Author Topic: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge  (Read 22288 times)

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Offline namida

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Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« on: August 28, 2009, 09:39:59 am »
This is the same as the Minimum Skills topic, except with one difference: You're now trying to save the maximum %, instead of just the requirement. This means for levels where 100% is possible, it's minimum skills to save 100%, and those where it isn't, the maximum known possible %.


 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Rating |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Total | (Old) |
|-------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Fun    |  1 10  3 11  3  2  2  3  3  3  3  5  3  5  9  9  4  5  6 11  3  7  5  3  4  5  5 10 12  2   157 |  120  |
|Tricky |  4  5  8  9  7  8 12 15  9 14  9  9 12 12  3  6  2  3  5  7  9 10 24  7 13  3 10  4  5  8   252 |  184  |
|Taxing |  9  8  9 13 12  4  8  8  3  8 12 10 10 22 11 19  6 12  5  7  7  5 15  6  7 12 12 16  8  7   291 |  242  |
|Mayhem | 28 18  4  4 13  9 13  9 13 29  9  5  6 17 14  2 11 18 21  7 28 14 16  3 12 17  3  7 21 25   396 |  320  |
|-------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Tame   |  2  1  2  1  2  1  3  2  2  1  2  2  3  3  2  2  1  2  4  2                                  40 |   39  |
|Crazy  |  8  5  2  5  8  8  6 13  5 10  1  8  5  9  4  7  8  6  8 13                                 139 |  130  |
|Wild   |  4 12 10 10  9  3  7 21  0  8  8 11  9 10 10  5  6 12 10  4                                 169 |  144  |
|Wicked |  4 14  5 21  4 12  6  9 21 13 11 11 16  6 16  3  6  9  8  8                                 204 |  153  |
|Havoc  | 12 15  6  3  7  3 20 10 21 11 14  9 11 11 16 11 11 15  9 11                                 232 |  190  |
|-------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Xmas 91|  9 11                                                                                        20 |   17  |
|Xmas 92|  1  1 17 14                                                                                  33 |   33  |
|Flurry |  4  3  1  2  1  2  2 10  4 10  3  3  2  4  1  7                                              59 |   54  |
|Blitz  | 14 11  1  2  9  1  7  3 20  3 10  2 13  2 18  4                                             120 |  111  |
|Frost  |  5  3  6  2  2  5 13  1  3  5  3  6  1  7  5  6                                              73 |   63  |
|Hail   |  5  4 25  4 19  0 14  8 10  6  7  6  6 20  3 11                                             148 |  142  |
|-------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Rating |  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Total | (Old) |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 10:02:04 am by Minim »

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 11:10:51 am »
You need to fill the ones which must be solved 100%. I'll give you the levels but I won't fill the skills:
Tricky: 2, 19, 26
Taxing: 3, 8-11, 21-22, 30
Mayhem: 3-4, 6, 11-13, 16, 20-21, 24, 27-28.
Crazy: 2, 4-7, 9, 16.
Wild: 4, 6-9, 16-17.
Wicked: 2-3, 5.
Havoc: 3-6, 9, 11-12, 14, 19.
Xmas '91: 4.
Xmas '92: 3-4.
Frost: 1, 5, 9-11, 13.
Hail: 1, 7-16
Flurry: 1, 8, 13, 15
Blitz: 2-4, 6, 8, 10-11, 14.
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Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 11:56:17 am »
You need to fill the ones which must be solved 100%. I'll give you the levels but I won't fill the skills:
Tricky: 2, 19, 26
Taxing: 3, 8-11, 21-22, 30
Mayhem: 3-4, 6, 11-13, 16, 20-21, 24, 27-28.
Crazy: 2, 4-7, 9, 16.
Wild: 4, 6-9, 16-17.
Wicked: 2-3, 5.
Havoc: 3-6, 9, 11-12, 14, 19.
Xmas '91: 4.
Xmas '92: 3-4.
Frost: 1, 5, 9-11, 13.
Hail: 1, 7-16
Flurry: 1, 8, 13, 15
Blitz: 2-4, 6, 8, 10-11, 14.

Please double-check your lists. At the very least, Taxing 22 and Mayhem 4 do not require 100%.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 12:41:43 pm »
Please double-check your lists. At the very least, Taxing 22 and Mayhem 4 do not require 100%.

minimac94 clearly got his list from the Lemmings Encyclopedia which is based off of the Amiga version, where those 2 levels do require 100%.

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 02:55:25 pm »
Please double-check your lists. At the very least, Taxing 22 and Mayhem 4 do not require 100%.

Sorry, I didn't know Taxing 22 wasn't 100%. Mayhem 4 I was looking at the level solutions.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 10:23:23 pm »
You can also copy over the numbers for any level where no known solution saves more than the required percentage. (Which, of course, includes 100% levels.) Also there are some levels where you don't have to use any extra skills to control the lemmings, and all the skills you use are for creating a path to the exit. This means you can copy over all of Tame, except level 7 where the 2-skill solution leaves some lemmings in the pit on the left.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 01:10:28 am »
Here are a couple of improvements to your list for Fun:

Fun 11: 3
Fun 17 (and Taxing 6): 4 [this is the 100% solution found for Taxing 6, so no replay attached]
Fun 25 and Mayhem 4: 4

I'm doing them in slightly random order, so this doesn't mean there aren't more for Fun.

[edit: silly me, Mayhem 4 can be done with 4 skills too. :-[ I've replaced my Fun 25 solution with the one from Mayhem 4.]

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replays caused by forum migration side effects.]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:48:06 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 04:32:49 am »
Here's Fun 19 100% with 6 skills.

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replay caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:49:05 pm by ccexplore »

Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 08:44:03 am »
While not too impressive, here's Fun 29 100% with 14 skills.

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 11:15:19 am »
Fun 15 and Tricky 3 can both be completed with 100% using 9 skills.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 12:05:29 pm »
Fun 21: 3 skills
Fun 23: 5 skills
Fun 27 and Taxing 22: 5 skills

21 and 23 are pretty much what you'd expect, you've probably seen the various crowd control techniques dozens of times during, say, the "one worker lemming" challenge thread.  So unless you are in a very skeptical or curious mood for some reason, feel free to skip those replays. :P

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replays due to forum migration side effects.]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:49:35 pm by ccexplore »

Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 12:48:37 pm »
I had similar ideas on both, but couldn't get them to work on either.

The Fun 27/Taxing 22 one, on the other hand, is plain impressive.

Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 03:07:28 pm »
I did a few in Tricky.  The only one I think is replay worthy (and even this one isn't that great) is Tricky 12, 100% in 15 skills.

EDIT: And 13, done in 13 skills.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 04:15:10 pm »
I managed to get Tricky 12 done in 11 skills.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 04:23:37 pm »
Well done. You've beaten my attempt at 101 skills. :(
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Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 04:38:38 pm »
I seriously hope that was a joke post, minimac...

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2009, 04:45:19 pm »
Well, actually that was the first time I solved Tricky 12. Try and work it out.

Otherwise, I did Xmas 92 levels 1 and 2 with just 1 skill. No replays, because it's obvious enough.
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Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2009, 05:15:10 pm »
Tricky 9: 12 for the left route, 11 for the right route. (Obviously, the right route one is therefore the one that's been added to the table.) I don't think a replay is nessecary for either.

Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2009, 05:26:51 pm »
Tricky 8 and Taxing 23: 18 skills is my best, might be improvable to 17.

I've done the rest of Tricky as well as I can, some are probably improvable. The exception is Tricky 23 - I know 98% is possible, but doing so is well out of my abilities, so I'll leave this one up to the experts.

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2009, 11:15:09 pm »
Tricky 9: 12 for the left route, 11 for the right route. (Obviously, the right route one is therefore the one that's been added to the table.) I don't think a replay is nessecary for either.

In the regular least-skills thread, I solved Mayhem 6 with 9 skills. This is a 100% level, and the same solution works for Tricky 9. I posted the replay before, but it was in a zip with half a dozen others, so here it is by itself.

[edit 12/22/2019: re-attached missing replays caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 03:11:21 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 11:27:15 am »
I had similar ideas on both, but couldn't get them to work on either.

The Fun 27/Taxing 22 one, on the other hand, is plain impressive.

Thanks, but you updated your table wrong on all four results (Fun 21, 23, 27, Taxing 22).

The exception is Tricky 23 - I know 98% is possible, but doing so is well out of my abilities, so I'll leave this one up to the experts.

I've posted a replay for that one ages ago at the Lemmings Files Archive.  It uses 24 skills (everything but 1 climber), and having tried a few things just now, I'm reasonably sure you can't get by with less.

Similarly, on the Archive I posted some time ago a 16-skills 100% solution for Taxing 23 (and therefore Tricky 8), and having tried a few things just now, so far it appears you can't do better.

LemSteven posted on the challenge thread that Fun 22 100% can be done with 7 skills.  I haven't confirmed this myself yet, only to note that it's not as obvious as it sounds.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 11:48:21 am »
By the way, you'll notice that your table has 13 for Tricky 7 but 12 for Taxing 11.  There's no reason why the solution for Taxing 11 won't work for Tricky 7 also.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 12:26:42 pm »
Similarly, on the Archive I posted some time ago a 16-skills 100% solution for Taxing 23 (and therefore Tricky 8 ), and having tried a few things just now, so far it appears you can't do better.

I lied.  I finally got it to work with 15-skills.  Turns out my earlier failure at this was due to the placement of the bridge by the 3rd lemming, which had inadvertently delayed the 4th lemming by one frame, enough to make a critical difference for the 5th lemming.

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replays caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:22:23 pm by ccexplore »

Offline Pooty

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2009, 03:47:40 pm »
I've beaten Fun 22 in 7 skills, though I wouldn't have come up with this idea if LemSteven didn't post that challenge.

I've also done Tricky 11 in 12 skills and Taxing 24 in 6 skills.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2009, 09:16:08 pm »
I've also done Tricky 11 in 12 skills

If you play this right, you can do without the "safety net" and save a builder here.

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2009, 09:30:07 pm »
Does that mean that you solved Tricky 11 with 11 skills?
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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2009, 09:42:11 pm »
If there's one thing i'm not, it's a master of the release rate. Hang on, i'll try again.

[Edit] Reduced to 11 skills. Thanks, Clam Spammer. :)
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2009, 09:51:32 pm »
I did Xmas 92 levels 1 and 2 with just 1 skill. No replays, because it's obvious enough.

So why don't you put them in?
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2009, 02:57:44 am »
Here's Tricky 22 100% at 11 skills.

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replay caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:23:28 pm by ccexplore »

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2009, 04:11:04 am »
Maybe he just wanted to point them out?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2009, 12:56:43 pm »
Here's Tricky 22 100% at 11 skills.

...and here's Tricky 5 100% at 8 skills.  (If you've seen Fun 21, this should look very familar.)

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replay caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:26:11 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2009, 01:38:58 pm »
Fun 28 100% can be done in 10 skills.  I really don't think you need the replay for this one (but it's attached anyway).

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replay caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:26:55 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2009, 09:41:17 pm »
Fun 29 100% at 13 skills, and Mayhem 9 (the repeat) 100% at 14 skills.  They are basically the same solution, just that for Mayhem 9, the lack of miners necessitates an extra builder (more precisely, just a single build brick) to allow the blocker be freed using a basher instead.

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2009, 12:38:17 am »
Tricky 12 can be done with 10:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Tricky 14 can be improved to 12 with a bit of release rate meddling and a bit of luck (although given the sheer number of possibilities, it was bound to work out somehow). Replay attached.
Tricky 25 takes 13 skills by the ceiling route which I introduced on the old forums. I don't remember if I ever uploaded my replay for this, or if anyone ever figured it out...


Quote from: table
Tricky 24: 6
This is the score for Taxing 24 (as mentioned by Pooty), not Tricky. Could you fix this please? Also, the same may apply to level 27 as well, though I'm not sure.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2009, 12:58:25 am »
Tricky 12 can be done with 10: Direct drop onto the exit.

I regret to inform you that this is neither necessary nor the most efficient (well okay, unless if there's something clever in your solution that could improve mine, or vice versa).  Here's 9 skills.

Also, there's a typo in your post when you said Tricky 14 can be improved to 14, when you mean 12.

Good job on Tricky 25 though, I haven't tried that yet.

[edit: re-attached missing replay caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:30:18 pm by ccexplore »

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2009, 01:23:38 am »
Oops, I'll fix that (Tricky 14).

I regret to inform you that this is neither necessary nor the most efficient (well okay, unless if there's something clever in your solution that could improve mine, or vice versa).  Here's 9 skills.

I'm feeling too lazy right now to optimise. I thought one skill off was a worthwhile contribution. :)

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2009, 01:43:59 am »
I'm feeling too lazy right now to optimise. I thought one skill off was a worthwhile contribution. :)

I'm just curious whether your solution was just mine but a little off, or instead a totally different approach that couldn't be made to do better than 10.  (As you can tell, I assumed the latter and was offering my sympathies on any time wasted on your part, so to speak. ;))  It's always a risk with this sort of challenge, where there are sometimes multiple approaches that aren't obviously better or worse on the outset, and sometimes one picks the "wrong" one to optimize on and forgets to re-check the alternative approaches.

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2009, 02:12:20 am »
No, mine was completely different. What I did was make a lemming climb out, dig at the edge and build twice to set up a direct drop, and then mine down. After using 3 floaters and 2 builders at the start (no one seems to have found a better way to do this), it's unlikely this solution will work with less than 10 skills.

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2009, 02:32:45 am »
Quote from: table
Tricky 24: 6
This is the score for Taxing 24 (as mentioned by Pooty), not Tricky. Could you fix this please? Also, the same may apply to level 27 as well, though I'm not sure.

Ah.  So here's the real Tricky 24 result:  7 skills.  [Note: you need to place the blockers (particular the left one) with care to ensure their field alignments are favorable.]

[edit: on second thought, you don't need the left blocker, its function can be replaced by another set of 3 skills that does not have alignment requirements and no need for removal actions.]

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replay caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:35:19 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2009, 11:14:45 am »
Tricky 28 100% can be done with 4 skills.  Hint:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Taxing 29 (and therefore also Tricky 3) 100% can be done with 8 skills.  It is basically just a straightforward optimization of the standard solution.  Some hints:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing replays caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:37:47 pm by ccexplore »

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2009, 04:28:43 am »
Since no one else is likely to try it, I'm going to get Hail 6 out of the way now.  Here's a solution for Hail 6 saving the maximum possible (57%, or 46 saved) without using the blocker (ie. 0 skills).

(For explanation of why 57% is the maximum possible, see this post.)

As before, I used purely the relationship between RR and lemming spacing to work out the solution, no computer simulations (even the kind where you make use of the Lemmix text replays) needed.  The original blocker solution conceptually divides the savable lemmings into 3 single-position groups, and try to compress them all neatly into one of the 3 groups.  The blockerless solution here instead recognizes that the later the lemming comes out, the less precise you need to compress it to an "optimal" position, because of the increasing extra time they have to walk to the exit.

The zip file contains (in addition to the Lemmix replay) a text file explaining the basic strategy noted above, as well as an explicit "English" solution telling you when exactly to change the RR to what.

[edit 11/30/2019: re-attached missing zip file caused by forum migration side effects]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 12:40:05 pm by ccexplore »

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2009, 10:55:12 pm »
Crazy 1: 5 (tried very hard to do it with 4 but I don't think it works)

Is this for 98% or 100%? I'm not sure if you're aware, but 100% is possible on this level.

@namida: Could you please add the maximum % records to the first post? Also it might be a good idea to add a * to the score for any level where 100% can't be saved.

I'll see if I can find these records and post them here to make it easier, hang on a second...
Okay, here they are, as far as I know.

[EDIT: these have been moved to the first post.]

Offline Pooty

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2009, 08:30:59 pm »
I've improved Tricky 11 to 10 skills using a slightly different approach.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline MASTER-88

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2011, 07:30:00 pm »
Thats pretty much same topic i create a today. But i can see points on SNES only. I see there is tons version difference between versions.

Mayhem 21 is possible with few items used on genesis versions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCO3YjIAmmM

But yeah this doesn´t work on SNES.  Did you used PC versions?
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Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2011, 09:01:44 am »
As I just posted here, Taxing 1 takes 9 skills for 100%.

Taxing 7 takes 8 skills, same as for the regular least-skills thread (the max-% record for this one is 98%)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2011, 02:57:47 pm »
The table has 9 skills for Fun 20 100%, but after looking at the level I'm rather skeptical.  The non-100% min-skill solution is 8 skills via the ceiling route, with 7 skills already spent at creating the path.  I'm hard pressed to see how to control 100% of the crowd with that method using only 2 skills.  (And the normal route of course needs 9 just to create the path, and you aren't even fast enough to build over the first gap!)  Even 10 for Fun-20 100% I'm unsure (but will keep thinking and see if there's a way), so far I can only confirm 11-skills (doesn't even use the ceiling route btw, but does use a glitch).  I also see no mention of anyone actually reporting on Fun 20 in any posts on this thread.

Or did I overlook something really simple?

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2011, 12:27:10 am »
Looks to me like you need 11 skills for 100%. Maybe we ought to adopt a policy of "replay or it didn't happen" :P

Another level I'm not sure about is Crazy 1. Someone posted a result of 5 skills (without a replay :-\), but the poster might not have been aware that 100% is possible on that level. There are a few old replays floating around for 100% on Crazy 1, but each uses 8 or more skills.

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2011, 07:42:02 am »
While we're doing max % challenges, we should continue this one too. For starters, there's the 'max % = required %' levels I listed here, some of which aren't in the results. Specifically:
Crazy 10: 10 skills
Wicked 16: 3
Blitz 16: 4
Frost 6: 6

A couple more things we need to sort out:
- The 'disputed' results mentioned in two posts immediately above this one
- Update Wicked 9 to 100% (it wasn't attempted yet anyway, but the max % list in the OP should be updated before anyone tries for the wrong %)
(edit) - Taxing 1 with 9 skills (3rd post above this one)

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2011, 08:06:37 pm »
Hah, no wonder this challenge was abandoned - the next level is a real stinker :evil:

Here's Taxing 4 100% with 14 skills. 15 is easily done by holding everyone in a digger pit at the right and using an builder to release them at the end, but with much jiggery-pokery (which would take an entire text file to explain :P) you can achieve just enough compression to avoid using this extra builder, and dodge the wall traps with the crowd walking back and forth.

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2011, 01:26:37 am »
The next two are easy, both can be taken from regular solution to 100% without any extra skills, or even any more effort.

Taxing 5: 12
Taxing 12: 10

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2011, 11:16:30 pm »
('before' refers to the original least-skills challenge)

More Taxing:

13: 10, two extra skills are needed to free the blocker, and no-blocker approaches aren't efficient enough.
14: 22, as before (thanks to LemSteven for this one)
15: 11, same as before. I don't know if I ever posted a replay for this one, so here it is. Release rate jiggery-pokery has never been so boring! :P
20: 9, two more than before. You need one extra skill (climber) to avoid losing a lemming at the start, and another one towards the end so no lemmings turn back (previously you could get through two walls with a single well-placed basher).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2011, 03:50:48 am »
Fun 29 100% at 13 skills, and Mayhem 9 (the repeat) 100% at 14 skills.  They are basically the same solution, just that for Mayhem 9, the lack of miners necessitates an extra builder (more precisely, just a single build brick) to allow the blocker be freed using a basher instead.

Found a better method so that Mayhem 9 100% also achievable with 13 skills.  See the "6 builder" solution attached at this post.

The earlier Fun 29 100% also improved to 12 skills via miners.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2012, 06:20:20 pm »
Some levels have very limited choice in methods for saving the maximum possible, so the results can be read off the now-complete "skills you need for maximum %" challenge. I think the following fall into this category, but one of the experts should look over my list before I add them:

Taxing 18 -- 12 ("skills you need" says 10 builders, but min-skills also uses the floater and basher)
Taxing 28 -- 16 (1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner)
Mayhem 10 -- 31 (1 climber, 3 floaters, 1 blocker, 20 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers)
Wild 5 -- 9 (2 bombers, 3 blockers, 4 builders)
Wild 13 -- 9 (2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner)
Wild 18 -- 12 (2 bombers, 10 builders)
Wicked 1 -- 4 (1 bomber, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger)
Wicked 4 -- 24 (4 climbers, 1 bomber, 18 builders, 1 basher)
Wicked 7 -- 6 (4 bombers, 2 blockers)
Wicked 9 -- 21 (1 floater, 20 builders)
Wicked 10 -- 13 (1 floater, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 1 digger)
Wicked 12 -- 11 (1 bomber, 2 blockers, 7 builders, 1 miner)
Wicked 17 -- 6 (6 builders)
Wicked 19 -- 8 (6 builders, 2 bashers)
Wicked 20 -- 8 (1 blocker, 6 builders, 1 digger)
Havoc 2 -- 15 (1 climber, 1 floater, 11 builders, 2 diggers)
Havoc 7 -- 26 (10 climbers, 10 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 2 diggers)
Havoc 10 -- 11 (2 climbers, 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 miners, 2 diggers)
Havoc 13 -- 11 (9 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner)
Havoc 15 -- 19 (17 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger)
Havoc 16 -- 11 (1 climber, 8 builders, 2 miners)
Havoc 17 -- 11 (1 blocker, 7 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger)

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2012, 03:17:21 am »
Added Clam's Mayhem 26 result from the other topic.

I made a couple of improvements to this solution (saved 2 blockers), reducing it to 17 skills.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2012, 06:59:41 am »
Wicked 4 -- 24 (4 climbers, 1 bomber, 18 builders, 1 basher)

I verified 21 skills while working on Wicked 4 for the other topic.  Note that the final result I posted there is based on two different solutions, which is why the result here is 21 skills instead of 19.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2012, 12:50:06 pm »
Quote from: Clam Spammer
I made a couple of improvements to this solution (saved 2 blockers), reducing it to 17 skills.

Aha, so that's what ccexplore meant with his cryptic comment on the old forums about "one key place where you can build just once to seal up". Yeah, I never found that, I just took the less efficient but more fun route :P

I've filled in a few more for myself -- Taxing 16, Taxing 27, Mayhem 2 by looking at ccexplore's skill reduction replays to see which used the fewest skills in total, and Taxing 26 since I was able to match Clam's minimum skills for any % result.

Mod Edit: Corrected name of replay referring to Taxing 26.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:23:57 pm by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2012, 04:56:03 pm »
A few more easy results:

Wild 10 needs three more skills to make a dig pit and release the crowd; with so few skills available, I see no other option.
Wild 11 needs one more skill. Make the climber float to the exit, and use a lemming from the crowd to do the mining.
Wild 20 needs one more to stop the second lemming falling through the gap.
Wicked 14 needs two more to free the blocker; a 6-skill no blocker solution also exists.
Blizzard 15 needs four more, to make two more lemmings climbers and floaters.
Frost 3 needs one more: dig and build on the left instead of blocking.
Frost 16 needs one more to stop the athlete walking out on the left.
Hail 3 needs two more. Place a blocker at the start of the first basher's tunnel. After bridging between the "X" and "M", have the worker lemming mine to release the blocker and crowd; then when they turn back at the "M", there's enough time for the worker lemming to complete the route before the crowd catch him up again.

With my Hail 5 result from the other topic, that's Hail complete!  :thumbsup:

Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2012, 09:17:46 pm »
Blizzard 7 with 7 skills. With sliding unavailable since it leaves one behind, this looks like an unimprovable result.

Also, Flurry 14 with 4, and Clam's Flurry 16 replay improved to leave out the floater, for a total of 7 skills.

To finish off Flurry, 9 seems to need two more skills (dig/build on the left; the Crazy 8 trick doesn't work here), and 10 also needs two more, replacing the blocker with a dig pit and build to release. (Using just a dig/build fails, since you can't delay the crowd long enough to build over both gaps.)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 12:23:13 am »
Tricky 28 is now down to 4 skills.  Just to the right of the entrance there is a spot where a lemming can build such that (1) the bridge combined with the existing twig act as a wall to the left-facing lemmings, and (2) the builder does not turn around.

Offline Clam

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2012, 10:30:06 am »
On Flurry 9, there's a spot where you can dig far enough to make a wall that turns the lemmings, then turn it into a basher which stops by itself (see the 'basher-planning' bit in this post). This gets you 100% with 4 skills.

Also saved a skill on Flurry 10 (now 10 skills), by bridge-stretching to reach the middle island with two builders, and then using the third (you need 3 to get onto the platform in any case) to isolate another lemming, which then has time to build to the end.

Funny that you should mention the Crazy 8 trick (I presume you mean mining into the terrain hole), and then Tricky 28 - where you can perform this trick thanks to a missing terrain pixel just below the entrance ;). The builder works fine too though, good find :)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2012, 09:12:28 pm »
Frost 6 done with 5 skills rather than 6 as everyone has assumed all along, thanks to a rather straightforward solution found as part of this challenge.  (See this post for attached replay.)

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2013, 03:25:02 pm »
Thanks to Proxima for labelling this challenge incomplete. I have filled in some of the slots, but some of them I'm sure will be improvable.

Here's what I've got for Mayhem, Crazy and Wild:

Mayhem
5 & 23: 18
7: 14
8: 9
17: 12
19: 13
22 & 25: 16
30: 38

Crazy
8 & 20: 13
12 & 19: 8
13: 5
18: 6

Wild
2: 12
3, 14, 15 & 19: 10

I also did Wicked 6 in 12 skills and Wicked 8 in 9 skills.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge (Incomplete)
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2013, 04:39:31 pm »
Thank you!  :thumbsup:

Do you have a replay for Wicked 6?

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge (Incomplete)
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2013, 07:34:48 pm »
Oh sorry, but I don't. :-[ This one might need to be checked in case the blockers need to be used (Which is highly doubtful as you need 100% for this challenge anyway). LemSteven made a proof that initially came from these posts. I haven't seen a replay about this at all, and couldn't do this myself. If someone would do a replay, that would be useful.

Anyway, I'm still clearing up, and found out a couple more results:

Wicked
13: 19
15: 20
18: 12

Havoc
1: 14
8: 10
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Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge (Incomplete)
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2013, 03:42:24 pm »
OK, some more results today to close out ONML and Christmas Lemmings

Wicked 11: 11 skills (See LemSteven's post here.)
Havoc 18: 15 skills
Frost 7: 13 skills

Xmas 91
1: 9
2: 11
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Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge (Incomplete)
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2013, 10:24:15 am »
And finally, the Original Lemmings levels:

Taxing 17: 9
Mayhem 14: 18
Mayhem 15: 14
Mayhem 18: 20

All done! Although I really didn't want to triple post. >:(
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge (Incomplete)
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2014, 08:15:12 am »
My 1-climber solution to Havoc 7 for the "What are the skills you need for maximum %" thread also improves the result here, so that level is now down to 20 skills.

Edit 11 Jun 2018: Down to 19 skills.  I originally thought I needed a floater get the left group spaced out properly, but I found a way to avoid it:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 04:20:49 am by LemSteven »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2019, 08:45:08 am »
Tricky 22 improved to 10 skills thanks to MASTER-88's superior record for that level on SNES, which also works on DOS (Lemmix replay attached).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2019, 01:00:14 am »
Tricky 5 improved to 7 skills thanks to MASTER-88's discovery on how to get through the final ball using only one basher.  This is otherwise same solution as the 8 skills one.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2019, 07:36:20 am »
Taxing 8 (repeat of Tricky 5) also improved to 8 skills for exact same reason as above.  I just forgot to test that level earlier today.  It's probably the same solution now as MASTER-88's, minus the fact that SNES needs 3 rather than 2 builders to reach the island before the exit.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2019, 12:21:34 pm »
Taxing 17 improved to 6 skills.  I'm just glad it didn't take tons more tries to get something that works out, it wasn't clear at all whether it's really possible to not do crowd control on this level, but luckily I got it working.

Not really feeling motivated to try to adapt this to SNES.  All the details have to change because the miner on SNES stops mining earlier relative to the steel block (it has better steel detection for the miner).  So right off the bat even the correct release rate number to use will change, and if the initial width of the crowd walking area doesn't end up dividing evenly (it's great that on DOS, you can end up with a width of 150, resulting in a cycle of 300 nicely divisible by 25, which maps to RR 56 or 57), you might even have to do the annoying per-lemming tweaking of release rate to get things to work out.  Plus the SNES miner itself moves a little different, so finding the right place to start mining will also differ.  It's even entirely plausible that you might run out of time thanks to that version's faster timer.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2019, 06:06:40 pm »
Mayhem 17 with 11 skills confirmed in DOS.  It's embarrassingly simple, to the point that I'm amazed nobody found this 10 years ago.

Hint: (click to show/hide)


Mayhem 18 with 18 skills is also confirmed in DOS - 8 skills for the right half, and 10 skills for the left.  There is a small offset in the terrain that allows a lemming from the top right group to perform the tasks for the bottom right group, thereby saving a climber (along with another skill usage later on to prevent said climber from climbing off the right side of the level).  See attached screenshots for details.

Note that this is a 13 builder solution, which also improves the result for "What skills do you need for 100%".
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 07:38:49 pm by LemSteven »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2019, 11:41:37 pm »
Mayhem 22 with 14 skills is confirmed in DOS.  There's lots of pixel-precise builder assignments in this one, but fortunately they all occur early in the level.  Screenshots are attached, even though I'm pretty sure this is largely identical to MASTER-88's SNES solution (I haven't viewed his videos; I'm attempting to solve these on my own).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 02:29:36 am by LemSteven »

Offline MASTER-88

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2019, 01:59:11 am »
Quote
I'm pretty sure this is largely identical to MASTER-88's SNES solution (I haven't viewed his videos; I'm attempting to solve these on my own).

My solution use little bit different builiding route and skills, but you really figured out those builders into ground. Congrats.:)
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2019, 01:34:39 am »
I finally confirmed Mayhem 23 with 16 skills in DOS.  It was nothing intuitive or obvious, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something substantially easier.  Anyway, here's the solution.

Solution (click to show/hide)


Mayhem 25 with 13 skills is also confirmed in DOS.  It's pretty straightforward, except for the use of a steel glitch in the beginning.

Solution (click to show/hide)


Taxing 20 is down to 7 skills in DOS, beating the SNES record by 1.  The critical point is right at the beginning, where the first obstacle can be cleared with just a digger and a builder, while leaving enough terrain in place to block left-facing lemmings.  This allows the right side to be completed with just 2 bashers.  See attached screenshots.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 03:31:20 am by LemSteven »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2019, 09:28:44 pm »
Apparently I didn't push my own method far enough.  Mayhem 25 is now down to 12 skills.

Solution (click to show/hide)

This solution will also work for Tricky 13.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 12:44:25 am by LemSteven »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2019, 02:24:11 pm »
Mayhem 5 improved to 13 skills on DOS.  Actually not sure where that previously reported 18 came from.  I had a Lemmix replay on my computer that was marked as "4 blockers, 5 builders, no bashers" that is also a lose 4 solution and takes 14 skills.  Yet I can't quite place which challenge that was ever posted to, or if it was ever actually posted at all.  At the same time I don't think I actually see any replays attached for the level that takes 18 skills?

Anyway, attached the 13-skill max % solution here.  It doesn't work on SNES because of difference in digger mechanics, 14 likely remains the record for that version.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2019, 02:51:10 pm »
18 comes from Minim's post here. Interest in the Challenges board had died out at the time, so Minim filled in all the gaps to the best of his ability, but all these results are suspect and would benefit from looking over by an expert.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #78 on: December 25, 2019, 12:52:32 pm »
Mayhem 30 now has a "real" result to replace the 38:  25 skills.  It's just the 23-skill solution for the min-skill (without 100%) challenge, tweaked slightly (though not trivial) to efficiently handle crowd holding and release.

Note that this is a little bit different from MASTER-88's 25-skill SNES solution, which doesn't work as-is on DOS for two key reasons:

1) DOS level is actually different from SNES.  On the left side, there is a part that on SNES only requires 5 builders to get across, on DOS it takes 7 builders, because the length across is longer (the island in between at the bottom, with the bear trap, is longer as well).

2) On SNES it is possible on the right side, to build into the right boundary of the level, and the boundary will turn around lemmings.  That doesn't work on DOS.

The overall route though is basically the same, so there is a chance the SNES solution could adopt some methods used in this DOS solution to reduce its skill count by either 1 or 2, depending on whether those methods can be made workable with the somewhat different miner on SNES.

[edit: re-upload replay with simplified handling of right side compared to what was done with the original 23-skill non-100% solution, so that much less precision is required, for same total skill count.  This also makes it all but certain that SNES can reduce skill count by at least 1.]
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 01:32:21 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #79 on: December 27, 2019, 10:30:48 am »
Confirmed Mayhem 7 13 skills and Mayhem 14 17 skills.  Not particularly challenging once you start looking for it knowing it may be possible (in this case from MASTER-88's SNES results).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2019, 10:04:22 am »
Reduced Tricky 11 to 9 skills.  Thanks to MASTER-88 for alerting that it is possible.  I didn't look at his video before trying it out so it's slightly different than how he did it on SNES, but still basically same trick and overall solution.

I don't have Pooty's replay of the 10-skill solution, but I believe the 9-skill solution is basically a variant of his 10-skill solution, using a new-ish trick to set up the climber using less skills.  I think people have some awareness of the trick before, but I don't remember whether any previous challenge solutions had ever made use of it like here.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2020, 07:51:22 am »
Improved Taxing 4 to 13 skills.  I finally found a way to efficiently trigger sliding glitch for profit here, as well as found a better way to do the mining at the top so that less builders are needed to complete the path to exit.

Thanks to MASTER-88 for indirectly inspiring this.  The failure to adapt the former 14-skill DOS record solution (by Clam) to SNES spurred me to take another look at trying to use sliding glitch again, which I had always been aware was a possibility, but until now could never find a way to do it efficiently enough skill-wise here to beat Clam's record.  Also thanks to LemSteven, whose handling of Tricky 28 for this challenge thread directly inspired me the idea to try something vaguely similar here, for the builder that would trigger the glitch.

I'll discuss adapting this solution to SNES on MASTER-88's thread, but it looks possible even if some details might have to change slightly.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2020, 11:45:12 am »
Improved Mayhem 10 to 29 skills.  This may be the first time we've looked at this level specifically for this challenge, as opposed to just taking an existing solution from one of the other challenges.

One obvious thing to explore is ceiling route, but that turns out actually not great, the shape of the ceiling really works against you forcing you to use more builders than you'd like, plus it also costs a lot of builders to set up, at the upper area only, a holding system for the crowd--especially since the ceiling route takes up a basher, so you don't even have enough leftover skills to use 2 blockers (and still be able to free them both), you can only use 1 blocker.  My testing seems to show that any ceiling route solution would end up using either all builders or at best maybe 1 less than all.

So instead, the improved solution here is yet another floor route building to the right exit, like the other two lose-2 solutions previously presented.

I'm still wondering whether maybe it's worth trying to use sliding glitch twice, the second time to slide the crowd up from bottom of the exit-holding pillar.  From the one-blocker solution, we know there's one natural place that can be easily used to compress the crowd without using a second blocker (that you won't have enough skills left to free).  But it takes multiple builders to later release the crowd from that location, which may well cancel out trying to use less builders by using sliding glitch.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2020, 07:03:08 am »
We finally discovered that Mayhem 19 can actually lose only 2 rather than 3.  This invalidates the previous results here for lose-3.  For now I've put in the result of 21 from the replay I've made so far for the lose-2 solution.  Though I suspect it might be possible to use 1 or maybe even 2 less builders, will try later and see.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 07:09:06 am by ccexplore »

Offline MASTER-88

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2020, 01:52:28 pm »
Quote
I finally confirmed Mayhem 23 with 16 skills in DOS.  It was nothing intuitive or obvious, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something substantially easier.  Anyway, here's the solution.

I finally read this post when i read posts in this topic. I personally never figured out you can use slide glitch in this level max-% points min skills challenges.

My SNES solution which also was done 16 skills is done totally glitch free. Its use one little trick which could be pretty hard figured out, but im not called that real glitch. It just thing how i can continue building without web stopping it, but still break way pass lemming groups. My solution was also totally blocker free.

However this level could be different on DOS version. This sounds you did starting this level very different way than i did it my SNES. End part sound just like same way what i did.

EDIT:
About DOS version there is two levels which might be worth watching better. Taxing 2 & Mayhem 1: Spoiler alert:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:23:50 pm by MASTER-88 »
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2020, 06:48:12 am »
Improvements for both Taxing 2 and Mayhem 1 are confirmed in DOS.  Taxing 2 with 7 skills is actually pretty straightforward - first 3 lemmings dig, RR 99, then bash twice and build twice to the exit.  The crowd has enough walking space to render any sort of crowd control unnecessary.

Mayhem 1 with 27 skills just barely works, using 2 floaters, 24 builders, and 1 digger.  A screenshot of the left side of the level is attached.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 06:56:02 am by LemSteven »

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2020, 11:32:04 pm »
This is not an improvement per se, but I finally confirmed 12 skills for Wicked 6.

Previously this result was unconfirmed, but assumed based on a combination of ccexplore doing the left side of the level with 5 skills and me doing the right side of the level with 7 skills.  After a long look at the level this afternoon, I have finally figured out the 5-skill solution for the left side, and put the two sides together to confirm the long-suspected 12-skill 100% solution.

Offline EricLang

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2020, 10:29:36 pm »
I was wondering if this solution was known.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2020, 10:08:54 am »
I had another look at Minim's post (and the three posts following it) listing levels that had not been looked at at the time. It seems that nearly all the Original levels from that post have since been looked at, the only exceptions being Mayhem 8 and 15. So it would be good to get a confirmed result for those two.

There hasn't been any more progress on the ONML levels, other than the Wicked 6 result, which is really nice to have confirmed at last.

Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2020, 07:00:16 pm »
Mayhem 8, I can't even reproduce Minim's result, let alone beat it. The best I can manage is 10 skills - three to contain + release the crowd, three builders to cross the gap. It seems you then need at least four to get past the wall without losing any lemmings (the easiest way being 2 climbers + 2 diggers). You can't cross the gap in such a way that you can do a builder-miner combo to both get partway through the block and release the crowd.

Mayhem 15 on the other hand, I can confirm (but not beat) 14 skills. This is not at all difficult to do.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2020, 10:48:47 pm »
Mayhem 8, I can't even reproduce Minim's result, let alone beat it. The best I can manage is 10 skills - three to contain + release the crowd, three builders to cross the gap. It seems you then need at least four to get past the wall without losing any lemmings (the easiest way being 2 climbers + 2 diggers).

I don't have time at the moment to try this out, but it seems to me that you should be able to get past the wall with just 1 climber + 2 diggers.  There should be plenty of time for the one climber to climb up, dig down, and repeat.

Offline namida

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #91 on: March 11, 2020, 12:19:34 am »
Mayhem 8, I can't even reproduce Minim's result, let alone beat it. The best I can manage is 10 skills - three to contain + release the crowd, three builders to cross the gap. It seems you then need at least four to get past the wall without losing any lemmings (the easiest way being 2 climbers + 2 diggers).

I don't have time at the moment to try this out, but it seems to me that you should be able to get past the wall with just 1 climber + 2 diggers.  There should be plenty of time for the one climber to climb up, dig down, and repeat.

Ah yep - I overlooked this, because I couldn't figure out how you'd get the lemming back to mine out the crowd.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #92 on: March 11, 2020, 07:02:09 am »
Here is my 9-skill 100% solution to Mayhem 8 if anyone needs it.
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Offline MASTER-88

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #93 on: March 11, 2020, 11:54:35 am »
Quote
More Taxing:

13: 10, two extra skills are needed to free the blocker, and no-blocker approaches aren't efficient enough.

Just quickly look DOS 10 skills solution replay first time. Okay thats look DOS will requires use blocker and SNES could make this starting different skills using miner, digger and builder. However its still take same amount skills as DOS blocker strat. I pick up one thing about DOS which is used my SNES solution and if this might work you might can make 9 skills solution also DOS version. Im not are test out this on DOS yet,  but i might test later if someone else didn´t.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EDIT:
Okay i just see this is tested and mention my SNES topic and its seems its won´t work :P

Quote
13: 10 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES).  Expected:  due to a bug in DOS, you cannot mine left-to-right the one-way wall just before the exit (miner will stop even though it's in same direction as the arrows), instead you have to mine down starting further left to get below it, then bash.  Hence the extra skill usage.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 01:39:20 pm by MASTER-88 »
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2020, 12:04:37 am »
Crazy 8 improved to 11 skills.  This is the 4-builder solution that ccexplore found waaaaay back in 2005.

Besides the four builders, the solution also uses a blocker, 3 bashers, 2 miners, and a digger.



Offline ccexplore

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2020, 08:05:17 am »
I had another look at Minim's post (and the three posts following it) listing levels that had not been looked at at the time. It seems that nearly all the Original levels from that post have since been looked at, the only exceptions being Mayhem 8 and 15. So it would be good to get a confirmed result for those two.

Those two match MASTER-88's current records for SNES, which have proven to be very good effort.  So while it's always possible something might be overlooked and we end up finding some better way, for now those records for DOS will likely stay.

[edit: sorry for delayed reply.  I've basically ignored all challenge threads for past 2 weeks since the computer I play the games on is out of action waiting for a replacement part to arrive.  That has finally been sorted out today.]

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2020, 05:49:27 pm »
A couple more improvements in Crazy:

Crazy 12: 6 skills - See this post from Clam
Crazy 19: 7 skills - This is the ceiling route, using the release rate and the long basher tunnel to create a large gap in the crowd, allowing the basher to finish the bridge over the OWW before anyone overtakes him.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2020, 10:26:46 pm »
Wicked 13 is now down to 16 skills.  See attached screenshot.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2020, 01:16:32 am »
I looked over the rest of Minim's ONML results, and came up with the following improvements:

Wicked 15: 16 skills - I haven't viewed ccexplore's replay, but the 8-builder solution I worked out also required 3 bashers, 2 miners, 2 blockers, and a floater, for a total of 16.

Wicked 18: 9 skills - see attached screenshot.  This one required some clever skill placement; see details below.
Wicked 18 Solution Details (click to show/hide)

Havoc 1: 12 skills - The ceiling route.  See attached screenshot.

Offline Minim

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2020, 10:01:28 am »
Nicely done on Wicked 18! :thumbsup: Looking at the image and trying to copy your solution, I struggled pulling this off, because I used your three leftmost builder placements first with the two lemmings. They kept ending up in the cave on the right. That tiny builder you made into the stalagmite I thought was a right builder but it turns out it wasn't. I did get there in the end. This does look like a fun solution, and closer to the intended one too! I did some RR adjustments to make the execution easier, but this replay still works.

Also, looking at my improved attempts to Havoc 15 I made earlier on, the 13 builder solution carries over here too. The result is 16 skills.

And yes, I checked ccexplore's replay too and that is correct.
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2020, 04:08:55 am »
Wicked 4 is now reduced to 20 skills.  The improvement I found on the right side of the level for the What Skills Do You Need For Max % thread applies here, as well.  This solution does the left side completely differently, using an extra builder and floater, but saving three climbers.