Poll

What's your thoughts on the new arc (green in reply #26, also shown in reply #27)?

It's good
I could accept it but would prefer something else
I don't like it at all

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)  (Read 1515 times)

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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2020, 12:55:24 am »
+1 for green height, but red length is better. Strongly in favour of longer horizontal range, in general.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2020, 01:06:32 am »
+1 for green height, but red length is better. Strongly in favour of longer horizontal range, in general.

When used on a flat surface, the horizontal range is unchanged - see the reference line. It's a natural consequence of the steeper curve, that once it gets past the point of "back to the height it started at", it doesn't cover as much ground - simply because of the faster downwards movement.

If you were to make it "same horizontal range for that exact setup shown in that screenshot", this in turn means it now has more horizontal range than the red curve did if the shot doesn't end up falling as low - and that beyond that point, it'll still have less range, just not by as much.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2020, 03:15:08 am »
When used on a flat surface, the horizontal range is unchanged - see the reference line. It's a natural consequence of the steeper curve, that once it gets past the point of "back to the height it started at", it doesn't cover as much ground - simply because of the faster downwards movement.

If you were to make it "same horizontal range for that exact setup shown in that screenshot", this in turn means it now has more horizontal range than the red curve did if the shot doesn't end up falling as low - and that beyond that point, it'll still have less range, just not by as much.

I'm not sure I understand. A curve of any height can be stretched horizontally without changing its height...? Or, are you referring to the specifics of the way that this skill works?

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2020, 06:05:49 am »
It's not anywhere close to impossible, to stretch the curve horizontally.

However, using the red curve as a point of reference isn't so simple, because the increased gradient of the green curve (which gives it the extra height) in turn has implications on the horizontal range, which are not as simple as just "longer" or "shorter".

If we were to look at these two curves on a flat surface they'd have almost the same horizontal range - a pixel or two different, due to that the projectile starts at (roughly) the lemming's head height, not at ground height. Above this, the green curve has more range, below this, the red curve does.

See the new attached image. It now has three white lines - the highest one is 16px above the projectile's starting height, the middle one is at the projectile's starting height, the bottom one is 16px below the projectile's starting height. Note that which one has more horizontal range, is different at each line - the green curve does on the top line, the red curve does on the bottom line, and they're equal on the middle one (which is what I actually used as a reference for the new curve - kept the same "at starting height" horizontal range, while making the peak higher).

I'm not the best at explaining this; if it's not clear, hopefully someone a bit more maths-y can do a better job of it.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2020, 10:51:15 am »
Looking at the skill panel again: Can the grenade maybe get a different colour, just like the spear?

The Spearer is easy enough to distinguish from the Basher thanks to that colour difference, but the Grenadier can be mistaken for a Basher with two heads. :D

In general: Would the grenade be expected to change colours depending on the tileset, just like bricks (Builder / Platformer / Stacker) and the Spear? ;)
My packs so far:
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2020, 10:12:07 pm »
the increased gradient of the green curve (which gives it the extra height) in turn has implications on the horizontal range, which are not as simple as just "longer" or "shorter"

I understand now. Even if you were to stretch the green curve to where the red curve meets the ground, they would continue from there in the same manner as where they intersect on the middle line in your example, i.e. the red curve has a more shallow diminuendo and so continues further horizontally, and the green curve has a steeper diminuendo and continues further vertically (that is, from the "meeting point", in each case).

I tried it in Paint and it doesn't matter how far along the lines meet, the result is always the same. That being the case, I'd vote for somewhere between the green and the red curve, so that there's a better balance of height vs distance.

EDIT: Looking at the results of the poll, it doesn't look like it makes any difference anyway :crylaugh:

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2020, 12:11:41 am »
Quote
Looking at the skill panel again: Can the grenade maybe get a different colour, just like the spear?

Absolutely open to graphics tweaks, but (unless needed to avoid the graphics and physics being "out of sync" with each other) they won't happen until after the skills are confirmed. Again - it's only really physics that are up for discussion at the moment.

Quote
In general: Would the grenade be expected to change colours depending on the tileset, just like bricks (Builder / Platformer / Stacker) and the Spear? ;)

Current graphic no, in general it's definitely something that could be considered.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2020, 08:22:23 am »
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I tried it in Paint and it doesn't matter how far along the lines meet, the result is always the same. That being the case, I'd vote for somewhere between the green and the red curve, so that there's a better balance of height vs distance.

How about keeping the height of green, but buffing the horizontal range by an additional 16 pixels? ???

I think the height is important for the skill and therefore rather than cutting height for range why not simply incresing the range a bit. We don't have to sacrifice one for the other here! ;)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2020, 11:00:27 am »
Sorry to keep harping on this, but greater range is not necessarily better. Increasing the range increases the number of places you can stand from to hit point X, which increases the complexity of any level where it's not obvious how to get to a good throwing point. There's also the aesthetic consideration: increase the range, and you force the designer to provide open space for the skill to be useful (like the Pole Vaulter in L2, but... not quite that bad :P )

I still feel, mostly on instinct, that the green arc is too wide and it would be better to rein it in a little.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2020, 06:27:30 pm »
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How about keeping the height of green, but buffing the horizontal range by an additional 16 pixels?

Do you mean 16px on a flat surface, or...?

Sorry to keep harping on this, but greater range is not necessarily better. Increasing the range increases the number of places you can stand from to hit point X, which increases the complexity of any level where it's not obvious how to get to a good throwing point. There's also the aesthetic consideration: increase the range, and you force the designer to provide open space for the skill to be useful (like the Pole Vaulter in L2, but... not quite that bad :P )

I definitely can see your point about how it could become too complex; it's a concern I have been keeping in mind. It's more of a strike against the Spearer in particular, where the distance travelled can also affect the angle of the created terrain (whereas the grenader has the same area of effect no matter what angle it hits terrain at).

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2020, 06:30:12 pm »
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How about keeping the height of green, but buffing the horizontal range by an additional 16 pixels?

Do you mean 16px on a flat surface, or...?

Yes.

Although Proxima's concern is something we should keep in mind, as making the arc too huge could have a negative impact. I don't think it's a problem yet though.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2020, 12:09:35 am »
Maybe the grenadier shouldn't throw grenades, but should instead throw balls of explosive light! Grenades are a little bit too close to a certain turn-based artillery strategy game I could mention... ;P

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2020, 07:06:20 am »
Maybe the grenadier shouldn't throw grenades, but should instead throw balls of explosive light! Grenades are a little bit too close to a certain turn-based artillery strategy game I could mention... ;P

I was thinking of having them throw exploding sheep, but it's hard to animate that at an acceptable size.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2020, 09:18:34 am »
Maybe the grenadier shouldn't throw grenades, but should instead throw balls of explosive light! Grenades are a little bit too close to a certain turn-based artillery strategy game I could mention... ;P

Well, Lemmings already threw grenades in Lemmings 3.

Also, I think throwing normal grenades isn't really something a game could claim exclusivity on. A HOLY grenade would be a different story. ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2020, 09:33:04 pm »
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I was thinking of having them throw exploding sheep, but it's hard to animate that at an acceptable size.

How about a banana? :evil:

Quote
Also, I think throwing normal grenades isn't really something a game could claim exclusivity on.

As is shooting a Bazooka, like in Lemmings 2. ;) Both Bazookas and Grenades exist in Worms, and both are staples of that game.

But I've already said previously that I'm going to make a bunch of more Worms levels with these skills anyway, if they make it into a stable version :P .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels