[DISC][PLAYER] The future of official game conversions

[namida]

So, I'd like to talk about what happens going forward regarding the conversions of the official Lemmings games to NL. Quite honestly - they're not really something I want to bother maintaining, especially given that much of them doesn't hold up. We have Redux, which I'd be quite happy to treat as NL's sole take on the official games going forward - it culls levels that don't fit with NL culture, and those that mostly do but have some aspects that don't, it addresses those aspects. For those who are after an authentic experience, NeoLemmix doesn't deliver that in any case - they'd be better off using Lemmix, or the actual DOS / Amiga / etc versions of the game; it's just silly to accept all the execution conveniences and so on of NL while then drawing a line at "oh, some of the decorative terrain is gone, it's not authentic anymore" (whether that's a desirable change in general is more subjective, but I don't at all understand the logic behind that being what people draw the line over), and in the case of levels that aren't possible under NL without modifications, there's no reason to say that my approach to rectifying that is more "authentic" than any other.

The only purpose I thus see such conversions serving, is for people who want to use them as a basis for custom levels based on the official ones. And if this is the case - the way I see it is that the conversions should just be a direct conversion of the LVL files. No fat-trimming (decorative or empty space), no tidying up, not even ensuring they're possible; just directly what comes out when run through conversion. It's then up to people making such levels if / how they want to alter them for NLish-ness.

What's everyone else's thoughts here?

[WillLem]

I'm happy to offer to maintain the official conversions. I've already spent a lot of time working on the new NXLV conversion of Lemmings - compiling, restoring and playtesting it, and I'll continue to make sure it's NeoLemmix-appropriate whilst also representing the original levels as authentically as possible. It's a delicate balance, but I feel up to the challenge!

Ultimately, I think opinion is likely to be divided over the official levels, and ideally they should be in the hands of someone who'll take care over the details with a passion for and understanding of the game's history. Like Namida said - those more firmly in the "NeoLemmix Philosophy" camp have Redux anyway (not to mention plenty of high quality custom packs to choose from as well).

I'm happy to take this on as a project and maintain the official conversions of Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings, and the Holiday/Xmas Levels. If it's possible to give me admin control of the Official Conversions post, I'll keep an eye on it like I would any of my packs. Whatever happens, I think it would be much better if they continue to be treated as official. This is Lemmings Forums, after all!

I can see that NeoLemmix is very much its own thing now - it has developed far beyond its roots as a DOS clone and is now an excellent, feature-rich platform for the game we all love. (I even think it should have its own menu!)

Therefore, I understand the urge to want to leave the old game behind with it not being particularly relevant in the context of the NeoLemmix Player. However, I think that doing so will end up doing more harm than good as there will be less to encourage newcomers, and NeoLemmix has a limited enough player base as it is.

So - bottom line (literally!): keep the originals official, available, and maintained by someone who cares about them. I happily volunteer!

[Dullstar]

I do not think Redux should take the place of the original levels; because Redux had a limited number of levels, there are plenty of good levels that simply didn't make the cut. Besides, pretty much all of the actually broken levels have already been fixed at this point.

Other than just being periodically run through Cleanse Levels and updating the downloads, is there any maintanence they really require? While some of the levels don't function in their original form under NeoLemmix, the changes necessary to fix them have already been made, so it's not like it's a matter of having to do a lot of manual changes to get the levels functional. The formats also don't change so much between versions, so really they probably don't even need cleansed every release.

For what it's worth, when I want to revisit the original levels, I generally use NeoLemmix to do it unless I really want to reference the original game physics for some reason. I'm used to NeoLemmix's features by now and it can feel a bit painful going back to not having them. Plus, steel is irritating in DOS Lemmings (and therefore vanilla Lemmix). I seem to recall, for instance, in the repeat version of Smile if You Love Lemmings (I can't remember the name of the level off the top of my head), failing to get lemmings to turn around properly when using the miner into the steel block simply because the steel area doesn't quite line up with the steel terrain piece.

[Strato Incendus]

I think the original packs should be available as a main entry point for new players. A lot of people finding this forum probably just do so because they're looking for a way to play the old original Lemmings levels again. So far, NeoLemmix offered all that, with a bunch of convenient bonus features on top.

I fear that if we no longer have the standard old Lemmings packs for NeoLemmix, while I personally don't really play them anymore, we might be cutting ourselves off from new players finding and entering the game, and become even more of a "Lemming Elitist club" than we probably already are.

Of course new players could be pointed to Lemmix, but I think we can agree that NeoLemmix is the poster child of this forum that gets a lot of the attention, because a lot of threads refer to it. More than than, Lemmix doesn't familiarise players with certain core features of NeoLemmix, such as instant Bombers, which appear even on strictly "classical" Lemmings levels in NL that only feature the classic 8 skills.

[Proxima]

I can see both sides here. For a start, I agree with Dullstar that there are some decent levels that didn't make it into Redux -- either because the levels I like aren't popular with the crowd, or ones that just fell through the cracks of the selection process. At times I've considered reopening the question of whether to add more levels, but every time I've decided it isn't worth doing so. For starters, I believe the current selection is really strong and I certainly wouldn't like other levels to be included instead of any of them. Also, 160 levels (and 32 per rank) is a decent size for a pack and I think we shouldn't overload it. Since we're close to a final update, I will at least ask how other people feel about this, just in case, but I think it's unlikely we'll end up making any changes at this stage.

So, where does that leave the official level packs themselves? I definitely want them to continue to exist in some form -- for completeness, for the sake of challenges, and as a resource for making custom levels. I'm not that bothered about the concept of playing through the original levels in NL as a pack (other than maybe doing it as a speedrun some time) but I think we should maintain the levels for those who want to play them, since this will be a relatively low-maintainance effort (no need to fix backroutes, for example).

As for what changes to make: I think the original, untouched levels should be available for download as a resource, but the main pack should have certain changes to make it a NeoLemmix version. I would be happy to cooperate with WillLem in getting this done, even though we will disagree on exactly what changes to make -- but when that happens, we can always ask for community feedback.

Honestly, I think the existing conversions are mostly fine as they are, and if I were in charge, the only change I would make to them would be to restore the decorative terrain on a small number of levels where I think too much was removed. I don't mind WillLem redoing the conversions from scratch, but it does seem a little pointless to redo all the work that's already been done.

The one place I absolutely draw the line: when it comes to moss on steel, we have to respect that in NL this doesn't work any more, and it must be removed. I'm not happy about the decision to deprecate simple autosteel, but in the end, I understand why it was done; I respect that it's a settled decision now; and we should be consequential and remove the moss from old levels (both the official ones and any other old packs that are still being actively maintained).

[WillLem]

I think the original, untouched levels should be available for download as a resource, but the main pack should have certain changes to make it a NeoLemmix version. I would be happy to cooperate with WillLem in getting this done, even though we will disagree on exactly what changes to make -- but when that happens, we can always ask for community feedback.

This sounds like a good idea. The conversions from LVL to NXLV have already been done for all official packs courtesy of myself, geoo and ericderkovitz, so no massive amounts of conversion work need to be done, just minor tweaks here and there, which I'm sure we can agree on.

I definitely agree that the pack should be NeoLemmix-friendly, but I also think it's worth preserving the original aesthetic as much as possible. The two of us working together on this, plus community feedback, should ensure that the end result is something everyone can be happy with.

The one place I absolutely draw the line: when it comes to moss on steel, we have to respect that in NL this doesn't work any more, and it must be removed.

My changes to the moss on steel have now been approved by Namida: for the most part, the moss pieces are far enough away from the edge that they cannot possibly be interacted with, and I'd say that's enough of a change. There's simply no need to get rid of all of it.

I think the Lemmings levels are the only ones affected by moss on steel (and the 2P/extra levels from that era) - from Oh No! onwards (including the holiday levels) it's not an issue.

[Proxima]

My changes to the moss on steel have now been approved by Namida: for the most part, the moss pieces are far enough away from the edge that they cannot possibly be interacted with

Bombers?

[namida]

My changes to the moss on steel have now been approved by Namida: for the most part, the moss pieces are far enough away from the edge that they cannot possibly be interacted with

Bombers?

I'm not sure if that's so much of a concern to be honest - you still can't reach the hole that's created, it's just a cosmetic oddity. As long as they're far enough from the edges that this is clearly the case, I think it's acceptable - I personally wouldn't want to do this in my levels, but I don't see it as a huge issue either.

[WillLem]

Bombers?

Yes, I've now moved the pieces far enough away that bombers don't interact with the moss at all.

[namida]

I think the Lemmings levels are the only ones affected by moss on steel (and the 2P/extra levels from that era) - from Oh No! onwards (including the holiday levels) it's not an issue.

A few Genesis levels are affected too.


Anyway - after some consideration, the conclusion I've decided on is: As I thought, I'm no longer going to continue maintaining these. Of course, the community is more than welcome to fill in the gap here, but the closest thing NeoLemmix will have to an officially-supported way of playing the original games, will be Lemmings Redux.

In regards to Redux itself - if Proxima wants to continue maintaining it himself, that's completely fine. Otherwise, I'm happy to maintain it as NL's official representation of the original games, in the sense of ensuring compatibility / solvability with any new NL versions (but no further changes in regards to backroute fixing, talismans, etc).

[WillLem]

after some consideration, the conclusion I've decided on is: As I thought, I'm no longer going to continue maintaining these. Of course, the community is more than welcome to fill in the gap here

In that case, please can I be granted admin access to this page so that I can continue to convert/maintain these packs? If not, I'm happy to simply send the completed, approved conversions to Nessy or yourself for inclusion on this page.

And - in any case, can the page remain where it is so that there is still easy access to an "official" set of these levels?

[Proxima]

I'm sorry to have to be the dissenting voice here, but given the disagreements over what changes (if any) to make to the levels, and the fact that we haven't even seen WillLem's versions yet, I don't agree at all with WillLem being given the power to have his versions labelled "official", bypassing community feedback. I don't want to upset anyone, but I don't think this is the right move.

[WillLem]

I'm sorry to have to be the dissenting voice here, but given the disagreements over what changes (if any) to make to the levels, and the fact that we haven't even seen WillLem's versions yet, I don't agree at all with WillLem being given the power to have his versions labelled "official", bypassing community feedback. I don't want to upset anyone, but I don't think this is the right move.

My "versions" are perhaps better labelled as restorations, i.e. - all decorative terrain has been put back, and the levels are exactly as they were originally.

The only changes have been removing empty space from the levels, and editing the moss on steel as agreed. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing else to discuss: these are the official levels, I'm just going through the process of converting them to NXLV and then compiling them as a pack.

Some "version" or other needs to be accepted as official, otherwise you'll end up with multiple, unchecked versions from various sources. I fully expect that the conversions I'm working on will be vetted by Namida for inclusion on this page, and that really ought to be enough. I understand if people feel like it isn't, and that more people should have a say, but... I'm not sure what there is to reach consensus about?

We already have Redux as a heavily edited, community-consensus version of the original levels. Whereas what we're talking about here is a straight conversion with as little editing as possible.

Again, there's not really anything to discuss in this case; I'm simply offering to do the conversion/compiling/maintenance busywork. I believe I've more than proven myself capable of this task, and I have the care and attention to detail necessary to make sure this gets done properly and not in a "that'll do", haphazard way.

EDIT: Besides, I thought the idea was that you and I would work on it together anyway, with me taking on a preservation role and yourself making sure they're NL-ready...

[namida]

From me on Discord, but worth posting here too:

undecided re: what to do about their appearance, if at all, on the NL website. my instinctive thought is to put direct conversions up, with a disclaimer of "these are direct conversions from Amiga / Genesis / whatever, they may not be solvable under NL, they're here to use as a base for custom levels based on official ones, if you want to play the official levels please look at Redux"
of course this does not preclude anyone from, as a community thing, making a not-just-direct-conversion pack of them
either as a new effort or based off  the existing one (or a mixture thereof)
there just wouldn't be a single conversion with an official status
if multiple versions arise, it's up to the community to decide which one (if any) is preferred

To add to this, a significant factor in my reasoning is the fact that NL is not DOS or Amiga etc, and that the original packs don't work so well when just directly converted. They break many NL conventions, the difficulty curve is out of wack on NL due to the removal of execution difficulty, etc. When viewed as NeoLemmix packs, played in NL, rather than giving consideration to their original engines, the original games feel very poorly made - so, why should that be "official", rather than Redux which redoes them to NL standards and ordered based on difficulty in NL; or some of the many great fan packs out there? The only argument is "because the official games did this", and NL has never held that as being a good enough reason to overrule these other considerations.

NL should defintiely have a version of the official games - but with all the effort elsewhere, it doesn't make sense for this to be a near-direct conversion that ignores the majority of considerations of what makes NeoLemmix, well, NeoLemmix.

[WillLem]

Redux is a great remix pack, for sure - and, as you're aware, I'm a big fan of remixing the original levels (more than 75% of my output so far has been levels of this nature)!

The problem I have with Redux being the only "official" version of Lemmings for NeoLemmix is that it's missing a LOT of levels which are fan favourites, even though they may not be "up to NL standards."

I suggest that Redux exist alongside the original levels, and that it be made clear that Redux is NeoLemmix-approved-and-recommended, whilst the originals are simply there for people that want them (and would ideally be full restorations rather than the existing ones that have been edited) - that way, everyone's happy!

[WillLem]

N.B. Greyed-out text has already been discussed and resolved, and the poll updated accordingly.

The reason for this poll is that Namida has explicitly stated that he no longer wishes to maintain the existing NXLV conversions of Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings and the other original games as "official".

From now on, Lemmings Redux will be treated as the "official" NeoLemmix version of the original levels, and it has been proposed that all other versions will be demoted to "unofficial" status. To emphasise this, Redux will be shipped along with NeoLemmix from now on. I actually think providing a pack is a good idea, as it means players have something to play immediately upon downloading NeoLemmix, which was not the case previously, and Redux is indeed a decent enough pack to be chosen for this purpose. However, this needn't affect the original levels themselves.

Whilst there is nothing stopping anyone producing their own NXLV conversions of these levels and redistributing them to the community, the danger here is that we'll end up with any number of conversions of these games, none of which are regarded as official. Personally, I don't like this idea as it could get messy.

I think that we should have a conversion of the original games which people agree represents them as they were intended, for better or worse. I have begun work on restoring the levels and compiling them into packs (hopefully for inclusion on this page).

EDIT: Following the results of the polls, I've now started this topic for the proposed restoration project. Please feel free to get involved if you're interested.

[IchoTolot]

Just make a true to the the original pack. Make a topic about it and maintain it.

The best conversions will gain the most popularity. I highly doubt that there will be many anway so this won't get messy.

I don't really see the importance of the "official" tag. Nothing here is truly official anyway.

So I would go with option 3.

Personally it would even tend to option 4, but I 100% see the need for the original levels being present for other users - even if things like Lemmix exists which is 100% true to DOS.

[Proxima]

None of the above, although my view is closest to option 3. Also, I'm sorry if I spoke too harshly yesterday.

From my point of view as Challenges moderator, it is important that we have a single accepted version of the original levels for use in challenges, and I'm happy to collaborate with WillLem in producing these. My only reasons for not straight-up accepting WillLem's version are (1) I haven't seen them yet, so I don't know if I will agree with the specific decisions WillLem has made such as precisely how much to trim the empty space on the sides of levels -- but if there is disagreement, I'm happy to discuss it with WillLem, and the community if necessary, rather than just editing the levels to my own whim; (2) I know that WillLem and I disagree over the question of moss on steel, which I believe must be removed in NL versions to preserve the gameplay rather than preserving the appearance (and to serve as a reminder to newcomers that decorative moss on steel isn't accepted in NL, for better or worse).

Anyone who wants to play the original levels will be able to play the Challenges version or the unedited levels (when we make these available), or make their own edits. That's not a problem.

Regarding some "fan favourite" levels being left out of Redux: as soon as namida made this announcement, I posted in the Redux topic asking whether the announcement has changed anyone's mind about the size and level selection of the pack. If you want to propose any changes, please do this in the Redux topic while the question is still open.

Regarding "official" status of the conversions, that's up to namida, and from looking over the discord discussion, it seems that he's made up his mind on this. For my part, I think it's a reasonable decision; NL is clearly a successor of the original games, but a distant one, with large differences in mechanics and overall feel of the game. We can never really play the original levels "as they were intended" in NL; a few levels used hidden exits, intentionally precise placement as an execution challenge, timed bombers, and so forth. I think having a conversion pack available, but not calling it "official", may be the best compromise.

As for the website, I like having the level images easily available to look through or link to, and it would be great if we had something like that for more packs, not just the original levels and namida's packs -- but obviously that would require someone to go to the effort of making and uploading the images. So I don't know what the solution is here.

[WillLem]

I'm sorry if I spoke too harshly yesterday.

That's OK, no worries.

From my point of view as Challenges moderator, it is important that we have a single accepted version of the original levels for use in challenges, and I'm happy to collaborate with WillLem in producing these
...
I think having a conversion pack available, but not calling it "official", may be the best compromise.

OK, I can agree on this. But, where would this conversion be hosted? It would be great if they could be pinned to the Levels topic board for easy reference/access - we don't necessarily need to label it "official", but we can at least make it prominent and accessible.

I know that WillLem and I disagree over the question of moss on steel, which I believe must be removed in NL versions to preserve the gameplay rather than preserving the appearance...
---
We can never really play the original levels "as they were intended" in NL; a few levels used hidden exits, intentionally precise placement as an execution challenge, timed bombers, and so forth.

There's a contradiction somewhere here: if you accept that the original levels can't be played as intended anyway, then why modify them visually? Surely it's best to present them as-is, and if gameplay is affected then so be it. That's the beauty of playing the levels on different platforms...

I think it's a good idea for me to make something clear here: I'm not campaigning for the levels to be playable as the originals - I've got an Amiga emulator for that particular experience - I'm literally just wanting them to be graphically identical to the originals, with NeoLemmix gameplay.

So, that includes all decorative terrain/objects, no matter how pointless they may seem, and all moss on steel present and in its original position. It seems likely that most people who are looking to play the original levels will want to see them as intended, even if they can't be played that way.

In any case, I've updated the poll to get some feedback on this particular aspect of the topic instead, as I think that trying to get any version to be "official" does seem somewhat pointless, as Icho pointed out.

[Proxima]

There's a contradiction somewhere here: if you accept that the original levels can't be played as intended anyway, then why modify them visually? Surely it's best to present them as-is, and if gameplay is affected then so be it. That's the beauty of playing the levels on different platforms...

Because no-one ever intended for the moss on steel to be destructible. Yes, I know the original developers didn't intend their levels to be played with untimed bombers either, but there it's just a difference in gameplay mechanics; you can still play "Bomboozal" with untimed bombers and it's a different experience but the same level. Playing "They just keep on coming" with destructible moss is not playing the same level in my eyes, because terrain pixels have been changed from indestructibe to destructible. That's a difference in the way NL reads the level data, and so to keep the level authentic, we have to change the level data to something that NL will read correctly.

As I've said before, the purpose of the Challenges board is twofold -- to have fun challenging each other and solving each other's challenges; and also to keep records of the best possible results achievable on various challenges. For that purpose, the levels need to be authentic.

So, I'm fine with you releasing a version with no changes at all -- I even think it's a good idea, for the purpose of having a base version for people to work from when making edits (to the pack as a whole, or making individual levels based on an original). But for the Challenges board, it's important to me to have a version with no moss on steel, and this will be the only version we keep records for.

[WillLem]

As I've said before, the purpose of the Challenges board is twofold -- to have fun challenging each other and solving each other's challenges; and also to keep records of the best possible results achievable on various challenges. For that purpose, the levels need to be authentic.

This is absurd: on what basis are the levels "authentic" if they're being edited to suit the engine?

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for the idea of having a single pack from which to derive challenge results, and treat as "official", but since it's been decided that Redux is the official NeoLemmix pack, and since it's already been edited to NL specifications, then I'd suggest looking to that pack for use as the official NeoLemmix Challenges pack.

Furthermore, it almost doesn't make sense to both treat Redux as official, claim that it's the perfect pack to enjoy the original game on the NeoLemmix platform, and then use an entirely different pack for official Challenges - it sends out very mixed and confusing messages.

Anyway, I'm doing as has been suggested and I've created a new post for the restoration project, so hopefully this can serve as an unedited version available as a pack to simply play, or make levels from, as suggested. If people want to use it for Challenges, I won't discourage that, but nor will I try to get people to see that pack as any sort of "official Challenge pack". I agree that it's probably not appropriate to do so since the gameplay of the levels is so extensively affected by the NeoLemmix engine, and I'd again suggest that Redux is best for that particular purpose in a NeoLemmix context.

[namida]

This is absurd: on what basis are the levels "authentic" if they're being edited to suit the engine?

The second these levels are loaded into NL, they're to some extent edited to suit the engine. The steel areas are gone - instead, terrain pieces directly have the property of being (or not being) steel. Any fake objects are gone - or alternatively, they're made non-fake. The exit and exit top objects are removed, and replaced with a single combined object that just has the same look as the original one. Padding spaces at the start or end of the title are gone.

Even if all you care is if it "looks" the same, one-way arrows are recolored and have outlines. Traps have secondary animations.

There is no standard by which you can take the exact official version of the level and play it in NL. Modifications will always be needed, it's just a matter of choosing the arbitrary point at which you draw the line, and if that's far enough from the original, what changes you make prior to hitting said line.

Even "whatever the conversion spits out, no further changes" is slightly arbitrary, albeit using a basis that can be consistently reproduced.

If you feel that "edited to suit the engine" destroys their authentic status, then that's a reason not to have the conversion: Because it can never be authentic.

[Proxima]

This is absurd: on what basis are the levels "authentic" if they're being edited to suit the engine?

As I said: because the engine reads the level data differently from how the original games did.

To take a separate example, since the moss-on-steel issue is the cause of heated feelings at the moment: on 3-hatch levels like "Triple Trouble", original Lemmings would spawn the lemmings in ABCBABCB order. NeoLemmix, reading exactly the same level data, will spawn the lemmings in ABCABC order. So, which is more authentic -- preserving the level data or preserving the underlying gameplay?

And I'm not asking this because I think there's one and only one right answer. It's a judgement call in every single case. But at least in the case of moss on steel, I feel very strongly that it's more important to preserve the gameplay (those pixels were intended to be indestructible). If we can't agree on this, that's okay; it just means a little bit more work and two different versions of the levelpack. Not a huge deal.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for the idea of having a single pack from which to derive challenge results, and treat as "official", but since it's been decided that Redux is the official NeoLemmix pack, and since it's already been edited to NL specifications, then I'd suggest looking to that pack for use as the official NeoLemmix Challenges pack.

Furthermore, it almost doesn't make sense to both treat Redux as official, claim that it's the perfect pack to enjoy the original game on the NeoLemmix platform, and then use an entirely different pack for official Challenges - it sends out very mixed and confusing messages.

From the point of view of challenges, Redux and the original levels are separate packs, and neither is "official" (which has no meaning in this context). I am interested in maintaining a version of the original levels, both because I am interested in results from levels that aren't included in Redux, and for the sake of the "original levels with new skills" challenge.

[WillLem]

Traps have secondary animations.

I'm considering making custom unanimated versions as part of the project - mainly for those that are meant to be hidden. Having the visible traps animated is, IMHO, definitely an improvement.

If you feel that "edited to suit the engine" destroys their authentic status, then that's a reason not to have the conversion: Because it can never be authentic.

I agree, and your line of reasoning has led me to question my motivations for doing this... I think it is purely so that as much of the "look" of the original game is preserved as possible. If I have to be completely honest, it's a mixture of preference, nostalgia, and almost a sense of protectiveness over the game I grew up with. That last one might seem a bit wierd, but I'd be lying if I denied the presence of that particular motivation. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

I also fully acknowledge that authenticity is relative: I was only calling Proxima out on it because he stated that as the reason for wanting moss to be removed from steel. However, doing so compromises the visual authenticity. So, I guess it comes down to priorities - in this case, Proxima seems to be prioritising the authenticity of the level's intended solution, whereas I'm prioritising the authenticity of the visual design.

which is more authentic -- preserving the level data or preserving the underlying gameplay?

It's an interesting question, and not one I can answer easily to be honest. I'd say that, since the underlying gameplay is always compromised by virtue of it being played on NeoLemmix, it makes more sense to go with preserving the level data, and embracing the resulting differences in gameplay.

From the point of view of challenges, Redux and the original levels are separate packs, and neither is "official" (which has no meaning in this context). I am interested in maintaining a version of the original levels, both because I am interested in results from levels that aren't included in Redux, and for the sake of the "original levels with new skills" challenge.

This seems like a bit of a cake-and-penny situation. If you want a version of the original levels to use for challenges, I'd say either go with one which has been carefully edited to be suitable for use in NeoLemmix (i.e. Redux), OR a version which has as few edits to the original layout/data as possible. Why use a sort of "halfway" version? It just seems to add further absurdity to the situation, and potentially renders the results meaningless.

That said, I am happy for the "restored" version not to be accepted as official for challenges - that's not why I'm making it. And besides, people can make challenges for whatever packs they want anyway. I guess I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind your decision to create a separate pack for challenges, particularly if it means having yet another version of the original levels!

[Proxima]

This seems like a bit of a cake-and-penny situation.

I'm not familiar with the expression.

If you want a version of the original levels to use for challenges, I'd say either go with one which has been carefully edited to be suitable for use in NeoLemmix (i.e. Redux)

Redux does not contain all the original levels.

OR a version which has as few edits to the original layout/data as possible. Why use a sort of "halfway" version? It just seems to add further absurdity to the situation, and potentially renders the results meaningless.

The results are meaningful because they represent the best possible (or the best achieved) on a particular version of a particular pack. It doesn't matter what that pack is. I think it's important to decide on a single version because I don't want the situation where we have to track results for multiple very-similar-but-not-identical packs, nor the situation where some players find a challenge impossible because they are on the wrong version.

Why use a version with some edits? Because that feels right to me. The terrain under the moss was intended to be indestructible.

[ccexplore]

I think it's important to decide on a single version because I don't want the situation where we have to track results for multiple very-similar-but-not-identical packs, nor the situation where some players find a challenge impossible because they are on the wrong version.

But can you really prevent other people from putting out their own versions of same level anyway?  Seems like for challenge thread purposes we may want to simply consider a version with a few reasonable edits.  We can always reject any results not done on the challenge-approved version, and tell people to start their own threads if they really must present solutions based on other versions.

We already kind of have two versions of some levels anyway.  Sure, Redux is much more substantial edits so there's much less confusion, but as I recall, the level titles at least still remain the same, so someone must at least be careful not to upload a solution for Redux as a solution to a more direct conversion, and vice versa.

I'm almost of the mind that maybe we can create an "extra" rank or similar in the "conversion packs", for the levels that end up having reasonable small edits, the extra rank containing all the random alternate version that don't have such edits and therefore look slightly closer to the original, but may play a bit too differently from the original due to things like moss on steel.  The title can be modified to prefix with "Extra" or whatever so there's no confusion with the other version left under the original ranks under the original title.  The players will understand the oddball nature of this rank and can do as they see fit (eg. ignore it altogether, or play them anyway just for the heck of it).

Or, we can go the other direction altogether and make up for the missing levels via a second, unofficial "Redux Extras" or "Redux Rejects" pack.  Then we can still do challenges on the levels not represented in Redux, and the levels for the Rejects pack can be edited as little or as much as needed to make sense from a solutions perspective.  The separate, still unofficial "more direct conversion" pack can be nothing more than just that, a no-frills conversion without any consideration of how the resulting levels play out in NeoLemmix.

[Proxima]

But can you really prevent other people from putting out their own versions of same level anyway?

No -- but I don't remember saying that I wanted to I just want to make sure that there is, as you say, a "challenge-approved" version of the original levels so that everyone posting results is on the same page.

[Dullstar]

I agree that the official game conversions should be maintained, but I question why we are now considering redoing them. There are already official game conversions - why not just maintain those?

Some of the levels apparently had some conversion issues, but they're already solved.

Yes, there are differences in the NeoLemmix versions as a result of the engine changes NeoLemmix makes. But if those are an issue, you can still play vanilla Lemmix.

[WillLem]

Why use a version with some edits? Because that feels right to me. The terrain under the moss was intended to be indestructible.

Bombers were intended to be timed.

And I know, I know, untimed bombers don't affect the solution. My issue here is more with the fact that you're using designers' intentions as a reason to back this up this decision, but happily ignoring designers' intentions elsewhere. It just doesn't fly.

You can simply just say "the entire steel area needs to be indestructible because we've decided steel areas should be made up of entirely indestructible elements", and that's reason enough.

I'm almost of the mind that maybe we can create an "extra" rank or similar in the "conversion packs", for the levels that end up having reasonable small edits, the extra rank containing all the random alternate version that don't have such edits and therefore look slightly closer to the original, but may play a bit too differently from the original due to things like moss on steel.  The title can be modified to prefix with "Extra" or whatever so there's no confusion with the other version left under the original ranks under the original title.  The players will understand the oddball nature of this rank and can do as they see fit

This is a good idea! I'm very much in favour of keeping the conversions to just the one pack, so I'd be willing to make this compromise if others agree. If not, I have decided to go ahead and do my own conversions anyway, as the bulk of the work for this has already been done. In terms of what happens regarding these packs for challenges etc, well - que sera, sera.

I agree that the official game conversions should be maintained, but I question why we are now considering redoing them. There are already official game conversions - why not just maintain those?

Because they have been edited to not include decorative terrain. The idea with the restoration project is to present the levels exactly as they are when extracted as LVLs from the Amiga version, and then convert them to NXLV with a minimum of tidying up - mainly removing the empty space.

Yes, there are differences in the NeoLemmix versions as a result of the engine changes NeoLemmix makes. But if those are an issue, you can still play vanilla Lemmix.

To be honest, I enjoy playing the levels in NeoLemmix with it's various differences & conveniences - it makes a nice change from playing Lemmings on the emulator and makes finding new solutions easier and much quicker.

This project isn't about trying to replicate the original game, it's simply a full graphical restoration of the levels. The fact that NeoLemmix interprets them differently is part of the fun of porting them!

[WillLem]

Some quick final thoughts on this topic:

I've almost finished making Amiga Lemmings, which is essentially a converting-to-NXLV and minimal tidying up of the original Lemmings and Oh No! LVLs extracted directly from the Amiga platform.

These can serve as (at least graphically) authentic versions of the levels which people can use for remixes, or simply enjoy an experience that's as visually close to playing the levels on the Amiga as you can get in NeoLemmix (the custom skill panel will help with this aesthetic as well!).

Meanwhile, I think we all want versions of the original levels that are widely recognised as "NeoLemmix official", (albeit unofficially ), for use in challenges and to remain on the official conversions page for easy access.

Originally, I did offer to be the one maintaining such versions, but the more I think about it the more I realise I'm probably not the best person to do this given that I'm not exactly a "NeoLemmixer" when it comes to Lemmings gameplay philosophy. I also realise that Amiga versions of the levels aren't compatible with this philosophy, and therefore my compilation isn't the best one to use for this purpose.

So, I just wanted it to be clear that I'm more than happy to see Proxima take the reigns with this, but of course my offer of help with the task still stands should it ever be needed.

I'd also put ericderkovits forward as a Forum member whose attention to detail and enthusiasm for the original games makes him an ideal person to work with on this as well.

So, with that, I'm signing off my involvement in this topic. I'll release Amiga Lemmings soon in the spirit of finishing projects I've started, and I'll make it very clear that they aren't meant to be NeoLemmix-approved versions of the levels, simply direct conversions with restored graphics.

Thanks,

WillLem

[namida]

At any rate, this topic has outlived its purpose, and discussions about other conversions can go in their respective topics; so I'm closing this one now.