Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill  (Read 1685 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2020, 09:14:40 pm »
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though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support

Just gathering posts of people that at least mentioned interest in a ranged projectile based constructive/destructive skill:

- Dullstar  (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4686.msg80765#msg80765)
- ccexplore (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4686.msg80764#msg80764)
- mobius (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4686.msg80685#msg80685)
- Proxima (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4686.msg80774#msg80774)

- Myself

WillLem I am not quite sure.

I think that deserves the label "under consideration".

I would put it in as ranged projectile skill though as the decision between spear or bazooka would be more reasonable to make if it actually gets chosen. Then the discussion for constrive or destructive skill can emerge.

Online namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2020, 09:27:51 pm »
I do see Icho's point about that it's worthwhile considering projectile constructive skills, so I've added that to the list of stuff that I'm willing to consider - though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support, which I am fully aware may not have come yet because prior to this it could essentially be ruled out under "Any other L2 skills" (which was my intention, but Icho's posts have caused me to rethink this). So if you do like such an idea - and this doesn't have to be specifically "I like it more than the Slider", just "I think it's worth giving serious consideration to" - then speak up now. :)

Okay :) On my side, I have doubts about the Spear-thrower because, if I remember rightly, the position you throw from could determine the angle the spear ends up having when it lands, so it could get very fiddly even with the help of skill shadows. Still, I do see the benefit of being able to add terrain from a distance, and especially adding a platform to stop fallers halfway down a wall, allowing them to interact with the wall. I think, compared to my original list, I would put Spear-thrower (or other ranged constructive) as my third choice, after slider and ranged destructive.

For this reason I've generalized it to "A ranged constructive skill". The specifics / thematic aspects can be figured out later.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2020, 09:46:46 pm »
I think, compared to my original list, I would put Spear-thrower (or other ranged constructive) as my third choice, after slider and ranged destructive.

One thing to note is that in contrast to the ranged constructive skills, I don't recall either geoo nor I ever used any of the ranged destructive skills in any of our custom L2 levels, or in most other custom L2 levels that I recall.  Although, I did not played Kieran's levels though (and there're a lot of levels there), so it's quite possible ranged destructive skills are featured a lot more there.  geoo did complete those levels and may be able to chime in on how much or little ranged destructive skills have been used there, and how puzzle-worthy or not they seem at least for those levels.

It's also possible that since L2 has ubiquitous explosion knockback effect, ranged destructive skills were avoided for that reason.  Although if the target is far enough from the lemming the knockback should not have affected anyone.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2020, 10:08:01 pm »
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If level authors seem unable to use the skill better than just that, then maybe it's not worth introducing, not because the skill is bad but because it seems like maybe no one will make good use of it anyway, apparently.

Well, the idea that it's "just another Floater" has mainly been aired by the Slider's opponents ;) . For those who support it, I'm pretty confident they would try out every possible interaction that skill has to offer! :thumbsup: And in doing so, they may also inspire those who originally didn't like the skill to try those ideas themselves.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2020, 10:51:44 pm »
To address the worries about precision in terms of the spear thrower, we could consider making the spear 2 pixels thick and rather a bit longer than shorter.

I also thought a bit more about further use cases for a spear thrower:

- Providing a floor for an object than is in mid air.
- A diagonal spear on flat ground could enable a platformer to be assigned there.
- A diagonal spear on flat ground could go over a smaller trigger area of a trap/teleporter.
- A vertical spear on the ground (thrown from above) could act as a blockade. This requires the level designer to choose the right height for the thowers platform --> no precision for the player.
- A spear on the ground could enable a delay in terms of a possible basher assignment.
- A diagonal spear on the ground could help a glider to gain enough height to start gliding. Also helpful for a jumper/shimmier.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2020, 11:38:21 pm »
There has been talk of the 20th skill bringing something totally new, so I've been doing some thinking about ideas which are both novel and useful.

Here's something that hasn't been thought of yet, and may seem a bit jokey, but which might actually be a good idea:

The Randomer - when a lemming is in immediate danger and you just need something to get them out of it, the Randomer places the lemming somewhere else in the level that's a) safe and b) away from the other lemmings.

I feel that this would also introduce a fun element of unpredictability to the game: if we're looking for a skill that will bring something completely new to the table, this would definitely fit the bill!

However, to maybe reduce the potential ridiculousness of this idea, maybe...

The Resetter - moves the lemming back to the exact place they landed when they fell out of the entrance hatch. This would have way more puzzle potential than the Randomer (particularly if the terrain around the entrance hatch area has been changed) and would obviously be more predictable.

And, another idea that keeps occurring to me:

The Sleeper - the lemming falls asleep in their current position and stays there until assigned another skill or "rescued" in the same manner as a Blocker (i.e. by removing the terrain directly below them). They do not block other lemmings, but they can be assigned any other skill from their current position. This could be extremely useful for lining up several worker lemmings who can then perform a number of simultaneous tasks (without having to spam the level with Blocker/Walkers, for instance). If the idea of the lemming being "asleep" seems a bit counter-intuitive, maybe the skill could simply be The Waiter...

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2020, 12:05:11 am »
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The Resetter - moves the lemming back to the exact place they landed when they fell out of the entrance hatch. This would have way more puzzle potential than the Randomer (particularly if the terrain around the entrance hatch area has been changed) and would obviously be more predictable.

This has potential.

I would rule it this way:

Every lemming goes back to their spawn point when assigned. Hatch or preplacer position.

Possibility of permanent skill reset as well.

I think I would still favor a spear thrower, but this has some potential. I would rank this higher than a slider to be honest.

EDIT: Again currently we have movement skills the most. Especially a constructive skill would be a good addition variety wise.

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2020, 12:17:34 am »
Resetter seems cool, but I don't like the name, Warper or something is preferred for me. I agree with Icho's adjustments. I also agree with the concern that it's another single lemming movement skill, albeit a particularly cool one. I'd prefer something the crowd can use. Also, it's possibly redundant with the teleporter object.

I like the spear thrower or rock thrower. I think the precision concerns can be alleviated by making the skill shadow show the spear's trajectory. I'm also fond of something that digs up, like the laser blaster. Pourers might be cool too.

I don't like the slider. It's another single lemming movement skill after we just got two (Shimmier, Jumper), and its role of going down ledges is already covered quite well by Floaters, Gliders and Stones, not to mention downwards destruction skills and construction skills to make safe platforms and ledges. Yeah a slider can get into an alcove without having to prep it, but I don't think that one very specific use case justifies its existence.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 12:43:12 am by DireKrow »
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2020, 12:21:46 am »
I think we can reject the randomer right away.  Even if we ignore that the general sentiment of this community would likely be against anything with unpredictable behavior, it leaves too much potential to open up a backroute because someone got lucky that one time and the randomer ends up placing the lemming in a really good spot that is otherwise impossible to reach.

Maybe if the randomer always teleports the lemming to a fixed location specified by the level author, in which case it'd be like a resetter but not limited to entrances.

=============

The resetter is basically like a teleporter but in skill form, although it'd also reset whatever skill the lemming was performing at time of assignment, so in that way it has a little element of a walker.  I will concede that it might have some potential puzzle-wise.  It might be a bit too out-there though compared with other skills--all the other skills have lemmings doing stuff that are realistic and not magical like teleporting.

=============

The sleeper sounds similar to L2's attractor, except it only affects the lemming assigned to, rather than also causing nearby lemmings to stop.  It definitely does overlap a little with blockers and walkers.

Overall I'm not particularly enthused by the proposed skills, but aside from the randomer I don't have any strong objections per se either.  :-\

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2020, 12:23:12 am »
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The Randomer - when a lemming is in immediate danger and you just need something to get them out of it, the Randomer places the lemming somewhere else in the level that's a) safe and b) away from the other lemmings.

I feel that this would also introduce a fun element of unpredictability to the game: if we're looking for a skill that will bring something completely new to the table, this would definitely fit the bill!

However, to maybe reduce the potential ridiculousness of this idea, maybe...

I think by now you've figured out that unpredictability is the last thing the NeoLemmix community at large would want to be added to the game :P .

Quote
The Sleeper - the lemming falls asleep in their current position and stays there until assigned another skill or "rescued" in the same manner as a Blocker (i.e. by removing the terrain directly below them). They do not block other lemmings, but they can be assigned any other skill from their current position. This could be extremely useful for lining up several worker lemmings who can then perform a number of simultaneous tasks (without having to spam the level with Blocker/Walkers, for instance). If the idea of the lemming being "asleep" seems a bit counter-intuitive, maybe the skill could simply be The Waiter...

This can already be done - and is already being done - with the Blocker on many advanced levels, and the Blocker is perfectly sufficient for this.
The Blocker is basically just there to let a lemming "stand" somewhere until needed (but the challenge is freeing him from that position). In an easy level, this could happen via a Walker, or a Walker pickup skill that needs to be collected first. In advanced levels, it will usually happen in more inocuous ways, such as removing the terrain under the Blocker's feet, but it's not obvious with which skill this is needs to be done.

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The Resetter - moves the lemming back to the exact place they landed when they fell out of the entrance hatch. This would have way more puzzle potential than the Randomer (particularly if the terrain around the entrance hatch area has been changed) and would obviously be more predictable.

Like IchoTolot, I would agree that this has the most puzzle potential out of your three suggestions. But I hold against that: Definitely not more than the Slider. ;)

In a lot of situations, what the Resetter accomplishes could just as well be done by placing a teleporter where the Resetter is supposed to be assigned. Of course a skill can be assigned anywhere, in contrast to an object - but precisely that can also easily make it broken. Keep in mind you're technically talking about a Teleporter skill here, even if it's limited to taking the lemming back to the hatch.

Usually, this would be applied after the path for the crowd has been prepared. Meaning, the way from the hatch is already safe. So it would immediately get the worker lemming back on that safe path as well, rather than maybe having to find a separate path for him because he has permanent skills that prevent him from just going along with the crowd. In such a situation, I actually see the skill reducing puzzle potential, because it makes something easier that would be more challenging and interesting otherwise.

And in turn, if there's still some work to be done on the side of the hatch, why not simply have a lemming from the crowd do it, instead of teleporting the worker back to the hatch? There's no need to enforce everything being done by the pioneer - in fact, a lot of players might consider that somewhat boring, because "pioneer" levels sometimes get frowned at by the more advanced players here. (Because those levels involve crowd containment rather than flow control.)
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2020, 12:39:18 am »
Okay :) On my side, I have doubts about the Spear-thrower because, if I remember rightly, the position you throw from could determine the angle the spear ends up having when it lands, so it could get very fiddly even with the help of skill shadows.

I think the spearer needs to have change in angle to be an effective skill, but if people are ok with things not looking quite as realistic, we could perhaps make the angle changes more discrete rather than continuous.  So in other words, maybe there're only 4-5 different angles the spear is ever at despite the trajectory itself being smooth parabola.  At various points in the trajectory, the spear's angle would abruptly go from one angle to the next.

A slightly different visual, but similar idea, is instead of a spear, the thing you are throwing looks more like a small ball (like a thrower), but when the ball sticks is when a rod would extend and poke out of the ball to create the line of terrain like a spear would, and the angle at which it does so is dependent on how the ball was moving when it was stopped, but still only a discrete small set of angles.  So really the same ending effect as the spear thrower, but you don't have to see abruptly-changing angles while the projectile is still traveling.

Online namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2020, 03:05:18 am »
Resetter, or some variation thereof, could be considered if there's enough interest.

Sleeper is rejected. Basically - I found myself wondering if this would be too similar to the blocker, and/or worthwhile enough. I was going to put it as "I'll think about this and come back to it", but then I realised - if I'm unsure about it like that, even if I were to say "willing to consider" for now, it's pretty sure that it won't be one that makes it. Thus, may as well rule it out now.

And let's keep this thread to serious suggestions, please. Use the joke ideas thread for stuff like the Randomer. Suggestions that are very unusual but have real potential - such as the Resetter - are welcome, but anything involving a random aspect, by this point I shouldn't even need to mention that it's obviously not a good fit for NeoLemmix's principles, let alone explain why. (For reference, the joke idea topic was linked primarily in case any semi-serious suggestions within could be a starting point for ideas. However, new semi-serious starting points that are still clearly falling under "joke ideas" overall, belong in that topic, not this one.)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 03:52:37 am by namida »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2020, 11:08:47 am »
I think by now you've figured out that unpredictability is the last thing the NeoLemmix community at large would want to be added to the game :P .

I know, but there has been talk of bringing something completely new and different to the table, so... ;P

The Sleeper...
This can already be done - and is already being done - with the Blocker on many advanced levels, and the Blocker is perfectly sufficient for this.

Sure, but I thought that it might be preferable to spamming a level with Blockers and Walkers, both of which can be backroute-prone. That said, I've recently seen a few such levels (i.e. using Blockers with Walker pickups) and they're actually not that backroute-prone at all! I guess it depends how it's done.

the Resetter...
Usually, this would be applied after the path for the crowd has been prepared. Meaning, the way from the hatch is already safe.

Actually (and this is the distinction I'd make with the Resetter), I think they should reset to the place where they landed, and not simply re-spawn from the hatch. That way, if terrain and stuff has changed around/beneath the entrance hatch, it could potentially start them off on a totally different route (after having picked up pickup skills that allow this, for instance).

And in turn, if there's still some work to be done on the side of the hatch, why not simply have a lemming from the crowd do it, instead of teleporting the worker back to the hatch? There's no need to enforce everything being done by the pioneer - in fact, a lot of players might consider that somewhat boring, because "pioneer" levels sometimes get frowned at by the more advanced players here. (Because those levels involve crowd containment rather than flow control.)

To be fair, at no point in my suggestion did I specifically mention that the Resetter would always be used for pioneer lemmings; I just mentioned a lemming that's in immediate trouble.

In actuality, with this skill, any lemming can be transported immediately back to their landing spot. I'd say that actually opens up more possibility for levels with multiple-workers; by all means, lemmings from the crowd could suddenly become more useful if a worker lem is off doing something else in another critical part of the level.

Furthermore, Icho's idea that the Resetter has
Quote
Possibility of permanent skill reset as well
would also distinguish it further from a teleporter, or simply another transport skill.

So in other words, maybe there're only 4-5 different angles the spear is ever at despite the trajectory itself being smooth parabola.  At various points in the trajectory, the spear's angle would abruptly go from one angle to the next.

Maybe the spear could be animated such that there are multiple angles, and so it appears more smooth. Upon landing, it can take a more fixed pre-determined angle, and if accompanied by a "poing" sound and a quivering of the spear in it's landing place, it would be fairly undetectable as having varied slightly from its trajectory in-flight.

Here's another idea just whilst we're riffing:

The Bowler - throws/rolls a large bowling ball which, upon contact with terrain, scatters pieces of terrain whilst leaving a hole the same shape as the bowling ball: essentially, a projectile skill that's both destructive and constructive. This is just a seedling idea at this point: in principle, this could be developed into something very usable.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 11:20:56 am by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2020, 12:13:46 pm »
Quote
I know, but there has been talk of bringing something completely new and different to the table, so... :P

Yes, new. Not unpredictable :P .

Quote
Actually (and this is the distinction I'd make with the Resetter), I think they should reset to the place where they landed, and not simply re-spawn from the hatch. That way, if terrain and stuff has changed around/beneath the entrance hatch, it could potentially start them off on a totally different route (after having picked up pickup skills that allow this, for instance).

I had read that part about landing, but thanks for pointing out the difference again! ;) While yes, this may result in a separation of the resetted lemming from the crowd occasionally, most of the time, the hatch is not placed at such high altitudes or in such immediate danger that a path needs to be constructed right away to make some lemmings land elsewhere than others.

Sure, if you have a hatch above an abyss and need a Glider to even get the level started, the Resetter would place the lemming at the point where the Glider landed. But such levels tend not to be too popular, because any type of level involving a deadly drop right out of the hatch usually has some arbitrary hassle of saving the crowd as fast as possible before the actual puzzle itself can begin. By all means, make crowd control and -containment part of the challenge, but doing so by using a deadly drop right out of the hatch is somewhat of a cheap way to go about it, I think ;) .

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Furthermore, Icho's idea that the Resetter has

Quote
Possibility of permanent skill reset as well

would also distinguish it further from a teleporter, or simply another transport skill.

I thought we had agreed that permanent-skill removal is supposed to be accomplished by an object, not a skill? ;)

Sure, that thread was called "object or skill that removes permanent skills", but so far, discussion in that thread had progressed to a point where we had narrowed it down to an object, at least to my understanding. ;)
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2020, 02:02:17 pm »
While yes, this may result in a separation of the resetted lemming from the crowd occasionally, most of the time, the hatch is not placed at such high altitudes or in such immediate danger that a path needs to be constructed right away to make some lemmings land elsewhere than others.

You've kind of run away a little bit with what I'm saying here. It could be something as simple as having to build/platform beneath the entrance to take the crowd in a certain direction, thus building over the landing point. It doesn't necessarily have to be a fatal or even dangerous landing point for the idea to still apply.

I thought we had agreed that permanent-skill removal is supposed to be accomplished by an object, not a skill? ;)

I think the point is that the Resetter could perform that task merely as a bi-product of the lemming being reset to the starting point. Or not, whatever people decide. It's just a possibility at this point.