Poll

What's your thoughts on the new arc (green in reply #26, also shown in reply #27)?

It's good
I could accept it but would prefer something else
I don't like it at all

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)  (Read 3545 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2129
  • Just keep swimming
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2020, 01:41:12 AM »
I was thinking of having them throw exploding sheep, but it's hard to animate that at an acceptable size.

A HOLY grenade would be a different story. ;)

How about a banana? :evil:

All excellent ideas :crylaugh:

Seriously though, maybe we could come up with something totally new that's unique to NeoLemmix and hasn't been seen in either Worms or earlier versions of Lemmings...

COOKIES!


Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11789
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2020, 01:48:45 AM »
On a more serious note, from the videos so far, how do people feel about:

a) the horizontal speed of the projectiles? For reference this is a constant 7 pixels per frame currently; it does not increase and/or decrease at any point throughout the arc. (Please consider this separately from range. The two can be adjusted independently, with no side effects on each other.)
b) the duration of time it takes for the lemming to actually release the projectile from his hand, after being assigned the skill? From memory I believe it's currently 4 frames but could be wrong and cannot be bothered checking right now.

I'll probably do polls at a later point for both, but for now, any comments?

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1563
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2020, 01:36:06 PM »
An even number for the pure "hand-motion" time (like the current 4 pixels) seems fine by me.

Regarding the movement of the projectile, 7 pixels per frame seems quite fast, but then again, I hope nobody plans to use pixel precision with these throwing skills. (Although the Spearer might lend itself more to that than the Grenadier, because the created piece of terrain is smaller than the large crater the grenade causes).

Quote
Seriously though, maybe we could come up with something totally new that's unique to NeoLemmix and hasn't been seen in either Worms or earlier versions of Lemmings...

COOKIES!

If we want to stick with explosive foods and go with one that hasn't been used before, there is a clear candidate that overshadows all the rest:

The pomegranate (in German it's literally called a "grenade apple" :evil: ).

I still don't understand to this day how Team17, the Worms developers, were quicker to come up with a banana bomb than with a pomegranate.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1365
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2020, 09:20:16 PM »
I think just the look of the grenade is fine, and people are getting too off topic with it IMHO

I'm fine with the speed of 7 pixels per frame, what matters at the end of the day is the usability and the puzzles that can be made with said skills.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11789
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2020, 09:25:11 PM »
Quote
I think just the look of the grenade is fine, and people are getting too off topic with it IMHO

Most of those posts were not very serious. We were just making jokes about similarities to Worms. As I've said, serious discussion about appearances will come later.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3175
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2020, 09:26:03 PM »
The speed seems fine to me so far.

I think the testing phase could maybe give more insight about if we need to accelarate it or slow it down.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2006
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2020, 02:44:06 AM »
For reference:

Horizontal speeds:
L2 bazooker: 8 pixels/frame
L2 mortar: starts at about 5 pixels/frame (thanks to background objects obstructing visibility, this is measured from very close to the start, but not QUITE there, so I can't promise the first three or so frames don't go faster); eventually slows to what appears to be 1 pixel/frame - I didn't bother measuring this because I assume we're not considering this behavior
L2 spearer: 6 pixels/frame

I'd be willing to measure the archer as well, but it is dependent on the angle, so I'd need to know what angle you want me to try.



Personally, I think the grenadier animation looks a little choppy (to be fair, the bazooker in L2 looks pretty choppy, too, which makes sense considering it travels an extra pixel/frame).

My suggestion would be to go with 5 pixels/frame, which I think should hopefully be a better balance between not being too choppy and also not being too slow. I would suggest against going any faster than the L2 spearer, at 6 pixels/frame.

As far as visuals on the destructive skill, I'd suggest going ahead and using the L2 bazooker for three main reasons: first, anyone who's played L2 should understand exactly what the skill is going to do; second, it will be more distinct from other skill icons that way; and third, we can use the L2 graphics if we want (did we do this for Shimmiers and Jumpers, or did we draw new ones?)

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11789
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2020, 03:15:10 AM »
I have no idea about the Shimmier (almost 100% of the Shimmier implementation, graphics included, was handled by Nepster), but the L2 graphic was indeed used for the Jumper at least at some point - I don't recall if it was the final graphic or not.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2129
  • Just keep swimming
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2020, 05:31:20 AM »
I think just the look of the grenade is fine, and people are getting too off topic with it IMHO

Not at all. Comments about the graphics/aesthetics of the skill are perfectly valid (although I do acknowledge that namida has said physics is the main focus at this stage, so I'll keep it relevant going forward). The jokey tone of some of the comments is mainly to keep the conversation light and fun, and wasn't meant to be a distraction.

what matters at the end of the day is the usability and the puzzles that can be made with said skills.

Absolutely, but as I've said looks do matter as well when it's a visual, interactive game. It surprises me that you're taking this stance, in particular, because some of your graphical contributions to NeoLemmix are fantastic (the Jade style, in particular, is lush!)

My two cents on the skill speed is that it's fine as it is, but I agree with Dullstar that the animation is a little bit choppy. If frames can be added without slowing the skill down too much, this might be the way to go.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 05:41:21 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11789
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2020, 06:54:47 AM »
Changing physics, or even graphics, to allow for "half-frame" updates, would be an extremely massive change that would not be worth it just to improve the visuals of one or two skills. Making the graphic larger might mitigate the choppy appearance a bit, not sure, though this also might look weird when the lemming throws it.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1563
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2020, 01:19:34 PM »
Quote
As far as visuals on the destructive skill, I'd suggest going ahead and using the L2 bazooker for three main reasons: first, anyone who's played L2 should understand exactly what the skill is going to do; second, it will be more distinct from other skill icons that way; and third, we can use the L2 graphics if we want (did we do this for Shimmiers and Jumpers, or did we draw new ones?)

I'd be fine with that! :thumbsup: I guess we should simply call it "Bazooker" in that case, though?

"Grenader" is not an existing skill anywhere, plus there's the confusion with "Grenader" and "Grenadier". Granted, "Bazooka" (the weapon) vs. "Bazooker" (the guy firing it) is a similar source of confusion. But at least there's the precident of it being called "Bazooker" in Lemmings 2, and that name shouldn't be too long for the panel, in contrast to "Laser Blaster".

The main difference between a Bazooker and a Grenadier would obviously be that the Bazooker requires a "shooting device", instead of just throwing the explosive projectile.
This could be the same as for the Laser Blaster in a pinch, just pointing into a different direction (but slightly diagonally upward would make sense, given the parabolic arc of the projectile).

However, if you suggest using the original Lemmings 2 animation anyway, then the "shooting device" is already part of that animation anyway - and it would actually be more effort to remove it, to turn the L2 Bazooker animation into a (throwing) Grenadier, than just leaving the animation as it is and renaming the Grenadier to "Bazooker".

Of course, given the parabolic arc, "Mortar" would still be a possible name as well:
The Bazooker in L2 flies mainly horizontally.
The Mortar in L2 has a steeper curve, as far as I recall, than the current Grenadier. However, both would have more in common than the Grenadier and the Bazooker, because the Mortar is more widely applicable: You can dent ceilings with it, you can shoot horizontally, and you can even blast through the ground like a regular walking Bomber, but at a distance. (In fact, I remember one particular L2 level where you have to use several Mortars in rapid succession to blast a shaft into the ground on the other side of a water pond).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2006
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2020, 02:20:06 PM »
I'd be fine with the Mortar as well if we feel it's a better fit for the arc.

Regarding the choppiness I brought up earlier, I'd agree that the half frame solution would be weird (although I'm not sure if that's really what WillLem meant by adding frames). That's why I suggested the lower projectile speed - it won't look as choppy if it's not traveling as far per frame, so my suggestion is basically to go with the slowest speed we can get away with before the animation feels sluggish instead.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11789
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2020, 07:37:18 PM »
Quote
The main difference between a Bazooker and a Grenadier would obviously be that the Bazooker requires a "shooting device", instead of just throwing the explosive projectile.

This is purely a graphical difference. Any "shooting device" would just be hard-drawn on to the lemming sprite, not a seperate graphic.

One thing I should note here regarding the two skills: If there is specifically good reason for it (ie: not just "for the sake of it" or "it looks good"), the two may have a different projectile speed, as long as the actual arc they follow is still the same. This is not currently the case, but it's feasible to do without much hassle.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11789
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2020, 01:53:14 AM »
One issue that has arisen during the private test is that in the course of Thrower -> Shrugger, there is no terrain check performed to see if the lemming is still standing on terrain. This leads to a scenario where, either by grenading close to a wall or by having another lemming remove terrain, you can have a Thrower suspended in midair, and assign a skill - including another throwing skill (and repeat this infinitely) - to him when he becomes a shrugger.

After some thought, the solution I would like to propose here is that, on every frame after the projectile leaves the lemming's hand but while the lemming remains a Thrower, including the frame on which it would otherwise become a shrugger; a terrain check is performed, and if there is no ground under the Thrower, he becomes a faller.

The advantages to this are:
- Doesn't change the Shrugger behavior, as it addresses the situation before the lemming becomes a shrugger. Therefore, it does not risk breaking existing replays.
- The "can hover while actually doing something, but can't stay there" is, while unrealistic, a bit more consistent with other constructive / destructive skills.
- The point of the Shrugger time is to allow assigning another skill, including another projectile skill. Alternative options require either introducing a new state, or else having the Thrower's ability to receive skills dependant on how far along in the throwing animation it is. This avoids that problem.

The one disadvantage is that it's a little bit inconsistent that a builder or platformer can become a shrugger while in midair, while a thrower cannot. However, the key difference is that it's not directly "thrower cannot become shrugger in midair", but rather, "midair thrower becomes faller" (before it has a chance to become shrugger) - so this is only indirectly inconsistent, and I think this is okay.

However, other suggestions / feedback are welcome.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2129
  • Just keep swimming
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2020, 02:43:58 AM »
One thing I don't quite understand: why do the projectile skills have a shrugger state? ???