Author Topic: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)  (Read 16660 times)

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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2022, 04:42:08 AM »
@tanx
basically same solution but I adjusted a bit to the latest version ;)
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2022, 04:12:41 AM »
@Armani and Apjjm

R3: Apologies that it took me a while to get back to either of you on your solutions to my R3, but I honestly needed to distance myself from the contest levels, my own included. I was stressing out over these solutions that are backroutes to my R3, and indeed especially in Armani's case the second solution is closer than the first, but all 3 solutions are backroutes. For V5, I've shifted some terrain around some more, as well as added a couple more flamethrowers. When in doubt, block and kill them with fire! :evil: Joking aside, once again I'm not super confident about this new version, as it's so hard to backroute fix against the likes of Armani :( With this newest update, it should be much harder to figure out how to get down safely, as almost anywhere you go the Lemmings will encounter a ka-splatty end :P Even if it still doesn't 100% force the solution I have in mind, I would think it at least gets much closer than it has been. Let's see, though. Fingers crossed :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2022, 05:19:50 AM »
@Apjjm Perfectly acceptable, and actually decently close to my original solution. :thumbsup:

I'm pretty happy with this level being somewhat open-ended, especially since (so far) it seems that no matter the route, all skills must be used; it's just where they're used that changes. And I think that's pretty cool. ;)

Offline WillLem

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2022, 01:41:14 AM »
Finally got around to checking replays and having a go at these levels! Note that I didn't have a massive amount to time to spend on solving, I was able to give these about 10 minutes each. Comments:

Rule 1 (click to show/hide)

@Armani @Apjjm - Your rule 1 solutions are intended. The additional Jumper is to allow for slight variations, but you both managed not to need it for your solutions. Nicely done!

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2022, 03:55:46 AM »
attached my new solution to the final level. :D
looks good although I'm not 100% sure
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2022, 05:55:31 AM »
@Armani

Getting closer again, it seems, but I can't have you shortcutting the left side the way you did, which is similar to Apjjm's solution :evil: Looks like I thought the fixes I made to one part of the level I thought would take care of that, but I will have to make sure to kill more birds with one stone instead of just focusing on one part of the level to fix when backroute fixing my own levels. For V6, more fire! It's the only change. Luckily I don't think the addition of it made the left side look too out of place, the placements of everything else just happened to already be perfect :laugh: My own intended solution does not break as well, so I didn't need to tweak anything in my replay.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2022, 01:27:01 AM »
The basic idea is similar but now I use shimmiers to actually let some lemmings shimmy something 8-)
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2022, 02:57:53 AM »
@Armani

R3 - Your solution is now about 98% intended. I've uploaded a V7 that I think will do the trick now. A sigma symbol is added, along with some more traps/water. I've also locked the RR to prevent any funny shenanigans you might try with it :P The number of lemmings and number to be saved were also reduced.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2022, 07:50:05 AM »
resolved 8-)
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2022, 08:09:53 AM »
Armani

R3 - This is definitely getting restless on my part. One final change for V8, which is shifted the tilde symbol over, added more flamethrowers, and made the shimmiers pickups. If it still doesn't force the solution I have in mind, then there isn't really anything else I can do to fix it up, I fear.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 08:22:35 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2022, 04:02:14 AM »
This solution is very similar to what you said was 98% intended :)
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2022, 09:05:34 AM »
@Armani

R3: First off, let me start by apologizing for my vent in my previous post. I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes because I cannot backroute fix against from the likes of super talented solving people like you. As a result, my frustrations prevented me from fixing my level with a clear mind and conscience. I don't know about you experiencing these emotions whenever you need to repeatedly fix backroutes for your own levels, but this is exactly what can happen after a certain amount of different versions of the level. At least for me it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level. However, that's no reason for me to take out my anger on you. In addition, you're not the only person who has repeatedly backrouted my levels, though you do hold the record for sending me the most backroute solutions out of anyone who has played my levels. In any case, rather than get frustrated by it, I should be thankful (and I am, thank you for being persistent in resolving too) for you sending me such solutions, as it goes to show how I didn't carefully consider every approach a solver such as yourself might take to the level. It also tells me that I'm apparently not as good at backroute fixing as I thought I be, which means I should heavily consider getting someone to pre-test them or I just need to come up with better designs and solutions which aren't as prone to backrouting, as magnificent as my puzzles are. Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.

Second, I think I finally see now which skills have been the major cause of the level being plagued by backroutes. So, for V9, as much as I hate to, I made both gliders, a shimmier, and a builder pickups. I've also moved the shimmier pickup to a different location. I honestly hate using pickups myself to fix backroutes, which is why I try to avoid using them for so long, because my main concern is that they make the level easier than I intended. At the same time, I think based on feedback I've received from you for my levels, I've been proven wrong about my own levels being a lot easier in spite of the pickups.

Finally, if the intended solution is found for V9, I may consider fixing up the level visually in a future update, as some of the things that were added in earlier versions might not even be needed anymore and honestly they started making my level look more of a mess :XD:
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 09:21:25 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2022, 05:32:32 AM »
No problem! 8-)
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of :crylaugh: Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot. :lem-shocked:

I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now 8-) The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers. ;)
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2022, 06:34:02 AM »
I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now 8-) The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers. ;)

Finally, that's 100% intended! :thumbsup: I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed my R3. Based on the feedback you gave me on Discord, I will release an update not to block your solution since it's intended now, but that will remove some things that are no longer needed, as I hate how it has now become more of a visual mess than it should be :sick: I might also think about possibly reverting some pickup changes, but I'll need to think about it some more.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
No problem! 8-)
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of :crylaugh: Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot. :lem-shocked:

Ah, good to know that it isn't just me who gets frustrated after a certain point with so many versions of a level for backroute fixing. Still, as I said before that's no reason for me to take out my frustration on you, as you were very helpful in showing me different ways that it could still be backrouted that I didn't think about or consider a player might try.

Thanks again for all the replays/feedback! :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2022, 12:55:21 AM »
A hodgepodge of replays; a couple of them are most definitely backroutes.


DireKrow's "Infiltration" (click to show/hide)