Poll

What angle do you prefer?

45 degree angle (1:1 slope)
As steep as possible while still walker-friendly (6:1 slope)
Other

Author Topic: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laserer  (Read 2781 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 1866
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2020, 05:38:27 am »
I don't think it's a better idea than the other skills under consideration (particularly the slider), but I have concerns that the angled laser blaster would overlap too much in functionality with the fencer, which I already don't find particularly useful. It sounded nice in theory, but in practice I've found miners more versatile since I can make getting the miner to its starting point part of the puzzle and can actually be turned around with blockers. I can't imagine very many situations I'd use the straight laser blaster that can't already be accomplished by placing a digger pick up skill at the assignment location for the laser blaster, and the angled laser blaster seems like it would mostly just be useful for additional terrain layout flexibility since it has a steeper angle.

I suppose it could be used for stopping shimmiers (either laser blaster option), but it doesn't seem worth giving up any of the other options available.

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 1299
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2020, 12:29:35 pm »
I don't think it's a better idea than the other skills under consideration (particularly the slider), but I have concerns that the angled laser blaster would overlap too much in functionality with the fencer... I suppose it could be used for stopping shimmiers (either laser blaster option), but it doesn't seem worth giving up any of the other options available.

+1 for this. Of the four options currently being considered as strong contenders, the Laser Blaster is probably bringing the least amount of new potential.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2843
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2020, 03:40:14 pm »
Quote
+1 for this. Of the four options currently being considered as strong contenders, the Laser Blaster is probably bringing the least amount of new potential.

I would strongly disagree here even though I did not vote for it.

The added range and therefore the ability to fire across open space and gaps is something a lot of people seem to underestimate here.

The fact that a lemming does not need to be at the site of the effect can be a huge gamechanger.

Also the speed factor compared to the fencer is often not taken into account enough. A fencer takes a lot of time and time is very precious in lemmings even if there is no timer. An angled blaster can accomplish thing much faster.

The only case where I have the fear and certainty of overlapping functionality and redundancy is the slider.

The angled laster blaster would definitly be my second choice after the projectile skills. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1328
  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2020, 05:30:48 pm »
The only upside of the straight vertical Laser Blaster that I can think of is that a Climber would be able to climb both sides of the shaft (like a Digger's shaft).

With the angled version, there is a bottom and a ceiling of the Laser Blaster tunnel.
The bottom can of course be walked by Walkers, which is what makes it more versatile overall.
The ceiling, meanwhile, will be too steep (with that 3:1, 4:1, or even 6:1 ratio) to be used by Shimmiers, since they can only deal with 1:1 ascensions.

Just something to keep in mind. ;) I still think the case for the angled Blaster interacting with normal Walkers, and therefore being more universally applicable, can easily be made over the vertical Blaster interacting with Climbers.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 10992
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2020, 11:38:32 pm »
Just did up this mockup of possible laser blaser angles. Consider red ruled out, it's there for reference only.

This is more about the angles and less about the exact origin point (and certianly, not about the thickness).

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2843
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2020, 09:18:05 am »
I would suggest setting the angle to 45 degree as then a shimmier can use the tunnel (if it's also wide enough).

Imagine blasting a hole in the ceiling from below to make a path for a shimmier for example.

So I would suggest pink as it's compatible with the shimmier and still quite steep.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2843
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2020, 12:46:23 pm »
Thinking about it the laser blaster and to a part the ranged projectile skills have another thing we are currently lacking: Upwards movement.

It is very hard to get lemmings effectively upwards with relying too much on climbers or long builder bridges. Only the fencer is very effective in that.

We have TONS of ways getting lemmings downwards:

- Using the long fall distance of 64 pixels. (in contrast we can only step up 6 pixels)
- Floating
- Digging
- Mining
- Gliding (extremely strong and can be combined with OW fields and updrafts)
- Updrafts
- Mid air stoning (very strong)

That is also quite a part of the reason I am strictly against the slider. ;)

Upwards we are quite limited (builder, climber, fencer and to a part shimmying/stacking) and the angled laser blaster would greatly add to the coverege there. On top of that it can be quite fast and provides range, which is a thing we lack as well.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1328
  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2020, 03:20:16 pm »
I certainly appreciate IchoTolot's support for the Laser Blaster, especially since it now sounds like he might be favouring it over the projectile skills? ;)

My question would indeed also be whether the pink trajectory would be 45° and therefore Shimmier-compatible.

This might make the Laser Blaster more similar to the Fencer in some cases, if it's applied at a close distance. Note that the Fencer tunnel is Shimmier-friendly as far as its angle is concerned; it's just too narrow on its own. However, by sending a Basher down a Fencer tunnel (which he will automatically do because of the Basher's sloping behaviour), you can widen the tunnel enough for a Shimmier to pass all the way through. A Laser Blaster with a 45° angle could potentially accomplish this on its own.

Therefore, I think we would want to try and prevent a Laser Blaster from acting just like a Fencer if you assign it e.g. with a lemming right next to a wall. The terrain destruction should definitely not start "in front" of the lemming and then simply be extrapolated until it hits a ceiling. In other words, it should not be that easy for a Laser Blaster to just go on and walk up into his own tunnel.

Instead, if the Laser Blaster held his cannon above his head, then the lowest altitude at which the tunnel could start would be 9 pixels above the ground, i.e. 1 pixel above the lemming's head - therefore too high for a regular Walker to just walk up from the ground. Instead, at least one Builder would be required to make it up to the entrance of the Laser Blaster tunnel.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 03:55:41 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2843
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2020, 03:46:15 pm »
Quote
I certainly appreciate IchoTolot's support for the Laser Blaster, especially since it now sounds like he might be favouring it over the projectile skills?

At this point I would support both skills, as I see potential in both of them and they both add things we lack. Also, the standard laser blaser is one of the most prominent L2 skills and quite recognizable even among new players. Lasers just have a natural "cool" factor. ;P

Quote
My question would indeed also be whether the pink trajectory would be 45° and therefore Shimmier-compatible.

The 45 degree angle is 100% Shimmier-compatible. As long as the shimmier only has to traverse 1 pixel vertically at the same time it will go on. Example: In 16 pixels horizontally the shimmier can at max traverse 16 pixels vertically. The 45 degree angle is therefore the steepest angle the shimmier can traverse and that angle is visualized by the pink color.

We just have to make it wide enough.

Quote
This might make the Laser Blaster more similar to the Fencer in some cases, if it's applied at a close distance.

In the pink mode the laser blaster has still double the height gain of the fencer. The fencer traverses 1 pixel upwards for every 2 pixels horizontally. The 45 degree angle doubles the height gain.

Quote
Therefore, I think we would want to try and prevent a Laser Blaster from acting just like a Fencer if you assign it e.g. with a lemming right next to a wall....

In other words, it should not be that easy for a Laser Blaster to just go on and walk up into his own tunnel....

Instead, if the Laser Blaster held his cannon above his head, then the lowest altitude at which the tunnel could start would be 9 pixels above the lemming's head - therefore too high for a regular Walker to just walk up from the ground. Instead, at least one Builder would be required to make it up to the entrance of the Laser Blaster tunnel.

I would disagree here. I think everyone would expect the laser beam to start right before the lemming. Doing otherwise could be very confusing.

Also, as this is the only major skill overlapp we have and it does not even have the same angle or execution time, I don't think this is such a bad thing here. In the absolute worst case it is a faster and steeper fencer and speed + another angle can alone be quite a game changer. Especially the speed difference is very large. I am not even including the range ability to go over empty space here!

Also, 9 pixels above the lemming's head would lead to the skill often only be useful in combinations and not on its own. I wouldn't majorly hinder the skills self sufficiency over one single similar use case.

Personally I would set the step to like 6 pixels above the lemming's feet. Reason: Then a player can seperate a lem from the crowd with a single builder slap on top of the step and this brings more distance to the fencer use case as there you are not able to accomplish this easy seperation! :)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 04:00:55 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1328
  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2020, 03:55:15 pm »
Quote
In the pink mode the laser blaster has still double the height gain of the fencer. The fencer traverses 1 pixel upwards for every 2 pixels horizontally. The 45 degree angle doubles the height gain.

Oops, sorry, I wasn't even aware of that! :thumbsup: Yes, of course that would make a huge difference. It would make the Laser Blaster oftentimes even more powerful than the Fencer, though, I'd assume.

Quote
Also, 9 pixels above the lemming's head would lead to the skill often only be useful in combinations and not on its own. I wouldn't majorly hinder the skills self sufficiency over one single similar use case.

Personally I would set the step to like 6 pixels above the lemming's head. Reason: Then a player can seperate a lem from the crowd with a single builder slap on top of the step and this brings more distance to the fencer use case as there you are not able to accomplish this easy seperation!

Sorry, I didn't write this clearly enough: I meant 9 pixels above the ground, i.e. 1 pixel above the lemming's head, because a lemming is 8 pixels tall. ;) I corrected this in my previous post now, for clarity.

So I'd actually place the starting point of the laser even lower than you would. ;) But, keeping closer to the original L2 design, starting right above the lemming's head, instead of in front of it.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2843
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2020, 04:03:25 pm »
Quote
Sorry, I didn't write this clearly enough: I meant 9 pixels above the ground, i.e. 1 pixel above the lemming's head, because a lemming is 8 pixels tall. ;) I corrected this in my previous post now, for clarity.

So I'd actually place the starting point of the laser even lower than you would. ;) But, keeping closer to the original L2 design, starting right above the lemming's head, instead of in front of it.

Didn't catch that as well.  I also mean 6 pixels above the lemming's feet/ground and not the head - so even lower. ;P     Then a single builder step would increase it to a 7 pixel high non stepable step.

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 1299
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2020, 06:14:40 pm »
I would suggest setting the angle to 45 degree as then a shimmier can use the tunnel (if it's also wide enough).

+1 for this. The tunnel should also be walk-uppable, so any angle that allows this (and shimmying) gets my vote.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4100
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2020, 06:24:38 pm »
In the pink mode the laser blaster has still double the height gain of the fencer. The fencer traverses 1 pixel upwards for every 2 pixels horizontally. The 45 degree angle doubles the height gain.

And that's not nearly enough. The fencer is already one of the more redundant NL skills, and turning the laser blaster into just another fencer at a steeper angle would make it a very disappointing 20th skill. Especially since, from the above discussion, it seems the only reason the 1:1 slope is even being considered is to make it shimmier-friendly? We already have fencers, miners and bashers for making shimmier-friendly tunnels, as well as builders and platformers. How about having one skill that's deliberately not shimmier-friendly so it can break a ceiling at a chosen point and make a shimmier fall there?

Quote
Also, as this is the only major skill overlapp we have and it does not even have the same angle or execution time, I don't think this is such a bad thing here.

Skill overlap is bad because this is a candidate for the 20th skill and very likely the last new skill. "Another, slightly different fencer" really isn't something I can get behind when we could have had something completely different like the mortar or slider.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2843
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2020, 06:45:15 pm »
Quote
And that's not nearly enough. The fencer is already one of the more redundant NL skills,

I have no idea where you are coming from here.

We have near to no upwards mobility and the fencer (and the laser blaster) is exactly providing that.

If you would say that a miner does the same it's just wrong as you need to get a lem up and around first for that.

I would say the complete opposite: The fencer is one of the least redundant skills in NL!

Quote
We already have fencers,....for making shimmier-friendly tunnels

That is wrong as a fencer tunnel is too narrow.

Quote
The fencer is already one of the more redundant NL skills, and turning the laser blaster into just another fencer at a steeper angle would make it a very disappointing 20th skill.

Here you are completely disregarding the aspects of a very fast digging speed and more importantly range. The steeper fencer would just be a small part of the applications and I think you are underestimating the 45 degree angle here and the difference it can make.

Quote
Especially since, from the above discussion, it seems the only reason the 1:1 slope is even being considered is to make it shimmier-friendly?

Aligning angles and widths of skills to be compatible to other skills is highly benefitial in general. When mechanics naturally intertwine with each other the game just plays much better and we have more combinations to choose from.

Miner, fencer and builder angle for example.

Quote
Skill overlap is bad because this is a candidate for the 20th skill and very likely the last new skill. "Another, slightly different fencer" really isn't something I can get behind when we could have had something completely different like the mortar or slider.

That's why I stated that the fencer at a wall situation is the only bigger overlap. With this measurement, for example, that one overlap is too much the slider needs to be disregarded instantly as there we have even more overlaps (floater, glider, updrafts,...etc) and it's basically just the skills we already have and nothing really different.

We most likely cannot avoid 1 or 2 overlaps with a new skill. Yes, we should minimize that number as much we can, but here it should be just this one that is from the slightly bigger nature.

Quote
"Another, slightly different fencer"

Again, this only holds true if you completely disregard the speed and range aspects. Especially range here and with a shimmier compatible angle this aspect only increases in importance.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1328
  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
    • View Profile
Re: [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laser Blaster (Potential)
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2020, 07:23:32 pm »
Thanks, IchoTolot; I still don't get either how people can make the case that the Fencer were supefluous. But I know there are a couple of them.

Regarding "making a dent into the ceiling to make a Shimmier fall": Yes, this was one of the things we thought projectile skills could do. Of course, a vertical Laser Blaster (or near-vertical) could accomplish the same thing.

I'd support three different options, all of which would have different uses:
- a completely vertical Laser Blaster like in L2 (but this is represented by the red line, so as far as I understood namida, it's already ruled out)
- a 6:1 ratio, i.e. the maximum vertical gain at the shortest horizontal distance that is still Walker-friendly
- a 45 degree angle, i.e. a 1:1 ratio

So nothing in between (5:1, 4:1 etc.), since this would just unnecessarily flatten the angle of the tunnel and make it more similar to that of the Fencer, but not enough to make it usable for Shimmiers.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels