Poll

What angle do you prefer?

45 degree angle (1:1 slope)
As steep as possible while still walker-friendly (6:1 slope)
Other

Author Topic: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laserer  (Read 5114 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2020, 07:48:03 PM »
Pardon me if this was already discussed and I missed it, but was it ever mentioned that the laser blaster should stop after a certain amount of time, eg, after 5 seconds?

Basically, the flow I currently have in mind (and to be very clear, this is 100% up for debate, it's just the image of it I currently have in mind):
1. Skill is assigned to a lemming. Lemming begins "prepare laser blaster" animation.
2. Said animation lasts a very short time, perhaps 3 - 4 frames.
3. Blast begins. It covers its full range immediately.
4. Blast continues for X frames - haven't thought about what X should be. Any new pixels of terrain created in the laser's path during this time would be immediately destroyed.
5. Blast stops, lemming reverts to walker.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2020, 10:34:20 PM »
What about the idea of the Laser Blaster possibly being able to kill Zombies (but not regular lemmings)? ;)

I think the easiest way to achieve this would be for Zombies inside the area of destruction to simply respond with the "frier" animation. :evil:
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Offline namida

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2020, 11:55:16 PM »
What about the idea of the Laser Blaster possibly being able to kill Zombies (but not regular lemmings)? ;)

I think the easiest way to achieve this would be for Zombies inside the area of destruction to simply respond with the "frier" animation. :evil:

Quote
Ruled out
...
- Anything that includes, either as the primary effect or a secondary effect, killing lemmings other than the user (zombies or otherwise)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2020, 02:22:48 AM »
Basically, the flow I currently have in mind (and to be very clear, this is 100% up for debate, it's just the image of it I currently have in mind):
1. Skill is assigned to a lemming. Lemming begins "prepare laser blaster" animation.
2. Said animation lasts a very short time, perhaps 3 - 4 frames.
3. Blast begins. It covers its full range immediately.
4. Blast continues for X frames - haven't thought about what X should be. Any new pixels of terrain created in the laser's path during this time would be immediately destroyed.
5. Blast stops, lemming reverts to walker.

Sounds like however it's done, that the plan is for the laser blaster to be much faster than its L2 counterpart. Of course, what the mechanics are are still under discussion, so not all the physics is set in stone yet.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Simon

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2020, 05:21:06 AM »
45 degree angle sounds nice. You really want to make the skills work together.

2^7 is a much nicer rounder number than 2*5*13, and a multiple of the 16x16-blocks, too. >_>

If the map wraps in both directions, since both dimensions are integer, eventually an infinite laser will fry the lemming's own butt, which can be used as a stop criterion. Depending on the ratio of the dimensions, frying your butt will or won't delete all terrain in the map, and lead to elliptical epileptical seizures. Related puzzle: Youtube: TED riddle of the vampire hunter

For a slow laser blaster (e.g., 1 or 1/2 diagonal pixels per frame), you can build puzzles where he has to fry through lots of terrain merely to delay himself.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 05:35:03 AM by Simon »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2020, 05:41:13 AM »
2^7 is a much nicer rounder number than 2*5*13, and a multiple of the 16x16-blocks, too. >_>

*cue bringing out the math teacher in me again* Sorry Simon, but I will have to disagree with your math terminology. You have it the other way around. Instead, 16x16 is a multiple of 2^7. What is correct is to say that 2^7 is a factor of 16x16. At least that's the way it's taught here in the USA and hence what I teach my students.

Sorry for the digression from the actual topic again :crylaugh: 
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Offline Simon

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2020, 06:14:22 AM »
2^7 is a much nicer rounder number than 2*5*13, and a multiple of the 16x16-blocks, too. >_>

Instead, 16x16 is a multiple of 2^7.

What I meant: 2^7 diagonal pixels is a multiple of the length of the diagonal of a 16x16-square.

If we pick something close to 2^7 but not exactly 2^7, it shouldn't be because the number is rounder, but because we want something else than an exact multiple of 16x16-blocks. It might even be desirable to avoid the exact multiple:
  • Avoid off-by-one planning errors both by designer and player, and
  • In a tileset consisting of mostly 16x16-blocks, the blast hole shouldn't look like it stopped exactly at an edge of a terrain block. You want the dead end inside random-looking terrain instead.
-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 06:20:27 AM by Simon »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2020, 06:32:12 AM »
What I meant: 2^7 diagonal pixels is a multiple of the length of the diagonal of a 16x16-square.

Ah, got it. When you specified that you meant the diagonal length, now it all makes perfect sense. 45-45-90, hence length of diagonal is 16 radical 2. Thus 2^7 is not an exact, but close multiple. Otherwise, it should be flip-flopped as I mentioned before. Thanks for the clarification. Definitely important to make sure that diagonal length is meant here, as we mathematicians are quite precise in our terminology and definitions :P

Quote
If we pick something close to 2^7 but not exactly 2^7, it shouldn't be because the number is rounder, but because we want something else than an exact multiple of 16x16-blocks. It might even be desirable to avoid the exact multiple:
  • Avoid off-by-one planning errors both by designer and player, and
  • In a tileset consisting of mostly 16x16-blocks, the blast hole shouldn't look like it stopped exactly at an edge of a terrain block. You want the dead end inside random-looking terrain instead.

Again, all this makes perfect sense to me on the level designer/player front ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2020, 07:50:19 AM »
Instant could work, but another idea is that it could take a bit of time to destroy terrain, but pass through air instantly (that might be what it does in L2, tbh - can't remember exactly). It is a laser, which is made of light, so it should travel at the speed of light (basically instant on the scale of Lemmings), but it does have to work its way through the terrain, after all. On the other hand, that could lead to some fiddly timing puzzles, so maybe instant is better (although to be fair, that can already be done with the other skills that also all take time).

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2020, 08:46:40 AM »
@namida: Thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten about the Zombie killing already having been ruled out in general! ;)

I like the idea of the Laser Blaster with wrap cancelling himself by "frying his own butt", as Simon put it. However, "frying" in this case must not be taking literally, since as just established, the laser won't turn any lemming into a "Frier" (i.e. kill him). He will simply remove the terrain under his own feet eventually, and thus cancel himself like any other lemming performing a destructive skill when he loses the terrain under his feet.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2020, 05:33:24 PM »
I do think that allowing both an infinite range laser blaster and wrap is potential for design headaches later.

Offline namida

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2020, 04:36:30 AM »
Put up a poll regarding the propagation speed.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2020, 06:51:42 PM »
I had to check again to see what original Lemmings 2 behaviour looks like, but it's exactly as option 2:
Empty space covered instantly, removing terrain takes time.

So I voted for that ;) .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2020, 07:35:07 PM »
Taking time through terrain doesn't seem to make sense, since it's a laser rather than a drill. It should be instant - ZAP!

Offline Proxima

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Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2020, 07:59:36 PM »
Well... we could just call it a driller so the name and skill are a better match :P