Best way avoid make backroutes?

[MASTER-88]

Best way avoid backroutes? We everybody lemmings levels builders hate those backroutes. So ask which is good way avoid make this

1: Please enlight always level (Set traps, teleports, splitters & metals correct. That my very casual error myself and i´ll also see most lemmings pack maker make those same errors. I just break most Crane levels, when i got find most backroutes, i used enlight tool. Just be very careful with spiltters. You can even make splitter pointless using single Stacker pass it and make whole spiltter pointless. when i check out my olde levels, im very lucky those not work well enought, its most biggest backroute riski.

2: Buttons usually block rough backroutes easily, but many persons not want use that way.

Those are my ideas. This 1st one is most important.

[Strato Incendus]

I don't think there are one or two hard-and-fast rules on how to fix backroutes in general. It's specific to the level, the terrain layout, the number and type of skills provided.

I also struggle to understand your post in other ways. Among others, what do you mean by "enlighten the level"? Clear-physics mode?

Buttons can force the player to visit certain locations in a level, much like pickup skills. Pickup skills however additionally limit when a skill can be used (=not before you've visited location X), and are therefore better suited than buttons to enforce a specific order of events / skill assignments.

One-way arrows are a double-edged sword. Because while they limit the direction of destructive skills on the one hand, they can also provide hints from which side to approach an obstacle on the other hand - thereby actually making the level easier than if the one-way arrows weren't there.

A similar thing happened to me with a fire trap on a Lemmings: Hall of Fame level, where the trap being present would force you to dig at one point. Digging there is still necessary, in order to remove a chunk of terrain so that a Shimmier can continue through that section later on. But the fire trap made it obvious / inevitable to dig there, so I actually ended up removing the fire trap, in order to increase the entropy of the level.

The other thing with one-way arrows is that horizontal arrows are far less restrictive than vertical arrows. Because horizontal arrows can also be dug away from above, whereas vertical arrows can't be bashed away from either side. In other words, vertical arrows are "this direction only", whereas horizontal arrows allow all directions except the one opposing them.

The hint-giving aspect of one-way arrows can only be avoided whenever they are used as a fair version of manual steel. Meaning, you're not actually supposed to dig or bash through them in any way - they're merely trying to prevent you from going through chunks of terrain that can't be replaced by steel blocks (since steel often tends to be rectangular, and the level shape isn't always suitable for that). For the reasons just explained, whenever one-way arrows need to serve as pseudo-steel in this manner, vertical arrows are usually more effective, because they block more directions of destructive skills than horizontal arrows. But again, even that will depend on the level layout, and the skills provided.

It used to be the case that upward vertical arrows were the hardest to get through, but with the joint forces of Fencer and Laserer (especially the latter, since it can operate at a range) may have changed that.

[IchoTolot]

Planning and testing would be my tipp:

Start avoiding them starting in the initial level creation phase.

- Try to envision how ths skills you provide can accidentally open other routes and test that out yourself. If backroutes occur fix it or even change your initial level plan/layout. Sometimes a thing just is not possible without making an unwanted thing possible and changing up the level becomes the better option.
- Some skills tend to open more backroutes than other (stoners, jumpers,...). try to be very careful with those and think about alternative routes they could open up and also that you can maybe include a more restrictive skill instead in a pinch.
- Closing in on the final level try to intentionally solve the level in a different way and bash your head against it a few times. Your own solving skills can help you find quite a few backroutes and I had many instances where I broke my own stuff multiple times and came up with fixes before public testing/release.

In general do not tunnel vision on your intended solution and focus on alternative routes when testing!

Of course backroutes are inevitable in the end and there is no way on earth you will catch everything!

[MASTER-88]

what do you mean by "enlighten the level"? Clear-physics mode?

I´ll mean that tool Right up in toolbox. Upper replay tool. This show is your traps and metals sets correct. When i watch my old packs i usually sets metals wrong and make backroutes possible. Thats was most reason why i have to fix all my packs again (yes that was really hard progress, but i am glad i make it). Im not use that enlight tool my orginal levels.

Its real fact. When you make nearly 400 levels. Backroutes is more than less impossible avoid. I personally not even care if your solutions is extremely well planned, its not need fix. I´ll fix backroute which are really cheap.

Some backroutes is still really nasty avoid. Thats good example Crane Lemmings Chaos 25 Immortal (Crane are later fix whole level) That was when i used digger cancel thought this arrow pillar. I got find very similar my own pack and that was really nasty to fix, because you need those diggers, so i have build many things over again. Also Crane new fixed version was very hard to make again. Add more other skills. That caused some headache.

This is example Crane non fixed level (so be careful when make arrow and have diggers, diggers not really care about arrows):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CwgmJkozg4&ab_channel=metroidmaster88

[MASTER-88]

I am Crane Test player 1.05 version. I only can imagine that Crane frustration levels. Progress solved, fix and fix things over again. And sometimes its seems its infinite vicious circle, where is not way out.

How ever i am learn a lot better player myself and some backroutes not are that cheap ones, but we have to buried most those ones. Crane like his theme system, so we not are allowed break it roughly.

How ever im not want throw trash all my awesome ideas and so i also start build my own new pack which will use some buried ideas I´ll plan 150 levels pack again. This will be very large progress. My custom +series contains 394 levels and its take total 3 years.

I´ll might make some short packs too. Planned Amiga classic 2 which will contains only 30 levels. I´ll also use that my large pack like i use my Amiga 1 my custom+ series.

I´ll focus more my own progress until when Crane 1.05 version are done.

Armani was my test player custom +3. And yes i´ll feel that frustrating levels make EXTREME levels. Its not are fun hobbies. Its just hard work. I´ll personally used some buttons when some backroutes was simply impossible to fix. I´ll also know, buttons will reveal some routes and its not very ideal choice, sometimes its only one at least in large levels, which have a lot skills.

I can only imagine Crane frustration levels at this point. I also was very tired & cranky when i got done my custom +3 Step 5.  But when i was done it i was very glad my pack. Expect Crane levels, my own levels not have real themes, so im not are personally that nitpicking about all things.

How much time its take we reveal all SNES & DOS levels backroutes. We spend that progress over 10 years. There might be still some remain yet.

[namida]

Test. Test some more. Get others to test too.

You can try approaching your level as a "skills you can't live without" challenge; Nepster mentioned he frequently did this as a backroute testing strategy. It won't catch everything though.

No matter how thoroughly you test, some backroutes might still slip through. I discovered one in LPII a few years ago that would've worked even in the initial Lemmix version, but went undetected all this time despite being very simple.

[MASTER-88]

"skills you can't live without" challenge; Nepster mentioned he frequently did this as a backroute testing strategy. It won't catch everything though.

Thats is one i use myself a lot. I just counted those skills and and skills you cannot solved, i´ll just list those skills pen & paper and try another approach. How ever this strategys is useful levels where is very less skills. But levels where is several skill and much lenght, its quite pointless.

I´ll personally like make speedrun levels, because not need worry about backroutes, but have to throw tons tricks in one go. I did High Speed Steel Wrok (my own version & also amiga version) Those levels are backroute free, just all is enought when you saved all in timelimit. Yes its one Lemmings levels category. If we want make strategy levels its not work here, then we have to think a lot.

Most backroute free levels are speedrunlevels and button smash levels.. Fun to build & hard to completed, but you are allowed use what ever way you want. Only goal is completion. Some individual tricks are really hard to throw., I´ll see this in Crane pack without slip backroutes, its really hard.

I´ll also PM with Crane he is tired. I think he will need some rest. Im not want are that asshole who make his live too hard and spam backroutes all times. So if we i have to keep break we will keep it. Crane is extremely good lemmings builder. But those intention ideas is very hard to got finnish without backroutes. Its not easy for me too. We spend few levels over 8 hours work in row and we both was very tired at this point.