Poll

What's your thoughts on the new arc (green in reply #26, also shown in reply #27)?

It's good
I could accept it but would prefer something else
I don't like it at all

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)  (Read 1517 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2020, 04:47:46 am »
Voted for "Other". I'm not sure how the above screenshot compares to the earlier mock-up with the arrows, but seeing it on an actual level, I feel that the arc is too wide and should be tightened up.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2020, 05:20:38 am »
Voted for "Other". I'm not sure how the above screenshot compares to the earlier mock-up with the arrows, but seeing it on an actual level, I feel that the arc is too wide and should be tightened up.

What about height-wise? Keep it the same (while reducing the width), or...?

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2020, 06:56:56 pm »
This is tricky - because it's very much dependent on whether we end up getting the Laser Blaster or not ;) :

If we don't get the Laser Blaster (even though I consider that unlikely), we have no way of modifying the ceiling for Shimmiers. So if the Projectiles should fill that gap, the arc would probably have to be steeper than it is right now.

On the other hand, if we do get the Laser Blaster, then I think a more horizontal arc, as it is now, would provide more incremental use for the projectiles:
The Laser Blaster is a skill with vertical range (well, of course, if it's a 45 degree angle, it's just as much horizontal as vertical range).
The Projectiles, as they are now, offer more horizontal range.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2020, 07:32:43 pm »
I disagree that the arc should be tighter; it's pretty much spot on in that video. Height-wise is fine too.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2020, 08:28:17 pm »
As it it right now the arc desperately needs a little bit more height in my opinion. I would suggest around 50% more height.

Right now it has near to no chance at all hitting any terrain piece above the lemming and I think having the possibility would greatly benefit the skill + give level designers an easier way to check it by putting a lower ceiling in its way.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2020, 03:13:33 am »
The current width is fine.

I don't have a preference on keeping the height as is or making it taller.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2020, 05:57:15 am »
How's this look?

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2020, 08:43:04 am »
Looks fine by me! :thumbsup:

The long horizontal range is definitely useful for the spear. I generally think constructive skills will be more effective in the horizontal dimension; with the destructive ones, i.e. the grenade, I'm a little more fixated on the vertical dimension (like bombing from below, denting a ceiling for a Shimmier etc.).

Thus, the Grenadier with the current arc will still only work on comparatively low ceilings, but it's high enough that I think we could design level terrain specifically made for this (without that terrain shape giving away too much about where to assign which skill).

I generally don't see that much use for throwing a spear against the ceiling, HOWEVER there is one big Shimmier-related one, the counterpart to the "Grenadier hole dents the ceiling to stop the Shimmier":

If the spear lands in the ceiling diagonally, forming a little ramp, the Shimmier can land on it and start fencing or maybe even bashing from there. Especially the Fencer at this point would be useful, because it allows to precisely what we would currently need the Laser Blaster for: A way to carve a path into a ceiling for a Shimmier to continue.

In this case, the Shimmier could carve that path himself, whereas in case of the Laser Blaster, you'd need a different lemming to do it. Of course, in the former case, three different skills are needed (Shimmier, Spear Thrower, Fencer), whereas in the latter, you only need two (Shimmier + Laser Blaster).

Thus, I don't think this type of Spear Thrower usage would make the Laser Blaster superfluous. I'm just saying it would be a way to work around this if, for some reason, we would end up not getting the Laser Blaster. (Which I don't think at this point, since it seems to be the most popular skill at this point.)
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2020, 08:47:23 am »
That's way better from my point of view! :thumbsup:

This way you can also achive steeper angles of the ground to use the spear as height gain more effectively.

I would maybe even add 16 pixels of height on top of that, but this is already good and my suggestion here could already be too much. :)

If it's not too much work: Could we get a comparison picture of the old arc, this arc and one with an additional 16 pixels of height. I think then we can better see which one looks best as just talking is not that effective here in my opinion.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2020, 11:23:26 am »
My suggestion: compared to the second screenshot, the height gain is about right, and the horizontal range should shrink to roughly 3/4 of what it currently is.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2020, 11:36:00 am »
My suggestion: compared to the second screenshot, the height gain is about right, and the horizontal range should shrink to roughly 3/4 of what it currently is.

I think that would make the skill worse. The horizontal range is one of the selling points and I think diminishing it would not be good as it then struggles to get across medium sized gaps.

I would rather make the range too big than too small here.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2020, 04:59:38 pm »
Quote
If it's not too much work: Could we get a comparison picture of the old arc, this arc and one with an additional 16 pixels of height. I think then we can better see which one looks best as just talking is not that effective here in my opinion.

I'll get back to you later re the 16 pixel higher one, but for now, here's a comparison image for the old and new arcs.

White line is for reference.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2020, 05:37:03 pm »
Some screenshots in familiar levels. This is the taller arc (ie: the green one in the above pic).

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2020, 05:55:09 pm »
That already looks good.  You are able to hit normal ceilings, but also throw quite a distance. :thumbsup:

Maybe my "even taller" idea is taking it too far after all. The green arc from before seems quite good. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Spearer and Grenader (projectile constructive / destructive)
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2020, 12:39:56 am »
+1 for the green arc :thumbsup:!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels