Author Topic: [LP Series] WillLem Plays Through Just The First Rank Of A Bunch Of Custom Packs  (Read 5301 times)

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Offline WillLem

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Welcome to the topic for my all-new LP Series!

WillLem Plays Through Just The First Rank Of A Bunch Of Custom Packs in NeoLemmix!

Episode #1 Lemmings Redux by The Lemmings Forums Community
Episode #2 SubLems by Colorful Arty
Episode #3 Rodents by Ron Stard
Episode #4 TMChallenge by Proxima
Episode #5 NepsterLems by Nepster
Episode #6 Lemmings Plus VI by namida
Episode #7 Sammings 2 by Mantha16
Episode #8 Ski Sloping Lemmings by grams88
Episode #9 Lemmings Migration by Nessy
Episode #10 NeoLemmix Introduction Pack by IchoTolot


Here are the packs I'll be doing, not necessarily in this order (at this point I've arranged the list alphabetically by author):

The Lemmings Have Grown by Davidz
Godlems by Duuddu
Festival Millas 2020 by GigaLem
MobiLems 3: The Lemmings Strike Again! by mobius
Casualemmings 2.0 by nin10doadict
Lemmings World Tour by Strato Incendus
Lemmingzones by LemFan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 12:01:25 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Nice set of packs there, WillLem! :thumbsup: The only one on your list that I've completed is Reverse Lemmings, but it was on Superlemmini, which is what the pack originally was designed for before Colorful Arty converted the pack over to Neolemmix. I'm currently playing through Lemmings United, Nepsterlems, and Casualemmings, the last one I'm currently playing on v.10.13, meaning Old Formats. If you ever get going with Lemmings United, good luck with that. With 41 levels, it might take you a long time, especially since it already starts getting really difficult around the halfway point of the rank. From memory, there are two or three pretty mind-bending, difficult levels in the 30s which took me a while to solve, but they took me nowhere near as long as the rank finisher, which I was stuck on for about a day. It really comes together for the rank finisher, but it's a real eye pleaser level visually and has a really beautiful solution. Of course, don't let the difficulty discourage you. After all, it's only the first rank and is definitely nothing compared to the brutal difficulty in the second rank and beyond. I'm currently a bit more than halfway on the third rank and am currently stumped on a 55 second level in it. For Nepsterlems, I don't think it should be a problem for you. None of the levels of the first rank were particularly difficult, although I can think of two or three that might still be troublesome. Same thing with Casualemmings, although this one should be the easiest of the three in terms of first rank levels. I'm not sure if there are any differences between the old formats and the new formats versions of the pack. I'm only on the second rank, with a rather really infamous level that just seems impossible for me. I'm not certain if anyone has been able to beat it. Strato might had, but I'm not sure. The rest on the list I haven't played, so I can't say much about the difficulty of the first rank in them.

If you're looking for some well-done packs a bit more on the easier side, I suggest Lemmings Reunion, Dovelems, and Pimolems to add to the list. Reunion has a really nice difficulty curve throughout, and pretty much the only time it gets difficult in the first rank is the last few levels. Also there's only 30 levels in the rank, so it probably won't take you too long. The latter two especially should have first rank levels more suitable to your skill level. Both Reunion and Pimolems get much harder after the first rank, but Dovelems tends to have a pretty gentle curve throughout the entire pack. I've played and beaten all three of these packs, which is why I'm able to offer my view on their difficulty.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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No, I also didn't beat "Super Mecha Death Gators" until I asked nin10doadict for advice. ;) The point is, even though he made that level in my style with regards to the traps, the solution is actually very typical of nin10doadict's own level design style, and that is a type of level I have notorious problems with.

Since it's one of the hardest and best levels in the pack, in my opinion, I contacted nin10doadict, telling him that I added the traps in their old form to my strato_generalmd tileset, so that the level could be converted to New Formats. I haven't received any response from him yet, though ;) .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Awesome project 8-) I'm watching the Redux video now and I'll write some responses to your thoughts as I go along. I think it's really important for a pack to make a good first impression by getting its easy rank right, so it's great to have this kind of in-depth look at what goes into making a good first rank.

ericderkovits commented that he would prefer each level to have its original music. While that is just one person's opinion, I will definitely raise the question in the Redux topic to see whether others agree with this.

At the very beginning, when we were still brainstorming wild ideas, I suggested we could go for a completely repeats-free pack by replacing Fun 2, 4 and 7 with Tame levels modified to be tutorial levels for the same skills. No-one liked the idea and we quickly dropped it. In any case, we ended up keeping a small number of repeat pairs outside the tutorial levels.

"A task for bombers" isn't the first level that's been edited (we've already seen removed time limits and reduced lemming counts) but the first one with a major difference :P

We considered (and rejected) removing the decorative terrain on "Snuggle up to a lemming". Clearly, we made the right call :P

The Gentle 9 talisman should display as "Save 20 with only builders", and Gentle 16 should display as "Save 50 with 2 of each skill", so there's a bug if this no longer works. I'll look into this.

Nice demonstration of multiple solutions on "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" :) And nice demonstration on "CindyLand" that 7 of each skill is still plenty for massively overcomplicating a level :P

We didn't shorten "A beast of a level"; we took the version of the level from Genesis Lemmings, where it is shorter (because Genesis levels have a maximum size of 511 x 160; this is also why, other than the special levels, levels larger than this were replaced with completely new levels in the Genesis version).

The device you referred to in "Careless clicking costs lives" is called a Newton's Cradle.

Offline kaywhyn

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No, I also didn't beat "Super Mecha Death Gators" until I asked nin10doadict for advice. ;)

Ah, so the level is possible. Thanks for clarifying. So far, the best I've managed on the level is 21, which is short of the save 25 requirement. I haven't been able to get anything better than save 21, and atm I'm not convinced I can improve my save 21 in any other ways to get a working solution that would ultimately win the level. Guess I'm going to be stuck here for a while. Still, I'm going to keep trying, as I'm not one to look up solutions until I've beaten the levels on my own first.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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If you ever get going with Lemmings United, good luck with that. With 41 levels, it might take you a long time... Reunion has a really nice difficulty curve throughout, and pretty much the only time it gets difficult in the first rank is the last few levels. Also there's only 30 levels in the rank, so it probably won't take you too long

Good shout. I might do Reunion instead, then. It was suggested somewhere else that I do this one first anyway as United is technically a sequel pack.

Ideally I don't want to do ranks with any more than 30 levels for this series, for various reasons mainly involving attention span and solving ability!

We considered (and rejected) removing the decorative terrain on "Snuggle up to a lemming". Clearly, we made the right call :P

You did indeed! :lemcat: although, I did make a bit of a mess of the demonstration in the video! I'll aim to be a bit more slick in episode 2... 8-)

Nice demonstration of multiple solutions on "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" :) And nice demonstration on "CindyLand" that 7 of each skill is still plenty for massively overcomplicating a level :P

Thanks, and... touché! :crylaugh: But yeah, fair comment :forehead:

The device you referred to in "Careless clicking costs lives" is called a Newton's Cradle.

Ah, brill! I'll have to get one of these for the man cave...

Thanks for the kind comments, everyone. Glad you enjoyed the first episode. Should have the next one filmed soonish!

Offline Turrican

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Also another suggestion for your LP series , I think could be to do a comparative let's play of the first rank of Revenge of the lemmings v1 ( it's for Lemmini ) , and the first rank of Revenge of the lemmings v2 (  it's based on old formats Neolemmix , but it has been released as standalone ) .
The first rank of v1 became more  difficult quickly . In comparison ,  the first rank of v2 was much easier ,  but that was because v2 had a new rank between the second and the third rank ( and it had also the bonus rank of v1 removed ) ,  so several of the levels that existed in the first rank of v1 , moved to the second rank , and became replaced by easier levels ( several of these new levels were easier remakes of levels you would encounter in later ranks ) .

EDIT :  Also , unfortunately only one of the pack that I have suggested is for Neolemmix ( Rotl v2 ) , so if you feel that my suggestion is "out of topic" for your LP series ,  plese ignore it .
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 12:56:35 PM by Turrican »
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

Offline Proxima

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I'd like LPers to stay away from Revenge of the Lemmings while the new-formats conversion is in-progress. When it's finished, then certainly, that would be a very interesting idea; but jumping in now would be an annoyance as it would draw attention to the current state of the pack and to flaws that we are aware of and already intend to fix.

Offline Turrican

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Ok! In that case ,  @ WillLem  :  Please ignore my suggestion , and just try the first rank of the new version of Rotl , when it will be ready for the new formats .
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 04:02:31 PM by Turrican »
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

Offline WillLem

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I'll likely want to get through the packs already on the list before I get to any other suggestions anyways, and the room I usually record LPs in is currently being decorated, so there's time yet!

Saying that, I'd really like to get another episode filmed tomorrow really, so I'll probs set up in a different room for now.

Offline WillLem

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:20:25 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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As far as Lemmings Plus goes, I think Lemmings Plus VI would be the best one to look at if you haven't already. Unless you want to deliberately pick one that'll be an outlier among the series, and go with Alpha... :P

Offline WillLem

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:20:36 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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I first played through Ron's pack on Superlemmini. I played it up through level 8, where I wasn't able to solve it. I then played the same level in Neolemmix, where I used the exact same thing on Superlemmini here and it works, so apparently the basher checks are way more lenient on Neolemmix than they are on Superlemmini, meaning it's much easier to pull off in the former than in the latter, or, at least for me, right now it seems impossible to pull it off on Superlemmini, as I even tried framestepping with the placements and still couldn't get any position to work. This is my hint for you for level 8. I of course played through the remainder of the levels on Neolemmix and was able to beat them, so pack completely beaten on Neolemmix, all beaten except level 8 on Superlemmini.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 01:10:11 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:20:45 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Nice job, WillLem! :thumbsup: Level 10 is indeed the hardest one of the pack. I first played the pack via Custlemm (custom lemming levels on Dos, which is the lemmings computer engine that I grew up with, and as you already know there are some major differences on some of the levels on Dos vs the Amiga, the major one being that most levels had the water removed on Dos) a really long time ago and I was able to beat all the levels, including the last one, albeit with much difficulty on the final one. Just like with mantha, the hint I offered is to take advantage of how you can lose up to 16 lemmings in the level. This means if you use all 6 blockers you can still lose up to an additional 10 lemmings. Also, you might want to find a better way to get up to the platform at the top so that you have the necessary amount of builders for the end.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Ron_Stard

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Episode #3: Rodents by Ron Stard is up! 8-)

First of all, thank you for playing my pack. But you were playing an outdated version of it:I made several (but minor terrain) changes in a new version (1.0.1) and updated it in the corresponding thread. These changes weren't made to affect the intended solutions, but to prevent backroutes. I think I informed you of it via P.M. Sorry if I didn't :-[

You can find the current version here:

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4870.0


I see you have struggles with some levels. I can give you some hints if you want =)

I'm glad you appreciate the decoration of the levels, as well as the intended solution in No time for a spa :thumbsup: . The solution for The Freedom Man was not the intended one, but I like it. Can you try that solution in the new version of my levelpack?

And yes, the title of the final level is inspired by the current worldwide situation. I hope everything get back to the normality soon. Can you solve it without Pause, as in one of your challenges? :thumbsup:

Please, give my pack another chance! I promise you it's really Amusing!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 12:45:35 PM by Ron_Stard »

Offline WillLem

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First of all, thank you for playing my pack. But you were playing an outdated version of it... I think I informed you of it via P.M. Sorry if I didn't :-[

Ah - my bad, you did indeed inform me of the update. I thought I did actually have the most up-to-date version... my apologies!

You can find the current version here:

I see you have struggles with some levels. I can give you some hints if you want =)

I've now downloaded the most recent version for sure, and yes - some hints would be great!

The solution for The Freedom Man was not the intended one, but I like it. Can you try that solution in the new version of my levelpack?

Just checked it - the solution doesn't work on the new version, aaand I now can't solve it! :crylaugh: :forehead:

Can you solve it (the final level) without Pause, as in one of your challenges? :thumbsup:

Absolutely! :lemcat:

Offline Ron_Stard

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Can you solve it (the final level) without Pause, as in one of your challenges? :thumbsup:

Absolutely! :lemcat:

Never thought it was going to be THAT hard!


I see you have struggles with some levels. I can give you some hints if you want =)

I've now downloaded the most recent version for sure, and yes - some hints would be great!


Ok, let's go!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline WillLem

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Never thought it was going to be THAT hard!

Haha! :crylaugh: I probably made it look harder than it actually was by not planning the order of the actions first. :forehead:

I'm more of a do-er than a planner, so for pause-frees I tend to make multiple attempts that basically involve gradually shaping the final solution. If I took the time to plan it all first, it would likely take fewer attempts and look easier, but I wouldn't find that approach as much fun! ;P :lemcat:
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 12:04:53 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:21:14 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Episode #6: Lemmings Plus VI by namida is here!!!

8-) 8-) :lemcat:

Also: Just looking for a bit of feedback on this series so far. What do people like about it, what could be better, general stuff like that. If you've been watching each episode and you have a moment to offer some comments I'd be very grateful.

One thing I'm thinking is that the episodes are quite long... I was hoping they'd be no more than an hour each, but since I'm taking on a whole rank in one episode, the times are getting longer and longer. Is this an issue, or do people enjoy having a nice long LP to watch?

Offline namida

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Episode #6: Lemmings Plus VI by namida is here!!!

8-) 8-) :lemcat:

Also: Just looking for a bit of feedback on this series so far. What do people like about it, what could be better, general stuff like that. If you've been watching each episode and you have a moment to offer some comments I'd be very grateful.

One thing I'm thinking is that the episodes are quite long... I was hoping they'd be no more than an hour each, but since I'm taking on a whole rank in one episode, the times are getting longer and longer. Is this an issue, or do people enjoy having a nice long LP to watch?

I would personally say that an hour and a half is a bit on the long side - my thoughts is that 30 - 40 minutes is a good episode length, although shorter would be okay too (but shouldn't be too short - I'd say around 15 minutes should be the minimum, though this too doesn't need to be exact).

To be clear, this doesn't mean I'm not going to watch it - I still will! - just giving my input in general.

Offline WillLem

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[POLL][LP Series] WillLem Plays Through Just The First Rank [POLL]
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2020, 12:59:50 AM »
I would personally say that an hour and a half is a bit on the long side - my thoughts is that 30 - 40 minutes is a good episode length

I agree - an hour tops is what I aim for generally, but even with copious edits the episodes can easily end up going well over that. I think it's mainly the nature of the series - I'm playing a full rank in one episode, and they're all levels I've never played before. My first attempt at solving levels is almost never my best (as you've clearly seen!), so these episodes are largely me scrabbling to put just about any solution I can find together, and I often spend far longer on levels than I actually need to.

Two things occur to me here: 1) Maybe it's worth me taking a quick glance at each level first before recording, so my subconscious can get to work on a solution for the levels which are the least obvious, and then the recording will be quicker and the episodes therefore shorter. However, 2) I think that doing it this way might take something away from the fact that what you're seeing in these episodes is me taking the levels on for the first time! Maybe there's been enough of that so far, though...

What do other people think about this? Your opinions do matter, please share!

Also, each episode takes well over 2 hours to film and then probably double that to edit. It's a lot of work, so...

I've put up a poll to get an idea of viewership of the series so far.

If people are enjoying the series, then I'll continue with the full list of packs in the OP. If not, or if interest is fairly low, I might limit it to 8 or 10 episodes and just choose a few more that I definitely want to cover in this series.

Either way, my next video series is definitely going back to the shorter format of my Pause-free Playthroughs! - these were much quicker to film, edit, and of course watch. I think shorter videos are better suited to my presentation style as well.

Then again, I could well be overthinking all of this. Comments, discussion and feedback are, again, very welcome... :lemcat:

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [POLL][LP Series] WillLem Plays Through Just The First Rank [POLL]
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2020, 06:42:32 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that you can always do other content in between episodes. Thus, you can chip away at the list a little bit at a time while still making other (shorter if desired) content. Also, don't feel like you have to do the whole rank in one episode! It's okay to split a pack up into multiple episodes to keep the episode length to more manageable levels (in general, I'd suggest between 25 minutes and 1 hour per episode for most LPs - shorter usually ends just as the viewer is getting all nice and settled in, while longer can be hard to sit through).

Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL][LP Series] WillLem Plays Through Just The First Rank [POLL]
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2020, 10:57:39 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that you can always do other content in between episodes. Thus, you can chip away at the list a little bit at a time while still making other (shorter if desired) content.

That's true.. I have been doing other things as well, hence the long gaps in between episodes. I probably will end up doing the whole list, because looking at it it would be very difficult to shortlist what's there; I'm looking forward to doing all of these packs. I think the best thing to do would be to find a way to limit the length of the episodes to 1 hour.

Also, don't feel like you have to do the whole rank in one episode! It's okay to split a pack up into multiple episodes to keep the episode length to more manageable levels

I have thought about doing it this way, but I definitely prefer the idea of keeping one pack to one episode, at least for this series. My most likely approach to this going forward is that I'll glance over the levels before recording - not play them, just literally take a quick look and see how many levels there are, what sort of difficulty they present, etc. I might also limit playing time for each level as well, which I think is a good idea given the nature of the series topic: easy levels should ideally be do-able within a short amount of time.

This said, I'm aware that Rank 1 doesn't necessarily have to be easy, and that some creators have experimented with not having an "easy" rank at all, and starting with a medium difficulty rank. But the main premise of this series is to find out what makes a good easy level, so ultimately that's what I'm interested in exploring. Therefore, I'm happy to skip levels which are too hard, and thus mostly irrelevant for this series. If this means skipping most of the levels in the rank, then so be it.

That said, I don't want to rush my way through the packs at all, so I'm likely to continue spending a good amount of time actually filming the episodes and playing the levels. But, if I end up skipping a level or not finding a solution within a given amount of time, I might just edit it out of the episode altogether.

Keep the opinions/comments coming; I haven't made my mind up yet about any of this really. It's great to see that people seem to be interested in the series, as indicated by the poll results so far.

Please do respond to the POLL if you haven't done so already.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 11:03:31 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Here's Episode #7: Sammings 2 by Mantha16

The shortest episode yet!!! :o :lem-shocked: :lem-mindblown:

This main LP is actually only 20 minutes long but features a 35 minute bonus afterwards, for those who like the longer videos 8-)

So yeah, OK, altogether it's not the shortest episode yet :P

Offline mantha16

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what i particularly loved is how the one you think you backrouted in leminas is actually harder than the intended solution and do you want the replay for the level you gave up on?

Offline WillLem

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what i particularly loved is how the one you think you backrouted in leminas is actually harder than the intended solution

It's often the case that backroutes are more fiddly and complicated than the intended solution. I find it fascinating that a person can design a level very carefully, and someone else can see something totally different in the same map and skillset.

do you want the replay for the level you gave up on?

Sure, I'd be interested to see the full set of intended replays for this pack if you have them.

Offline mantha16

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ok ill put it up in a bit

Offline mantha16

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had to replay the pack cos i was missing a few replays but ill post them on the sammings 2 thread


Offline mobius

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a few ranks/packs I didn't see on the list I recommend offhand;

Insane Steve's World
Clammings (probably the hardest out of these but nothing too insane I think)
PimoLems (can't remember how difficult the first rank is but I think it's pretty easy)
Dovelems
"remember the strategy against feeling powerless: 1. become more conscious about yourself, your actions and the world around you, 2. take every opportunity for solidarity, support people and organizations, who are active at the "front" and 3rd. Be grateful for the good you hold in your hand and share it generously. This way you will have an enormous effect - little drops of water, little grains of sand, make the mighty ocean and the beautiful land" -Andreas Vollenweider



Offline kaywhyn

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Awesome! :thumbsup: I will watch the whole thing later on, but I have noticed two things just from a quick search during the video: You were able to solve both Painless 1 and Painless 5 much faster than I did :-[ I don't supposed you had watched my LP before recording your first rank playthrough? It's not a problem if you did. It always makes me happy to hear/read that others are indeed watching my videos. Then again, you mentioned at the very beginning of the video that this is the first time you are playing the pack, which would mean that this is indeed the very first time you are seeing any of the 10 levels of the Painless rank. If you watch Part 1 of my playthrough of Lemmings Migration, believe it or not my dumb moments on those levels are both real and authentic. I really was stumped for a good 5 and 15 minutes on those two levels, respectively. You can even tell that I took it in great stride and still had a great time during my LP despite already being stumped on the first level of the pack. I think I pretty much guaranteed amusement and laughter with Part 1 of the LP just from that :P No worries, though. Not only am I more than happy to show people how I approach level solving, I was trying to be entertaining at times as well and just to show viewers that I was enjoying myself during the LP.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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You were able to solve both Painless 1 and Painless 5 much faster than I did :-[ I don't supposed you had watched my LP before recording your first rank playthrough?

Not at all, this was the first time I had seen/played these levels. I have been playing Lemmings a lot over the past week, so I guess my brain was just primed for it! :lemcat: In all honesty, I can assure you that I too was very surprised by how quickly I made it through these levels!

EDIT - Another thing to consider is that I do edit these episodes, and I tend to cut out relatively long periods of me just "thinking" ;P The episode was about 44 minutes before edits, and is now 36 minutes.

I think I pretty much guaranteed amusement and laughter with Part 1 of the LP just from that :P No worries, though. Not only am I more than happy to show people how I approach level solving, I was trying to be entertaining at times as well and just to show viewers that I was enjoying myself during the LP.

I've watched a few of your LPs and they're great, very entertaining. It's good to see that even the best solvers can sometimes struggle with a level, but equally it's good to learn from those moments of genius when you realise what the solution is, or think of an unusual technique that maybe others wouldn't have thought to try :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 06:21:17 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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Not at all, this was the first time I had seen/played these levels. I have been playing Lemmings a lot over the past week, so I guess my brain was just primed for it! :lemcat: In all honesty, I can assure you that I too was very surprised by how quickly I made it through these levels!

EDIT - Another thing to consider is that I do edit these episodes, and I tend to cut out relatively long periods of me just "thinking" ;P The episode was about 44 minutes before edits, and is now 36 minutes.

I believe you. It's amazing when and where the stumpers are for different people. Another thing I can say is that the route you took in Painless 2 was initially the one I tried, but I ended up rejecting it too quickly, and so I went up on the left side instead.

Ah, yes, I'm not huge on video editing at all, since I don't know how. I don't like the way I have the game on pause for way too long during my LPs, though. Guess I haven't found the best way on how to do them smoothly yet. I also need to cut down on the video length, as most of them end up being over an hour long.   

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I've watched a few of your LPs and they're great, very entertaining. It's good to see that even the best solvers can sometimes struggle with a level, but equally it's good to learn from those moments of genius when you realise what the solution is, or think of an unusual technique that maybe others wouldn't have thought to try :thumbsup:

Thanks for letting me know that my LPs have been great to watch :thumbsup: I wasn't sure if I was coming off as too boring in my videos, especially since I sound monotonous most of the time. Yea, I remember you told me that you've seen my Doomsday LP.  I've definitely been having so much fun doing the LPs. I also remember that you asked Armani if he considered doing LPs, to which he said that he doesn't have any future plans to for various reasons he outlined. TBT, I had decided to try LPing before he said that he wouldn't do any LPs, so I guess in a way I'm filling that gap and answered to your call of you wanting to see LPs of level packs. As I already said before, I especially think the community could use more LPers anyway, so I be more than happy to fill this niche both to allow others to see and hear my level solving process, as well as some good entertainment. I know a few others here have expressed huge delight that I'm LPing.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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As I already said before, I especially think the community could use more LPers anyway, so I be more than happy to fill this niche both to allow others to see and hear my level solving process, as well as some good entertainment

Good for you kaywhyn, keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

Offline ericderkovits

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Hey why not LP lemmings Open Air(the first rank) as this is a great pack. Also If I can solve the 1st rank then I know you can. Since I'm the worst solver on the forum.

Offline namida

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Hey why not LP lemmings Open Air(the first rank) as this is a great pack. Also If I can solve the 1st rank then I know you can. Since I'm the worst solver on the forum.

It's a great pack so far, for sure, but it's probably way too hard for what WillLem is going for here. For an LP, it's often not just enough that the player can solve the levels, it also shouldn't take them too long to do so.

Offline kaywhyn

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Also, you need to take into consideration that the rank is 30 levels. Even if WillLem does manage to solve all of the levels, I would estimate that it would still take a little over 3 or 4 hours, even with edits.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Well, maybe ericderkovits can add how long it took him in total to solve the 30 levels of the Soft rank? ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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ok, maybe he could Lp 10 levels in a rank at time, break it up into 3 videos with 10 each. Or even if he can't solve particular levels, he can skip them as he's done in other Lp's. Also
for your info I did levels 12-30 of soft last night perhaps bout 5 hours. and 1-11 probably took maybe 1 1//2 hours. so Probably in total for the soft rank maybe 6 1/2 to 7 hours total. For me that
is good, for others probably NOT good. But remember I'm not very good at solving. I just figured Willem is better than me, so if I can do it, anybody can. Plus he only LP's 1st ranks.

Offline kaywhyn

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Along with the good point that namida brought up, you seem to forget that WillLem has said that he prefers to not split the LP of first ranks of his series into multiple videos. Now if he was LPing the entire pack, yes that's a viable strategy to break it up into multiple videos, as I do that. In regards to the total time it took to solve the Soft rank, I think that is somewhat reasonable for players with a similar solving caliber to yours, even if it's a bit long. Even then, how fast you solve levels/entire ranks is irrelevant, as the only thing that matters is if you end up being able to solve the level, then you're really no worse off than others who solve it much faster.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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What I've decided going forward is that I stop recording when I get to 1 hour, so the video (with edits) is always guaranteed to be under 1 hour. However many levels I can solve in that time is what goes into the LP. Ideally, it shouldn't take that long to get through the first rank of a pack anyway! If it does, then I'd suggest that players are even less likely to take on the later ranks.

Maybe this is why there's a shift towards labelling them as "groups" rather than "ranks", since the difficulty seems to be extremely subjective, varying quite wildly from one pack to the next, and not always representing the traditional "beginner, novice, expert, master" pack structure.

This is why I've tried several times to suggest/introduce a Forum-wide difficulty standard which level designers can match up their levels to in order to give a clear idea of what difficulty the player can expect. The issue is that one person's "easy, medium, hard" is another person's "hard, extra hard, forget it!" So, the problem remains of how to accurately advertise a pack's difficulty.

Anyways, the main goals of this series are to a) find out what makes a "good easy level", and b) showcase as much custom content as I can. So, if I end up only playing a few levels within the space of an hour, it's still more than possible to achieve both of those goals even though I might not have LP'd the full group of levels.

Thanks everyone for getting involved btw, it's good to know that people are interested in the series. I may well take Eric's suggestion and do Open Air instead of World Tour as Strato's pack for the series, but if namida's comment is anything to go by, it may end up only being a handful of levels in that episode! ;P
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 12:10:57 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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What I've decided going forward is that I stop recording when I get to 1 hour, so the video (with edits) is always guaranteed to be under 1 hour. However many levels I can solve in that time is what goes into the LP. Ideally, it shouldn't take that long to get through the first rank of a pack anyway!

Great idea. As is the case of difficulty being very subjective, solving time of an entire rank will vary greatly with people, the most prominent factor being the skill of the player. Obviously those who are experts will be able to solve entire ranks in a much faster time than those who are not as experienced. For comparison, if I'm not mistaken it took me about 2 - 2.5 hours to complete the entire Soft rank of LOA :P Certainly the somewhat anticipated high difficulty is to blame here, and also with how a couple of levels took me longer than usual to solve. In contrast, I breezed through the first rank of Gigalems, Geofflems, and Copycat Lemmings in about half an hour each, where they also all have 30 levels in each rank (i.e, each level of the first rank took only about a minute) as well. To be fair, the difficulty of these packs are much closer or even easier than the original Lemmings, hence the much faster completion time of the first ranks. Finally, for packs like United and LWT, with 41 and 40 levels in each rank, they pretty much took me a good 3-4 hours and 2-3 hours, respectively, to get through the first rank. So, even with nothing overly difficult in the Pacifism rank of United, it still took someone like me several hours to complete, while in LWT's Noisemaker rank the difficulty jumps all over the place, with several levels that are too hard for its position.

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Anyways, the main goals of this series are to a) find out what makes a "good easy level", and b) showcase as much custom content as I can. So, if I end up only playing a few levels within the space of an hour, it's still more than possible to achieve both of those goals even though I might not have LP'd the full group of levels.

Precisely! ;)

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Thanks everyone for getting involved btw, it's good to know that people are interested in the series. I may well take Eric's suggestion and do Open Air instead of World Tour as Strato's pack for the series, but if namida's comment is anything to go by, it may end up only being a handful of levels in that episode! ;P

The only thing you give up is the extremely artistic levels by doing LOA instead, but for LOA Strato prioritized puzzles over artistic quality, where it's the other way around with LWT, given the premise of the pack of the lemmings being a band traveling to various geographical locations. Not to mention there's less levels in each rank in LOA than with LWT. Nevertheless, LOA might be the better choice to LP given that there's less levels in each rank and the difficulty isn't as over the place as it is with LWT's first rank. Also, almost every level in the Noisemaker rank of LWT has a pre-text, so that slows the LP even more and causes you to fit in less levels. Still, the somewhat high difficulty is also something to take into consideration when deciding whether or not to LP LOA's first rank. Of course, my completion time of 2 - 2.5 hours shouldn't deter you :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Thanks for providing those playing durations, kaywhyn! ;)

@WillLem:
Indeed, even with simple levels, don't underestimate how long it will take you to get through them all if there are 40 of them! :P

The criticism that the difficulty on the Noisemaker rank jumps all over the place is certainly partly justified. ;) The reason I say "partly" is because I see the same subjectivity of difficulty at work here that also applies between ranks.

In particular, I'd say difficulty on the Noisemaker rank of LWT is more subjective than on the Soft rank of LOA, simply because the Noisemaker rank is all about teaching skill tricks:

- If you already know a given trick, you will consider a level too easy (we can see this at work again e.g. with Soft 07 in LOA)
- If you don't know a trick, you will consider a level hard, possibly even though it's spelled out in the pre-level text

Note that I  updated the pre-level text to state their tricks a little more explicitly (since the Let's Plays) on two Noisemaker levels where I considered the tricks to be the most obscure ones (Noisemaker 08 and 39).

I did this so that those levels don't become early roadblocks when they're actually just trying to teach something. Thus, I hope that especially Noisemaker 08 will no longer be as much of a roadblock as it used to be (note that both LPers back then found alternative solutions, that I sadly had to break despite how cool they were, simply because it was necessary to teach this trick on this level - since it's required on a later one). ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Also, as Strato has seen and if my LP of Lemmings Migration is any indication, I still ended up struggling on some of the levels, some much longer than usual. It goes to show how very hasty I was when I thought I wouldn't have any problems with any packs considered less difficult than United, which as we all know is probably the hardest pack there currently is. So, the whole point is this: Just because I solved all of the hardest pack doesn't automatically mean I won't struggle with less difficult packs than it. Quite the contrary. In the same way, there isn't any proof in the form of an LP or anything, but I still ended up struggling with an intermediate pack like Strato's LWT, most notably in the first two ranks. Same with some Legend and Groupie levels, while the rest of the ranks there was generally only 1 or 2 levels that gave me problems.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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United, which as we all know is probably the hardest pack there currently is

You see, I just accepted that claim for a while, but aren't you still stuck on NepsterLems? ;)

For the longest time, NepsterLems was considered the hardest pack in existence. Then Gronkling started working on a pack called Lemmings Evolution, which a lot of people somehow just "expected" to become the new hardest pack in existence. I think that pack never got out of its demo stage, but I did play those first five levels from the demo, and yes, it did indeed look like it was shaping up to become something extremely difficult.

I think with United, it took the top spot because a lot of people who had been here for a longer time (and who had therefore beaten NepsterLems) got stumped by it.
But if you have solved all of United, yet are still stuck on NepsterLems (granted, I don't know for how long you've been stuck) - meaning we now also have people who beat United, but not NepsterLems - those packs might actually be somewhat equal in difficulty.

What you definitely can say about United is that it's also more complex, because it makes use of all the skills up to the Shimmier, whereas NepsterLems only contains the classic 8, simply because it's so much older.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Nepster and IchoTolot both make extremely hard levels (at least, when they want to; both have deliberately made easier levels on many occasions too), but there's quite a difference in their style of difficulty.

FWIW though, I haven't completed either NepsterLems or Lemmings United; however, in NepsterLems, I managed to get to the final rank with, until the level that had me stumped last time I played, usually not needing to spend too long on any single level. On the other hand, United, in the 2nd rank I'm already regularly spending ages on each level. So I'd say United is harder and it's not even close, personally.

Offline kaywhyn

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Nepster and IchoTolot both make extremely hard levels (at least, when they want to; both have deliberately made easier levels on many occasions too), but there's quite a difference in their style of difficulty.

Absolutely, no disagreement there. From what I have played of Nepsterlems so far, Nepster had the tendency to make very small levels, usually 1 screeners or close to it, but they are still deceivingly hard. A lot of times I kept thinking I was a skill short. On the other hand, United has a lot of very large levels, and you'll certainly see that if you can finish and get yourself past the Neutrality rank. They have the tendency to appear to be very difficult levels, but I think they have the psychological effect of being very intimidating more than anything. Good example is the final level of LWT. Initially, I was very intimidated by the extremely wide map size, but I rose up to the challenge and found it's difficult and stressful only because you have to do a lot of skill assignments within the first minute of the level. Once you manage to do the first 30 15-20 skill assignments or so, then the stress is gone and you can more easily take in the level.

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FWIW though, I haven't completed either NepsterLems or Lemmings United; however, in NepsterLems, I managed to get to the final rank with, until the level that had me stumped last time I played, usually not needing to spend too long on any single level. On the other hand, United, in the 2nd rank I'm already regularly spending ages on each level. So I'd say United is harder and it's not even close, personally.

Sometime ago, I asked if you ever completed Nepsterlems, and this here confirms to me that you haven't. However, you are still further than I am, as I'm currently stuck on the first level of Black Hole. I came back to the level last week but to no avail. I think it's all down to me just missing something really obvious on that level that's preventing me from solving it. And yes, completely agree that United is way harder and Nepsterlems doesn't even come very close. I'm also a bit bias in that I feel packs that only use the classic 8 skills are considerably easier than those that also use NL exclusive skills. Hence, this would mean that Nepsterlems is easier than United in this regard. Even then, levels with only the classic 8 skills can still be very difficult if done right.

I'm quite certain that you'll eventually be able to finish United. You did, after all, finish Reunion, although certainly not without a lot of struggling.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline mobius

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I agree the larger levels can be more intimating and feel stressful even if in the end they may not necessarily be extremely difficult, (though they may still be so).

It took me between two and four years to solve Devil's Right Hand (the only level from Nepster's final rank I ever solved), that is from the time he released that level in a small 10 level pack before he finished his big pack. I can't remember exactly how long cause I don't know the dates. And it wasn't for a lack of trying; I came back to the level many times during that time. But I'm proud of that. :D
"remember the strategy against feeling powerless: 1. become more conscious about yourself, your actions and the world around you, 2. take every opportunity for solidarity, support people and organizations, who are active at the "front" and 3rd. Be grateful for the good you hold in your hand and share it generously. This way you will have an enormous effect - little drops of water, little grains of sand, make the mighty ocean and the beautiful land" -Andreas Vollenweider


Offline WillLem

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Then Gronkling started working on a pack called Lemmings Evolution, which a lot of people somehow just "expected" to become the new hardest pack in existence

I can vouch for the difficulty of Gronkling's levels. I foolishly offered to playtest a mini-pack of 10 levels. Solved only 2 of them. Both solutions were backroutes :forehead: :crylaugh:

And - I was genuinely trying to solve those levels as well! My LP series has probably falsely given the impression that I give up too easily when presented with a challenging level, but I can assure you that this isn't generally isn't the case; I can be very tenacious when I've decided to engage with a challenge, and usually find a solution one way or another. However, this series is supposed to be about easy levels, so when I come across something that's above what I consider to be "rank 1 difficulty", I just skip it for the sake of time.

I'm intending to do a series where I solve just 1 level in the final rank, to show that I can do it (and because I've given a lot of air time to easy stuff, it'll be fun to take on a few challenges as well!)

Nepster and IchoTolot both make extremely hard levels (at least, when they want to; both have deliberately made easier levels on many occasions too), but there's quite a difference in their style of difficulty

Interesting comment. How would you describe each of their styles?

Offline IchoTolot

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My difficulty report from Gronklings "Lemmings Evolution":

I think it's roughly the same difficulty as NepsterLems. I have beaten the complete beta version of the pack for a few fixing alterations until development was halted at the time. I would rate both packs as "Hard" in the rating. They definitly belong to the hardest packs out there despite only including the original skills.

I also picked up quite a few tricks and skills in there along the way. ;)

Offline kaywhyn

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United, which as we all know is probably the hardest pack there currently is

You see, I just accepted that claim for a while, but aren't you still stuck on NepsterLems? ;)

I totally missed your post when I responded back. I guess that's the problem with having the setting of seeing the newest posts first that I forget that sometimes there are older posts than the most recent one I get brought to. Perhaps I should change that setting.

Yes, but I think namida, you, and I all are :P The earliest roadblock for me was Planet 13 I believe. Then the next one after that was Sun 7, then Sun 20, and finally my current one is Black Hole 1. Keep in mind that I generally don't skip around a pack, as I prefer to play levels in order. I believe you have skipped around Nepsterlems if I'm not mistaken :laugh:

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I think with United, it took the top spot because a lot of people who had been here for a longer time (and who had therefore beaten NepsterLems) got stumped by it.
But if you have solved all of United, yet are still stuck on NepsterLems (granted, I don't know for how long you've been stuck) - meaning we now also have people who beat United, but not NepsterLems - those packs might actually be somewhat equal in difficulty.

It's been about 7-8 months since I started Nepsterlems, so almost the same amount of time it took me to completely solve all of United. As I have said before, there were plenty of things that made that happen: out of a job due to the pandemic, the fact that Neutrality 41 managed to stump me for 3-4 months, the longest that any United level has ever stumped me, among others. If I was still working a job since the time I lost it back in March, I wouldn't even be anywhere near done with solving United right now. I might still be plowing through the Genocide rank or possibly even the Bonus rank right now.

Since there have been levels that managed to stump me for months, by Icho's definition Nepsterlems would be given the extreme label as well. So, you might be right that Nepsterlems is closer to United in actual difficulty. However, as namida has said, the reason the levels are difficult are for different reasons. At least in Nepsterlems, there aren't any fancy tricks or anything due to being relegated to just the classic 8 skills, and this community as a whole seems to be most familiar with the classic skills. In this way, the levels are simply standard puzzles that are deceivingly tough, and I constantly felt like I was always a skill short in the later ranks. But, the same can be said about the NL exclusive skills, where one just needs to familiarize him/herself with them. Then levels that just use the classic 8 being easier won't be as accurate anymore.

In contrast, United demands a lot of tricks, as well as numerous super large levels to plow through. It's definitely a pack not for the faint of heart, and it's expected that you be able to commit huge amounts of time to be able to work these levels out. Yes, many of the levels took me a really long time, but I was willing to sit through them and get stuck, only to keep coming back and get myself unstuck. Now, I was able to work almost all of the tricks out on my own. The only one I wasn't able to was a particular one that was first needed in a Tension level. Then I went to play Wafflems in the meantime from the vague hint that Icho gave me for the level.

Since I'm currently stumped by the first Black Hole level, at this point it'll be an achievement if I solve even just 1 level from that rank :crylaugh:

It took me between two and four years to solve Devil's Right Hand (the only level from Nepster's final rank I ever solved), that is from the time he released that level in a small 10 level pack before he finished his big pack. I can't remember exactly how long cause I don't know the dates. And it wasn't for a lack of trying; I came back to the level many times during that time. But I'm proud of that. :D

Congrats mobius! :thumbsup: That's better than me since I haven't been able to solve any Black Hole level ever since I reached my current stumping point with the first Black Hole level. I don't skip around level packs, and so I'll be stuck there until I finally solve Black Hole 1, if I'm able to. I'm just not seeing how to possibly solve it, as everything I've been trying hasn't really gotten me any closer to a working solution.

I can vouch for the difficulty of Gronkling's levels. I foolishly offered to playtest a mini-pack of 10 levels. Solved only 2 of them. Both solutions were backroutes :forehead: :crylaugh:

Hey, at least you still managed to solve some of them! :thumbsup: The ones you did solve you probably were still able to offer Gronkling valuable feedback anyway. Even the ones you couldn't solve can still be helpful for him.

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And - I was genuinely trying to solve those levels as well! My LP series has probably falsely given the impression that I give up too easily when presented with a challenging level, but I can assure you that this isn't generally isn't the case; I can be very tenacious when I've decided to engage with a challenge, and usually find a solution one way or another.

I have yet to see any of your LP videos of first ranks in their entirety, but the problem is that a lot of the packs you have covered in this series are ones I have yet to play, and I don't watch until I have played the pack myself first. If I'm not mistaken, only TMChallenges, Nepsterlems, and Lemmings Migration are all ones I have played before you recorded yourself taking on the first rank, and so I can watch those. I don't doubt the truth of your statements here at all, especially in regards to giving up easily :P

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I'm intending to do a series where I solve just 1 level in the final rank, to show that I can do it (and because I've given a lot of air time to easy stuff, it'll be fun to take on a few challenges as well!)

Sounds like a great idea. However, I feel this would work best by asking for recommendations on what levels from last ranks to try, as it's easy to just take one look at a level from the preview screen and think, "This looks like one I can handle, let's give it a try" and then it ends up stumping you horribly. At the same time, since you're just doing 1 level and will keep videos no longer than an hour, this can probably still work since you can still afford to commit an entire hour to just a single level on video if it's a really hard one.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 02:34:47 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Episode #10: NeoLemmix Introduction Pack by IchoTolot is uploaded!

Since this is a very long episode, I've indexed it into 2 parts. Here are the links for easy access:

Part One
Part Two
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 02:31:38 PM by WillLem »

Offline IchoTolot

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Just commenting my YT comment here as well. ;P

- Already noted down for the next patch to mention the nuke on the blocker tutorial level ;)   But there will be no walkers on the time limit level. The lesson to release blockers with walkers etc is subject of a level in the next rank, which your format excludes. That's why it's called "Basic Training".

- The hotkeys displayed in your test are taken directly from your setting, so if there is a "None" then it's missing in your settings. It sadly cannot recognise all your special mouse buttons though, so that's why it's not 100% working for you here.

- I will take away the platformers of the zombie level though readd them as pick-ups. You made your like more difficult as it needs to be there in insisting on using a platformer at the start and drasticly making it more timing heavy. I mentioned exactly in the correct order which tricks need to be used and I did not say "platform over". ;)

- The things missing you mentioned at the end are all addressed in the following ranks, especially the experimenting/creative learning part. There your format kinda handicaps you as you really need the next ranks as currently you have incomplete information on what lessons are being taught.

- I highly disagree though with pointing beginners to the original games or packs with just loads of skills, as these doesn't really teach anything in my opinion and the player will be WAY worse off.
In the worst case they just don't understand the game. In the best case they are learning incomplete information and miss out on most important behaviors causing troubles later.

I had the exact problem as a child! Again hint at rank 3 of this pack which starts teaching those behaviors.
Players who play this pack won't get stuck on "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "No Added colors or Lemmings"! I teach those behaviors!

Thank you very much for the feedback though and I noted some things down for the next patch! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Offline Proxima

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- I highly disagree though with pointing beginners to the original games or packs with just loads of skills, as these doesn't really teach anything in my opinion

Of course they do. It's how most of us learned to play the game, after all.

Since this has come up several times in previous discussions, here's a list I prepared earlier of exactly what a new player would learn from each Fun level (only levels 19 and 26 are pure filler); and here's a corresponding list for Lemmings Redux.

This isn't meant as a slight on the tutorial pack; I think you've done a great job with it and it's an excellent resource. I just think it should be acknowledged that different players have different needs and preferences in terms of how they want to learn the game. Speaking for myself personally, I wouldn't enjoy going through such a text-heavy and hand-holdy pack as my first introduction to the game, and I would only recommend it to others if they'd made it clear that was what they wanted. I think that having all the tricks explained to you takes a lot of the magic out of discovering them, something else I've written about in the course of my perennial disagreements with Strato.

Offline IchoTolot

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Quote
Of course they do. It's how most of us learned to play the game, after all.

Since this has come up several times in previous discussions, here's a list I prepared earlier of exactly what a new player would learn from each Fun level (only levels 19 and 26 are pure filler); and here's a corresponding list for Lemmings Redux.

This isn't meant as a slight on the tutorial pack; I think you've done a great job with it and it's an excellent resource. I just think it should be acknowledged that different players have different needs and preferences in terms of how they want to learn the game. Speaking for myself personally, I wouldn't enjoy going through such a text-heavy and hand-holdy pack as my first introduction to the game, and I would only recommend it to others if they'd made it clear that was what they wanted. I think that having all the tricks explained to you takes a lot of the magic out of discovering them, something else I've written about in the course of my perennial disagreements with Strato.

I still stand by the case that the original games do quite a poor job of teaching things, sorry. This hasn't got anything to do with the intro pack, it's just how I felt it back then and now. Of course "these doesn't really teach anything" was just a big point at that they do not explain anything actively. You have to discover everything yourself and I think that's very suboptimal.

Of course WE learned it through that, but I know several people who tried the game back then and did not really understand it and therefore gave up.

Trying out stuff is the main way the original games teach things and that is only catching a portion of the players as not everyone is suited to this kind of teaching. Therefore my philosophy is to give explanations first and only when they got the basic knowledge giving room towards the experimental site of things.

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I think that having all the tricks explained to you takes a lot of the magic out of discovering them, something else I've written about in the course of my perennial disagreements with Strato.

The magic is still there. Seeing the nessesary tricks in not so obvious non-teaching levels, that's where the magic lies. Teaching them in the first place just gives the player a fair chance when the level requires more than just that one trick.

But anyway drifting away from the tutorial pack and WillLems LPs. I think a seperate topic on teaching methods would be better suited for possible further discussions. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Ah, here we go again with that old discussion. :D

Yes, Proxima, I'm aware of that list of yours, and I fully agree that the late Fun levels were particularly good X-of-everything levels that still taught the player something.

However, the most important "advanced" tricks original Lemmings uses - Digger pits, turning lemmings around by digging and then building, 3-Builder-walls, freeing Blockers with Miners etc. - are never properly introduced in the original game.

Some players indeed learn them by themselves while messing around with the original levels until they eventually find a solution;
others get stuck on exactly those levels IchoTolot mentioned and never move on.

On a different note: NeoLemmix has deliberately moved further and further away from anything in original Lemmings that the community at large didn't agree with. In particular, whatever clever timed-Bomber tricks you might be able to do in the original, if that's something a new player learns from playing original Lemmings in the Lemmix engine or a different one, such skills are entirely useless for intermediate or advanced NeoLemmix puzzles. ;)

If anything, Oh No! More Lemmings is a better preparation for NeoLemmix custom content.
Including the pointless Tame levels :P . Because while in contrast to the great Fun levels, the Tame levels don't teach the player anything, they do prepare the player for the occasional custom pack that throws these open-ended levels into the early ranks.

Even though yes, of course, I am aware that many recent packs no longer do that, but start with simple puzzles instead. ;) I'm just picking up on an old "running gag" at this point.
Looks like my constant rants about open-ended easy levels have been good for something :evil: . Either that, or other players came to the same conclusions about open-ended "skill-oversupply" levels as me, and did so independently from me.

PS: IchoTolot was slightly faster than me, I agree, let's split this discussion off into a separate topic, if possible. ;)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 10:40:55 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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The lesson to release blockers with walkers etc is subject of a level in the next rank, which your format excludes. That's why it's called "Basic Training".
---
The things missing you mentioned at the end are all addressed in the following ranks, especially the experimenting/creative learning part.

I figured it might be the case that the next few ranks introduce more creative learning; that's great, for sure.

I'd still assert that one or two levels in these early ranks being more along the lines of "any way you want" would not go amiss, to help propel the player through these more instructive levels.

The hotkeys displayed in your test are taken directly from your setting, so if there is a "None" then it's missing in your settings. It sadly cannot recognise all your special mouse buttons though, so that's why it's not 100% working for you here.

My mouse side buttons are configured to key presses (via X-Mouse Control), so not sure why these don't show up... maybe it's because they're Numpad keys?

I highly disagree though with pointing beginners to the original games or packs with just loads of skills, as these doesn't really teach anything in my opinion and the player will be WAY worse off.

I disagree; everybody has different learning styles. You're clearly more suited to being given specific instructions and having a specific path to follow. I get frustrated with this, since I prefer to learn in a more exploratory, experimental way.

My first driving instructor insisted on explaining everything in detail, and spent the entire first lesson on seat belt, mirror checks and theory of clutch control; the car never moved. Needless to say, that was the only lesson they ever gave me. My next driving instructor took me to an empty parking lot and had me driving around corners and reversing by the end of the lesson. And, they would only explain things to me in detail if I asked. That was the instructor I stuck with (and, incidentally, I passed both theory and practical tests first time).

Players who play this pack won't get stuck on "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "No Added colors or Lemmings"! I teach those behaviors!

I didn't get stuck on either of these levels, wierdly; I completed both without hints. Strangely, the ones that stumped me the first time I played them were those featuring splat drops with not enough Floaters (Pillars Of Hercules, Steel Works) and those requiring reverse-facing skills to prepare the path (The Crankshaft, Mary Poppins' Land). To this day, I've no idea how I was able to figure out the various tricks required to complete No Added Colours whilst the arguably more obvious reverse-Miner in The Crankshaft had me reaching for the manual...!

Thank you very much for the feedback though and I noted some things down for the next patch! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

You're very welcome, and it must be said that you've done a more than admirable job of the Introduction Pack, it's a pack that NeoLemmix definitely needs. I've suggested in its own topic that it get bundled with NL along with Redux.

I agree, let's split this discussion off into a separate topic, if possible. ;)

No need to do this, mods. Learning styles is relevant to first rank levels, since many of these are aimed at teaching the player.

I'm with Proxima on this one: theory-driven learning can be frustrating for some people, and the Introduction Pack is a bit on the text-heavy side; I forget information presented in the preview screens on at least 3 occasions during the LP (one such instance leaving me unsure as to what the point of the level was).

However, I can recognise the importance of theory, and it absolutely should be learned, but not necessarily in the first instance. I'm more of a practice-first, theory-second learner. I like to discover something on my own, then find out exactly why it worked. Having something explained to me before I've seen it in effect is very unlikely to gel in my mind, because there is nothing for it to gel with at that point, it's just abstract.

Ultimately, different people learn in different ways. The OGs cater more to my own learning style, but I can certainly see why the Introduction Pack caters better to more theoretical learning styles. I work in education (or, at least, I did) so I'm well aware of the need to differentiate learning based on these sorts of things.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 05:48:34 AM by WillLem »

Offline kaywhyn

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However, I can recognise the importance of theory, and it absolutely should be learned, but not necessarily in the first instance. I'm more of a practice-first, theory-second learner. I like to discover something on my own, then find out exactly why it worked. Having something explained to me before I've seen it in effect is very unlikely to gel in my mind, because there is nothing for it to gel with at that point, it's just abstract.

If I'm interpreting this correctly, it means you're a kinesthetic learner. I'm not sure what term they teach you it in the education courses, but that's what I was taught when I was doing my teaching credential.

Quote
Ultimately, different people learn in different ways. The OGs cater more to my own learning style, but I can certainly see why the Introduction Pack caters better to more theoretical learning styles. I work in education (or, at least, I did) so I'm well aware of the need to differentiate learning based on these sorts of things.

Yes, absolutely! I have had to adapt my lessons constantly to cater to the different modals of learning, so I can relate since I too work in the field of education. This we know as differentiating instruction, and is essential given the diverse student population. As you know, there's no one size fits all for any classroom. What works for one student will likely not for another. Especially in the subject content I teach, which is math, I always show my students multiple ways to solve the same math problem so that they can then take their pick on what works best for them.

In my case, I'm a visual learner, and so in the math pedagogy courses I have had to take we were learn to do concrete first, then abstract. Indeed, I learn best by examples, and my biggest complaint with math textbooks is that they don't show enough examples, which I feel largely explains why students struggle with the math. At the same time, it's a bit difficult to come up with examples on your own of a similar math problem, so most of the time I look to the problems/exercises section of the textbook.

However, if you have heard of Common Core, this is a new way of teaching here in the USA in that the goal is to get students to discover the math on their own rather than being handheld by the teacher saying, "Here's the formula, now memorize it and apply it over and over to these homework problems." While I understand that this is in response to how the old curriculum just wasn't working and effective, now that instructors have had the chance to train under the new curriculum, the agreement appears to be that it's doing students more harm than good. It's just too difficult for them, and I certainly can see that, as even I don't understand the way the math is sometimes taught in elementary. It's just way different from the way I learned it when I went through school.

Anyway, I think the NL Tutorial Pack was a great choice to LP. I've yet to watch any of it, but I'll be sure to sometime! :thumbsup: Indeed, I also told Icho he did an excellent job with the pack and that it should definitely be included in the next stable NL version before he released v1.0 from the feedback I gave him.     
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0