap-aware as well, that all terrain/trigger checks in game physics are likewise wrap-aware, and that any terrain pieces and object trigger areas straddling the wraparound boundary are correctly handled when loading the level, etc.

Part 2: update the UI to support wraparound scrolling.

It is possible that maybe part 2 is trivial enough to implement compared to part 1 that there's little point in splitting them out, but I rather suspect part 2 may be enough implementation work of its own, that it could make sense to have an interim version that only does part 1 without doing part 2 yet.  Since NeoLemmix does not support multiplayer, part 2 can be argued as a nice-to-have but not necessarily required, with "pause and scroll all the way to the other side" as a temporary workaround in the meantime.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2016, 08:25:58 PM »
Also, I would like to see some discussion as to how much people feel wrapping physics would add to the game.  I guess vertical wraparound is probably more interesting in terms of adding new puzzle ideas, but either way, how much do they truly add?

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3877
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2016, 07:51:33 AM »
Lix has wrap to balance the multiplayer.

ccexplore's part 1 (physics and terrain drawing is wrap-aware) need a topological abstraction of rectangles (x-length, y-length, has x-wrap? has y-wrap?) that sits deep in the game code. Torus bitmaps implement this abstraction. The torus bitmap class reads more like a mathematical proof than like regular code: Extremely hard to write self-documenting code, therefore lots of comments. Part 1 needs more heavy-lifting for a torus-shaped physics matrix.

ccexplore's part 2 (seamless scrolling) gets finnicky and math-y again. The class knows the camera position and pieces together a scene from the torus bitmap.

Wrap in singleplayer is a by-product. Some levels use it, and it's cute. It's disorienting when you see it only rarely. Hard to weigh the advantages against the elaborate implementation.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 04:48:44 PM by Simon »

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2016, 06:58:17 PM »
I think it could be interesting, but only if it's fully and properly implemented so that it scrolls nicely.

Whether or not it's worth the effort is another question entirely.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3612
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2016, 08:44:12 PM »
Also if you can scroll over the wrap there should be a color-line like in lix to see where the next wrap begins.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2016, 09:02:04 PM »
Also if you can scroll over the wrap there should be a color-line like in lix to see where the next wrap begins.

I'm not sure I understand this. I I think I'd prefer not to have a line like that, it seems kind of tacky imo. Is that really all that helpful? If a level is so big and disorienting that you can't tell where the wrap; that's another matter entirely.
Actually what does this matter, because if the level is wrapping, fully scrolling like in Lix; there essentially is no boundaries on whatever axis it wraps and lemmings cannot die in that direction from walking/falling off the screen. The line could be just about anywhere and make the same sense.

I do not remember any such line in Lix. ???
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3612
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2016, 09:08:22 PM »
The line is essential at least for me in lix. Without it I became confused where the wrap started most of the time. The level did not matter that much.

If there is wrap, there should be at least an option for such a line!

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2016, 09:18:30 PM »
I guess I could also comment on wrap in general;

I don't really care either way, but you can definitely do things with wrap that you cannot otherwise, so it wouldn't be a burden. It must be an option though [to have your level wrap or not]. I don't mind an over abundance of features.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2016, 10:02:26 PM »
I do not remember any such line in Lix. ???

Neither do I, unless this is some sort of new addition in D-lix, as I don't think I've yet looked at a wraparound level in D-lix.  I'm pretty sure C++ lix has no such line, which on paper is how wraparound is meant to feel like--any line in the wraparound dimension(s) would work as just well as any other.  That being said, I suppose it's not unreasonable to maybe make it a user option to show such a line (pick one however the game wants) in the game, if somehow the presence of obvious landmarks like entrances, exits and changes you make to the terrain aren't enough.

Lix does have, in the level preview, indicators to let you know for each of the 2 dimensions whether wrapping is in effect.  But that's totally different from extraneous lines rendered in-game.

Anyway, I thought about it a little more, and at the moment it feels like builders and miners probably have the most compelling cases paired with wraparound.  It still feels like very significant amount of effort for comparatively little gain, compared to say, a new skill or new contraption (at least well-thought-out ones), or even new gimmicks that does not require re-examining multiple fundamental facets of the game's physics.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 11:00:09 AM »
Not saying this feature will be here any time soon but - when you talk about the line showing the wrap boundaries, do you feel these outlines should be in a fixed position, or relative to your current view? Or in other words - let's suppose the blue dot in this image marks the center of your visible play area. Would you prefer the outline be the yellow rectangle (ie: shows the level's width/height outwards from the center of the current viewport) or the red one (ie: shows the boundaries of the level as defined in the level file)?
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3612
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2019, 11:34:03 AM »
As I tend to get easily confused with the yellow rectangle way and speed is not essential as in Lix multiplayer, I would tend to the red rectangle way.

Then we would need another way to tell the player that wrap is active though. ???

I would still say yellow is faster and you need to be fast in MP Lix, but it can get very confusing depending on the level (especially small levels can get confusing). Here in NL we don't need to be very fast and therefore I tend to red.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1754
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 01:25:46 PM »
I think the main upside of the gimmick was that it was optional. Lemmings Revolution basically had all levels wrapping in a Lix manner. If this got introduced into regular NeoLemmix as a default, it would distance it even further from regular Lemmings - while at the same time making it more similar to Lix, instead of having two different games for two different purposes.

I definitely enjoyed the gimmick with both the vertical and the horizontal wrap activated, so I'd be the first one to appreciate its reintroduction! :thumbsup:

Granted, in order to create Lemmings Revolution-style levels, you'd need to have the option to switch on horizontal wrap only without automatically having to activate vertical wrap as well.

So it would probably be best to make both independent, like back in the day, as long as it is clearly visible to the player whether the wrap feature is active or not - I clearly agree with IchoTolot here! ;) The main annoyance about gimmicks was their surprising nature, i.e. the level creator could activate them without the player's knowledge, thereby potentially wasting a lot of the player's time with guesswork.

Maybe present some arrows at the edges of a level at the beginning, together with the arrows below the hatches that show in which directions the lemmings are going to come out?

The main effort in re-implementing the wrap gimmick would probably affect the fencer and shimmier, since those skills didn't exist in NeoLemmix back when gimmicks were a thing.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 05:30:12 PM »
As I tend to get easily confused with the yellow rectangle way and speed is not essential as in Lix multiplayer, I would tend to the red rectangle way.

Then we would need another way to tell the player that wrap is active though. ???

I would still say yellow is faster and you need to be fast in MP Lix, but it can get very confusing depending on the level (especially small levels can get confusing). Here in NL we don't need to be very fast and therefore I tend to red.
The main problem with the gimmick-implementation (which used the red rectangle) was, that one could never be sure where the lemming would reappear when moving out of the level boundary. This made these gimmick levels extremely annoying to play. So I think any reintroduction of this feature would need a way to scroll beyond the level boundaries and allow displaying the yellow area on screen.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2019, 09:00:42 PM »
Quote
If this got introduced into regular NeoLemmix as a default, it would distance it even further from regular Lemmings - while at the same time making it more similar to Lix, instead of having two different games for two different purposes.

NeoLemmix will never be wrap-only, or even wrap-is-default. It will be a feature level designers can use, at their own choice. I personally envision it as horizontal and vertical wrap being separate.

Quote
The main effort in re-implementing the wrap gimmick would probably affect the fencer and shimmier, since those skills didn't exist in NeoLemmix back when gimmicks were a thing.

Close to all (if not literally all) of the old gimmick code has been stripped out altogether, and much of the implementation of the features that do remain has drastically changed since gimmicks existed. I can assure you, the Fencer and Shimmier are no more trouble for such a gimmick than any other skill - actually, at a quick guess, the features I suspect would be most likely to cause trouble here are blockers and zombies; with any objects that are placed across the wrap boundary also being quite an annoyance (though this could be addressed simply by not allowing this.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2019, 09:01:28 PM »
The main problem with the gimmick-implementation (which used the red rectangle) was, that one could never be sure where the lemming would reappear when moving out of the level boundary.

I get your point, though I feel like the minimap can maybe help make it a little easier to work out where the lemming would reappear?

While I can imagine levels being created that could make it tricky to keep track of where the lemming would go, I think in most well-designed levels, there are probably only limited areas where lemmings are expected to cross a wrapping level boundary.  So while I slightly prefer the "yellow rectangle", "true" implementation of wrapping, I can probably live with "red rectangle" as well.

Regardless of red/yellow rectangle, still not sure how much wrapping really adds to singleplayer level design. :-\

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3612
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2019, 09:23:06 PM »
Quote
Regardless of red/yellow rectangle, still not sure how much wrapping really adds to singleplayer level design.

That's another thing: Wrap was rarely used as a gimmick and I can see the benefits are way more multiplayer related than singleplayer. Even in Lix there don't seem to be that many Wrap singleplayer levels, while a good part of the multiplayer levels use it.

So it might be better to ignore Wrap and focus on things that enrich the variety and/or comfort of level design by a much larger margin.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 10:42:20 PM »
Then we would need another way to tell the player that wrap is active though. ???

Sorry but if a player cannot tell the level wraps around... are they dumb? you scroll and it never stops, how long can it take someone to figure out what's going on? When they play for the first time sure, it takes some getting used to like everything but not after that. I never had a problem like this when playing lix. (single or multiplayer).

In any case if this was a feature I'd be okay with (but still not prefer) a rectangle to indicate boundaries but definitely insist this option (in one or any direction).

You can definitely do some interesting things with it, just look at some Lix levels or some from Revolution (bounce around the world, turn on tune in switch on). But I also agree it's not the biggest thing on my list at least that could add fun stuff to the game.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 11:56:55 PM »
Then we would need another way to tell the player that wrap is active though. ???

Sorry but if a player cannot tell the level wraps around... are they dumb? you scroll and it never stops

IchoTolot is specifically talking about the "red rectangle" implementation where the scrolling doesn't wrap.  Scrolling stops at the level boundaries even with wrapping on, it's just the lemmings themselves (and the way they interact with terrain) that will honor the wrapping.  So you can't scroll past the boundaries, but you will see the lemming disappear and reappear on the opposite boundary as they walk across a boundary.  Another way to think of this is like the classic Pac-Man game--as you move off the top you reappear at the bottom, it doesn't scroll to make the area that was at the bottom to show up at the top.

In contrast, the "yellow rectangle" implementation is like in Lix where the scrolling also wraps, so indeed you can "scroll and it never stops".

Starting from an implementation that has no support for wrapping, it is likely less work to get to a "red rectangle" implementation where scrolling doesn't wrap and only the lemmings and physics do, versus the "yellow rectangle" implementation where scrolling also wraps around.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2019, 12:15:41 AM »
oh yes, sorry I forgot about this. Just to clarify (not that I expect this will be implanted anytime soon anyway) I would be strongly against this [wrapping not visible via scrolling]. If there's going to be wrapping; it should be done like Lix; with infinite scrolling possible.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 06:32:33 AM »
I think it's time to consider whether or not wrap is going to happen. I've put a poll up to gauge how much interest there is in it - if there isn't much, we'll get the possibility ruled out now, and if there is enough, it can be added to the list of things to do before NL is wrapped up.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3402
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2020, 07:55:24 AM »
Very much in favour, for 3 reasons:

1. It's a cool effect, and adds a whole new dimension to the game (quite literally) 8-) Having played through most of the wrap levels from Strato's Lemmicks, I'd probably say these are the most enjoyable of all the gimmick levels, and they take some solving! The puzzle potential is off the charts.

2. We should also have SuperLemming back as well (this isn't a reason for Wrap, I know, but I'm very tired)

3. It's possible anyway: invisible teleporter with a 1-frame animation will simulate it well enough. If it was implemented as an actual feature, this would be all the better because it would be much less fiddly to design the level, with the added bonus that it would no longer be seen as misleading because of the invisible teleporters.

Just to open up discussion on this third point: if implemented, should the wrap be visible?

I've endeavoured to make the (currently invisible) teleporters used in the Wraparound levels in Lemminas visible, purely in view of feedback that the use of invisible teleporters to simulate wrap is potentially misleading because wrap is not currently implemented. I've created a custom resizable object that basically just glows gently, and put it around the edge of the level like a frame. At first, I didn't like it and I wished I could just get away with using the darn invisible teleporters, but then after a few minutes of playing the level like this, and just looking at it... it's actually quite mesmerizing and cool, and makes it even more obvious to the player what's happening.

So, maybe visible wrap could work (and players would always know when it's been implemented)... but, non-visible wrap is also acceptable (EDIT - as long as it's made obvious in other ways, such as terrain placement, level title, etc), and would probably ultimately get my vote when it comes down to it.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 08:01:10 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2020, 07:58:18 AM »
Quote
2. We should also have SuperLemming back as well (this isn't a reason for Wrap, I know, but I'm very tired)

This will not be happening.

Quote
Just to open up discussion on this third point: if implemented, should the wrap be visible?

Absolutely. Ideally, the level would essentially scroll infinitely, repeating itself. Failing this, some very clear indication would be given, or perhaps the level display would not repeat itself infinitely but at least be tiled in a 3x3 pattern. An invisible wrap of any kind is out of the question and will not be happening.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3402
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2020, 08:10:01 AM »
This will not be happening.

Poor SuperLemming. He got introduced to us, and then was never seen again... :crylaugh:

Absolutely. Ideally, the level would essentially scroll infinitely, repeating itself.

This could be interesting, but... I can't help but think that implementing the wrap in this way would, in effect, just manifest as an infinitely long (or tall) level with a repeating design.

I can't help but think it would be far better to have it as one-screen, but the lemmings simply walk off one side and back in the other. For this, the wrap would have to be visible. I've attached my custom (resizable) "edge_glow" object so you can give it a look: I recommend making it so that only about 2-4px are visible around the edge, but by all means try it with the full 8px width and see what you think.

(N.B. If you don't like the colour, it can be very easily recoloured and be made more transparent, etc.)

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2020, 09:12:27 AM »
I don't have strong feelings about whether or not to implement wrap, but I would say that infinite scrolling makes it easier to keep track of stuff happening around the level boundaries. I would be against a wrap feature without infinite scrolling.

My expectations would be infinite scrolling and the ability to toggle horizontal and vertical wrapping independently of each other.

In the editor, on wrap levels, terrain pieces overlapping the boundaries should probably appear on the other side, though I'm not sure infinite scrolling would really make sense in the editor.

As many features go, it's hard for me to say if I would use it or not. If it's there and I think of an idea that would benefit from it, I'll use it, but generally I try to avoid making levels purely for the sake of using a particular feature, since historically those tend to be my worst ones (they often don't reach a level of quality I consider acceptable to release anymore). The only reason I created Shimmier Sort for a contest, for example, was because I had a vague level idea that was already close to one of the contest rules. In past contests where I set out from the beginning to create a level for the contest rules, my levels felt very forced - so I don't do that anymore.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3402
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2020, 09:27:44 AM »
Could infinite scrolling be optional, i.e. a checkbox for "Infinite Scrolling For Levels With Wrap Effect" in the F3 options?

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2020, 10:10:20 AM »
I'm definitely open to a user-side option to turn on or off the infinite scrolling. If I can implement it, I want infinite scrolling to at least be available, but yeah - I'm okay with an option to disable it.

Quote
My expectations would be infinite scrolling and the ability to toggle horizontal and vertical wrapping independently of each other.

Yes, I also envision it as the two dimensions being set individually.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1754
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2020, 07:05:50 PM »
Quote
Having played through most of the wrap levels from Strato's Lemmicks, I'd probably say these are the most enjoyable of all the gimmick levels, and they take some solving! The puzzle potential is off the charts.

Thanks for the kind words, WillLem! :thumbsup: Since the Lemmicks levels require both horizontal and vertical wrap, I'm happy to hear namida is considering to enable both independently!

In fact, the wrap gimmick and its puzzle potential was one of the main things that got the idea for Lemmicks started. I actually liked the gimmick so much that I had already tried emulating it in version 10.13 before, in the Pit Lems level "Wraparound revival". It worked in a similar way to your Lemminas level, but both vertically and horizontally (and the teleporters were visible :P ).

So yeah, if it wasn't clear enough, I fully support any re-introduced gimmick we can get! :thumbsup: And I'll happily convert my Lemmicks levels from the Circular rank (=those featuring wrap) to New Formats if this happens! ;)

(I'll probably have to hand these levels from one version of the editor to the next, i.e. from 1.43 to 10.13, from there to 12.6.5, then cleanse levels, then convert to the newest version, but eventually, I'll get there! :D I didn't do this earlier because I thought there was no way these levels would ever become playable in New Formats, obviously...)

"Turn this club around", the only pre-existing song level not featured on the Encore rank from Lemmings World Tour, could then be added to Pit Lems remastered, together with all the other wrap levels! :thumbsup: (It won't be added to World Tour in hindsight, since wrap is not possible in Old Formats, and I want to maintain both versions of this particular pack and keep them as comparable as possible.)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3402
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2020, 11:25:59 PM »
I actually liked the gimmick so much that I had already tried emulating it in version 10.13 before, in the Pit Lems level "Wraparound revival". It worked in a similar way to your Lemminas level, but both vertically and horizontally

Wraparound Part II also has vertical wrap as well as horizontal. ;P

But yes, looking forward to this getting implemented officially rather than having to do the fiddly teleporter workaround!

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2020, 11:44:39 PM »
I'm a little surprised namida didn't outright drop this based on implementation complexity, though perhaps it's helped by having previously implemented (even if long since removed) in some limited form as a gimmick?  Based on Simon's comments on how the implementation went for Lix, even the variant without infinite scrolling seems pretty non-trivial.  Even if you forbid terrain and objects in the level from straddling the bonndaries, the terrain added or removed by lemmings skills you'd probably still want to honor the wraparound.

If anything, feels like a double-speed kind of skill (which I seem to recall namida already ruled out on grounds of implementation and testing difficulties) might be easier implementation-wise--you'd more or less basically just run the regular physics one extra time in the frame for the subset of lemmings that possess double-speed.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2020, 12:22:12 AM »
Quote
If anything, feels like a double-speed kind of skill (which I seem to recall namida already ruled out on grounds of implementation and testing difficulties) might be easier implementation-wise--you'd more or less basically just run the regular physics one extra time in the frame for the subset of lemmings that possess double-speed.

The vast majority of this is changes to the pixel set / test code, and then UI / render stuff. Not much change should be needed to core physics code, so very little chance of unwanted side effects.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3402
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2020, 05:01:20 AM »
Hang on... does this mean Turbo Lemming might happen after all? :excited:

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1754
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2020, 09:22:03 AM »
I think namida is describing the steps to implement wrap here, not SuperLemming... ;)

But I'm not sure, of course.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2020, 09:59:44 AM »
Okay, so poll results suggest very strong interest in this.

This topic can now go back to sleep until work for V12.11.0 begins, which is most likely when I'll look at doing this.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2020, 07:50:59 PM »
From another topic:

Quote
Just whilst it's come up: it's still my general feeling that screen wrap's implementation in-game ought to be the choice of the player: if they'd prefer the level to scroll continuously, that's what they'll see. If they'd prefer a glowing edge and lems walking off one side and reappearing the other, same again.

But yeah, maybe a separate topic to discuss wrap? I think there already is one somewhere...

If I can get it to work, my ideal implementation is the infinite scrolling.

If it isn't too much additional work, I can look at adding the "no infinite scroll, but some other clear indicator is present" (for which the glowing edges is one possible indicator) as a second option. Likewise, if I can't get infinite scrolling to work, the glowing edges is a decent alternative suggestion.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1754
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2020, 07:53:09 PM »
Well, since I'm already trying to emulate Lemmings 2: The Tribes and Lemmings 3D inside NeoLemmix (in separate custom packs), infinite scrolling would enable me to simulate Lemmings Revolution in NeoLemmix... especially if we get portals (=bidirectional, non-release-rate-sensitive teleporters) as well... :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2020, 05:39:11 PM »
Okay, I'd like to decide on whether or not Wrap will happen, before V12.11 is released.

Note that wrap will NOT be a V12.11 feature. It is likely to be V12.14 at the earliest for Wrap to actually happen; possibly 12.13 if very few / only very simple object types get the approval - this is just about making the decision. The reason for this relates to the Laserer - there is a specific detail of Laserer physics that is solely there to account for the future possibility of wrap, specifically the distance limit on the laser's range, and if wrap is not going to happen I would prefer to ditch that limit.

As full disclosure, I am currently leaning towards "no" on this one myself. It's one of those things that feels cool, but has limited actual use - doubly so if portals were to be implemented, which would be able to cover most situations that Wrap would otherwise be needed for. Some people may note that I have previously criticized levels that use teleporters to simulate this. The issue there was not the pseudo-wrap in and of itself, but the use of invisible / don't-look-like-teleporters teleporters to do the job (ie: the actual issue was misleading object designs), or of multiple stacked teleporters (ie: it looks like there's one but you can actually ram several lemmings through it at once because there's several in one spot; portals would by design let lemmings rapidly go through so this would not be an issue there). It would also be a lot of work to implement, and while I don't believe it has zero potential, I'm not convinced it has enough to justify the effort. However, note my wording here - "leaning towards no", not "decided it's not going to happen".

I've put a new poll up as the old one was from a very long time ago, when NL's physics and philosophy were a lot less rigid than they are now. I will note that the old one was very much in favor - almost all "Yes" votes with one or two "no preference".
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3402
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2020, 10:18:06 PM »
I voted yes again, but I will note that I'd much rather have the Laserblaster skill and Portals than Wrap, so - if it comes to the crunch and Wrap is causing too many issues - I'd suggest go with Laserblaster & Portals.

As you've pointed out, Portals can be used to simulate wrap, and they can be designed in such a way as not to be misleading.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3612
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2020, 10:42:22 PM »
I'm in the "I don't personally see it as useful but do not object to it existing" section, but I think our efforts are better put somewhere else.

We can add better things and don't need to rely on this clutter. ;)

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4570
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2020, 11:06:53 PM »
I'm voting "no" because I think portals are a much better idea and they can pretty much do everything that wrap can. Do any of the people who've voted "I have ideas for puzzles that use it" have particular ideas that would only work with wrap and not portals?

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1754
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2020, 12:25:56 AM »
I voted yes; I may not have that many current ideas involving wrap, but it would allow me to convert my wrap levels from Lemmicks to New Formats :thumbsup: . And apart from that, it would allow for the re-creation of Lemmings Revolution solutions. Yes, portals are a part of that as well, but in Lemmings Revolution, portals and the "wrapped" cylinder shape of the levels are two different things. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2020, 12:29:35 AM »
I still hold the opinion that if we're going to have wrap we should have infinite scrolling. This is something that portals can't emulate, thus giving the boundary of the level special treatment, still. Skills would likely behave differently around the boundaries, and lemmings appearing on the other side of the level is harder to visualize than a proper infinite scroll.

The current Laser Blaster implementation would definitely have major problems with small proper wrap levels though - it's already too large in small levels without wrap, IMO.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2020, 12:41:56 AM »
Quote
I still hold the opinion that if we're going to have wrap we should have infinite scrolling.

Agreed, but that is a matter of UI, not physics. We don't have to decide that part now.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2020, 11:55:11 PM »
Okay so - it's a close call on the poll. Slightly in favor of it, although I note that only some of the supporters voted that they have ideas for how to use it.

Wrap would be a significant amount of effort to implement, and it definitely seems like it would be of limited use at best. On top of that, portals are looking like a strong candidate for addition as a new object type, and there is even less that would require wrap if portals are supported.

So I am ultimately making the call here - NeoLemmix is not going to be getting wrap. I realise this might be a disappointing answer, but it simply comes down to that there are more useful things to focus on.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)