Author Topic: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]  (Read 6320 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« on: October 18, 2019, 11:07:16 pm »


One year, one month, and one day after its initial release, here's the New-Formats version of Lemmings World Tour at last - the largest pack currently available for NeoLemmix!
This remastered version has had all levels adapted that originally featured radiation or slowfreeze.
I still encourage anyone who's interested to try out the original version for Old Formats, which I will continue to maintain. It includes all levels the way they were originally intended to be!

A huge upside of the New-Formats version is the increased stability. The intense mixing of graphic sets in this pack led to more or less frequent crashes in Old Formats when loading up a level, requiring a simple but inconvenient restart of NeoLemmix 10.13. I have not seen this happen in the New-Formats version yet! :thumbsup:

The attached ZIP-Folder at the bottom of this post includes the custom success- and failure jingles, all sprite-set recolourings (including WillLem's Lemminas, which now appear on a couple of levels), as well as strato_generalmd, my modified version of the general tileset that used to exist in Old Formats. It contains some recolourings of various objects, Colorful Arty's rain and snow animations, as well as pre-placed builder staircases.
If you extract the folder in your core NeoLemmix folder, the styles and levels should automatically end up in their correct respective places.

This is the updated version of the graphic set and the pack for NeoLemmix 12.7.0.

My Instruments tileset is part of the official styles download now, as well as nin10doadict's cattrap.


God gave Rock 'n Roll to you*

The music pack can be found here.
It consists of my self-recorded rock/metal versions of all the standard Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings tunes, except for ONML 04 and the special graphics tracks (Beast, Menacing, and Awesome).
All instruments were played / recorded and all tracks mixed by myself.



For everyone new to this pack: Lemmings World Tour is based on the idea of a Lemmings band touring the world. Every main level is inspired by a song title, with the author line being used to credit the artist who originally performed the song (not necessarily the composer ;) ).

Hence, all the music is played with real instruments, including the success and failure jingles. The levels also depict as many different places in various countries across the globe. Thus, many level titles will refer to a song title and a geographical location at the same time. You will also usually find the flag of the respective country on each of those levels (examples see below).

This pack consists of a whopping 320 levels - 40 for each of the 8 ranks.
These ranks are named: Noisemaker, Amateur, Professional, Diva, Rockstar, Legend, Encore, and Groupie


It also ends with the largest level in existence - one that is too large to even be created with or properly displayed by the New-Formats editor, but was converted from Old-Formats directly, together with the entire pack.
It is strongly advised to switch off the high-quality minimap when playing the very last level (Groupie 40) - game fluency will improve drastically that way. ;)

With that out of the way, let's take a closer look at the ranks! ;)

NOISEMAKER
This rank is all about teaching you essential mechanics of the game and vital, but maybe somewhat obscure skill tricks - rather than the usual X-of-everything levels you might find on the lower ranks in other packs! Pay close attention to the pre-level texts, they can give you essential hints! ;) Also, beware the occasional troll level. There is a certain infamous, lemming-eating Octopus hiding on this rank, and one of the two levels shown below requires the lemmings to dive in a fountain. Sometimes, this pack will put visual aesthetics over strict, mechanical fairness, but it is the exception rather than the rule.
Noisemaker Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Vegas Lights

Grenade

AMATEUR
On these levels, the skills are grouped thematically (upward-moving, downward-moving, destructive, creative etc.), and the more advanced objects get introduced, such as pre-assigned skills and pre-placed lemmings, splitters, force fields, and teleporters. More landscape-like levels start occuring towards the end of the rank.
Amateur Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Shipping up to Boston

Georgia on my mind

PROFESSIONAL
The first levels of this rank are going to test what you've learned about the skills so far, requiring several of the previously-introduced tricks, but now without prior announcement! ;) Also be prepared to navigate some pretty huge cities, as you're playing in more and more important locations around the world.

Moskau, Moskau

Streets of London

DIVA
Now you can really start showing off your skills - but don't get too cocky yet! ;) There are still much harder songs coming...

Weiße Rosen aus Athen

Barcelona

ROCKSTAR
If you want to play on the big stage, you must master how to control the crowd. Can you hold them back when you have to, and make them move when you want them to?

Streets of Philadelphia

Cold Turkey

LEGEND
The songs on this rank will be remembered for all eternity. In other words: Probably just as long as solving these levels might take you! :P

Ganglem Style

The Phantom of the Opera

ENCORE
Here you can find levels from my preceding, Old-Formats packs (Paralems, Pit Lems, and Lemmicks) that also were named after song titles. The only one missing is "Turn this club around!" from Lemmicks. Without that one, there were exactly fourty of them, so I thought they would be a good fit here. They were not selected for their quality, though - but indeed mainly for their titles. ;) So definitely expect these to be easier than the previous ranks, but that might be a welcome relief after the hard stuff! ;) Also, due to the absence of gimmicks, the Lemmicks levels usually have completely different solutions compared to their first appearance.

We are the Lempions (Pit Lems)

All along the watchtower (Lemmicks)

GROUPIE
These levels were created by Colorful Strato and incendoadict: I identified the signature level-design features of most of the active content creators, and then built a level for each of them pretending I were them! ;) Some people have even had several levels dedicated to them - and no, the "author" line is not being used to spoil that for you. Which level was inspired by whom, that is something you'll have to discover for yourself! :P Many of these levels are still named after songs, in which case the author line will mention the performing artist, just like before. Other levels will have non-song names, and therefore no author line either.

Bon appetit!

Take a Byte

Have you taken a guess at which user inspired which Groupie level? ;) Then you can check whether you're correct right here:
Groupie rank level list (click to show/hide)

I hope the release of this pack to New Formats can bridge the gap between very easy and very hard packs a little! ;) It's currently rather difficult to find "intermediate" content. The radiation- and slowfreeze levels from Old Formats could be replicated in New Formats to varying degree - some solutions might be more interesting, some more dull than in Old Formats.

Finally, I have tested each level in the New-Formats version of this pack at least once, but with 320 levels in total, there's always a remaining chance that I've missed something that doesn't work as intended.
So please, report any issues you find, just like you would report any backroutes!
;)


And with that, all I have to say is:
The stage is yours! ;)


*The red Stratocaster from the Instruments tileset is a Wikimedia Commons picture created by Johan Förberg.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 09:39:09 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2019, 07:54:58 pm »
I will 100% take a look at this soon now. :)

Also: Is this already functional with the current stable release or does it require the 12.7 RC? Sorry if you already stated it and I overead it. ;P

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2019, 08:02:19 pm »
Thanks for the question, indeed I should clarify this! ;)

The current version is for 12.6.5.

I know Flopsy uploaded both a 12.6.5 and a 12.7 RC version of SEB Lems recently. I asked namida on how to best proceed with things, and the last thing he told me was that I could release it now and do the update once the stable version of 12.7 is in place.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2019, 05:03:41 pm »
First of all I still got some errors to report:

I have already tracked down the issues. Following tiles are missing (+ I put the affected levels next to it):

Tiles missing from a set. Here I got the set but the standard library where I got it from doesn't have these tiles. Would suggest replacing them with tiles from the standard library:

plom:psychmd:alt5     2 24, 5 06
plom:psychmd:alt7     1 39, 3 23

For this one gigalem_treemd exists, but not gigalem_treemdbright. Maybe use gigalem_treemd?

gigalem_treemdbright:window         2 02,
gigalem_treemdbright:exit                2 08, 2 09, 4 08
gigalem_treemdbright:trunk_02       4 13
gigalem_treemdbright:leaves_03     6 21

Tileset missing completely:

gronkling_angelisland:block_08    2 33

gronkling_chaosangel:block_23   5 05

I remember these 2 being removed by gronkling's request. So I would swap the tiles out for other ones.

cattrap:cattrap    3 17, 3 21, 5 26, 6 09, 6 33, 8 01, 8 07       

Include this in the download (maybe even in strato_standardmd) + submit to the standard library


I played the first rank (except 1 39 because of a missing tile) and groupie 40. I attached my solutions.

My thoughts:

I think the 1st rank has good levels, although even with the prelevel-texts it fails as an introduction/tutorial rank. The core here is that some of the levels just jump up several stages in difficulty compared to others. I had quite a lot of levels where I really needed like 5-15mins to get it and after that comes a level where I simply need to turn up the RR to 99. For comparison: I would put several of them easily in rank 2 or 3 of Reunion or something similar.

I would either simplyfy the following levels down to ONLY the lesson, or reduce entropy with pick-ups, or maybe make a rank below this called "tutorial" or so (the fat ones are quite extreme cases):

1 04, 1 05, 1 08, 1 10, 1 11, 1 15 (more to that later :devil:), 1 17, 1 19, 1 20, 1 21, 1 22, 1 26, 1 28, 1 35
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
, 1 38

Even if I acted a bit like a dummy in some of these, the fact that I easily did so proves that way less experienced players will most likely have much bigger problems.


Again these are not bad levels, in fact most of them are excellent! :thumbsup: But they are put together with actual tutorial levels (difficulty wise), where you just assign a handful of clear skills or just need to turn the RR up. They need to have lower entropy to be actual tutorials, be it with pick-ups, culling of non-tutorial elements, or a new rank.

1 15: This level should be burned or made fair! :devil:  Dissapearing lemmings because of invisible traps is just *insert mean word here*. It's also quite hard for the position.


For groupie 40:
Took me ~60 mins and a few tries to adapt some parts and reduce builder usage. The main difficulty here is the sheer size and needing to scoll slowly across the landscap a ton as even max zoom-out doesn't help. Nepster's Final Frustraition achived a way higher diffuculty with a much smaller size, less multitasking and less imidiate danger I must admit.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2019, 05:58:56 pm »
Quote
cattrap:cattrap    3 17, 3 21, 5 26, 6 09, 6 33, 8 01, 8 07       

Include this in the download (maybe even in strato_standardmd) + submit to the standard library

This would also need the name fixed first (no author prefix in the style name).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2019, 08:47:55 pm »
Tileset missing completely:

gronkling_angelisland:block_08    2 33

gronkling_chaosangel:block_23   5 05

I remember these 2 being removed by gronkling's request. So I would swap the tiles out for other ones.

The tilesets were renamed to sonic_angelisland and sonic_chaosangel. The blocks in question still exist.

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 08:51:26 pm »
Tileset missing completely:

gronkling_angelisland:block_08    2 33

gronkling_chaosangel:block_23   5 05

I remember these 2 being removed by gronkling's request. So I would swap the tiles out for other ones.

The tilesets were renamed to sonic_angelisland and sonic_chaosangel. The blocks in question still exist.

Thanks, Proxima! Then Strato you only would need to change the tileset name to these by editing the respective level text files.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 11:14:55 pm »
First of all, thanks a lot for the detailed feedback, IchoTolot! :thumbsup:

Regarding the missing graphic sets: I converted many of these after they had been abandoned by their original creators, and uploaded them to the respective threads. I could link to them, but then one would have to scroll through the posts to find them, which is why I believe it's quicker if I re-attach them here (in the starting post). I've added nin10doadict's name to the cattrap and fixed all the levels referring to it, so that they now refer to the new name.

You're right, though, I also should have sent them to Nessy for standard inclusion in the next download! ;) (EDIT: Done now.) The bright Tree tileset is the interim version of GigaLem's modified tree tileset. I had already built a bunch of levels with it when he released the final version, and thus, I kept using both in conjunction.

Quote
The tilesets were renamed to sonic_angelisland and sonic_chaosangel. The blocks in question still exist.

I know, I had already replaced them in most of the levels featuring those tilesets. As I feared, apparently some escaped me - glad it was only two! :D
Quote
plom:psychmd:alt5     2 24, 5 06
plom:psychmd:alt7     1 39, 3 23

This is a similar issue: These pieces still exist, but the naming scheme was changed slightly: Rather than alt1 through alt10, they are now named as alt_01 through alt_10. I had both in my plom_psychmd folder (i.e. alt1 and alt_01, and this for each of those ten pieces). Hence, this error didn't even pop up for me - there was no way for me to notice this on my PC, at least not just by playing the pack. I have now deleted the redundant pieces alt1 through alt10 from my plom_psychmd folder, and with the affected levels edited, they still display properly, so no tiles should have gone missing this way.

I think the reason for these graphic-set naming issues is that some of these remained unconverted for the longest time - then I converted them myself. This was the case for several of Gronkling's Sonic-based tilesets, as well as for several of the Lemmings-Plus mods by GigaLem and plom.

At some point, somebody else in the background also converted these tilesets, changing the names of certain pieces in the process, or splitting up tilesets, in the case of sonic_angelisland / sonic_chaosangel as well as sonic_cybertrack / sonic_technobase. Now, suddenly, it was hard for me to tell which were my own conversions, and which levels referred to these, and which were the official ones.

I uploaded all the conversions I had done to the appropriate threads - but I probably should have sent them to Nessy instead. ;) Whoever "also" converted these must have sent them straight to their official destination.

As you can tell from the fact that most of the levels featuring the former "Ancient" tileset didn't give you errors, I had indeed become aware of this change, and had already replaced the relevant references to the best of my memory.

Thanks a lot, IchoTolot, for taking the time to create the overview of the remaining missing ones! :thumbsup:

I have attached the updated version of the pack to the starting post. This only includes mechanical fixes so far, to make sure all levels can be played. Game-wise fixing (backroutes etc.) I'll address in a second step! ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 11:29:33 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2019, 12:21:50 am »
Here is a second post to respond to IchoTolot's comments on level design and difficulty. Your specific solutions to the individual levels from the Noisemaker rank (and Groupie 40) I'll address in a third post, once I've had time to watch them all ;) .

Generally speaking, the Noisemaker rank is not a standalone tutorial rank. I know you and I both have the ambition of our packs being able to stand on their own without requiring prior knowledge. However, I think we can both agree that any complete newbie, first-time Lemmings player will get crushed at latest at the beginning of rank two, no matter whether they try Lemmings Reunion, Lemmings United :evil: , or Lemmings World Tour.

Instead, Noisemaker is a tutorial rank for the intermediate player, which is why it doesn't teach the individual skills, or easy skill combinations, but instead starts diving into more complicated and obscure skill tricks early on. The pre-level texts explain them to aleviate the difficulty - they instruct the player to actively try these obscure tricks once, so that they can start actively looking for opportunities to execute these tricks on later levels (=without prior announcement, then).

However, with the abundance of features and skills NeoLemmix has, some easy things might require a reminder. In case of the "just turn up the release rate"-level, it's analogous to the one you did for the new Introduction pack: Technically, both are the easiest levels in their respective packs, but yet, they're not in the very first position. That's because release-rate-fiddling in general is more complicated than performing 2-4 easy skills in rather straightforward ways, so we want to introduce this concept as a whole a little later.

The difficulty of any individual level in this rank therefore largely depends on whether a given player knows this specific trick already or not.


Some tricks are more obscure than others, of course, and Noisemaker 08 ("Glide and Joy") indeed seems quite challenging for its position. I'd first resort to making the pre-level text a little more specific though, rather than moving levels around?

So far, some pre-level texts outright tell you about the trick, whereas others just allude to it, requiring the player to put 2 and 2 together. The latter also applies to Noisemaker 38 ("Rock, Paper, Scissors"), where the pre-level text just gives the hint about the shoulder height of Stoners being 6 pixels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
1 15: This level should be burned or made fair! :devil:  Dissapearing lemmings because of invisible traps is just *insert mean word here*. It's also quite hard for the position.

For everyone else: This is the "infamous, lemming-eating Octopus" I talked about in the starting post. :P

I've already apologised for it on both Arty's and Flopsy's Let's Play videos :D , but I don't see a way of fixing this level. One aesthetic feature - the underwater updraft - collides with another one here - devouring animals requiring hidden traps - and with the trigger areas overlapping, the result is "Dark fate of Atlantis" (Paralems, Demented 28) on steroids. Outright removing a Beatles classic from the pack doesn't seem justified either. At least by the time the player gets to the rerun, they already know about the octopus being hungry.

The upside of all the "unfair" elements being gathered in a single level is that they're also restricted to that specific one. So I guess it's just the go-to troll level of this pack, much like "Trust No 1" from Paralems. At the same time, it's also about as artistically iconic as the beloved "Death Titan" from Paralems.
Quote
For groupie 40:
Took me ~60 mins and a few tries to adapt some parts and reduce builder usage. The main difficulty here is the sheer size and needing to scoll slowly across the landscap a ton as even max zoom-out doesn't help. Nepster's Final Frustraition achived a way higher diffuculty with a much smaller size, less multitasking and less imidiate danger I must admit.

Absolutely! ;) As I said in the Groupie rank level list spoiler, this is merely my attempt at creating a Final-Frustration-like level. Final Frustration itself forces the player more elegantly to "waste" skills, especially the destructive ones, through a sequence of close-together structures, a bunch of tiny walls, each of which eats up a basher, miner, or digger. It also makes more use of the vertical dimension (without actually requiring vertical scrolling), and most of the crowds are contained from the beginning. The Grand Puzzle is not only much wider, but also several crowds walk to their death from the start, so they either need to be contained, or some serious multitasking is in order.

I will definitely try to create a level in a similar vein again (i.e. 10 or 20 of everything) in a much more condensed manner! ;)

As long as it ran smoothly on your PC (no lagging due to level size or similar), and took a pro player like you 60 minutes to figure out, for the time being I consider it a worthy closing to such a gargantuan pack. I guess that also goes to show that the final level should be attempted in a separate playing session all by itself :D . It's not something one can casually solve after having completed the penultimate level.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2019, 03:41:58 pm »
For the errors:

I still get 1 error: cattrap:catrap is missing on 6 09.

Also you seem to have forgotten to attach strato_generalmd now. I can't find it even looking into the zips.

For noisemaker:

I would still propose to flatten the quite harsh difficulty spikes a bit, as the difficulty itself can be quite over the place. Try to directly point at things in the text and not just vaguely hint at them. Turn some skills into pick-ups near intended positions as that lowers entropy by quite a bit. Even if it's not a tutorial, currently the difficulty is quite unexpectable.

Will continue playing soon. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2019, 09:51:18 pm »
Quote
I still get 1 error: cattrap:catrap is missing on 6 09.

Thanks for pointing this out! Indeed you mentioned it the first time already, but I must have overlooked it. :sorry: Seems like I only fixed "The lion sleeps tonight", but not "The eye of the tiger". Done now! ;)

Quote
Also you seem to have forgotten to attach strato_generalmd now. I can't find it even looking into the zips.

Oops, I must have accidentally unchecked that one as well when unchecking the box for the previous version of the pack. :-[ This time, I double-checked, thank you very much! ;)

Finally, I have to revisit this point:
Quote
1 15: This level should be burned or made fair! :devil:  Dissapearing lemmings because of invisible traps is just *insert mean word here*. It's also quite hard for the position.

I looked into the levels again, and indeed, the lemmings just disappeared without a trace, rather than actually being visible as they're getting killed by the traps. That of course destroys the entire visual appeal! ;) I had to re-position the updraft object so that it is in the background, but all the trap animations can still be seen. Specifically, the very first trap is a clam from the Beach tileset, and actually supposed to be completely visible - just like the crocodile trap on the left! ;)

So this was likely just a misunderstanding between Old and New Formats, as far as the correct order of objects is concerned. What I've never understood, both in Old and New Formats, is that the "to front" / "to back" feature works the other way round for objects as it does for terrain. Meaning: If you want an object in the very background (in this case: the updraft), you actually have to click "to front".

The fix has also been applied to the rerun, "Rolling in the deep". While some traps are indeed hidden behind the octopus, at least now they're all visible once they get activated! :evil:

So even this level is not supposed to be quite as troll-ish as it accidentally ended up in its first New-Formats iteration. Take a look at it again, now it works as it was supposed to in Old Formats! ;)

From a game-mechanics perspective, of course three of these five traps in total still count as hidden. From a flavour perspective, anyone who has played any of my previous packs knows all animals in my lemmings levels are hungry for meat... :evil:


On a happier note, though, regarding your solutions: It's so nice to finally be able to watch an entire rank worth of levels, played by an experienced player such as you, and not to see any backroutes! :thumbsup: Especially on harder levels which got backrouted by both Colorful Arty and Flopsy - specifically, "Glide and joy" (Noisemaker 08) and "Lemming, I hardly knew ya!" (Noisemaker 19).

Of course, I could get nit-picky here and there, but on all levels where you went with slightly alternative solutions, you still used the main idea each of these levels is supposed to teach. Also, given that even you already mentioned the difficulty of these Noisemaker levels, I see no necessity to tighten the skill limit even further - or doing so by enforcing the usage of every single skill provided. As long as the main idea has to be used, the player should definitely have some leeway on the first rank.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...and here are some for outside the spoiler:

Noisemaker 40, "Absolute beginners": This reminded me that not all of the talismans from Old Formats have been translated properly. Or, more specifically: On those levels which I manually reconverted by opening them in the editor, the talismans created from converting the entire pack got lost. In case of this level, I had to add a solid ceiling, which I always did in Old Formats, so that players of the Old-Formats version could no longer get confused about whether the ceiling was solid or deadly. Then, I reopened the level in the new editor, but of course, this doesn't copy talisman information, which was a property of the entire pack in Old Formats, rather than the individual level. This is supposed to have a talisman for only using destructive skills plus climbers. Of course, due to the individual-level conversion, it also lost the pre-level text telling the player about that.

Noisemaker 26, "Don't stop me now" also has a talisman for saving everyone - which you did. So simply run this replay again once the talisman is back! ;)

So I'll have to take a closer look again at which talismans were lost due to my individual-level conversion. I'll try to have all talismans back in the next update of the New-Formats version! :)

Just a question: Did you skip the first three levels? I didn't see any replays for those. 39 was missing because of the missing pieces from plom_psychmd, I know - these have been fixed now.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 10:09:36 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 10:12:23 pm »
Quote
What I've never understood, both in Old and New Formats, is that the "to front" / "to back" feature works the other way round for objects as it does for terrain. Meaning: If you want an object in the very background (in this case: the updraft), you actually have to click "to front".

The issue here is perhaps that "back" and "front" aren't the best terms, and instead, "start" / "end" (of the piece list) would be more accurate. Pieces are drawn starting with the first piece in the list, then the 2nd, and so on. An "eraser" piece thus erases what's been drawn up to that point (but not anything drawn after it), and a "no overwrite" piece will be drawn behind (instead of in front of) all existing pieces - however, crucially, this doesn't change when the piece is drawn, just how it's drawn. Thus, a No Overwrite piece at the end of the list, will be drawn behind everything else (because the only thing that could get drawn behind that is another No Overwrite piece even later in the list).

Now, combine that with that objects generally have "No Overwrite" selected by default, and you see why these buttons seem to work backwards for objects - but they're actually doing exactly what they're meant to do, they just have a poor choice of name. And that's probably something that we should discuss fixing.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2019, 12:25:58 pm »
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Just a question: Did you skip the first three levels? I didn't see any replays for those. 39 was missing because of the missing pieces from plom_psychmd, I know - these have been fixed now.

Checked my zip again and it has Noisemaker 1-3. Maybe you overlooked them ???

Regarding groupie 40: I think a 100% solution is possible, but let's say I don't want to scroll for ages to search deeper for that. ;)   In a more compact level of this type I would consider trying to find one.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2019, 04:57:09 pm »
Got noisemaker 39 here. :)

I thing about this level:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, the one cat level loads now! :)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2019, 09:03:14 pm »
Thanks, I also found and checked your replays for Noisemaker 1 through 3. Still everything as intended! :thumbsup:

Yeah, I know the fountain part of "Vegas Lights" is somewhat repetitive - that's why I mentioned it in the starting post. With just two fire traps, it wouldn't really look like a fountain anymore. Again, similarly to the octopus, this was an aesthetical choice, not a mechanical one.

This will be one of the main differences in Lemmings Open Air ;) , which has far fewer aesthetic ambitions and focuses more on a fair, mechanical challenge - similarly to Pit Lems, but with higher difficulty, and still connected by the music theme, as Lemmings World Tour.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 10:27:16 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2019, 10:14:38 pm »
Here is the next bunch. 20 more replays from rank 2.:)

More specific comments after I had time to finish the rank.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2019, 09:33:18 pm »
Thanks for the replays, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: The majority is still as intended. Though this is probably going to change, at the latest once you get past the point up to which Colorful Arty has played so far, which is the end of the Diva rank.

There seems to be something broken with the pickup skills from the GigaLem Tree-Mod tileset: Bomber pickup skills get incorrectly displayed as Stoner pickups, Cloner pickup skills are depicted as empty pickup skills (i.e. ones that have already been collected). Consequently, the Cloners cannot be collected, and thus, your replay of Amateur 13, "Ayo Technology" (as well as mine), fails.

This definitely wasn't the case when I tested the New-Formats version of this level. This replay in particular was just recently created, because "Ayo Technology" is a radiation level in the original version of the pack.

Maybe this has something to do with the removal of support for custom pickup skills? ;) Then again, I still have the stable 12.6.5 version, so this shouldn't be a problem, but for some reason, it is... maybe the official styles download got changed in this regard?

Apart from that, on your single solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's also a curious coincidence that you stopped at Amateur 20 for the time being, because Amateur 21 is the only level in the pack featuring an anti-splat pad. This is going to get re-introduced with the 12.7 update as well - during initial conversion, I had to replace the anti-splat pad with an updraft, but this breaks the solution.

As far as I know, conversion from Old-Formats levels to version 12.7 is still going to be possible? i.e. anti-splat pads are now going to be recognised again when opening an old level? That would make it easier to just re-convert the level, rather than manually setting everything back to the way it was - because I think I had to slightly adapt the skillset in order for the level to work in some way with the currently-installed updraft.

I also noticed I still have to re-add my Medieval background to Amateur 19, "Holding out for a hero".

EDIT: Background added. I also just made a quick little emergency fix to "The lion sleeps tonight" (Professional 21). It was one of the weakest levels in the pack so far, which I was just tired of. Now that the release rate has been maxed out and another cat trap added, it should be at least slightly more difficult. The fix is of course also coming to the Old-Formats version!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 11:43:47 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2019, 12:11:50 am »
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It's also a curious coincidence that you stopped at Amateur 20 for the time being, because Amateur 21 is the only level in the pack featuring an anti-splat pad. This is going to get re-introduced with the 12.7 update as well - during initial conversion, I had to replace the anti-splat pad with an updraft, but this breaks the solution.

Don't bother yourself reading too much into that. The case was: Hmmm, it's late, but I wanted to continue playing the pack today. Hmm, let's play half a rank.....;P

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2019, 02:08:29 pm »
Had a quick look after redownloading everything fresh now.

Some levels are not loading:

arty_underwater:invisible_updraft

1 15, 4 24

gigalem_treemd:o4

2 02, 2 08, 2 10, 4 08

gigalem_treemd:pickupleaf

2 13

These were the ones not loading in for me. :)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2019, 07:43:39 pm »
Thanks for reporting, but I don't get any of these errors. Are you already using the new version 12.7? ;) This one is still for 12.6.5.

I've noticed you posted a separate notification into the topic of every pack you're maintaining once you had cleansed the levels. Since I haven't done that yet, you can assume that LWT isn't updated for 12.7 yet.

Hopefully this doesn't involve a whole bunch of renamed pieces again... feels like I've just updated this pack to New Formats, and now, there's an even newer New Formats. I hope this will not be the case with every odd-number version (i.e. 12.9 being the next one) that gets released... :evil:

Currently, version 12.7 gives me the message that it cannot cleanse certain levels and will simply skip them - and among those are precisely those you listed.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 07:57:37 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2019, 08:09:32 pm »
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Thanks for reporting, but I don't get any of these errors. Are you already using the new version 12.7? ;) This one is still for 12.6.5.

Well, then disregard. ;)

I was using 12.7.

Most packs should not be affected on the playability side anyway with the new version. Only if they included some of the custom pick-ups problems could arise.

Quote
Hopefully this doesn't involve a whole bunch of renamed pieces again... feels like I've just updated this pack to New Formats, and now, there's an even newer New Formats. I hope this will not be the case with every odd-number version (i.e. 12.9 being the next one) that gets released...

The only thing that was failing in all my stuff was a custom pick-up skill object, that I replaced and in namida_circuit that duplicate not being automatically replaced. So as the standard library goes you should not have many problems.

It's only your extra stuff (especially that treebright tileset) that maybe could cause a problem. But I bet most of that would also be pick-up related and for that I would simply suggest "go with the default one" for now.

Also cleansing is not nessesary for getting it to work. It's more future related.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2019, 08:53:22 pm »
The problem is that I cannot even open these levels in the new editor to replace these pickups with default ones. I'd have to do that either in the 12.6.5 editor, or even further back in Old Formats, because the old editor still had the "replace object with another one from a different tileset" feature that kept the piece in exactly the same position.

In case of the failing underwater levels, however, I have no idea what this is about. As I had feared and just anounced in the post above, some objects have been renamed in that tileset, and even though I've replaced all text instances with the new names, the player still cannot cleanse these levels, and thus, the editor can't open them either.

Quote
It's only your extra stuff (especially that treebright tileset) that maybe could cause a problem.

I thought so, too, but actually, it doesn't cause more or fewer problems than the (not yet officially-included) Dex Halloween tileset, or than any other graphic set - as long as no custom pickups are involved, as you suspected. 8-)

In contrast, other graphic sets that are part of the official download, but still included custom pickup skills (like Plom's modification of the Psychedelic tileset) are a much bigger problem, because of course, those custom pickups aren't there either.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2019, 09:22:02 pm »
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The problem is that I cannot even open these levels in the new editor to replace these pickups with default ones. I'd have to do that either in the 12.6.5 editor, or even further back in Old Formats, because the old editor still had the "replace object with another one from a different tileset" feature that kept the piece in exactly the same position.

In case of the failing underwater levels, however, I have no idea what this is about. As I had feared and just anounced in the post above, some objects have been renamed in that tileset, and even though I've replaced all text instances with the new names, the player still cannot cleanse these levels, and thus, the editor can't open them either.

This should solve your problem:

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.msg78051#msg78051

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.msg78052#msg78052

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2019, 10:42:48 pm »
Nope, it doesn't - I've responded in the above-linked thread, so I think we can stop cross-posting ;) .

Basically, two objects - one background and one updraft object - have been removed from the arty_underwater tileset in the official styles download coming with version 12.7, while they were still present in the latest version of the styles folder I downloaded for 12.6.5.

Maybe someone just forgot to add them to the 12.7 styles download. Anyways, they've always been there, from Old Formats to well within the time period of New Formats, so I don't see a reason why they should be intentionally culled right now.

In the meantime, these levels should work fine for anyone continuing to play in version 12.6.5.

For 12.7, namida has implemented a code that replaces any instance of the gigalem_treemdbright tileset with the matching piece from gigalem_treemd. However, this breaks the respective levels, because the exit gets flushed down into the ground, since the exit objects are actually not identical between these two tilesets. The change also only applies to the new NeoLemmix player; the editor still displays the levels as gigalem_treemdbright, and only once you hit playtest, it turns to gigalem_treemd on the preview screen (and within the level itself, of course)...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 12:00:22 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2019, 12:00:10 am »
...therefore, the update I just uploaded (for version 12.7.0!) sets all instances of gigalem_treemdbright to regular gigalem_treemd. Since the player doesn't let anyone use the bright tileset anyway without custom editing of the alias file, I decided I could just as easily do this replacement myself; in fact, I had to, in order to make the exits work in the first place.

(Alternatively I would have had to spend my time merging the animation of the exit top with that of the bottom for the gigalem_treemdbright tileset as well, just to have the default programming of NeoLemmix 12.7 replace it with the regular Tree Mod exit anyway.)

The arty_underwater levels have been fixed.

The anti-splat pad on Amateur 21 has also been reintroduced. That's why I'm already uploading this now, just as a "hot fix", so that IchoTolot can not only continue playing in NeoLemmix 12.7., but also at just the right spot with this particular level featuring its intended solution again! ;)

Consequently, the missing talismans will then be added in the next, i.e. "proper" update.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 10:09:39 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2019, 01:29:39 pm »
Hi Strato! After seeing the description for the groupie level for Clam, I decided to put here some thoughts about the author, and more importantly to put here a small piece of the lemmingsforums history , back in the beginning of the decade. Personally I joined the forum in 2013. There were several authors whose packs made me solving custom packs , but Clam was the main one and he is still my favourite level designer. This post is not a critique for the groupie level . Unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to try the pack , very probably I will try it next month. This post is just an opportunity to put here some small pieces of the history of the forum.

Clam's main characteristic is that he liked small levels. I remember him saying that he liked to see what you can fit in one screen in terms of level size. Now for the exact quote I need to dig older threads but that's I remember him saying (another older user can correct me if I am wrong here). In any case he seemed fan of the idea that "less is more".

EDIT: This post originally was very large. I mentioned several things and small stories about challenge solutions, the challenge board, how it had influenced Clam , and the cstame packs. But it was way off topic for your thread , so I posted it instead in a new thread in the main lemmings board. Please don't forget to visit it , I am really looking forward for your opinion.

link for the new thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4514.0
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 03:02:33 pm by Turrican »
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2019, 09:36:05 pm »
Hi Turrican! Thanks for your detailed explanation on Clam's level building style! ;) If I ever create levels in the style of other content creators again, I'll surely come back to them! I've already designed some of the levels from the Groupie rank based more on explicit instructions than on my own observation (for example, Proxima told me his level building style pretty explicitly - thus, it was also easy for him to recognise when I put it into practice :D ).

There are a couple users for which I might have enough information about their level-building style to create yet another few levels in their fashion, plus also some further quotes or phrases they commonly use I could "poke fun at". :P

For Clam in particular, however, I sadly didn't make it very far into Clammings before getting stomped. Therefore, I acknowledge that my levels might not have encapsulated his typical style of making small levels - I only observed a frequent use of the Beach tileset and more vertical scrolling than any other pack (although I think Ski Sloping Lemmings by grams88 has taken the cake on that by now ;) ).

I had similar issues with creating the namida level, because I usually only got past the initial X-of-everything levels of any Lemmings Plus pack before the first real puzzles hit me out of nowhere. In his case, apparently I got pretty close merely by observation, rather than by own level execution. But then again, using one of namida's custom tilesets certainly helped to make it feel more authentic to him.

Anyways, I'm glad some people are actually taking the time to read the descriptions I've listed for the Groupie rank! :thumbsup:

In case anyone is interested, I also listed all the intended tricks that the Noisemaker and Amateur ranks are supposed to teach in their respective sections (both in the Old- and New-Formats thread).


Just to be on the safe side in case any of this level still can't enforce its intended trick with absolute certainty. Although I'm feeling pretty confident about them as of now, because so far, the replays I've received by IchoTolot (up to Amateur 20) were all pretty much intended solutions.


PS: Thanks for making me aware of this particular level again. ;) I have just recently created a level for Lemmings Open Air (currently in development) called "Rama Lema Ding Dong", no longer aware that I had already used that song title as a reference here in Lemmings World Tour, with just a slight variation. :-[ So I should probably go ahead and change the title for the Lemmings Open Air level. Because a double-pun ("Clam-a-Lem-a-Ding-Dong") is always better than just a single pun! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2019, 03:48:12 pm »
Finished Amateur. :)

Good levels in there. The difficulty is still a bit variable but not as much as before (For example: 2 15 too hard, 2 23 is a bit hard for the position, 2 31 waaaay too easy, 2 34 a bit too easy).

2 13 and 2 26 I would say is are prime examples that the pack is more enjoyable now if my guess is right that before there was radiation/slowfreeze in there. No way I would have enjoyed/wanted to play that with radiation/slowfreeze. :P

I should have tracked a few serious backroutes this time, but I await your call there. :devil:

My favorite level was 2 10! :thumbsup:   I also really enjoyed 2 32 and 2 35. :)

Level I did not really enjoy: 2 08 (I did expect the dogs but not the chocolate, also I would say it's too hard for the position), 2 40 (no way to find the exit without true physics mode here, also it's quite easy for the position)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2019, 05:23:26 pm »
Thanks a lot for both playing and your feedback, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: I'll respond to them one by one, and then address the replays in a spoiler.

Quote
2 15 too hard

Really? I think this is the first time I hear that. Maybe it's because of the direct succession after 2 14 ("Meet me halfway"), which was extremely difficult for Arty, so that 2 15 ("Ring, Ring!") seemed very easy in comparison. You can also lose comparatively many lemmings on this one, and usually people have some skills remaining at the end.

Quote
2 23 is a bit hard for the position

On this one ("Fields of gold") you had even more skills remaining, so just from watching the replay, it seemed like this particular one was even easier for you. Are you maybe referring to the level above or below? ???

I've mentioned them by name again, just to be able to clarify.

Quote
2 31 waaaay too easy

This one is obviously a joke level. ;) There is a talisman for saving everyone, though, which I'm going to re-add with the next update. Since you did save everyone, simply re-run your replay over that level (mass-replay check should also work to get all the talismans you've already collected without knowing).

Basically, the purpose of this level is showing how pointless I find 10-of-everything levels on lower ranks in general, because the skill supply is so generous that the player doesn't have anything to lose. And to stress that, I thought "Why not go all the way and make the save requirement zero?" :D

Quote
2 13 and 2 26 I would say is are prime examples that the pack is more enjoyable now if my guess is right that before there was radiation/slowfreeze in there. No way I would have enjoyed/wanted to play that with radiation/slowfreeze.

Indeed, 2 13 was a radiation level, so were 2 25 and 2 39, and 2 26 was a slowfreeze level. I've adapted the pre-level texts so that the player can usually tell.

On 2 13, you took some sort of a shortcut, but I don't really have to enforce any "intended" solutions on these levels where the object required for the actual intended solution is no longer present in the first place. ;)

On 2 25 and 2 26, however, you actually exactly replicated the intended solution to the best it can be done with the pickup skills in place of radiation and slowfreeze. :thumbsup:

Quote
My favorite level was 2 10!

That's nice to hear! :D Especially since that level is right on the borderline between puzzle- and execution difficulty. Even with the replay-write feature, as Arty showcased in his LP, it's still not as easy as it looks at first.

Quote
I also really enjoyed 2 32 and 2 35.

I'll address those in the spoiler. ;)
Quote
2 08 (I did expect the dogs but not the chocolate, also I would say it's too hard for the position)

Interesting, because Arty actually found it too easy for its position. He was only fine with it being as high as level 08 of the second rank because of the music ("Who let the dogs out?" goes with "How much is that doggie in the window?", obviously).

Regarding the trap: Take a good look at its position again and I doubt you'd want to refer to that as chocolate... :evil:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
2 40 (no way to find the exit without true physics mode here, also it's quite easy for the position)

Fair enough, I think this problem can occur anytime someone encounters a new graphic set for the first time. Even with familiar graphic sets, such as L2 Space, Nepster still mistook the airlock trap as the exit first when playing one of my Paralems levels. :D

Since this is not purposefully hidden information, I'm happy to spell it out for everyone: The acoustic guitar in my instruments tileset is always the exit. As such, it is an object and never solid.

On your single replays (click to show/hide)

In sum, most of your solutions were slight improvements over the intended ones. That's usually what gets turned into talismans, and as I said, some of these solutions actually are talisman solutions - they just haven't been re-added yet. ;)

On every level where you saved a considerable amount of skills, this actually happened via an observably higher level of knowledge than required by the player at this point - and I don't want to punish experienced players for their knowledge, or disable valid alternative approaches where they are appropriate, such as timing-based solutions when dealing with Zombies.

As such, there are no immediate backroute fixes required yet.
But I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time...

Good luck on the Professional rank! :thumbsup: Don't be confused if some levels are even slightly easier than those at the end of Amateur... this would be in line with the feedback I received from Arty, and doesn't necessarily mean those solutions are backroutes.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2019, 10:56:15 pm »
Quote
    2 23 is a bit hard for the position


On this one ("Fields of gold") you had even more skills remaining, so just from watching the replay, it seemed like this particular one was even easier for you. Are you maybe referring to the level above or below? ???

I've mentioned them by name again, just to be able to clarify.

No, it's exactly this one. I had a few skills left over, but it still took me the longest from rank 2.

Quote
Regarding the trap: Take a good look at its position again and I doubt you'd want to refer to that as chocolate...

I knew what it shall represent. ;) 

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2019, 04:00:27 pm »
Had a bit of time today, so I added the first 10 levels of the Professional rank to the replay collection. :)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2019, 09:14:10 am »
Thanks for the replays, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: You've found two backroutes; a major one on "Holy diver" (Professional 07), and a minor one on "Blocking all over the world" (Professional 08). The latter was originally part of Pit Lems, so that pack will also be affected. It has already had several backroute fixes, so I thought it would be proof by now... but apparently not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've already fixed the levels, but I haven't updated the pack yet; as announced before, I want to do that together with re-adding all the talismans. Hopefully I can get that done this week.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2019, 04:56:40 pm »
10 more levels solved today. Attached my replays. :)

This batch seemed easier than quite a bit of the rank 2 stuff to be honest.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2019, 10:49:23 pm »
Thanks for playing, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: This will give me the opportunity to fix even more stuff in one swoop in the next update.

It seems like a couple of levels in the Professional rank had the Millas sprites without me intending them to have them. For "Auld Lem Syne", they were quite fitting, given that they also have red hair! ;) But I'm going to reset them to the default sprites, now that I know.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm trying to upload the next fix as soon as possible; Lemmings Open Air took precedent during the last couple of days, because with that pack still being in development, any backroutes people find there are usually much more glaring, and therefore in more urgent need of fixing. ;)

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This batch seemed easier than quite a bit of the rank 2 stuff to be honest.

Yes, this is consistent with the feedback I've received from Colorful Arty and others. The main reason is that there are more open-ended levels here, especially the landscape-y ones. The few specific puzzles with a tight skill restriction, such as "Atte katte nuva", seem to enforce their solution pretty reliably, though. ;)

Also, the tricks taught on the first two ranks are supposed to prepare you for the entire pack. The third rank then requires some of these tricks without prior announcement... (like the one you used on "Block around the clock") - but of course not all of them, right out of the gate. ;)

As such, the sum of the difficulty in the Amateur rank definitely exceeds that of the Professional rank, because there's simply more to learn on Amateur, whereas Professional is the first rank where you're actually "free to play (all by yourself". :)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2019, 09:52:22 pm »
And as my preemptive christmas gift, here is the rest of the rank. ;P

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As such, the sum of the difficulty in the Amateur rank definitely exceeds that of the Professional rank, because there's simply more to learn on Amateur, whereas Professional is the first rank where you're actually "free to play (all by yourself".

Well, if the tutorial is harder than the levels that rely on the lessons learned after that, then those levels fail as tutorials. :8():

The ammount to learn should not matter for the rank if the lessons are easy enough. Some of the lessons are (even with the pretext) simply too hard to count as tutorials.

They are good levels, don't get me wrong, but fail as tutorials.


After the last bit of Professional was quite a cakewalk, levels like 3 26, 3 27 take the difficulty up by several ranks, while 3 40 is very easy again. So even with liking a lot of the levels here I must say the packs difficulty curve can be best described with this:



Maybe the next level is easy or hard the rank is not really a reliable hint at this here. ;P

For the level types:

I must say I like the non-landscape levels a lot more than the landscapes as often the puzzle falls a bit shorter there (that london bridge for example is waaaay too long than it has any right to be :evil:).
Often the style overshadows the solution and takes away from it and I play lemmings for the puzzles first and the style comes second. For me the style should add to the solution and try to not take away from it.

Again I like quite a lot of the solutions, but those landscape levels are currently the weak link here.

In terms of song references, I get about 50% of them. :P

Also those flagpoles..... I assumed them as solid first, then discovered they are non-solid and then found one in a level that was solid! :evil:   That pole should get an animation of some sort to make it clearer as an object or maybe move the flagpoles out of the active playing zone where they don't disrupt anything.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2019, 09:46:54 am »
Thanks, IchoTolot! :) I'll have a look at them this weekend, and then I'm simply going to fix the entire rank, along with the talismans.

Quote
Well, if the tutorial is harder than the levels that rely on the lessons learned after that, then those levels fail as tutorials. :8():

The ammount to learn should not matter for the rank if the lessons are easy enough. Some of the lessons are (even with the pretext) simply too hard to count as tutorials.

They are good levels, don't get me wrong, but fail as tutorials.

I think the problem is more rooted within the fact that, once a level gets more complicated, specific tricks that are part of the intended solution become more and more difficult to enforce. ;) For example, "Block around the clock" from the Professional rank is conceptually much more difficult than the levels that teach the tricks you're required to know for this level (namely, "Lemmy I hardly knew ya" and "Wonderwall"). However, due to the fact that all these elements are combined in a single level, more degrees of freedom are added to the solution, so that there is no longer jus one specific sequence of actions that works. I've already tried to enforce the intended solution on this level through the use of pickup skills, as well as toying around with on-terrain fire traps that ended up getting removed again, because they weren't fulfilling their purpose.

Quote
After the last bit of Professional was quite a cakewalk, levels like 3 26, 3 27 take the difficulty up by several ranks, while 3 40 is very easy again. So even with liking a lot of the levels here I must say the packs difficulty curve can be best described with this

Interesting to hear! Neither "Budapest" nor "Moskau, Moskau" looked particularly difficult to me when I watched Arty play them. :)

Quote
I must say I like the non-landscape levels a lot more than the landscapes as often the puzzle falls a bit shorter there (that london bridge for example is waaaay too long than it has any right to be :evil:).
Often the style overshadows the solution and takes away from it and I play lemmings for the puzzles first and the style comes second. For me the style should add to the solution and try to not take away from it.

This is the reason I'm creating Lemmings Open Air! ;) It will be pretty much only abstract level shapes, which are free to be shaped based entirely on the solution, i.e. "top-down" (starting with the solution, then creating the terrain around it).

Lemmings World Tour, in contrast, was designed "bottom-up", for the most part - i.e. starting with the terrain, then coming up with a solution that fits. Regarding the landscape levels as a group, I think I can at least say that each of the solutions for them is rather unique; there is not much repetition of tricks or similar going on between the various landscape levels. But they usually have a little more leeway than smaller, abstract levels where the skills are exactly accounted for.

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In terms of song references, I get about 50% of them.

That's quite a good share! ;) It's set up in a way that everyone should be able to get some of the references; nobody will get all or even just the majority of them.

You might start recognising more and more titles the higher you get, though, because the higher levels are based on more and more famous songs. On the lower ranks, meanwhile, I snuck in the occasional obscure reference that probably just I will understand, given the small size of our community. I was actually surprised anyone got the reference "Na zdorovje Lem" from Pit Lems (someone in the comments section of nin10doadict's LP). But that level is also included in LWT as part of the Encore rank.

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Also those flagpoles..... I assumed them as solid first, then discovered they are non-solid and then found one in a level that was solid! :evil:   That pole should get an animation of some sort to make it clearer as an object or maybe move the flagpoles out of the active playing zone where they don't disrupt anything.

The default one used is the L2 Circus flagpole (the white one), which is always an object. As such, whenever something else is used to hoist the flag, it's always solid, and usually so for a reason. ;) Hence, in those cases, the flagpoles can't actually be moved out of the playing area, because they are part of the solution.

I agree that a secondary animation for L2 Circus flagpole would be helpful in general, but I don't see how that's possible with the pole itself? The checkered flags from L2 Circus that are supposed to be attached to them are of course moving.

Thus, a part of me fears namida will at some point just merge the flag and the pole into one object, thereby breaking the flag animation on any LWT level that uses the L2 pole. :(

But fortunately for me, I think this is not possible - because the flag pole by itself must continue to exist in order to vary the length of the L2 Circus flags, as well. Simply using the "height" parameter for objects, like for water areas, won't work, because in that case, the entire object would just repeat itself, thereby putting a second waving flag under the first one.

My suggestion for a secondary animation for the L2 flag pole would therefore be a shimmer / reflection of some sort? This could go up or down the flag pole, making it look as if it were reflecting the sunlight.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2019, 01:27:55 pm »
The updated version is attached to the starting post. The last version had 20 downloads (still visible from the strato_generalmd tileset having the same number of downloads), so I take it that comparatively many people are playing this pack at the moment. Thank you all for your continued interest in the pack! :thumbsup:

Professional 07, 08, and 20 have had backroutes fixed, a couple other levels have had their sprites and/or backgrounds adapted. The latter changes are exclusive to the New-Formats version, because they were basically just about restoring these levels to the state they were in in the Old-Formats version. Meaning, the Old-Formats version already has these levels with the desired sprites and backgrounds. For example, the stars on the American flag on the level "Bay of Pigs" weren't displaying correctly in New Formats, this has been fixed, as well.

Also, all the talismans that are present in the Old-Formats version (10 in total) are now also included in New Formats! :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2020, 10:19:43 pm »
Solved the first 10 Diva levels. Still need to resolve the fixed ones as over the holidays I completely forgot the update. :P

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2020, 04:15:19 pm »
Alright, resolved the fixed levels and also solved further ahead to Diva 20. At the current state, the Barcelona level was the hardest for me so far. :)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2020, 10:32:27 am »
Thanks again, IchoTolot! :)

"Holy Diver" and "Blocking all over the world" still seem too easy. But I currently don't have any idea on how to fix that; specifically, on "Blocking all over the world", you created another shortcut with Bombers, and since Bombers don't care about one-way arrows in any direction, those are pretty much impossible to prevent. This is also true regarding your solution to "Don't cry for me, Argentina" on the Diva rank. Steel stops Bombers completely, one-way arrows don't stop them at all. So basically, the only way to prevent Bomber shortcuts is making the Bombers pickup skills. But even that isn't always feasible.

The majority of your solutions to the first 20 Diva levels, however, are either intended (levels 01, 05, 08, 10, 12, 16, 17, 18), or valid alternative solutions (02, 03, 06, 07, 09, 13, 14, 15, 19).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2020, 10:14:19 pm »
I uploaded a merely cosmetic update: My dark-skinned Lemmings are finally back! :thumbsup: They are now a recolouring scheme that is part of my strato_generalmd tileset.

This is what they look like (example level, not part of any pack):



Three levels have had their sprites changed to these lemmings: "Waka Waka" (Professional rank), "Diggas in Paris" (Diva rank), and "Africa" (Legend rank). I've also changed the sprites on "Barcelona" back to default, because they were accidentally still the Millas sprites.

You will have to re-download both strato_generalmd and the pack to make these changes visible. If you only re-download the styles, your versions of the levels will still point to the default-coloured sprites. If you only re-download the pack, I guess the sprites will fall back to default on those levels that now have strato_generalmd selected as their theme.

The colour of the one-way arrows on "Waka Waka" has also changed as a consequence, plus, the blue background from the Shadow tileset is actually not a background, but merely a picked colour. Hence, "Diggas in Paris", with the theme no longer being L2 Shadow, now has a slightly darker background (egypt sky).

The version of strato_generalmd in the development thread for Lemmings Open Air has also been renewed, so you can use either of these downloads; both will work. ;)

Finally, the zombies have had their skin set to completely white (colour code #ffffff), to make them more distinguishable from the standard zombie skin. This is also based on feedback I got from the first time when I shared these sprites.

Originally, the zombies were supposed to represent mummies, as these sprites were intended to go with the Egyptian style. Hence, their skin is brighter. But of course, they could also be evil colonial landowners... :evil: Interpret that as you wish; just know that this change was made mainly for game-mechanical reasons. ;)

I tried it out on one of the levels I'm developing for the L3D-inspired pack Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll - and since Zombie Blockers are only labelled as "Blocker" when hovering your mouse over them, it was really close to impossible to tell normal dark-skinned lemmings apart from zombies. Now, there should no longer be any confusion between the two.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 10:21:23 pm by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2020, 05:11:35 pm »
After playing  for LOTY and other stuff I played further on here and solved 10 more Diva levels. :)

I made me quite angry and frustrated, because you can't see when you actually went over/under trigger areas (or where they are in the first place). I guess you know which level I mean here. :devil:

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2020, 09:41:01 pm »
Yes, I know which level you mean ;) . But since this is a rerun, I can assure you everything is exactly in the same place as it was the first time. So I think this criticism is actually more relevant to Noisemaker 15. Sure, in this case it's different because there is no Disarmer, so you have to e.g. build over some traps. But that's what skill shadows are for - you can clearly distinguish a staircase that leads the lemming into a trap from one that goes over it, because the latter should show its full length as a skill shadow, whereas the former is shortened, going only as far as up to the trap trigger.

I'll have a look at your replays soon and see whether anything needs fixing! :thumbsup: Thanks for returning to playing this pack!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2020, 03:13:19 pm »
Finished Diva and as the last time I posted replays was over a month back I also sloved Legend 39&40 on top of it (I have skill left over though). :)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2020, 02:07:54 pm »
Thanks for the replays! :) A couple of leftover skills are no problem if the basic idea is that of the intended solution; this has also happened multiple times on Arty's LP.

Now you've caught up with that LP though, so everything from the Rockstar rank and onwards is uncharted territory! :thumbsup: Definitely expect a lot more backroutes on the last two ranks, since I haven't received any replays for those yet... ;)

Your solutions to the last two levels of the Legend rank are compeltely fine, though, and very close to the intended solutions.

In the second half of the Diva rank, there were only two backroutes, and only one major one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2020, 03:20:21 pm »
Solved 10 more levels today.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2020, 04:04:15 pm »
And another 10 so that Rockstar is half completed now.

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2020, 11:44:52 am »
Thanks, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: I'm relieved to say that there are barely any backroutes among these, and generally much fewer than I anticipated! Given that you seem to be the first person who plays the Rockstar levels (and also one of our most skilled level solvers), I believe that's a good sign!

Disclaimer: I generally don't consider a level backrouted if a) the player got close to the intended solution, but was just slightly more efficient in skill use than me, i.e. has a couple of leftover skills that don't really matter all too much in the grand scheme of things, or b) a player does find a completely different route than the intended one, but still uses all or almost all of the skills (that is what I call a valid alternative solution, because it still arose from and is subject to the same restrictions, in terms of terrain and skills provided, as the intended solution).

With this set of criteria (some may be stricter about enforcing their intended solutions), there are only two backroutes in the Rockstar rank: One minor one which could still also qualify as an alternative solution, if I didn't like the intended solution so much that I do feel the need to enforce it :P . That's on the level "Highway to Hell". Containing the crowd shouldn't be quite as easy as it was for you, but this is something a little steel can solve.

The second backroute, which is a more severe one, was on "Under bergets rot". The lemmings are still supposed to go through the mountain, not around it on the outside. Typical case of the Stoner being overpowered again. I still have to think about how I can fix this.

At the moment, you seem to be solving these levels faster than I can fix them, even if there are only few that I need to fix :-[ ... so prepare for one major update sometime soon, instead of several minor ones. I do want to add some further recoloured sprites to some of the geography levels, as well as expanding the pre-level hints on the Noisemaker rank a little to make them fulfil their purpose as tutorial levels for these tricks a little more (since this was one criticism you correctly brought up). Especially "Glide and joy" and "Rock, paper, scissors" can end up being unintentional roadblocks for newer players, because the hints the pre-level texts give about the tricks to be used here are too vague.

The pre-level texts are of course also going to be changed in the Old-Formats version (which I continue to maintain for the sake of the Radiation and Slowfreeze levels in their original form). The sprite recolouring, meanwhile, of course will only happen in New Formats.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2020, 09:42:07 pm »
The update has been uploaded to the starting post! Please make sure to download the entire folder again, since I've changed the sprites on several of the levels to include my various recolourings (English, Irish, Soviet, Asian, African, Indian etc.). The tileset strato_generalmd now also comes as part of that unified ZIP folder, so you have all wrapped nicely in one place!

I've also used the opportunity to place "disjointed" versions of the ONML Rock Lizard and Bubble Lightning traps in my strato_generalmd tileset (meaning just the lizard's head, without the eye as a secondary animation, and just the dot that creates the lightning). Those were required for the Groupie level "Not the incended solution", to make it look like the Old-Formats version again. Also generally a good thing to have for all my animal-trap needs! :P

Level-wise, the changes are the same as in the Old-Formats versions:

- two backroute fixes each on the Diva rank ("Wrecking ball" and "Total eclipse of the builders") and Rockstar rank ("Highway to Hell" and "Under bergets rot"), with "Under bergets rot" still being somewhat vulnerable (the intended solution, as it turned out to me, was too over-complicated to begin with, so that there will most likely always be an easier way out... :-[ )

- extended pre-level hints on "Glide and joy" and "Rock, paper, scissors" on the Noisemaker rank. The tricks are now actually explained, rather than just hinted at. Especially "Glide and joy" (Noisemaker 08) was probably an early roadblock for any new player who might have attempted this pack. I went to great lengths to enforce using that specific trick there, which raised the level's difficulty - but in the end, it's just supposed to teach that trick, so hopefully it will be a lot easier now! ;)

- steel added to Noisemaker 11 to prevent digging behind the hatch on the right (this is a minor loophole I found myself that allowed bypassing the central trick at the beginning of the level, even though it still had to be used again at the end of the level). Now the central trick is enforced in both level halves.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2020, 08:32:47 pm »
I resolved the levels. :)

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2020, 02:06:31 am »
ok now i'm on to finishings the replays for world tour that Ichotolot had minus all but 2 levels of legend and 1 level of groupie.  thx Ichotolot. I love watching these replays as well as your other packs(just finished doing dovelems and pimolems-all good).