[DISC][PLAYER] The future of official game conversions

[namida]

So, I'd like to talk about what happens going forward regarding the conversions of the official Lemmings games to NL. Quite honestly - they're not really something I want to bother maintaining, especially given that much of them doesn't hold up. We have Redux, which I'd be quite happy to treat as NL's sole take on the official games going forward - it culls levels that don't fit with NL culture, and those that mostly do but have some aspects that don't, it addresses those aspects. For those who are after an authentic experience, NeoLemmix doesn't deliver that in any case - they'd be better off using Lemmix, or the actual DOS / Amiga / etc versions of the game; it's just silly to accept all the execution conveniences and so on of NL while then drawing a line at "oh, some of the decorative terrain is gone, it's not authentic anymore" (whether that's a desirable change in general is more subjective, but I don't at all understand the logic behind that being what people draw the line over), and in the case of levels that aren't possible under NL without modifications, there's no reason to say that my approach to rectifying that is more "authentic" than any other.

The only purpose I thus see such conversions serving, is for people who want to use them as a basis for custom levels based on the official ones. And if this is the case - the way I see it is that the conversions should just be a direct conversion of the LVL files. No fat-trimming (decorative or empty space), no tidying up, not even ensuring they're possible; just directly what comes out when run through conversion. It's then up to people making such levels if / how they want to alter them for NLish-ness.

What's everyone else's thoughts here?

[WillLem]

I'm happy to offer to maintain the official conversions. I've already spent a lot of time working on the new NXLV conversion of Lemmings - compiling, restoring and playtesting it, and I'll continue to make sure it's NeoLemmix-appropriate whilst also representing the original levels as authentically as possible. It's a delicate balance, but I feel up to the challenge!

Ultimately, I think opinion is likely to be divided over the official levels, and ideally they should be in the hands of someone who'll take care over the details with a passion for and understanding of the game's history. Like Namida said - those more firmly in the "NeoLemmix Philosophy" camp have Redux anyway (not to mention plenty of high quality custom packs to choose from as well).

I'm happy to take this on as a project and maintain the official conversions of Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings, and the Holiday/Xmas Levels. If it's possible to give me admin control of the Official Conversions post, I'll keep an eye on it like I would any of my packs. Whatever happens, I think it would be much better if they continue to be treated as official. This is Lemmings Forums, after all!

I can see that NeoLemmix is very much its own thing now - it has developed far beyond its roots as a DOS clone and is now an excellent, feature-rich platform for the game we all love. (I even think it should have its own menu!)

Therefore, I understand the urge to want to leave the old game behind with it not being particularly relevant in the context of the NeoLemmix Player. However, I think that doing so will end up doing more harm than good as there will be less to encourage newcomers, and NeoLemmix has a limited enough player base as it is.

So - bottom line (literally!): keep the originals official, available, and maintained by someone who cares about them. I happily volunteer!

[Dullstar]

I do not think Redux should take the place of the original levels; because Redux had a limited number of levels, there are plenty of good levels that simply didn't make the cut. Besides, pretty much all of the actually broken levels have already been fixed at this point.

Other than just being periodically run through Cleanse Levels and updating the downloads, is there any maintanence they really require? While some of the levels don't function in their original form under NeoLemmix, the changes necessary to fix them have already been made, so it's not like it's a matter of having to do a lot of manual changes to get the levels functional. The formats also don't change so much between versions, so really they probably don't even need cleansed every release.

For what it's worth, when I want to revisit the original levels, I generally use NeoLemmix to do it unless I really want to reference the original game physics for some reason. I'm used to NeoLemmix's features by now and it can feel a bit painful going back to not having them. Plus, steel is irritating in DOS Lemmings (and therefore vanilla Lemmix). I seem to recall, for instance, in the repeat version of Smile if You Love Lemmings (I can't remember the name of the level off the top of my head), failing to get lemmings to turn around properly when using the miner into the steel block simply because the steel area doesn't quite line up with the steel terrain piece.

[Strato Incendus]

I think the original packs should be available as a main entry point for new players. A lot of people finding this forum probably just do so because they're looking for a way to play the old original Lemmings levels again. So far, NeoLemmix offered all that, with a bunch of convenient bonus features on top.

I fear that if we no longer have the standard old Lemmings packs for NeoLemmix, while I personally don't really play them anymore, we might be cutting ourselves off from new players finding and entering the game, and become even more of a "Lemming Elitist club" than we probably already are.

Of course new players could be pointed to Lemmix, but I think we can agree that NeoLemmix is the poster child of this forum that gets a lot of the attention, because a lot of threads refer to it. More than than, Lemmix doesn't familiarise players with certain core features of NeoLemmix, such as instant Bombers, which appear even on strictly "classical" Lemmings levels in NL that only feature the classic 8 skills.

[Proxima]

I can see both sides here. For a start, I agree with Dullstar that there are some decent levels that didn't make it into Redux -- either because the levels I like aren't popular with the crowd, or ones that just fell through the cracks of the selection process. At times I've considered reopening the question of whether to add more levels, but every time I've decided it isn't worth doing so. For starters, I believe the current selection is really strong and I certainly wouldn't like other levels to be included instead of any of them. Also, 160 levels (and 32 per rank) is a decent size for a pack and I think we shouldn't overload it. Since we're close to a final update, I will at least ask how other people feel about this, just in case, but I think it's unlikely we'll end up making any changes at this stage.

So, where does that leave the official level packs themselves? I definitely want them to continue to exist in some form -- for completeness, for the sake of challenges, and as a resource for making custom levels. I'm not that bothered about the concept of playing through the original levels in NL as a pack (other than maybe doing it as a speedrun some time) but I think we should maintain the levels for those who want to play them, since this will be a relatively low-maintainance effort (no need to fix backroutes, for example).

As for what changes to make: I think the original, untouched levels should be available for download as a resource, but the main pack should have certain changes to make it a NeoLemmix version. I would be happy to cooperate with WillLem in getting this done, even though we will disagree on exactly what changes to make -- but when that happens, we can always ask for community feedback.

Honestly, I think the existing conversions are mostly fine as they are, and if I were in charge, the only change I would make to them would be to restore the decorative terrain on a small number of levels where I think too much was removed. I don't mind WillLem redoing the conversions from scratch, but it does seem a little pointless to redo all the work that's already been done.

The one place I absolutely draw the line: when it comes to moss on steel, we have to respect that in NL this doesn't work any more, and it must be removed. I'm not happy about the decision to deprecate simple autosteel, but in the end, I understand why it was done; I respect that it's a settled decision now; and we should be consequential and remove the moss from old levels (both the official ones and any other old packs that are still being actively maintained).

[WillLem]

I think the original, untouched levels should be available for download as a resource, but the main pack should have certain changes to make it a NeoLemmix version. I would be happy to cooperate with WillLem in getting this done, even though we will disagree on exactly what changes to make -- but when that happens, we can always ask for community feedback.

This sounds like a good idea. The conversions from LVL to NXLV have already been done for all official packs courtesy of myself, geoo and ericderkovitz, so no massive amounts of conversion work need to be done, just minor tweaks here and there, which I'm sure we can agree on.

I definitely agree that the pack should be NeoLemmix-friendly, but I also think it's worth preserving the original aesthetic as much as possible. The two of us working together on this, plus community feedback, should ensure that the end result is something everyone can be happy with.

The one place I absolutely draw the line: when it comes to moss on steel, we have to respect that in NL this doesn't work any more, and it must be removed.

My changes to the moss on steel have now been approved by Namida: for the most part, the moss pieces are far enough away from the edge that they cannot possibly be interacted with, and I'd say that's enough of a change. There's simply no need to get rid of all of it.

I think the Lemmings levels are the only ones affected by moss on steel (and the 2P/extra levels from that era) - from Oh No! onwards (including the holiday levels) it's not an issue.

[Proxima]

My changes to the moss on steel have now been approved by Namida: for the most part, the moss pieces are far enough away from the edge that they cannot possibly be interacted with

Bombers?

[namida]

My changes to the moss on steel have now been approved by Namida: for the most part, the moss pieces are far enough away from the edge that they cannot possibly be interacted with

Bombers?

I'm not sure if that's so much of a concern to be honest - you still can't reach the hole that's created, it's just a cosmetic oddity. As long as they're far enough from the edges that this is clearly the case, I think it's acceptable - I personally wouldn't want to do this in my levels, but I don't see it as a huge issue either.

[WillLem]

Bombers?

Yes, I've now moved the pieces far enough away that bombers don't interact with the moss at all.

[namida]

I think the Lemmings levels are the only ones affected by moss on steel (and the 2P/extra levels from that era) - from Oh No! onwards (including the holiday levels) it's not an issue.

A few Genesis levels are affected too.


Anyway - after some consideration, the conclusion I've decided on is: As I thought, I'm no longer going to continue maintaining these. Of course, the community is more than welcome to fill in the gap here, but the closest thing NeoLemmix will have to an officially-supported way of playing the original games, will be Lemmings Redux.

In regards to Redux itself - if Proxima wants to continue maintaining it himself, that's completely fine. Otherwise, I'm happy to maintain it as NL's official representation of the original games, in the sense of ensuring compatibility / solvability with any new NL versions (but no further changes in regards to backroute fixing, talismans, etc).

[WillLem]

after some consideration, the conclusion I've decided on is: As I thought, I'm no longer going to continue maintaining these. Of course, the community is more than welcome to fill in the gap here

In that case, please can I be granted admin access to this page so that I can continue to convert/maintain these packs? If not, I'm happy to simply send the completed, approved conversions to Nessy or yourself for inclusion on this page.

And - in any case, can the page remain where it is so that there is still easy access to an "official" set of these levels?

[Proxima]

I'm sorry to have to be the dissenting voice here, but given the disagreements over what changes (if any) to make to the levels, and the fact that we haven't even seen WillLem's versions yet, I don't agree at all with WillLem being given the power to have his versions labelled "official", bypassing community feedback. I don't want to upset anyone, but I don't think this is the right move.

[WillLem]

I'm sorry to have to be the dissenting voice here, but given the disagreements over what changes (if any) to make to the levels, and the fact that we haven't even seen WillLem's versions yet, I don't agree at all with WillLem being given the power to have his versions labelled "official", bypassing community feedback. I don't want to upset anyone, but I don't think this is the right move.

My "versions" are perhaps better labelled as restorations, i.e. - all decorative terrain has been put back, and the levels are exactly as they were originally.

The only changes have been removing empty space from the levels, and editing the moss on steel as agreed. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing else to discuss: these are the official levels, I'm just going through the process of converting them to NXLV and then compiling them as a pack.

Some "version" or other needs to be accepted as official, otherwise you'll end up with multiple, unchecked versions from various sources. I fully expect that the conversions I'm working on will be vetted by Namida for inclusion on this page, and that really ought to be enough. I understand if people feel like it isn't, and that more people should have a say, but... I'm not sure what there is to reach consensus about?

We already have Redux as a heavily edited, community-consensus version of the original levels. Whereas what we're talking about here is a straight conversion with as little editing as possible.

Again, there's not really anything to discuss in this case; I'm simply offering to do the conversion/compiling/maintenance busywork. I believe I've more than proven myself capable of this task, and I have the care and attention to detail necessary to make sure this gets done properly and not in a "that'll do", haphazard way.

EDIT: Besides, I thought the idea was that you and I would work on it together anyway, with me taking on a preservation role and yourself making sure they're NL-ready...

[namida]

From me on Discord, but worth posting here too:

undecided re: what to do about their appearance, if at all, on the NL website. my instinctive thought is to put direct conversions up, with a disclaimer of "these are direct conversions from Amiga / Genesis / whatever, they may not be solvable under NL, they're here to use as a base for custom levels based on official ones, if you want to play the official levels please look at Redux"
of course this does not preclude anyone from, as a community thing, making a not-just-direct-conversion pack of them
either as a new effort or based off  the existing one (or a mixture thereof)
there just wouldn't be a single conversion with an official status
if multiple versions arise, it's up to the community to decide which one (if any) is preferred

To add to this, a significant factor in my reasoning is the fact that NL is not DOS or Amiga etc, and that the original packs don't work so well when just directly converted. They break many NL conventions, the difficulty curve is out of wack on NL due to the removal of execution difficulty, etc. When viewed as NeoLemmix packs, played in NL, rather than giving consideration to their original engines, the original games feel very poorly made - so, why should that be "official", rather than Redux which redoes them to NL standards and ordered based on difficulty in NL; or some of the many great fan packs out there? The only argument is "because the official games did this", and NL has never held that as being a good enough reason to overrule these other considerations.

NL should defintiely have a version of the official games - but with all the effort elsewhere, it doesn't make sense for this to be a near-direct conversion that ignores the majority of considerations of what makes NeoLemmix, well, NeoLemmix.

[WillLem]

Redux is a great remix pack, for sure - and, as you're aware, I'm a big fan of remixing the original levels (more than 75% of my output so far has been levels of this nature)!

The problem I have with Redux being the only "official" version of Lemmings for NeoLemmix is that it's missing a LOT of levels which are fan favourites, even though they may not be "up to NL standards."

I suggest that Redux exist alongside the original levels, and that it be made clear that Redux is NeoLemmix-approved-and-recommended, whilst the originals are simply there for people that want them (and would ideally be full restorations rather than the existing ones that have been edited) - that way, everyone's happy!