Author Topic: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]  (Read 8861 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« on: October 18, 2019, 11:07:16 pm »


One year, one month, and one day after its initial release, here's the New-Formats version of Lemmings World Tour at last - the largest pack currently available for NeoLemmix!
This remastered version has had all levels adapted that originally featured radiation or slowfreeze.
I still encourage anyone who's interested to try out the original version for Old Formats, which I will continue to maintain. It includes all levels the way they were originally intended to be!

A huge upside of the New-Formats version is the increased stability. The intense mixing of graphic sets in this pack led to more or less frequent crashes in Old Formats when loading up a level, requiring a simple but inconvenient restart of NeoLemmix 10.13. I have not seen this happen in the New-Formats version yet! :thumbsup:

The attached ZIP-Folder at the bottom of this post includes the custom success- and failure jingles, all sprite-set recolourings (including WillLem's Lemminas, which now appear on a couple of levels), as well as strato_generalmd, my modified version of the general tileset that used to exist in Old Formats. It contains some recolourings of various objects, Colorful Arty's rain and snow animations, as well as pre-placed builder staircases.
If you extract the folder in your core NeoLemmix folder, the styles and levels should automatically end up in their correct respective places.

This is the updated version of the graphic set and the pack for NeoLemmix 12.9.0.

My Instruments tileset is part of the official styles download now, as well as nin10doadict's cattrap.


God gave Rock 'n Roll to you*

The music pack can be found here.
It consists of my self-recorded rock/metal versions of all the standard Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings tunes, except for ONML 04 and the special graphics tracks (Beast, Menacing, and Awesome).
All instruments were played / recorded and all tracks mixed by myself.



For everyone new to this pack: Lemmings World Tour is based on the idea of a Lemmings band touring the world. Every main level is inspired by a song title, with the author line being used to credit the artist who originally performed the song (not necessarily the composer ;) ).

Hence, all the music is played with real instruments, including the success and failure jingles. The levels also depict as many different places in various countries across the globe. Thus, many level titles will refer to a song title and a geographical location at the same time. You will also usually find the flag of the respective country on each of those levels (examples see below).

This pack consists of a whopping 320 levels - 40 for each of the 8 ranks.
These ranks are named: Noisemaker, Amateur, Professional, Diva, Rockstar, Legend, Encore, and Groupie


It also ends with the largest level in existence - one that is too large to even be created with or properly displayed by the New-Formats editor, but was converted from Old-Formats directly, together with the entire pack.
It is strongly advised to switch off the high-quality minimap when playing the very last level (Groupie 40) - game fluency will improve drastically that way. ;)

With that out of the way, let's take a closer look at the ranks! ;)

NOISEMAKER
This rank is all about teaching you essential mechanics of the game and vital, but maybe somewhat obscure skill tricks - rather than the usual X-of-everything levels you might find on the lower ranks in other packs! Pay close attention to the pre-level texts, they can give you essential hints! ;) Also, beware the occasional troll level. There is a certain infamous, lemming-eating Octopus hiding on this rank, and one of the two levels shown below requires the lemmings to dive in a fountain. Sometimes, this pack will put visual aesthetics over strict, mechanical fairness, but it is the exception rather than the rule.
Noisemaker Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Vegas Lights

Grenade

AMATEUR
On these levels, the skills are grouped thematically (upward-moving, downward-moving, destructive, creative etc.), and the more advanced objects get introduced, such as pre-assigned skills and pre-placed lemmings, splitters, force fields, and teleporters. More landscape-like levels start occuring towards the end of the rank.
Amateur Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Shipping up to Boston

Georgia on my mind

PROFESSIONAL
The first levels of this rank are going to test what you've learned about the skills so far, requiring several of the previously-introduced tricks, but now without prior announcement! ;) Also be prepared to navigate some pretty huge cities, as you're playing in more and more important locations around the world.

Moskau, Moskau

Streets of London

DIVA
Now you can really start showing off your skills - but don't get too cocky yet! ;) There are still much harder songs coming...

Weiße Rosen aus Athen

Barcelona

ROCKSTAR
If you want to play on the big stage, you must master how to control the crowd. Can you hold them back when you have to, and make them move when you want them to?

Streets of Philadelphia

Cold Turkey

LEGEND
The songs on this rank will be remembered for all eternity. In other words: Probably just as long as solving these levels might take you! :P

Ganglem Style

The Phantom of the Opera

ENCORE
Here you can find levels from my preceding, Old-Formats packs (Paralems, Pit Lems, and Lemmicks) that also were named after song titles. The only one missing is "Turn this club around!" from Lemmicks. Without that one, there were exactly fourty of them, so I thought they would be a good fit here. They were not selected for their quality, though - but indeed mainly for their titles. ;) So definitely expect these to be easier than the previous ranks, but that might be a welcome relief after the hard stuff! ;) Also, due to the absence of gimmicks, the Lemmicks levels usually have completely different solutions compared to their first appearance.

We are the Lempions (Pit Lems)

All along the watchtower (Lemmicks)

GROUPIE
These levels were created by Colorful Strato and incendoadict: I identified the signature level-design features of most of the active content creators, and then built a level for each of them pretending I were them! ;) Some people have even had several levels dedicated to them - and no, the "author" line is not being used to spoil that for you. Which level was inspired by whom, that is something you'll have to discover for yourself! :P Many of these levels are still named after songs, in which case the author line will mention the performing artist, just like before. Other levels will have non-song names, and therefore no author line either.

Bon appetit!

Take a Byte

Have you taken a guess at which user inspired which Groupie level? ;) Then you can check whether you're correct right here:
Groupie rank level list (click to show/hide)

I hope the release of this pack to New Formats can bridge the gap between very easy and very hard packs a little! ;) It's currently rather difficult to find "intermediate" content. The radiation- and slowfreeze levels from Old Formats could be replicated in New Formats to varying degree - some solutions might be more interesting, some more dull than in Old Formats.

Finally, I have tested each level in the New-Formats version of this pack at least once, but with 320 levels in total, there's always a remaining chance that I've missed something that doesn't work as intended.
So please, report any issues you find, just like you would report any backroutes!
;)


And with that, all I have to say is:
The stage is yours! ;)


*The red Stratocaster from the Instruments tileset is a Wikimedia Commons picture created by Johan Förberg.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:38:31 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2019, 07:54:58 pm »
I will 100% take a look at this soon now. :)

Also: Is this already functional with the current stable release or does it require the 12.7 RC? Sorry if you already stated it and I overead it. ;P

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2019, 08:02:19 pm »
Thanks for the question, indeed I should clarify this! ;)

The current version is for 12.6.5.

I know Flopsy uploaded both a 12.6.5 and a 12.7 RC version of SEB Lems recently. I asked namida on how to best proceed with things, and the last thing he told me was that I could release it now and do the update once the stable version of 12.7 is in place.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2019, 05:03:41 pm »
First of all I still got some errors to report:

I have already tracked down the issues. Following tiles are missing (+ I put the affected levels next to it):

Tiles missing from a set. Here I got the set but the standard library where I got it from doesn't have these tiles. Would suggest replacing them with tiles from the standard library:

plom:psychmd:alt5     2 24, 5 06
plom:psychmd:alt7     1 39, 3 23

For this one gigalem_treemd exists, but not gigalem_treemdbright. Maybe use gigalem_treemd?

gigalem_treemdbright:window         2 02,
gigalem_treemdbright:exit                2 08, 2 09, 4 08
gigalem_treemdbright:trunk_02       4 13
gigalem_treemdbright:leaves_03     6 21

Tileset missing completely:

gronkling_angelisland:block_08    2 33

gronkling_chaosangel:block_23   5 05

I remember these 2 being removed by gronkling's request. So I would swap the tiles out for other ones.

cattrap:cattrap    3 17, 3 21, 5 26, 6 09, 6 33, 8 01, 8 07       

Include this in the download (maybe even in strato_standardmd) + submit to the standard library


I played the first rank (except 1 39 because of a missing tile) and groupie 40. I attached my solutions.

My thoughts:

I think the 1st rank has good levels, although even with the prelevel-texts it fails as an introduction/tutorial rank. The core here is that some of the levels just jump up several stages in difficulty compared to others. I had quite a lot of levels where I really needed like 5-15mins to get it and after that comes a level where I simply need to turn up the RR to 99. For comparison: I would put several of them easily in rank 2 or 3 of Reunion or something similar.

I would either simplyfy the following levels down to ONLY the lesson, or reduce entropy with pick-ups, or maybe make a rank below this called "tutorial" or so (the fat ones are quite extreme cases):

1 04, 1 05, 1 08, 1 10, 1 11, 1 15 (more to that later :devil:), 1 17, 1 19, 1 20, 1 21, 1 22, 1 26, 1 28, 1 35
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
, 1 38

Even if I acted a bit like a dummy in some of these, the fact that I easily did so proves that way less experienced players will most likely have much bigger problems.


Again these are not bad levels, in fact most of them are excellent! :thumbsup: But they are put together with actual tutorial levels (difficulty wise), where you just assign a handful of clear skills or just need to turn the RR up. They need to have lower entropy to be actual tutorials, be it with pick-ups, culling of non-tutorial elements, or a new rank.

1 15: This level should be burned or made fair! :devil:  Dissapearing lemmings because of invisible traps is just *insert mean word here*. It's also quite hard for the position.


For groupie 40:
Took me ~60 mins and a few tries to adapt some parts and reduce builder usage. The main difficulty here is the sheer size and needing to scoll slowly across the landscap a ton as even max zoom-out doesn't help. Nepster's Final Frustraition achived a way higher diffuculty with a much smaller size, less multitasking and less imidiate danger I must admit.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 10724
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2019, 05:58:56 pm »
Quote
cattrap:cattrap    3 17, 3 21, 5 26, 6 09, 6 33, 8 01, 8 07       

Include this in the download (maybe even in strato_standardmd) + submit to the standard library

This would also need the name fixed first (no author prefix in the style name).

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4015
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2019, 08:47:55 pm »
Tileset missing completely:

gronkling_angelisland:block_08    2 33

gronkling_chaosangel:block_23   5 05

I remember these 2 being removed by gronkling's request. So I would swap the tiles out for other ones.

The tilesets were renamed to sonic_angelisland and sonic_chaosangel. The blocks in question still exist.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 08:51:26 pm »
Tileset missing completely:

gronkling_angelisland:block_08    2 33

gronkling_chaosangel:block_23   5 05

I remember these 2 being removed by gronkling's request. So I would swap the tiles out for other ones.

The tilesets were renamed to sonic_angelisland and sonic_chaosangel. The blocks in question still exist.

Thanks, Proxima! Then Strato you only would need to change the tileset name to these by editing the respective level text files.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 11:14:55 pm »
First of all, thanks a lot for the detailed feedback, IchoTolot! :thumbsup:

Regarding the missing graphic sets: I converted many of these after they had been abandoned by their original creators, and uploaded them to the respective threads. I could link to them, but then one would have to scroll through the posts to find them, which is why I believe it's quicker if I re-attach them here (in the starting post). I've added nin10doadict's name to the cattrap and fixed all the levels referring to it, so that they now refer to the new name.

You're right, though, I also should have sent them to Nessy for standard inclusion in the next download! ;) (EDIT: Done now.) The bright Tree tileset is the interim version of GigaLem's modified tree tileset. I had already built a bunch of levels with it when he released the final version, and thus, I kept using both in conjunction.

Quote
The tilesets were renamed to sonic_angelisland and sonic_chaosangel. The blocks in question still exist.

I know, I had already replaced them in most of the levels featuring those tilesets. As I feared, apparently some escaped me - glad it was only two! :D
Quote
plom:psychmd:alt5     2 24, 5 06
plom:psychmd:alt7     1 39, 3 23

This is a similar issue: These pieces still exist, but the naming scheme was changed slightly: Rather than alt1 through alt10, they are now named as alt_01 through alt_10. I had both in my plom_psychmd folder (i.e. alt1 and alt_01, and this for each of those ten pieces). Hence, this error didn't even pop up for me - there was no way for me to notice this on my PC, at least not just by playing the pack. I have now deleted the redundant pieces alt1 through alt10 from my plom_psychmd folder, and with the affected levels edited, they still display properly, so no tiles should have gone missing this way.

I think the reason for these graphic-set naming issues is that some of these remained unconverted for the longest time - then I converted them myself. This was the case for several of Gronkling's Sonic-based tilesets, as well as for several of the Lemmings-Plus mods by GigaLem and plom.

At some point, somebody else in the background also converted these tilesets, changing the names of certain pieces in the process, or splitting up tilesets, in the case of sonic_angelisland / sonic_chaosangel as well as sonic_cybertrack / sonic_technobase. Now, suddenly, it was hard for me to tell which were my own conversions, and which levels referred to these, and which were the official ones.

I uploaded all the conversions I had done to the appropriate threads - but I probably should have sent them to Nessy instead. ;) Whoever "also" converted these must have sent them straight to their official destination.

As you can tell from the fact that most of the levels featuring the former "Ancient" tileset didn't give you errors, I had indeed become aware of this change, and had already replaced the relevant references to the best of my memory.

Thanks a lot, IchoTolot, for taking the time to create the overview of the remaining missing ones! :thumbsup:

I have attached the updated version of the pack to the starting post. This only includes mechanical fixes so far, to make sure all levels can be played. Game-wise fixing (backroutes etc.) I'll address in a second step! ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 11:29:33 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2019, 12:21:50 am »
Here is a second post to respond to IchoTolot's comments on level design and difficulty. Your specific solutions to the individual levels from the Noisemaker rank (and Groupie 40) I'll address in a third post, once I've had time to watch them all ;) .

Generally speaking, the Noisemaker rank is not a standalone tutorial rank. I know you and I both have the ambition of our packs being able to stand on their own without requiring prior knowledge. However, I think we can both agree that any complete newbie, first-time Lemmings player will get crushed at latest at the beginning of rank two, no matter whether they try Lemmings Reunion, Lemmings United :evil: , or Lemmings World Tour.

Instead, Noisemaker is a tutorial rank for the intermediate player, which is why it doesn't teach the individual skills, or easy skill combinations, but instead starts diving into more complicated and obscure skill tricks early on. The pre-level texts explain them to aleviate the difficulty - they instruct the player to actively try these obscure tricks once, so that they can start actively looking for opportunities to execute these tricks on later levels (=without prior announcement, then).

However, with the abundance of features and skills NeoLemmix has, some easy things might require a reminder. In case of the "just turn up the release rate"-level, it's analogous to the one you did for the new Introduction pack: Technically, both are the easiest levels in their respective packs, but yet, they're not in the very first position. That's because release-rate-fiddling in general is more complicated than performing 2-4 easy skills in rather straightforward ways, so we want to introduce this concept as a whole a little later.

The difficulty of any individual level in this rank therefore largely depends on whether a given player knows this specific trick already or not.


Some tricks are more obscure than others, of course, and Noisemaker 08 ("Glide and Joy") indeed seems quite challenging for its position. I'd first resort to making the pre-level text a little more specific though, rather than moving levels around?

So far, some pre-level texts outright tell you about the trick, whereas others just allude to it, requiring the player to put 2 and 2 together. The latter also applies to Noisemaker 38 ("Rock, Paper, Scissors"), where the pre-level text just gives the hint about the shoulder height of Stoners being 6 pixels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
1 15: This level should be burned or made fair! :devil:  Dissapearing lemmings because of invisible traps is just *insert mean word here*. It's also quite hard for the position.

For everyone else: This is the "infamous, lemming-eating Octopus" I talked about in the starting post. :P

I've already apologised for it on both Arty's and Flopsy's Let's Play videos :D , but I don't see a way of fixing this level. One aesthetic feature - the underwater updraft - collides with another one here - devouring animals requiring hidden traps - and with the trigger areas overlapping, the result is "Dark fate of Atlantis" (Paralems, Demented 28) on steroids. Outright removing a Beatles classic from the pack doesn't seem justified either. At least by the time the player gets to the rerun, they already know about the octopus being hungry.

The upside of all the "unfair" elements being gathered in a single level is that they're also restricted to that specific one. So I guess it's just the go-to troll level of this pack, much like "Trust No 1" from Paralems. At the same time, it's also about as artistically iconic as the beloved "Death Titan" from Paralems.
Quote
For groupie 40:
Took me ~60 mins and a few tries to adapt some parts and reduce builder usage. The main difficulty here is the sheer size and needing to scoll slowly across the landscap a ton as even max zoom-out doesn't help. Nepster's Final Frustraition achived a way higher diffuculty with a much smaller size, less multitasking and less imidiate danger I must admit.

Absolutely! ;) As I said in the Groupie rank level list spoiler, this is merely my attempt at creating a Final-Frustration-like level. Final Frustration itself forces the player more elegantly to "waste" skills, especially the destructive ones, through a sequence of close-together structures, a bunch of tiny walls, each of which eats up a basher, miner, or digger. It also makes more use of the vertical dimension (without actually requiring vertical scrolling), and most of the crowds are contained from the beginning. The Grand Puzzle is not only much wider, but also several crowds walk to their death from the start, so they either need to be contained, or some serious multitasking is in order.

I will definitely try to create a level in a similar vein again (i.e. 10 or 20 of everything) in a much more condensed manner! ;)

As long as it ran smoothly on your PC (no lagging due to level size or similar), and took a pro player like you 60 minutes to figure out, for the time being I consider it a worthy closing to such a gargantuan pack. I guess that also goes to show that the final level should be attempted in a separate playing session all by itself :D . It's not something one can casually solve after having completed the penultimate level.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2019, 03:41:58 pm »
For the errors:

I still get 1 error: cattrap:catrap is missing on 6 09.

Also you seem to have forgotten to attach strato_generalmd now. I can't find it even looking into the zips.

For noisemaker:

I would still propose to flatten the quite harsh difficulty spikes a bit, as the difficulty itself can be quite over the place. Try to directly point at things in the text and not just vaguely hint at them. Turn some skills into pick-ups near intended positions as that lowers entropy by quite a bit. Even if it's not a tutorial, currently the difficulty is quite unexpectable.

Will continue playing soon. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2019, 09:51:18 pm »
Quote
I still get 1 error: cattrap:catrap is missing on 6 09.

Thanks for pointing this out! Indeed you mentioned it the first time already, but I must have overlooked it. :sorry: Seems like I only fixed "The lion sleeps tonight", but not "The eye of the tiger". Done now! ;)

Quote
Also you seem to have forgotten to attach strato_generalmd now. I can't find it even looking into the zips.

Oops, I must have accidentally unchecked that one as well when unchecking the box for the previous version of the pack. :-[ This time, I double-checked, thank you very much! ;)

Finally, I have to revisit this point:
Quote
1 15: This level should be burned or made fair! :devil:  Dissapearing lemmings because of invisible traps is just *insert mean word here*. It's also quite hard for the position.

I looked into the levels again, and indeed, the lemmings just disappeared without a trace, rather than actually being visible as they're getting killed by the traps. That of course destroys the entire visual appeal! ;) I had to re-position the updraft object so that it is in the background, but all the trap animations can still be seen. Specifically, the very first trap is a clam from the Beach tileset, and actually supposed to be completely visible - just like the crocodile trap on the left! ;)

So this was likely just a misunderstanding between Old and New Formats, as far as the correct order of objects is concerned. What I've never understood, both in Old and New Formats, is that the "to front" / "to back" feature works the other way round for objects as it does for terrain. Meaning: If you want an object in the very background (in this case: the updraft), you actually have to click "to front".

The fix has also been applied to the rerun, "Rolling in the deep". While some traps are indeed hidden behind the octopus, at least now they're all visible once they get activated! :evil:

So even this level is not supposed to be quite as troll-ish as it accidentally ended up in its first New-Formats iteration. Take a look at it again, now it works as it was supposed to in Old Formats! ;)

From a game-mechanics perspective, of course three of these five traps in total still count as hidden. From a flavour perspective, anyone who has played any of my previous packs knows all animals in my lemmings levels are hungry for meat... :evil:


On a happier note, though, regarding your solutions: It's so nice to finally be able to watch an entire rank worth of levels, played by an experienced player such as you, and not to see any backroutes! :thumbsup: Especially on harder levels which got backrouted by both Colorful Arty and Flopsy - specifically, "Glide and joy" (Noisemaker 08) and "Lemming, I hardly knew ya!" (Noisemaker 19).

Of course, I could get nit-picky here and there, but on all levels where you went with slightly alternative solutions, you still used the main idea each of these levels is supposed to teach. Also, given that even you already mentioned the difficulty of these Noisemaker levels, I see no necessity to tighten the skill limit even further - or doing so by enforcing the usage of every single skill provided. As long as the main idea has to be used, the player should definitely have some leeway on the first rank.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...and here are some for outside the spoiler:

Noisemaker 40, "Absolute beginners": This reminded me that not all of the talismans from Old Formats have been translated properly. Or, more specifically: On those levels which I manually reconverted by opening them in the editor, the talismans created from converting the entire pack got lost. In case of this level, I had to add a solid ceiling, which I always did in Old Formats, so that players of the Old-Formats version could no longer get confused about whether the ceiling was solid or deadly. Then, I reopened the level in the new editor, but of course, this doesn't copy talisman information, which was a property of the entire pack in Old Formats, rather than the individual level. This is supposed to have a talisman for only using destructive skills plus climbers. Of course, due to the individual-level conversion, it also lost the pre-level text telling the player about that.

Noisemaker 26, "Don't stop me now" also has a talisman for saving everyone - which you did. So simply run this replay again once the talisman is back! ;)

So I'll have to take a closer look again at which talismans were lost due to my individual-level conversion. I'll try to have all talismans back in the next update of the New-Formats version! :)

Just a question: Did you skip the first three levels? I didn't see any replays for those. 39 was missing because of the missing pieces from plom_psychmd, I know - these have been fixed now.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 10:09:36 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 10724
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 10:12:23 pm »
Quote
What I've never understood, both in Old and New Formats, is that the "to front" / "to back" feature works the other way round for objects as it does for terrain. Meaning: If you want an object in the very background (in this case: the updraft), you actually have to click "to front".

The issue here is perhaps that "back" and "front" aren't the best terms, and instead, "start" / "end" (of the piece list) would be more accurate. Pieces are drawn starting with the first piece in the list, then the 2nd, and so on. An "eraser" piece thus erases what's been drawn up to that point (but not anything drawn after it), and a "no overwrite" piece will be drawn behind (instead of in front of) all existing pieces - however, crucially, this doesn't change when the piece is drawn, just how it's drawn. Thus, a No Overwrite piece at the end of the list, will be drawn behind everything else (because the only thing that could get drawn behind that is another No Overwrite piece even later in the list).

Now, combine that with that objects generally have "No Overwrite" selected by default, and you see why these buttons seem to work backwards for objects - but they're actually doing exactly what they're meant to do, they just have a poor choice of name. And that's probably something that we should discuss fixing.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2019, 12:25:58 pm »
Quote
Just a question: Did you skip the first three levels? I didn't see any replays for those. 39 was missing because of the missing pieces from plom_psychmd, I know - these have been fixed now.

Checked my zip again and it has Noisemaker 1-3. Maybe you overlooked them ???

Regarding groupie 40: I think a 100% solution is possible, but let's say I don't want to scroll for ages to search deeper for that. ;)   In a more compact level of this type I would consider trying to find one.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2019, 04:57:09 pm »
Got noisemaker 39 here. :)

I thing about this level:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, the one cat level loads now! :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2019, 09:03:14 pm »
Thanks, I also found and checked your replays for Noisemaker 1 through 3. Still everything as intended! :thumbsup:

Yeah, I know the fountain part of "Vegas Lights" is somewhat repetitive - that's why I mentioned it in the starting post. With just two fire traps, it wouldn't really look like a fountain anymore. Again, similarly to the octopus, this was an aesthetical choice, not a mechanical one.

This will be one of the main differences in Lemmings Open Air ;) , which has far fewer aesthetic ambitions and focuses more on a fair, mechanical challenge - similarly to Pit Lems, but with higher difficulty, and still connected by the music theme, as Lemmings World Tour.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 10:27:16 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2019, 10:14:38 pm »
Here is the next bunch. 20 more replays from rank 2.:)

More specific comments after I had time to finish the rank.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2019, 09:33:18 pm »
Thanks for the replays, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: The majority is still as intended. Though this is probably going to change, at the latest once you get past the point up to which Colorful Arty has played so far, which is the end of the Diva rank.

There seems to be something broken with the pickup skills from the GigaLem Tree-Mod tileset: Bomber pickup skills get incorrectly displayed as Stoner pickups, Cloner pickup skills are depicted as empty pickup skills (i.e. ones that have already been collected). Consequently, the Cloners cannot be collected, and thus, your replay of Amateur 13, "Ayo Technology" (as well as mine), fails.

This definitely wasn't the case when I tested the New-Formats version of this level. This replay in particular was just recently created, because "Ayo Technology" is a radiation level in the original version of the pack.

Maybe this has something to do with the removal of support for custom pickup skills? ;) Then again, I still have the stable 12.6.5 version, so this shouldn't be a problem, but for some reason, it is... maybe the official styles download got changed in this regard?

Apart from that, on your single solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's also a curious coincidence that you stopped at Amateur 20 for the time being, because Amateur 21 is the only level in the pack featuring an anti-splat pad. This is going to get re-introduced with the 12.7 update as well - during initial conversion, I had to replace the anti-splat pad with an updraft, but this breaks the solution.

As far as I know, conversion from Old-Formats levels to version 12.7 is still going to be possible? i.e. anti-splat pads are now going to be recognised again when opening an old level? That would make it easier to just re-convert the level, rather than manually setting everything back to the way it was - because I think I had to slightly adapt the skillset in order for the level to work in some way with the currently-installed updraft.

I also noticed I still have to re-add my Medieval background to Amateur 19, "Holding out for a hero".

EDIT: Background added. I also just made a quick little emergency fix to "The lion sleeps tonight" (Professional 21). It was one of the weakest levels in the pack so far, which I was just tired of. Now that the release rate has been maxed out and another cat trap added, it should be at least slightly more difficult. The fix is of course also coming to the Old-Formats version!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 11:43:47 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2019, 12:11:50 am »
Quote
It's also a curious coincidence that you stopped at Amateur 20 for the time being, because Amateur 21 is the only level in the pack featuring an anti-splat pad. This is going to get re-introduced with the 12.7 update as well - during initial conversion, I had to replace the anti-splat pad with an updraft, but this breaks the solution.

Don't bother yourself reading too much into that. The case was: Hmmm, it's late, but I wanted to continue playing the pack today. Hmm, let's play half a rank.....;P

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2019, 02:08:29 pm »
Had a quick look after redownloading everything fresh now.

Some levels are not loading:

arty_underwater:invisible_updraft

1 15, 4 24

gigalem_treemd:o4

2 02, 2 08, 2 10, 4 08

gigalem_treemd:pickupleaf

2 13

These were the ones not loading in for me. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2019, 07:43:39 pm »
Thanks for reporting, but I don't get any of these errors. Are you already using the new version 12.7? ;) This one is still for 12.6.5.

I've noticed you posted a separate notification into the topic of every pack you're maintaining once you had cleansed the levels. Since I haven't done that yet, you can assume that LWT isn't updated for 12.7 yet.

Hopefully this doesn't involve a whole bunch of renamed pieces again... feels like I've just updated this pack to New Formats, and now, there's an even newer New Formats. I hope this will not be the case with every odd-number version (i.e. 12.9 being the next one) that gets released... :evil:

Currently, version 12.7 gives me the message that it cannot cleanse certain levels and will simply skip them - and among those are precisely those you listed.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 07:57:37 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2019, 08:09:32 pm »
Quote
Thanks for reporting, but I don't get any of these errors. Are you already using the new version 12.7? ;) This one is still for 12.6.5.

Well, then disregard. ;)

I was using 12.7.

Most packs should not be affected on the playability side anyway with the new version. Only if they included some of the custom pick-ups problems could arise.

Quote
Hopefully this doesn't involve a whole bunch of renamed pieces again... feels like I've just updated this pack to New Formats, and now, there's an even newer New Formats. I hope this will not be the case with every odd-number version (i.e. 12.9 being the next one) that gets released...

The only thing that was failing in all my stuff was a custom pick-up skill object, that I replaced and in namida_circuit that duplicate not being automatically replaced. So as the standard library goes you should not have many problems.

It's only your extra stuff (especially that treebright tileset) that maybe could cause a problem. But I bet most of that would also be pick-up related and for that I would simply suggest "go with the default one" for now.

Also cleansing is not nessesary for getting it to work. It's more future related.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2019, 08:53:22 pm »
The problem is that I cannot even open these levels in the new editor to replace these pickups with default ones. I'd have to do that either in the 12.6.5 editor, or even further back in Old Formats, because the old editor still had the "replace object with another one from a different tileset" feature that kept the piece in exactly the same position.

In case of the failing underwater levels, however, I have no idea what this is about. As I had feared and just anounced in the post above, some objects have been renamed in that tileset, and even though I've replaced all text instances with the new names, the player still cannot cleanse these levels, and thus, the editor can't open them either.

Quote
It's only your extra stuff (especially that treebright tileset) that maybe could cause a problem.

I thought so, too, but actually, it doesn't cause more or fewer problems than the (not yet officially-included) Dex Halloween tileset, or than any other graphic set - as long as no custom pickups are involved, as you suspected. 8-)

In contrast, other graphic sets that are part of the official download, but still included custom pickup skills (like Plom's modification of the Psychedelic tileset) are a much bigger problem, because of course, those custom pickups aren't there either.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2019, 09:22:02 pm »
Quote
The problem is that I cannot even open these levels in the new editor to replace these pickups with default ones. I'd have to do that either in the 12.6.5 editor, or even further back in Old Formats, because the old editor still had the "replace object with another one from a different tileset" feature that kept the piece in exactly the same position.

In case of the failing underwater levels, however, I have no idea what this is about. As I had feared and just anounced in the post above, some objects have been renamed in that tileset, and even though I've replaced all text instances with the new names, the player still cannot cleanse these levels, and thus, the editor can't open them either.

This should solve your problem:

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.msg78051#msg78051

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.msg78052#msg78052

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2019, 10:42:48 pm »
Nope, it doesn't - I've responded in the above-linked thread, so I think we can stop cross-posting ;) .

Basically, two objects - one background and one updraft object - have been removed from the arty_underwater tileset in the official styles download coming with version 12.7, while they were still present in the latest version of the styles folder I downloaded for 12.6.5.

Maybe someone just forgot to add them to the 12.7 styles download. Anyways, they've always been there, from Old Formats to well within the time period of New Formats, so I don't see a reason why they should be intentionally culled right now.

In the meantime, these levels should work fine for anyone continuing to play in version 12.6.5.

For 12.7, namida has implemented a code that replaces any instance of the gigalem_treemdbright tileset with the matching piece from gigalem_treemd. However, this breaks the respective levels, because the exit gets flushed down into the ground, since the exit objects are actually not identical between these two tilesets. The change also only applies to the new NeoLemmix player; the editor still displays the levels as gigalem_treemdbright, and only once you hit playtest, it turns to gigalem_treemd on the preview screen (and within the level itself, of course)...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 12:00:22 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2019, 12:00:10 am »
...therefore, the update I just uploaded (for version 12.7.0!) sets all instances of gigalem_treemdbright to regular gigalem_treemd. Since the player doesn't let anyone use the bright tileset anyway without custom editing of the alias file, I decided I could just as easily do this replacement myself; in fact, I had to, in order to make the exits work in the first place.

(Alternatively I would have had to spend my time merging the animation of the exit top with that of the bottom for the gigalem_treemdbright tileset as well, just to have the default programming of NeoLemmix 12.7 replace it with the regular Tree Mod exit anyway.)

The arty_underwater levels have been fixed.

The anti-splat pad on Amateur 21 has also been reintroduced. That's why I'm already uploading this now, just as a "hot fix", so that IchoTolot can not only continue playing in NeoLemmix 12.7., but also at just the right spot with this particular level featuring its intended solution again! ;)

Consequently, the missing talismans will then be added in the next, i.e. "proper" update.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 10:09:39 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Turrican

  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2019, 01:29:39 pm »
Hi Strato! After seeing the description for the groupie level for Clam, I decided to put here some thoughts about the author, and more importantly to put here a small piece of the lemmingsforums history , back in the beginning of the decade. Personally I joined the forum in 2013. There were several authors whose packs made me solving custom packs , but Clam was the main one and he is still my favourite level designer. This post is not a critique for the groupie level . Unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to try the pack , very probably I will try it next month. This post is just an opportunity to put here some small pieces of the history of the forum.

Clam's main characteristic is that he liked small levels. I remember him saying that he liked to see what you can fit in one screen in terms of level size. Now for the exact quote I need to dig older threads but that's I remember him saying (another older user can correct me if I am wrong here). In any case he seemed fan of the idea that "less is more".

EDIT: This post originally was very large. I mentioned several things and small stories about challenge solutions, the challenge board, how it had influenced Clam , and the cstame packs. But it was way off topic for your thread , so I posted it instead in a new thread in the main lemmings board. Please don't forget to visit it , I am really looking forward for your opinion.

link for the new thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4514.0
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 03:02:33 pm by Turrican »
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2019, 09:36:05 pm »
Hi Turrican! Thanks for your detailed explanation on Clam's level building style! ;) If I ever create levels in the style of other content creators again, I'll surely come back to them! I've already designed some of the levels from the Groupie rank based more on explicit instructions than on my own observation (for example, Proxima told me his level building style pretty explicitly - thus, it was also easy for him to recognise when I put it into practice :D ).

There are a couple users for which I might have enough information about their level-building style to create yet another few levels in their fashion, plus also some further quotes or phrases they commonly use I could "poke fun at". :P

For Clam in particular, however, I sadly didn't make it very far into Clammings before getting stomped. Therefore, I acknowledge that my levels might not have encapsulated his typical style of making small levels - I only observed a frequent use of the Beach tileset and more vertical scrolling than any other pack (although I think Ski Sloping Lemmings by grams88 has taken the cake on that by now ;) ).

I had similar issues with creating the namida level, because I usually only got past the initial X-of-everything levels of any Lemmings Plus pack before the first real puzzles hit me out of nowhere. In his case, apparently I got pretty close merely by observation, rather than by own level execution. But then again, using one of namida's custom tilesets certainly helped to make it feel more authentic to him.

Anyways, I'm glad some people are actually taking the time to read the descriptions I've listed for the Groupie rank! :thumbsup:

In case anyone is interested, I also listed all the intended tricks that the Noisemaker and Amateur ranks are supposed to teach in their respective sections (both in the Old- and New-Formats thread).


Just to be on the safe side in case any of this level still can't enforce its intended trick with absolute certainty. Although I'm feeling pretty confident about them as of now, because so far, the replays I've received by IchoTolot (up to Amateur 20) were all pretty much intended solutions.


PS: Thanks for making me aware of this particular level again. ;) I have just recently created a level for Lemmings Open Air (currently in development) called "Rama Lema Ding Dong", no longer aware that I had already used that song title as a reference here in Lemmings World Tour, with just a slight variation. :-[ So I should probably go ahead and change the title for the Lemmings Open Air level. Because a double-pun ("Clam-a-Lem-a-Ding-Dong") is always better than just a single pun! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2019, 03:48:12 pm »
Finished Amateur. :)

Good levels in there. The difficulty is still a bit variable but not as much as before (For example: 2 15 too hard, 2 23 is a bit hard for the position, 2 31 waaaay too easy, 2 34 a bit too easy).

2 13 and 2 26 I would say is are prime examples that the pack is more enjoyable now if my guess is right that before there was radiation/slowfreeze in there. No way I would have enjoyed/wanted to play that with radiation/slowfreeze. :P

I should have tracked a few serious backroutes this time, but I await your call there. :devil:

My favorite level was 2 10! :thumbsup:   I also really enjoyed 2 32 and 2 35. :)

Level I did not really enjoy: 2 08 (I did expect the dogs but not the chocolate, also I would say it's too hard for the position), 2 40 (no way to find the exit without true physics mode here, also it's quite easy for the position)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2019, 05:23:26 pm »
Thanks a lot for both playing and your feedback, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: I'll respond to them one by one, and then address the replays in a spoiler.

Quote
2 15 too hard

Really? I think this is the first time I hear that. Maybe it's because of the direct succession after 2 14 ("Meet me halfway"), which was extremely difficult for Arty, so that 2 15 ("Ring, Ring!") seemed very easy in comparison. You can also lose comparatively many lemmings on this one, and usually people have some skills remaining at the end.

Quote
2 23 is a bit hard for the position

On this one ("Fields of gold") you had even more skills remaining, so just from watching the replay, it seemed like this particular one was even easier for you. Are you maybe referring to the level above or below? ???

I've mentioned them by name again, just to be able to clarify.

Quote
2 31 waaaay too easy

This one is obviously a joke level. ;) There is a talisman for saving everyone, though, which I'm going to re-add with the next update. Since you did save everyone, simply re-run your replay over that level (mass-replay check should also work to get all the talismans you've already collected without knowing).

Basically, the purpose of this level is showing how pointless I find 10-of-everything levels on lower ranks in general, because the skill supply is so generous that the player doesn't have anything to lose. And to stress that, I thought "Why not go all the way and make the save requirement zero?" :D

Quote
2 13 and 2 26 I would say is are prime examples that the pack is more enjoyable now if my guess is right that before there was radiation/slowfreeze in there. No way I would have enjoyed/wanted to play that with radiation/slowfreeze.

Indeed, 2 13 was a radiation level, so were 2 25 and 2 39, and 2 26 was a slowfreeze level. I've adapted the pre-level texts so that the player can usually tell.

On 2 13, you took some sort of a shortcut, but I don't really have to enforce any "intended" solutions on these levels where the object required for the actual intended solution is no longer present in the first place. ;)

On 2 25 and 2 26, however, you actually exactly replicated the intended solution to the best it can be done with the pickup skills in place of radiation and slowfreeze. :thumbsup:

Quote
My favorite level was 2 10!

That's nice to hear! :D Especially since that level is right on the borderline between puzzle- and execution difficulty. Even with the replay-write feature, as Arty showcased in his LP, it's still not as easy as it looks at first.

Quote
I also really enjoyed 2 32 and 2 35.

I'll address those in the spoiler. ;)
Quote
2 08 (I did expect the dogs but not the chocolate, also I would say it's too hard for the position)

Interesting, because Arty actually found it too easy for its position. He was only fine with it being as high as level 08 of the second rank because of the music ("Who let the dogs out?" goes with "How much is that doggie in the window?", obviously).

Regarding the trap: Take a good look at its position again and I doubt you'd want to refer to that as chocolate... :evil:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
2 40 (no way to find the exit without true physics mode here, also it's quite easy for the position)

Fair enough, I think this problem can occur anytime someone encounters a new graphic set for the first time. Even with familiar graphic sets, such as L2 Space, Nepster still mistook the airlock trap as the exit first when playing one of my Paralems levels. :D

Since this is not purposefully hidden information, I'm happy to spell it out for everyone: The acoustic guitar in my instruments tileset is always the exit. As such, it is an object and never solid.

On your single replays (click to show/hide)

In sum, most of your solutions were slight improvements over the intended ones. That's usually what gets turned into talismans, and as I said, some of these solutions actually are talisman solutions - they just haven't been re-added yet. ;)

On every level where you saved a considerable amount of skills, this actually happened via an observably higher level of knowledge than required by the player at this point - and I don't want to punish experienced players for their knowledge, or disable valid alternative approaches where they are appropriate, such as timing-based solutions when dealing with Zombies.

As such, there are no immediate backroute fixes required yet.
But I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time...

Good luck on the Professional rank! :thumbsup: Don't be confused if some levels are even slightly easier than those at the end of Amateur... this would be in line with the feedback I received from Arty, and doesn't necessarily mean those solutions are backroutes.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2019, 10:56:15 pm »
Quote
    2 23 is a bit hard for the position


On this one ("Fields of gold") you had even more skills remaining, so just from watching the replay, it seemed like this particular one was even easier for you. Are you maybe referring to the level above or below? ???

I've mentioned them by name again, just to be able to clarify.

No, it's exactly this one. I had a few skills left over, but it still took me the longest from rank 2.

Quote
Regarding the trap: Take a good look at its position again and I doubt you'd want to refer to that as chocolate...

I knew what it shall represent. ;) 

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2019, 04:00:27 pm »
Had a bit of time today, so I added the first 10 levels of the Professional rank to the replay collection. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2019, 09:14:10 am »
Thanks for the replays, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: You've found two backroutes; a major one on "Holy diver" (Professional 07), and a minor one on "Blocking all over the world" (Professional 08). The latter was originally part of Pit Lems, so that pack will also be affected. It has already had several backroute fixes, so I thought it would be proof by now... but apparently not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've already fixed the levels, but I haven't updated the pack yet; as announced before, I want to do that together with re-adding all the talismans. Hopefully I can get that done this week.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2019, 04:56:40 pm »
10 more levels solved today. Attached my replays. :)

This batch seemed easier than quite a bit of the rank 2 stuff to be honest.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2019, 10:49:23 pm »
Thanks for playing, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: This will give me the opportunity to fix even more stuff in one swoop in the next update.

It seems like a couple of levels in the Professional rank had the Millas sprites without me intending them to have them. For "Auld Lem Syne", they were quite fitting, given that they also have red hair! ;) But I'm going to reset them to the default sprites, now that I know.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm trying to upload the next fix as soon as possible; Lemmings Open Air took precedent during the last couple of days, because with that pack still being in development, any backroutes people find there are usually much more glaring, and therefore in more urgent need of fixing. ;)

Quote
This batch seemed easier than quite a bit of the rank 2 stuff to be honest.

Yes, this is consistent with the feedback I've received from Colorful Arty and others. The main reason is that there are more open-ended levels here, especially the landscape-y ones. The few specific puzzles with a tight skill restriction, such as "Atte katte nuva", seem to enforce their solution pretty reliably, though. ;)

Also, the tricks taught on the first two ranks are supposed to prepare you for the entire pack. The third rank then requires some of these tricks without prior announcement... (like the one you used on "Block around the clock") - but of course not all of them, right out of the gate. ;)

As such, the sum of the difficulty in the Amateur rank definitely exceeds that of the Professional rank, because there's simply more to learn on Amateur, whereas Professional is the first rank where you're actually "free to play (all by yourself". :)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2019, 09:52:22 pm »
And as my preemptive christmas gift, here is the rest of the rank. ;P

Quote
As such, the sum of the difficulty in the Amateur rank definitely exceeds that of the Professional rank, because there's simply more to learn on Amateur, whereas Professional is the first rank where you're actually "free to play (all by yourself".

Well, if the tutorial is harder than the levels that rely on the lessons learned after that, then those levels fail as tutorials. :8():

The ammount to learn should not matter for the rank if the lessons are easy enough. Some of the lessons are (even with the pretext) simply too hard to count as tutorials.

They are good levels, don't get me wrong, but fail as tutorials.


After the last bit of Professional was quite a cakewalk, levels like 3 26, 3 27 take the difficulty up by several ranks, while 3 40 is very easy again. So even with liking a lot of the levels here I must say the packs difficulty curve can be best described with this:



Maybe the next level is easy or hard the rank is not really a reliable hint at this here. ;P

For the level types:

I must say I like the non-landscape levels a lot more than the landscapes as often the puzzle falls a bit shorter there (that london bridge for example is waaaay too long than it has any right to be :evil:).
Often the style overshadows the solution and takes away from it and I play lemmings for the puzzles first and the style comes second. For me the style should add to the solution and try to not take away from it.

Again I like quite a lot of the solutions, but those landscape levels are currently the weak link here.

In terms of song references, I get about 50% of them. :P

Also those flagpoles..... I assumed them as solid first, then discovered they are non-solid and then found one in a level that was solid! :evil:   That pole should get an animation of some sort to make it clearer as an object or maybe move the flagpoles out of the active playing zone where they don't disrupt anything.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2019, 09:46:54 am »
Thanks, IchoTolot! :) I'll have a look at them this weekend, and then I'm simply going to fix the entire rank, along with the talismans.

Quote
Well, if the tutorial is harder than the levels that rely on the lessons learned after that, then those levels fail as tutorials. :8():

The ammount to learn should not matter for the rank if the lessons are easy enough. Some of the lessons are (even with the pretext) simply too hard to count as tutorials.

They are good levels, don't get me wrong, but fail as tutorials.

I think the problem is more rooted within the fact that, once a level gets more complicated, specific tricks that are part of the intended solution become more and more difficult to enforce. ;) For example, "Block around the clock" from the Professional rank is conceptually much more difficult than the levels that teach the tricks you're required to know for this level (namely, "Lemmy I hardly knew ya" and "Wonderwall"). However, due to the fact that all these elements are combined in a single level, more degrees of freedom are added to the solution, so that there is no longer jus one specific sequence of actions that works. I've already tried to enforce the intended solution on this level through the use of pickup skills, as well as toying around with on-terrain fire traps that ended up getting removed again, because they weren't fulfilling their purpose.

Quote
After the last bit of Professional was quite a cakewalk, levels like 3 26, 3 27 take the difficulty up by several ranks, while 3 40 is very easy again. So even with liking a lot of the levels here I must say the packs difficulty curve can be best described with this

Interesting to hear! Neither "Budapest" nor "Moskau, Moskau" looked particularly difficult to me when I watched Arty play them. :)

Quote
I must say I like the non-landscape levels a lot more than the landscapes as often the puzzle falls a bit shorter there (that london bridge for example is waaaay too long than it has any right to be :evil:).
Often the style overshadows the solution and takes away from it and I play lemmings for the puzzles first and the style comes second. For me the style should add to the solution and try to not take away from it.

This is the reason I'm creating Lemmings Open Air! ;) It will be pretty much only abstract level shapes, which are free to be shaped based entirely on the solution, i.e. "top-down" (starting with the solution, then creating the terrain around it).

Lemmings World Tour, in contrast, was designed "bottom-up", for the most part - i.e. starting with the terrain, then coming up with a solution that fits. Regarding the landscape levels as a group, I think I can at least say that each of the solutions for them is rather unique; there is not much repetition of tricks or similar going on between the various landscape levels. But they usually have a little more leeway than smaller, abstract levels where the skills are exactly accounted for.

Quote
In terms of song references, I get about 50% of them.

That's quite a good share! ;) It's set up in a way that everyone should be able to get some of the references; nobody will get all or even just the majority of them.

You might start recognising more and more titles the higher you get, though, because the higher levels are based on more and more famous songs. On the lower ranks, meanwhile, I snuck in the occasional obscure reference that probably just I will understand, given the small size of our community. I was actually surprised anyone got the reference "Na zdorovje Lem" from Pit Lems (someone in the comments section of nin10doadict's LP). But that level is also included in LWT as part of the Encore rank.

Quote
Also those flagpoles..... I assumed them as solid first, then discovered they are non-solid and then found one in a level that was solid! :evil:   That pole should get an animation of some sort to make it clearer as an object or maybe move the flagpoles out of the active playing zone where they don't disrupt anything.

The default one used is the L2 Circus flagpole (the white one), which is always an object. As such, whenever something else is used to hoist the flag, it's always solid, and usually so for a reason. ;) Hence, in those cases, the flagpoles can't actually be moved out of the playing area, because they are part of the solution.

I agree that a secondary animation for L2 Circus flagpole would be helpful in general, but I don't see how that's possible with the pole itself? The checkered flags from L2 Circus that are supposed to be attached to them are of course moving.

Thus, a part of me fears namida will at some point just merge the flag and the pole into one object, thereby breaking the flag animation on any LWT level that uses the L2 pole. :(

But fortunately for me, I think this is not possible - because the flag pole by itself must continue to exist in order to vary the length of the L2 Circus flags, as well. Simply using the "height" parameter for objects, like for water areas, won't work, because in that case, the entire object would just repeat itself, thereby putting a second waving flag under the first one.

My suggestion for a secondary animation for the L2 flag pole would therefore be a shimmer / reflection of some sort? This could go up or down the flag pole, making it look as if it were reflecting the sunlight.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2019, 01:27:55 pm »
The updated version is attached to the starting post. The last version had 20 downloads (still visible from the strato_generalmd tileset having the same number of downloads), so I take it that comparatively many people are playing this pack at the moment. Thank you all for your continued interest in the pack! :thumbsup:

Professional 07, 08, and 20 have had backroutes fixed, a couple other levels have had their sprites and/or backgrounds adapted. The latter changes are exclusive to the New-Formats version, because they were basically just about restoring these levels to the state they were in in the Old-Formats version. Meaning, the Old-Formats version already has these levels with the desired sprites and backgrounds. For example, the stars on the American flag on the level "Bay of Pigs" weren't displaying correctly in New Formats, this has been fixed, as well.

Also, all the talismans that are present in the Old-Formats version (10 in total) are now also included in New Formats! :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2020, 10:19:43 pm »
Solved the first 10 Diva levels. Still need to resolve the fixed ones as over the holidays I completely forgot the update. :P

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2020, 04:15:19 pm »
Alright, resolved the fixed levels and also solved further ahead to Diva 20. At the current state, the Barcelona level was the hardest for me so far. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2020, 10:32:27 am »
Thanks again, IchoTolot! :)

"Holy Diver" and "Blocking all over the world" still seem too easy. But I currently don't have any idea on how to fix that; specifically, on "Blocking all over the world", you created another shortcut with Bombers, and since Bombers don't care about one-way arrows in any direction, those are pretty much impossible to prevent. This is also true regarding your solution to "Don't cry for me, Argentina" on the Diva rank. Steel stops Bombers completely, one-way arrows don't stop them at all. So basically, the only way to prevent Bomber shortcuts is making the Bombers pickup skills. But even that isn't always feasible.

The majority of your solutions to the first 20 Diva levels, however, are either intended (levels 01, 05, 08, 10, 12, 16, 17, 18), or valid alternative solutions (02, 03, 06, 07, 09, 13, 14, 15, 19).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2020, 10:14:19 pm »
I uploaded a merely cosmetic update: My dark-skinned Lemmings are finally back! :thumbsup: They are now a recolouring scheme that is part of my strato_generalmd tileset.

This is what they look like (example level, not part of any pack):



Three levels have had their sprites changed to these lemmings: "Waka Waka" (Professional rank), "Diggas in Paris" (Diva rank), and "Africa" (Legend rank). I've also changed the sprites on "Barcelona" back to default, because they were accidentally still the Millas sprites.

You will have to re-download both strato_generalmd and the pack to make these changes visible. If you only re-download the styles, your versions of the levels will still point to the default-coloured sprites. If you only re-download the pack, I guess the sprites will fall back to default on those levels that now have strato_generalmd selected as their theme.

The colour of the one-way arrows on "Waka Waka" has also changed as a consequence, plus, the blue background from the Shadow tileset is actually not a background, but merely a picked colour. Hence, "Diggas in Paris", with the theme no longer being L2 Shadow, now has a slightly darker background (egypt sky).

The version of strato_generalmd in the development thread for Lemmings Open Air has also been renewed, so you can use either of these downloads; both will work. ;)

Finally, the zombies have had their skin set to completely white (colour code #ffffff), to make them more distinguishable from the standard zombie skin. This is also based on feedback I got from the first time when I shared these sprites.

Originally, the zombies were supposed to represent mummies, as these sprites were intended to go with the Egyptian style. Hence, their skin is brighter. But of course, they could also be evil colonial landowners... :evil: Interpret that as you wish; just know that this change was made mainly for game-mechanical reasons. ;)

I tried it out on one of the levels I'm developing for the L3D-inspired pack Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll - and since Zombie Blockers are only labelled as "Blocker" when hovering your mouse over them, it was really close to impossible to tell normal dark-skinned lemmings apart from zombies. Now, there should no longer be any confusion between the two.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 10:21:23 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2020, 05:11:35 pm »
After playing  for LOTY and other stuff I played further on here and solved 10 more Diva levels. :)

It made me quite angry and frustrated, because you can't see when you actually went over/under trigger areas (or where they are in the first place). I guess you know which level I mean here. :devil:
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 05:45:33 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2020, 09:41:01 pm »
Yes, I know which level you mean ;) . But since this is a rerun, I can assure you everything is exactly in the same place as it was the first time. So I think this criticism is actually more relevant to Noisemaker 15. Sure, in this case it's different because there is no Disarmer, so you have to e.g. build over some traps. But that's what skill shadows are for - you can clearly distinguish a staircase that leads the lemming into a trap from one that goes over it, because the latter should show its full length as a skill shadow, whereas the former is shortened, going only as far as up to the trap trigger.

I'll have a look at your replays soon and see whether anything needs fixing! :thumbsup: Thanks for returning to playing this pack!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2020, 03:13:19 pm »
Finished Diva and as the last time I posted replays was over a month back I also sloved Legend 39&40 on top of it (I have skill left over though). :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2020, 02:07:54 pm »
Thanks for the replays! :) A couple of leftover skills are no problem if the basic idea is that of the intended solution; this has also happened multiple times on Arty's LP.

Now you've caught up with that LP though, so everything from the Rockstar rank and onwards is uncharted territory! :thumbsup: Definitely expect a lot more backroutes on the last two ranks, since I haven't received any replays for those yet... ;)

Your solutions to the last two levels of the Legend rank are compeltely fine, though, and very close to the intended solutions.

In the second half of the Diva rank, there were only two backroutes, and only one major one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2020, 03:20:21 pm »
Solved 10 more levels today.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2020, 04:04:15 pm »
And another 10 so that Rockstar is half completed now.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2020, 11:44:52 am »
Thanks, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: I'm relieved to say that there are barely any backroutes among these, and generally much fewer than I anticipated! Given that you seem to be the first person who plays the Rockstar levels (and also one of our most skilled level solvers), I believe that's a good sign!

Disclaimer: I generally don't consider a level backrouted if a) the player got close to the intended solution, but was just slightly more efficient in skill use than me, i.e. has a couple of leftover skills that don't really matter all too much in the grand scheme of things, or b) a player does find a completely different route than the intended one, but still uses all or almost all of the skills (that is what I call a valid alternative solution, because it still arose from and is subject to the same restrictions, in terms of terrain and skills provided, as the intended solution).

With this set of criteria (some may be stricter about enforcing their intended solutions), there are only two backroutes in the Rockstar rank: One minor one which could still also qualify as an alternative solution, if I didn't like the intended solution so much that I do feel the need to enforce it :P . That's on the level "Highway to Hell". Containing the crowd shouldn't be quite as easy as it was for you, but this is something a little steel can solve.

The second backroute, which is a more severe one, was on "Under bergets rot". The lemmings are still supposed to go through the mountain, not around it on the outside. Typical case of the Stoner being overpowered again. I still have to think about how I can fix this.

At the moment, you seem to be solving these levels faster than I can fix them, even if there are only few that I need to fix :-[ ... so prepare for one major update sometime soon, instead of several minor ones. I do want to add some further recoloured sprites to some of the geography levels, as well as expanding the pre-level hints on the Noisemaker rank a little to make them fulfil their purpose as tutorial levels for these tricks a little more (since this was one criticism you correctly brought up). Especially "Glide and joy" and "Rock, paper, scissors" can end up being unintentional roadblocks for newer players, because the hints the pre-level texts give about the tricks to be used here are too vague.

The pre-level texts are of course also going to be changed in the Old-Formats version (which I continue to maintain for the sake of the Radiation and Slowfreeze levels in their original form). The sprite recolouring, meanwhile, of course will only happen in New Formats.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2020, 09:42:07 pm »
The update has been uploaded to the starting post! Please make sure to download the entire folder again, since I've changed the sprites on several of the levels to include my various recolourings (English, Irish, Soviet, Asian, African, Indian etc.). The tileset strato_generalmd now also comes as part of that unified ZIP folder, so you have all wrapped nicely in one place!

I've also used the opportunity to place "disjointed" versions of the ONML Rock Lizard and Bubble Lightning traps in my strato_generalmd tileset (meaning just the lizard's head, without the eye as a secondary animation, and just the dot that creates the lightning). Those were required for the Groupie level "Not the incended solution", to make it look like the Old-Formats version again. Also generally a good thing to have for all my animal-trap needs! :P

Level-wise, the changes are the same as in the Old-Formats versions:

- two backroute fixes each on the Diva rank ("Wrecking ball" and "Total eclipse of the builders") and Rockstar rank ("Highway to Hell" and "Under bergets rot"), with "Under bergets rot" still being somewhat vulnerable (the intended solution, as it turned out to me, was too over-complicated to begin with, so that there will most likely always be an easier way out... :-[ )

- extended pre-level hints on "Glide and joy" and "Rock, paper, scissors" on the Noisemaker rank. The tricks are now actually explained, rather than just hinted at. Especially "Glide and joy" (Noisemaker 08) was probably an early roadblock for any new player who might have attempted this pack. I went to great lengths to enforce using that specific trick there, which raised the level's difficulty - but in the end, it's just supposed to teach that trick, so hopefully it will be a lot easier now! ;)

- steel added to Noisemaker 11 to prevent digging behind the hatch on the right (this is a minor loophole I found myself that allowed bypassing the central trick at the beginning of the level, even though it still had to be used again at the end of the level). Now the central trick is enforced in both level halves.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2020, 08:32:47 pm »
I resolved the levels. :)

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2020, 02:06:31 am »
ok now i'm on to finishings the replays for world tour that Ichotolot had minus all but 2 levels of legend and 1 level of groupie.  thx Ichotolot. I love watching these replays as well as your other packs(just finished doing dovelems and pimolems-all good).

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2020, 07:03:43 pm »
Solved 10 more Rockstar levels today and also updated my old replays.

Could you confirm that no level broke due to the changes in glider physics? ???  Would not be pleasant if I encounter an impossible level later on. ;)

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2020, 07:24:14 pm »
Will do. I'll watch them now, including the updated ones. i'll report back when I'm finished. Thanks Icho. Also my conversion of Reunion to Superlemmini is finished. I'll saved all the replays. also I thanked Kaywhyn as he was there all the way. Also I'm there with him for his United replays.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 07:37:31 pm by ericderkovits »

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2020, 07:46:10 pm »
Will do. I'll watch them now, including the updated ones. i'll report back when I'm finished. Thanks Icho. Also my conversion of Reunion to Superlemmini is finished. I'll saved all the replays. also I thanked Kaywhyn as he was there all the way. Also I'm there with him for his United replays.

I know my replays work - I tested them all. I was rather referring to @Strato Incendus about the part of the pack I haven't solved yet. ;P

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2020, 07:54:09 pm »
ok sorry, I'll do that then.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2020, 07:58:40 pm »
ok sorry, I'll do that then.

What will you do? I am confused now, did you solve all of Lemmings World Tour and can confirm to me that every level in there is solvable and nothing is broken in the part I haven't solved yet?

If not then only Strato himself can confirm that to me.

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2020, 08:10:14 pm »
yeah your right I can't do this as there is no replays yet. and I didn't solve them.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2020, 06:47:42 pm »
Hi IchoTolot, to my knowledge this change in Glider physics should only affect Shimmier interactions.

Since Lemmings World Tour was originally made for Old Formats and thus doesn't include any Shimmier levels (nor does the New-Formats version, since I didn't add any new original levels during conversion), this shouldn't be an issue that affects Lemmings World Tour.

Lemmings Open Air had one or two levels affected, but that pack is still in its development stage, and I have already adjusted the levels in question a while ago ("Mr Sandlem, give me a dream" and "My life would suck without you").
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2020, 09:00:04 pm »
Hi IchoTolot, to my knowledge this change in Glider physics should only affect Shimmier interactions.

Since Lemmings World Tour was originally made for Old Formats and thus doesn't include any Shimmier levels (nor does the New-Formats version, since I didn't add any new original levels during conversion), this shouldn't be an issue that affects Lemmings World Tour.

Lemmings Open Air had one or two levels affected, but that pack is still in its development stage, and I have already adjusted the levels in question a while ago ("Mr Sandlem, give me a dream" and "My life would suck without you").

No, that not true. The glider behaves slightly differently in many scenarios. I had quite a few glides in United where no shimmier was present that broke. Especially updrafts are affected, but also normal glides.

Could you simply do a mass replay check of your own replays to check if everything is alright? ???

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2020, 08:51:25 am »
Mmh, my own replays are all named after the levels and placed in the "Auto" folder, since they are created when I test the level in the editor. If I start a mass replay check in that folder, every replay file within it is checked, including those from other packs.

Then again, if I understand you correctly you are only asking about upcoming levels? Meaning, the question is not whether existing replay files break, but whether any of the upcoming levels are so pixel-precise in terms of Glider use that they might happen to be unsolvable?
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2020, 11:23:17 am »
Quote
Then again, if I understand you correctly you are only asking about upcoming levels? Meaning, the question is not whether existing replay files break, but whether any of the upcoming levels are so pixel-precise in terms of Glider use that they might happen to be unsolvable?

Exactly. :)

A lot of cases were it was breaking in my case was because a simple glider from the ceiling to a ledge was just not making it anymore or anything with glider-updraft interaction.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2020, 06:16:45 pm »
Okay, levels that are definitely broken because of updrafts are "Viva Colonia!", "Lemmings in the sky with diamonds", "Wind of change" and "Lemmingrad".

The updrafts are in such positions that the Glider parachute no longer opens up when a lemming drops into them. :evil:

In case of "Viva Colonia", I currently have no idea on how to fix this. It was bad enough with the deadly ceiling enforcing a change at the top of the cathedral, and now everything breaks again.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2020, 06:53:36 pm »
yes, I currently have all of Icho's replays for world tour up to Rockstar 30, Viva Colonia was broken for his replay. but I managed to fix it myself.
 
I just moved down the pickup skill a tad above cathedral. so now it will work.

here is the level and replay that icho had for Rockstar 15 Viva Colonia.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 09:39:20 pm by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2020, 10:12:54 pm »
Well, isn't this fascinating? I just took a look at Viva Colonia and even though the glider physics is broken, I still managed to backroute the level by using all skills except the glider! My solution is the exact same as Icho's,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, the level is still solvable even with the broken glider physics and the miner pickup in the original position in the updraft, but still need to fix it. Probably should still be fixed anyway if you consider this a backroute since my solution doesn't even use the glider!

edit: Strato, let me know if you still want my replay for Rockstar 15, but I think the spoiler tag does the job of describing the backroute solution somewhat well.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 10:35:07 pm by kaywhyn »

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2020, 10:20:46 pm »
In my recent replay batch I had to fix "Viva Colonia", but it definitly not broke in an unsolvable way. Maybe when it comes to the intended way though. ;P

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2020, 08:14:17 am »
More replays and at this point, I definitly want a clear report on which levels are broken that lie before me.

I played up to Legend 4 and here I HIGHLY suspect breakage due to a glider not gliding long enough so another assignment is not in time by 1-2 frames.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can be wrong here of course, but before I waste time on an impossible level, I rather stop and ask.

EDIT: I've attached a replay that solves the level with saving 1 less lemming. The lemming would be saved without the glider problem.

So before I continue this pack I want to see either:

1.) A clear report on which levels are broken ahead of me with a textfile of a mass replay check that confirms which replays broke.
2.) A patch that fixes all broken levels together with a textfile of a mass replay check that confirms that everything is solvable now.

If you don't have solving replays to all of yout levels here then take this as a chance to create them as a functioning replay collection is a must have to any pack to confirm solvability and detect any breakage. ´

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2020, 09:10:04 am »
Quote
If you don't have solving replays to all of yout levels here then take this as a chance to create them as a functioning replay collection is a must have to any pack to confirm solvability and detect any breakage.

Of course I have solving replays for all the levels. :P Why would anyone not test a level after creating it?

The difference here is that the physics were changed in hindsight (and of course, this also only affects the New-Formats version; the original version for Old Formats, for which LWT was initially created, after all, works perfectly fine).

I have done a mass replay check and I've already told you above which levels did not receive a "tick". ;) After the initial mass replay check, there were some levels unticked that didn't involve Gliders or updrafts at all and that I could still resolve manually. The reason for this is that the replay files were of course created in Old Formats (I've run the replay-updater tool on them, so I also have a .bak file for each of those replays in the Old-Formats Auto folder).

My New-Formats Auto folder thus includes re-solving replays for levels that had to be slightly adapted to New Formats.

The levels listed in my previous posts are definitely ones with updrafts where my formerly solving replay files don't work anymore: "Viva Colonia!" (Rockstar 15), "Lemmings in the sky with diamonds" (Legend 06), "Lemmingrad" (Legend 07), and "Wind of Change" (Legend 10).

I haven't looked at the mass-replay text file yet (and can't access it right now, maybe tonight). Instead, I went by the level selection menu within the pack (i.e. looked which levels remained unticked and checked those again individually).

Does a mass-replay-check text file include "pass" statements by every replay file checked, or by level in the pack? i.e. does it list the number of levels and label them "passed" or "not passed", or does it include the names of replays instead?

Because in the latter case, I don't think the text file will be of particular use to you: As previously said, I had this mass replay check run over my entire "Auto" folder where all the replays are named by level name (as created by testing in the editor), instead of by rank + level number (as they are named when they are created while playing the entire pack).
This is better for me as the level designer in case levels shift positions in ranks; replays named only "Rockstar 15" don't tell you anything about the level hiding behind that title.

Thus, there are a bunch of replays for other packs in that folder that obviously won't pass any of the levels in Lemmings World Tour.

Also, some of the Old-Formats replays used during the mass replay check running over the Old-Formats Auto folder will have received a "fail", which would then appear in the mass-replay-check results file, but the levels are still solvable using the New-Formats replay.


I can take a look at Legend 04 again tonight and then I'll post the result here.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 09:18:37 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2020, 10:11:59 am »
Quote
I have done a mass replay check and I've already told you above which levels did not receive a "tick".
...
I haven't looked at the mass-replay text file yet (and can't access it right now, maybe tonight). Instead, I went by the level selection menu within the pack (i.e. looked which levels remained unticked and checked those again individually).

I think you completely missunderstood for what the "ticks" inside the level selection menu are.

Of course they don't change as the level file itself did not change. Only if you edit the level file or replace it then the tick changes to a yellow tick or a dot.

The ONLY thing you can go by when you check for breakage is the mass-replay check result text file. Only there you can see which levels need investigation --> everything labeled "Failed" or "Undetermined". It does not mean the level is broken, maybe only the replay file needs slight adjustments, but it means the level might be broken.

Quote
Because in the latter case, I don't think the text file will be of particular use to you:

Of course it is! It's a proof that every level has been solved by a replay.

The textfile exactly shows which replay is connected to which level and if it solves it. It will show for example that "Great level name" is solved by the replay "Legend45" - so the replay names don't matter. I myself use the level's name as the replay name for my own stuff.
Example
-Passed-
Great level name: Legend45.nxrp (framecount)

I've attached an example of a replay check I did a week ago or so. The one failed replay is because you used the same level ID for 2 different levels and the replay check connected the replay with the wrong level. It solves the other level with the same ID though.
Therefore it is recommended that even for reused levels you at least change the level ID.

Quote
I had this mass replay check run over my entire "Auto" folder
...
Thus, there are a bunch of replays for other packs in that folder that obviously won't pass any of the levels in Lemmings World Tour.

Make a folder "Lemmings World Tour" inside NL's replay folder and put all your own LWT replays in there. Then you only have the replays that matter counting.
Replay files need to be organized! Simply putting everything in 1 folder ends in chaos. Every pack you create and solve should have an own folder with replays so that everything is nicely ordered and can be checked easily.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2020, 08:55:05 pm »
Okay, I've checked my replay of Legend 04 ("Take me home, country roads"), and it works fine. The reason that yours doesn't is simply because you're making a small conceptual mistake of when to assign the Stoner. :P

Quote
I think you completely missunderstood for what the "ticks" inside the level selection menu are.

Of course they don't change as the level file itself did not change. Only if you edit the level file or replace it then the tick changes to a yellow tick or a dot.

The ONLY thing you can go by when you check for breakage is the mass-replay check result text file. Only there you can see which levels need investigation --> everything labeled "Failed" or "Undetermined". It does not mean the level is broken, maybe only the replay file needs slight adjustments, but it means the level might be broken.

Thanks for the explanation. I have run all my replays over the Legend rank "manually" (loading the level and holding down the space bar) and I can thus assure you that, aside from the levels I've listed so far ("Lemmings in the sky with diamonds", "Lemmingrad", and "Wind of Change", i.e. Legend 06, 07, and 10), none of the Legend levels is broken.


I will have a look at the two remaining ranks (Encore and Groupie) soon.

Quote
Make a folder "Lemmings World Tour" inside NL's replay folder and put all your own LWT replays in there. Then you only have the replays that matter counting.
Replay files need to be organized!

They are organised - alphabetically. :P This means I don't have to navigate through a bunch of folders, especially when jumping between different packs. Now that I'm working on several packs in parallel, this comes in really handy. I can just start typing the level name while inside my Auto folder an immediately find what I'm looking for, no matter which pack it is from.

Who would have known that somebody would tinker the physics in hindsight? Don't get me wrong, I understand why the change to Glider-Shimmier behaviour was made (even though I did like that trick with gliding on top of the stack :evil: ). It's just that such retroactive physics changes after the official implementation of a skill (in contrast to experimental versions) were one of the things that were for the longest time sure not to happen. So I don't feel bad that my way of organising replays happens to not fit this one weird corner-case of a retroactive physics change.

Without such fundamental changes in game mechanics, I've never felt the need to do a mass-replay check in the first place. During the conversion to New Formats, I re-checked every level once by manually running a replay over it, but that was because I had something to change about almost every level (and if it was just re-adding the backgrounds, many of which were resetted by the converter tool). I wanted to make sure with my own eyes that every level still looked the way I had intended it to in Old Formats, or at least as close at it was possible in New Formats.

In order to now place all LWT replay files into one folder, I'd have to go over the entire list of level-name-based replay files, find the 320 among them that are in LWT - some of them are also included in other packs, though, especially on the Encore rank, so that's an additional thing - before I could isolate them in a separate folder. Hardly worth it.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2020, 09:33:36 pm »
The hotfix has been uploaded; Rockstar 15, Legend 06, 07, and 10 have all been fixed now. Thus, the entirety of the Legend rank can be solved again..

In most cases, it was only necessary to move the updraft section down 1 or 2 pixels (and then potentially re-adjust the timing of all skills assigned to that lemming afterwards, but those were of course just things specific to my replay file that no longer meant the level was unsolvable per se). The needed to be high enough for the Glider to start flying, after all.

Thanks to ericderkovits's suggestion for how to fix Rockstar 15, but moving the pickup skill so far below the updraft was not the intended solution. ;)

In case of Legend 10, I had to slightly adjust the terrain as well, because the problem was not just the lemming missing the updraft, but landing on terrain before he could take off as a Glider inside that updraft. This has lead to slightly worse aesthetics on one particularly iconic building from Moscow in that level. But I guess it's hard to notice unless you actively pay attention to it.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2020, 09:50:03 pm »
Quote
Okay, I've checked my replay of Legend 04 ("Take me home, country roads"), and it works fine. The reason that yours doesn't is simply because you're making a small conceptual mistake of when to assign the Stoner.

Ok, good. Updated replay attached.

Quote
Thanks for the explanation. I have run all my replays over the Legend rank "manually" (loading the level and holding down the space bar) and I can thus assure you that, aside from the levels I've listed so far ("Lemmings in the sky with diamonds", "Lemmingrad", and "Wind of Change", i.e. Legend 06, 07, and 10), none of the Legend levels is broken.

You really don't have to do that manually when you got the mass replay check, stop the madness! Even your auto folder will be fine as every replay which does not have a level in this pack will be put under "level not found".
Just try it and you'll see that the mass replay textfile is the best and most important source of information about the effects of a new patch! Guess how I find all these bugs so quickly after a new patch/exp version? ???  Mass replay check --> Textfile --> Look at undetermined/failed replays.

Quote
They are organised - alphabetically. :P This means I don't have to navigate through a bunch of folders, especially when jumping between different packs. Now that I'm working on several packs in parallel, this comes in really handy. I can just start typing the level name while inside my Auto folder an immediately find what I'm looking for, no matter which pack it is from.

I still highly advertise sorting replays for each pack in different folders as the the folder will grow larger and larger and it will get more and more messy (even when alphabetically sorted) and just clicking on the pack's replay folder will be way faster then.
Even when handling my massive ammounts of DNA data at work I rather sort in many diffrent folders than one, because at some point the folder beomes so large that even navigating through it becomes problematic and just a having to click on a seperate folder is much quicker.
Also checks will get longer.

Quote
It's just that such retroactive physics changes after the official implementation of a skill (in contrast to experimental versions) were one of the things that were for the longest time sure not to happen. So I don't feel bad that my way of organising replays happens to not fit this one weird corner-case of a retroactive physics change.

Without such fundamental changes in game mechanics, I've never felt the need to do a mass-replay check in the first place. During the conversion to New Formats, I re-checked every level once by manually running a replay over it, but that was because I had something to change about almost every level (and if it was just re-adding the backgrounds, many of which were resetted by the converter tool). I wanted to make sure with my own eyes that every level still looked the way I had intended it to in Old Formats, or at least as close at it was possible in New Formats.

You should always be prepared for the possibility of slight physics changes. Also, even without mechanic doing a mass replay check after an NL update is highly recommended. You just are on the safe side after it that no weird new bug messed up your stuff. It just takes a few minutes and you got new proof textfiles that everything is solvable. :)

Quote
In order to now place all LWT replay files into one folder, I'd have to go over the entire list of level-name-based replay files, find the 320 among them that are in LWT - some of them are also included in other packs, though, especially on the Encore rank, so that's an additional thing - before I could isolate them in a separate folder. Hardly worth it.

It's extremely worth it when you are doing maintenence and and want to avoid problems in form of too many files in one folder. Trust me it will only get more and more messy in there and problems will form and grow over time.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2020, 02:52:07 pm »
Alright and that's the lengend rank finished. 8-)

Replays attached.

I have to make one rant though! :devil:  Legend 27......

1st: The constant sound of multiple teleporters that just gets worse and worse made me mute the sound. Just let the lems die and set the save requirement accordingly.

2nd: The stupid unfair zapper clouds that zap you out of nowhere! The grey clouds should not be traps, they are intended to act like steel! If you just took the bubble zapper for example and put it on top of them - no problem, but nooo everything has to be hidden that the player has no chance seeing the dangers in advance by looking at the level. :devil:

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2020, 01:43:31 pm »
Sorry but I again feel the need to rant a bit after the Encore rank! :8():

Solved the Encore rank ... I would have liked to say, but it seems like you still haven't done that mass replay check and informed me that Encore 05 is broken due to the gliders not reaching the 2nd platform anymore.

Please, just run a quick mass replay check and see if a replay fails/is undertermined. Even if you got every replay in 1 folder it still tells you which ones fail and the other not World Tour related ones would fall under "Level not found" anyway! So it would still work.

Otherwise, we've got an exit which trigger area is not visible due to water and you need to keep guessing where it actually is with your stoners. (Encore 13) :devil:

An invisible trap (Encore 33) :devil:

And a level where you know it's just annoying to play (see postview text of Encore 39) and just blame it on the hard-worker removal. Instead you just could have done one of the following possibilities which would spare the players nerves:

1.) Just making the level smaller with only 1-2 stacker gaps.
2.) Think of an alternative solution to the level and enforce that.
3.) Leave the level out of the pack and put it in Lemmicks instead.

All these options would have been better than a postview text shifting the blame! :devil:

My replays are attached.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2020, 11:54:16 pm »
Quote
Encore 05 is broken due to the gliders not reaching the 2nd platform anymore.

Thanks for informing me! :) I've had to move and even erase a bit of terrain to make it work again, but it should be barely noticeable. The version with the fixed level is attached.

I had only checked up to the end of the Legend rank, i.e. the main pack, so far. Meaning, no guarantees yet for the Groupie rank. But I will take a look at those as quickly as possible.

Quote
Solved the Encore rank ... I would have liked to say, but it seems like you still haven't done that mass replay check

As I've told you above, I've actually done a mass replay check already. ;) It's just that the output file is pretty useless.

Quote from: Strato Incendus
I have done a mass replay check

The reason being that a lot of replays in the folder fail not because the level is unsolvable, but because they are Old-Formats replays. There are a couple of levels for which I had to create new replays in New Formats: Levels formerly featuring radiation and/or slowfreeze, some levels requiring a hand-made terrain ceiling (because of the switch from solid to deadly ceiling), and then there were also some levels for which the solution is the same, but slight unknown variations during conversion caused the original replay to fail. Thus, those replays are in the New-Formats folder.

For all the other levels, however, whenever I change something, I do so in Old Formats first, re-run the replay, then either manually implement the change in New Formats or, if I want to be on the safe side, quickly re-convert the level again. Then I run the exact same Old-Formats replay over the New-Formats version, thus ensuring that the same solution works in both versions.

Consequently, when I run a mass replay check over the Old-Formats folder that contains all the LWT replays, of course this results in a bunch of failed messages for Replays from Paralems and Pit Lems, as well as for Old-Formats LWT solutions that don't work in New Formats, but are still perfectly fine replays for the Old-Formats version.

I maintain those in parallel (e.g. Arty already told me he's going to continue playing the pack in Old Formats), and therefore of course don't delete those replay files from the Old-Formats folder. And especially with the Encore rank, there is even more overlap with replays for Paralems and Pit Lems.

In short, the mass replay check file on the Old-Formats replay folder gave out so many errors that I would have to re-check a ton of levels again manually anyway, because these failures can be caused by a multitude of reasons listed above, and only a fraction of them is due to the Glider-Faller physics change. And most of these are issues that I have of course already fixed in the New-Formats version - it's just that those fixed levels have dedicated New-Formats replays as a consequence, which are not in the Old-Formats folder. The few levels that are affected by the Glider-Faller physics change are thus a needle in a haystack of replay files failing for various other reasons.



Instead of manually identifying and copying all the 320 Old-Formats replay files to the New-Formats replay folder, I went the faster opposite route and copied the few replay files which are dedicated New-Formats replay files to the Old-Formats folder. Now I could run a second mass replay check over the entire Auto folder once again, so there should be at least one solving replay for every New-Formats level in that folder. This will take a while, though, because there are obviously still a bunch of replays from other packs in that folder.

Quote
Otherwise, we've got an exit which trigger area is not visible due to water and you need to keep guessing where it actually is with your stoners. (Encore 13)

Yep, this is always the issue with underwater levels - be the water real or an updraft, like in Arty's tileset - it's trigger areas covering traps and/or exits that's the problem in general. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile suggestion to have trigger areas of different types of objects change colour in true-physics mode whenever they overlap? Meaning, two overlapping updrafts / water / fire areas etc. would not change colour, but an exit inside an updraft, a trap inside water etc. would (e.g. one could be pink, the other one green, to create a strong contrast).

Note though that "Dark fate of Atlantis" used to have a hidden trap, which is set to overwrite / on terrain now. :P So with all the water that the level calls for, it's as fair as it can currently get.

Speaking of hidden traps, though...

Quote
An invisible trap (Encore 33)

I don't know what you are referring to here. The smasher trap on "We are the Lempions" is clearly visible above the water. The levels before (Lost in Space) and after (Fire in the hole) don't even have any traps, just fire areas, and those are also visible.

Are you referring to a different level, maybe? Or is there something different in your version of the level compared to mine? ??? "We are the Lempions" is from Pit Lems, after all, and in that pack I tried to be as mechanically fair as possible (even fairer than on some select LWT levels featuring a certain octopus :evil: ).

Quote
And a level where you know it's just annoying to play (see postview text of Encore 39) and just blame it on the hard-worker removal. Instead you just could have done one of the following possibilities which would spare the players nerves:

1.) Just making the level smaller with only 1-2 stacker gaps.
2.) Think of an alternative solution to the level and enforce that.
3.) Leave the level out of the pack and put it in Lemmicks instead.

All these options would have been better than a postview text shifting the blame!

The level "Brothers in arms" actually already is part of Lemmicks (on the Eternal rank featuring the hardworkers gimmick, obviously). ;)
This was just the best way I could re-create it in 10.13 and New Formats, given that "Brothers in arms" is a very famous song that I hardly wanted to leave out.

The original plan in Lemmicks was to have a Basher bash alongside with a Platformer platforming - hence the level title. Didn't quite work how I wanted it to, even in Lemmicks, but the title remained. ;) And thus, now it's here on the Encore rank.

Now you know what I meant when I said in the opening post that the Encore levels were not selected for quality - only because they happened to be previous levels that had also been named after songs. ;)

That said, I obviously wouldn't have included the rank if I hadn't had the impression that a good amount of them are at least worthwhile. Some I even really like quite a lot (e.g. "Na zdorovje Lem" and "That's the name of the game").
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2020, 01:18:51 am »
Cool, now that Encore 5 is fixed, I solved this one, since it was easy. Also I redownloaded the Pack from the new uploaded link. Also redownloaded Icho's replays. All passed the Mass Replay checks.
As Rockstar 15(Viva Colonia) is now changed, Icho's replay for this level is now good also. So now I'll be waiting for any new uploads for the pack if there are any to correct any glider issues in the
final rank Groupie. Once that is done and Icho posts replays for the Groupie rank, and I turn everything green, then I can officially say I have this pack as another completed pack with replays.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2020, 08:11:41 am »
Quote
Once that is done and Icho posts replays for the Groupie rank, and I turn everything green, then I can officially say I have this pack as another completed pack with replays.

Well, what does that really say if you "solved" the pack just using someone else's replays? ;)

Also, being the savvy player that he is, I'm pretty sure IchoTolot is going to find many further backroutes. Especially since he's the first player to actually make it to the final ranks, it seems. These backroutes I will have to fix afterwards, and then a good chunk of your "replay collection" won't work anymore.

So even if you just like to collect replays and compare and contrast solutions, this endeavour is going to turn pointless pretty quickly, at least at this stage.

I may upload my official solutions at some point (e.g. after IchoTolot has finished everything and thus every level has been subjected to backroute scrutiny by an expert player at least once, with me fixing all backroutes found that way). Then every level should be in a reasonably backroute-proof state. Sometimes these backroute fixes indeed require slight (e.g. timing) adaptations to the replays of the intended solution.

If I do upload my intended replays, I will do so separately for Old-Formats and New-Formats, because the radiation and slowfreeze levels obviously have completely different solutions between the two versions.

Or, if I feel like it and have a lot of time, I might do a creator's commentary series on YouTube, if anyone is interested? ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2020, 08:13:46 am »
Quote
Are you referring to a different level, maybe?

Yes, sorry, it was the other Sports level (Encore 35) with the invisible egyptian smasher trap in it.


Regarding the whole replay system you are using:

The fact that you are having these troubles now proves that your current system is extremely flawed and is in desperate need of fixing.

I would drop everything right now and make fixing the replay structure the number 1 priority! The most important thing: Seperate old and new format replays completely so that a mass replay check can indeed be run! - Saw you indeed did that.

Quote
Instead of manually identifying and copying all the 320 Old-Formats replay files to the New-Formats replay folder, I went the faster opposite route and copied the few replay files which are dedicated New-Formats replay files to the Old-Formats folder. Now I could run a second mass replay check over the entire Auto folder once again, so there should be at least one solving replay for every New-Formats level in that folder. This will take a while, though, because there are obviously still a bunch of replays from other packs in that folder.

Yes do it, it should still be quick. It's a very essential feature and assuring solvability of the pack to new players needs to be fast and trivial.

I still would go even further and invest the time to seperate the replays to each pack in different folders. Just trust me that the time spend on this well invested. A good structure when organizing files is essential.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2020, 10:19:44 am »
Up to Groupie 15. In 16 I am standing before a wall with no destruction skills and no pick ups...... :devil:  I don't know if a gimmick was intended here or you just missed to give the player some skills.....

Attached the replays so far.


Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2020, 10:41:34 am »
...and here's the fix for the Groupie rank (upload in the starting post)!

The initial mass replay check listed three levels as failing in which the Glider-Faller physics change didn't actually render the level impossible - it just altered the timing of my skill assignments in those particular replay files. Those were the levels

"That's a hard level that is" (Groupie 02)
"You know you make me wanna shout" (Groupie 13)
"I see fire" (Groupie 34)

Thus, nothing has changed about these level files; I only needed to correct the timing of the skill assignment in my replays. If anyone has solved these levels in the meantime using the current NeoLemmix version, those replays should still work.

The only levels that needed fixing were "Read my lips" (Groupie 10) and "All for love" (Groupie 16).

Groupie 10 needed one particular platform to be placed two pixels lower so that a Glider dropping from the ceiling could still land on it.

Groupie 16 had a completely unrelated issue: It is a level featuring an infinite number of Fencers.
In Old Formats, the number I set the skill count to for this purpose was 200.
In New Formats, the Fencer skill somehow was missing from the panel entirely.
As far as I recall, this was not the case during my initial conversion to New Formats, because I checked every single level again back then.
When I re-entered the number 200 in the New Formats editor, it was automatically set to 100. Apparently this is now the number instructing NeoLemmix to just set the skill count to infinite.

Maybe this change was implemented somewhere in the meantime, between two New-Formats versions? ???



Quote
Up to Groupie 15. In 16 I am standing before a wall with no destruction skills and no pick ups...... :devil:  I don't know if a gimmick was intended here or you just missed to give the player some skills.....

As you can see, I had already discovered this myself in the meantime. :P I warned you yesterday evening that Groupie hadn't been checked yet, but it is now.
If you insisted on continuing to play in the few hours between yesterday evening and right now... :evil: But of course, I appreciate your persistence! :thumbsup:



I've attached the results of the latest mass replay check. I figure the PASSED section will be most informative to you, because some levels have an earlier (=Old-Formats) version of a replay listed under FAILED, but then another replay in the folder that solves it, and therefore the level will also appear under PASSED.

The levels are sorted alphabetically, but each line starts with the rank and level numbers, which are consequently all over the place. If you're looking for a particular level, just look for its name in the alphabetical list in the PASSED section and ignore the rank and level number before the name.

I guess in order for the mass replay file to show the levels in chronological order, when working with named level files as created by the editor (instead of numerical level files as created by the player), each of those level files would have to start with a rank number, then followed by a level number (01_01, 01_02, and so on). So the issue of alphabetical vs. rank and level number will always be present when using replay files created in the editor.

It seems this tool is overall more useful for checking whether your replays for somebody else's pack still work (because those are usually created while playing, i.e. in the player and therefore sorted by number instead of by level name), and less optimal for checking one's own pack. Of course, there will always be more packs by others a given person is playing than the number of packs that person created themselves, so it's still obviously a very useful tool most of the time.

Quote
Yes, sorry, it was the other Sports level (Encore 35) with the invisible egyptian smasher trap in it.

Ah yeah, that is an old Paralems level. The reason I didn't change this in LWT is again an aesthetic one (kind of like with "Octopus's garden" and "Thunderstruck"), because I wanted the smashers to line up with the walls, i.e. look like they're coming out of the walls, rather than half out of thin air. Yes, this buries the trigger in the ground, but it wouldn't be much more visible otherwise either, given that both the trigger and the terrain are green, and the trigger is just 1 pixel high.

You kind of have to cover that pit anyway, because the lemmings can't get out otherwise. Maybe depending on how you assign the Miner, you could make it work.

I might change this in the future, I'll have to make up my mind about it. Either way, it shouldn't make or break solutions, because the height of the trigger area isn't relevant to the solution. It's a pure visuals-vs-game-fairness thing.

Quote
Yes do it, it should still be quick. It's a very essential feature and assuring solvability of the pack to new players needs to be fast and trivial.

It actually is fast in general; the reason it takes longer is because the mass replay check always stops at the Groupie level "Hiroshima", giving me the message of falling back to default sprites. So I need to be present at the screen to click that message away.

I assume this is because GigaLem's Millas sprites don't contain a Jumper sprite yet? "Hiroshima" is one of the GigaLem-Groupie levels, so they kind of have to feature those sprites. There is no Jumper on the level (not in the entire pack, even), but of course, if you're using NeoLemmix 12.9, the engine will require every sprite set to have a Jumper sprite as much as any other sprite.

Quote
I would drop everything right now and make fixing the replay structure the number 1 priority! The most important thing: Seperate old and new format replays completely so that a mass replay check can indeed be run! - Saw you indeed did that.

In fact, the opposite was the solution - throw both Old- and New-Formats replays into one folder so that the mass replay check always finds at least one working solution! :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2020, 11:43:57 am »
And that makes the pack completed. All replays attached. 8-)

Quote
Maybe this change was implemented somewhere in the meantime, between two New-Formats versions?

All skill counts can only go up to 99, this was patch quite a while ago.

Quote
I assume this is because GigaLem's Millas sprites don't contain a Jumper sprite yet?

Giga's Millas are already updated. In the most recent version they do have that jumper sprite and I myself have no disruptions in my replay check.

Quote
It seems this tool is overall more useful for checking whether your replays for somebody else's pack still work

It's VERY effective in checking your own packs. I myself save replays for my own levels with the level name as the file name just like you do and I see immediately when something goes from PASSED to FAILED/UNDERTERMINED.

It's also very fast and I can proof solvability to all my packs in a matter of minutes.

Quote
In fact, the opposite was the solution - throw both Old- and New-Formats replays into one folder so that the mass replay check always finds at least one working solution!

This just shows that your replay folder needs an exorcist. :8():

All new format replays (one for each level) in one folder. The old format replay collection in another one. That for each and every pack.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2020, 11:21:35 am »
First things first: Congratulations on and a big round of applause for being the first to beat the entire (New-Formats Version of) the pack, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I had already fixed the backroutes you found (where possible) up to the end of the Rockstar rank (but I haven't uploaded an update yet). For now I've taken a look at your replays for the Legend rank. As I've expected, with higher level complexity, larger skill sets, and thus more degrees of freedom, the number of backroutes went up significantly - at least for you being the first one to even attempt these levels.

Funnily enough, the levels I expected you the most to backroute were the ones you actually didn't backroute. ;)

I'm writing down my feedback to the single Legend levels in the spoiler tag - not just for you, but also for me to remember what I need to fix. 8-) Right now, it's still fresh in my memory, but I'm sure this will take a while to implement.

IchoTolot Legend rank (click to show/hide)

To be continued soon! ;)

Quote
All skill counts can only go up to 99, this was patch quite a while ago.

Well, infinite skills are still possible. ;) It's just that you apparently have to type a 100 into the skill count specifically to make it work, rather than any number larger than 99.

Quote
Giga's Millas are already updated. In the most recent version they do have that jumper sprite and I myself have no disruptions in my replay check.

Thanks for the info, then it seems I just need to update my style files! ;)

Quote
All new format replays (one for each level) in one folder. The old format replay collection in another one. That for each and every pack.

On the vast majority of the levels, the solution for Old and New Formats are the same. So I'd rather have one file for each solution instead of having duplicates leafing around that I could then accidentally modify independently of each other. ;)

When checking your own packs, do you make more use of the "PASSED" section, or of the "FAILED" section?

I assume the FAILED section is supposed to be very short, so that each entry there serves as an alarm signal. The thing is, though, that I deliberately also keep replays of backroutes, so whenever I change something about a level, I can run those again and make sure the backroutes are still disabled. Thus, those formerly solving replay files will always show up under failed, and in that case, this is a good thing, because they shouldn't be allowed to pass. ;)

Of course, with steel and one-way arrows, those usually remain in place, so they don't require constant rechecking when editing a level. In contrast though, any adjustments to the skill panel and, by extension, placement of pickup skills, can easily re-introduce backroutes again, if the player suddenly has a skill at their disposal again that they shouldn't have, and can then use it in a place where they shouldn't use it. 8-)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2020, 12:09:23 pm »
Quote
First things first: Congratulations on and a big round of applause for being the first to beat the entire (New-Formats Version of) the pack, IchoTolot!

Thanks! ;)

Quote
When checking your own packs, do you make more use of the "PASSED" section, or of the "FAILED" section?

FAILED and UNDETERMINED.

I've got only the replays of the pack I want to check in the selected folder, so if nothing is in FAILED or UNDETERMINED  and everything is in PASSED it's alright. This can be checked in a second if you've got the file.

Basically, if I see anything in FAILED or UNDETERMINED then I need to check what's wrong.

Quote
The thing is, though, that I deliberately also keep replays of backroutes

Keep them in a seperate folder called "Lemmings World Tour Backroutes". In there they won't interfere anymore and if you want to do an additional check on them if they still fail you can do that as well.

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2020, 05:49:29 pm »
A big congratulations from me as well for not only officially being the first person to finish the pack, but also for finishing the largest level pack there currently is! :thumbsup: That's quite an accomplishment. I'll get to LWT eventually. It's on my to-play list, but it's probably going to be a while before I do so, since there's still plenty of other level packs that I'm currently prioritizing. I have plans to do both the Old Formats and the New Formats versions. I should probably start with the Old Formats version first, considering that no one else has finished it, as well as getting used to the culled objects and other things exclusive to the v10 NL players. Not to mention there isn't as many packs in the Old Formats left for me to play. Come to think of it, unless I'm forgetting some of the packs, I think Strato's (Pit Lems, Paralems, and Old Formats LWT are the ones that come to mind) are the only ones left I need to play in Old Formats. We'll see.

edit: Forgot about Casualemmings, where I'm currently stuck on Super Mecha Gators with the uber crocodile traps. Now, you said that Perky 20 is indeed possible? Ninoaddict showed you a solvable replay of the level?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 09:49:28 pm by kaywhyn »

Offline ericderkovits

  • Posts: 496
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2020, 10:24:50 pm »
yes I got all of icho's replays now for LWT. But I had to redownload Stratos pack 2 days ago since he altered some levels because icho's replays were broken (ie Viva Colonia).
I did a Mass replay check on Icho's new Updated replays and now there all good.

So I updated my list of custom new format packs I have replays for.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2020, 12:10:54 pm »
Quote
I should probably start with the Old Formats version first, considering that no one else has finished it, as well as getting used to the culled objects and other things exclusive to the v10 NL players.

I'm very happy to hear that! :thumbsup:

Quote
Come to think of it, unless I'm forgetting some of the packs, I think Strato's (Pit Lems, Paralems, and Old Formats LWT are the ones that come to mind) are the only ones left I need to play in Old Formats. We'll see.

If those are all you have left to play in Old Formats, don't be hesitant to jump straight to LWT, as far as packs on that Old-Formats list are concerned. ;) Paralems was my very first pack and quality levels are few and far between. Pit Lems is mechanically fair and slightly more challenging, but it has no overarching theme, in contrast to LWT. Plus, I am still working on Pit Lems Remastered for New Formats anyway, which is going to be Pit Lems + the best levels of Paralems mashed into one slightly larger pack (150 levels).

Unless of course you want to give my radiation and slowfreeze levels from Pit Lems a try. Those won't make it to New Formats, obviously, and some of them I am quite proud of. :D In that case, I'd probably point you to Old-Formats Pit Lems first.

Quote
edit: Forgot about Casualemmings, where I'm currently stuck on Super Mecha Gators with the uber crocodile traps. Now, you said that Perky 20 is indeed possible? Ninoaddict showed you a solvable replay of the level?

Coincidentally, this is one of the few levels from Casualemmings that only exists in Old Formats. I've redesigned traps for New Formats in such a way thought that it should be possible now to convert the level to New Formats, and include it in the new version as well. I've already contacted nin10doadict about this, but haven't received a response so far. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2020, 02:58:40 pm »
Coincidentally, this is one of the few levels from Casualemmings that only exists in Old Formats. I've redesigned traps for New Formats in such a way thought that it should be possible now to convert the level to New Formats, and include it in the new version as well. I've already contacted nin10doadict about this, but haven't received a response so far. :P

Yes, I remember you saying that you were willing to lend nin10doaddict a hand in converting the uber deadly crocodile traps. However, that's not my main concern. What I want to know is if he ever showed you an actual replay that solves Perky 20, as I'm still finding the level completely and downright impossible. The 3-in-1 crocodile trap triggers way too fast (well, the first two anyway, the zapper from the bubble tileset and the lizard tongue from the rock tileset). From what I remember, I think you said that he gave you hints on how to solve it. From what it seems, there appears to be no solving replay of the level around anywhere. So really, I'm just asking to confirm solvability of the level, as I think it's impossible due to how I haven't solved it yet. Of course, just because I can't solve it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2020, 03:28:27 pm »
Quote
So really, I'm just asking to confirm solvability of the level, as I think it's impossible due to how I haven't solved it yet. Of course, just because I can't solve it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Yeah, I asked nin10doadict for a replay back then as well, because I was pretty ashamed of not being able to solve a level that was supposedly inspired by myself. :oops: I had a solving replay once, but when running it again now, it also failed.

However, I just figured out the solution again for myself. My new replay for "Super Mecha Death Gators" is attached. ;)

PS: Back to the pack of this topic. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2020, 03:41:31 pm »
Yeah, I asked nin10doadict for a replay back then as well, because I was pretty ashamed of not being able to solve a level that was supposedly inspired by myself. :oops: I had a solving replay once, but when running it again now, it also failed.

However, I just figured out the solution again for myself. My new replay for "Super Mecha Death Gators" is attached. ;)

Ok, thanks. I'm still insisting on not peaking at your replay until I have solved it myself, though! I only watch replays after I have beaten the level first, as I prefer the satisfaction of figuring out the solution myself :P However, good to know that it is 100% possible and that I can stop going insane thinking it's not. I posted a while back in the Casualemmings level pack topic but didn't get any kind of response whether Perky 20 was possible.

Quote
PS: Back to the pack of this topic. :P

My bad. You're right, of course. Looking forward to giving LWT a playthrough whenever I get to it! ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2020, 10:01:17 pm »
The next update with the fixes to IchoTolot's backroutes from the Rockstar and Legend rank has been uploaded to the starting post! :D

No changes to Encore or Groupie yet.

Changelog (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2020, 04:29:58 pm »
Resolved everything relevant. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2020, 11:48:56 am »
Well, that was quick! ;) Thanks again for your persistence, IchoTolot!

IchoTolot's solutions (click to show/hide)

Maybe with the next update I can finally also fix something about the Encore and Groupie ranks.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 1219
  • #Team SliderFor20thNeoLemmixSkill
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2020, 05:31:52 pm »
Okay, here's a quick assessment of IchoTolot's solutions for the final two ranks:

For Encore
, as I was hoping for (but not really expecting, so this was still a pleasant surprise), there were pretty much no backroutes. This is most likely because the levels are taken from older packs, i.e. they have been out for ages, and any one of them that contained backroutes was broken and consequently fixed long ago. The only exception is maybe the level "Twilems", where IchoTolot managed to solve the level in a pretty straightforward way using Platformers, instead of the slightly more obscure intended solution. Maybe I can enforce this... maybe I can't.

Groupie, on the other hand, of course had many more backroutes, because IchoTolot was probably the first one to play the entire rank. Most other people, at least that's how it seemed to me, mainly focused on finding out which level had been dedicated to them, and then they "left". ;) Or, if they did play the entire rank in an effort to find out which levels were theirs, they didn't upload their replays except for those select few which they considered potentially dedicated to them.

Thus, there were quite a few Groupie levels that managed to completely enforce their intended tricks...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
...some that didn't enforce the intended signature trick, but still featured nice alternative solutions...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
...and some which utterly failed to enforce their intended tricks.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Killed by death" is the easiest fix of them all, because it had the most glaring backroute - glaring backroutes are usually easier to fix than complex alternative solutions.

IchoTolot's solution for "Kiwi nights in white satin" blew me away with some completely new trick I wasn't aware of at all :lem-mindblown: .

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2733
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2020, 05:54:37 pm »
Quote
IchoTolot's solution for "Kiwi nights in white satin" blew me away with some completely new trick I wasn't aware of at all :lem-mindblown: .

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, if I would have digged a pixel more to the left the digger would keep on going. But in this case he only had one pixel left and will therefore stop - and digging down comes before the "can I continue check". The steel is irrelevant here.

You can see this by simply digging down in such a way that a digger stops by only having 1 pixel left to dig on the sides (no steel needed!): He always still digs down the first instance of "1 pixel left" and stops AFTER that.

Be aware even without this dent trick I can backroue this with the "a bit more to the left" way as I have a leftover stacker to cancel the digger.

Moving the steel block a bit down (1 pixel would be enough here) would block any dents as then he stops before that will happen as the steel then is indeed relevant and gives the digger nothing to dig.