Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]  (Read 42639 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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[NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: September 17, 2018, 04:36:14 PM »
The gargantuan is here.




Download the pack

Download the music
Download the styles folder
(You're going to need the styles folder since some graphic sets have had additional pieces added to them.)

:compat-new:

:compat-ver-10-13::compat-yes:

Lemmings World Tour features a massive 320 levels, divided evenly into eight ranks with 40 levels each:
Noisemaker, Amateur, Professional, Diva, Rockstar, Legend, Encore, and Groupie

The core premise is that of a musical band of lemmings touring the world.
Hence, all levels (with just a couple of rare exceptions) are based on song titles, especially songs that refer to specific geographical places.

The music consists entirely of real instrument versions of the classic Lemmings and Oh no! More Lemmings music.
All instruments were played, recorded, and mixed by myself.

So please credit me if you use these in your packs - this is handmade stuff, after all! :D

LWT also features a new graphic set called Instruments (see below), which I have released for editor usage in my graphic set thread. This graphic set is available for both Old and New Formats.

Disclaimer: This pack uses a lot of graphic set mixing for artistic purposes. The downside of this are occasional to regular crashes when loading up a level preview screen.
This is not going to harm your progress on the game or inside a given level in any way. Simply restart NeoLemmix and reselect the level via the level selection menu.


I tried arranging the levels in such an order that there shouldn't be too many heavy tileset mixing-levels in direct succession, but I couldn't get rid of the crashes completely.

There are also a couple of talismans to make some select levels from the first ranks a little more spicy.

On to the ranks!

Noisemaker
This rank is sort of a pre-rank to the main pack. Hence, it has Oh no! More Lemmings music playing throughout. Rather than doing standard introductory levels to the different skills and X-of-everything levels, like many other packs, you'll be taught a small number of skills in various combinations with each other. This way, the player can get familiar with a lot of the standard skill tricks in NeoLemmix. Expect predominantly small puzzles here, no huge any-way-you-want levels, and a lot of pre-level text screens.
Noisemaker Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Octopus's Garden

Vegas Lights


Amateur
This rank kicks off the rotation of the main lemmings tracks. The first levels group the different skills by type and direction of movement, the latter teach the player various advanced objects and how to interact with them. Level pre-texts are still pretty common here, but after that, you should be equipped with everything you need to know! :)
Amateur Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Georgia on my mind

God gave Rock 'n Roll to you


Professional
You're ready to visit more different locations in the world now. Additionally, there are levels focusing on one specific skill, but requiring all the tricks you can do with that particular one!

Streets of London

Queen of Chinatown


Diva
Some people can hit notes that leave the audience wondering how the heck they are doing this. And that is also a question you might ask yourself here, since the solutions become more and more whacky and obscure.

Don't cry for me, Argentina

My Lems will go on


Rockstar
Do you know how to command a crowd? Can you contain them when you have to, and make them move when you want them to?

Hollywood Hills

Berlin


Legend
The songs in here have gone down in history and will be remembered just as long as the people who played them!

Lemmingrad

The Phantom of the Opera



Encore

These are all levels from my preceding packs (Paralems, Pit Lems, and Lemmicks) that are also based on song titles. Conveniently, there were pretty much exactly 40 of them :) . Some have different solutions now, though, especially those from Lemmicks, due to the gimmicks they relied on being absent.

We are the Lempions

All along the watchtower


Groupie
Here you find levels by Colorful Strato and incendoadict :) : This is me making levels in the style of other forum members! I still tried to find appropriate song titles for most of them, but that rule isn't as strict here as on the main ranks. Can you guess who these two levels here are inspired by? ;)

Take a Byte

What does the fox say?

If you've made your guesses, here you find the solutions ;) :
Groupie rank level list (click to show/hide)

See the development thread for more level images and history on the creation of the pack!

Changes to the music pack may occur if I do encounter further noticeable timing issues or similar while listening to the tracks. Please report any you notice, too!

Finally, eventually the level "Turn this club around!" from Lemmicks might still be added to the Encore rank. I only noticed late in development that this one was also a song title, and so far I didn't know which of the others to take out instead.

After almost one year in the making, I really hope you are going to enjoy playing this pack as much as I did creating it! :)

Let the show begin! :party:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 12:10:04 AM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2018, 05:48:32 PM »
Solution to Groupie 3 "Waking up the neighbours". I'm going to guess this is the level inspired by my "style", since it uses a few features I've talked about:

* Disjoint union, with the parts not actually separated so a solution could involve interaction (though I found a solution that doesn't). This is probably what the title refers to.
* Some of the pieces seem to be inspired by specific original levels, which I also did in "Box Set" and "Metal City Mayhem".
* Skillset is highly patterened and contains unusable bombers. Platformers and Stackers are the only "new" skills used.
* No specific intended solution (I assume), but it's still not trivial and you have to be careful allocating skills among the sublevels.
* ...and of course, great use of my tileset 8-) Though I have a small critique: if it were actually me building it, each box would use only one colour, or closely related colours like the blue/cyan and red/orange boxes you have. I wouldn't mix green and orange in a single box, nor purple and cyan.

I'm looking forward to playing the rest of the pack, but I think the most fun part will be going through the rest of the Groupie rank and seeing how many authors I can identify :thumbsup:

Offline Flopsy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 07:54:49 PM »
Rank 4 Level 27 has an obtain loop error for me, every other level loaded for me (eventually!).

I started playing the first 4 levels in this pack and I thought the pack felt fresh and inspiring, it looks like a promising pack.

I'm interested in YouTube LPing this pack at some point in the future, not sure when yet.
The only intense issue I've got with this pack is the insane amount of error messages I got when checking every level in this pack to see if they load. I get that some levels are going to have this issue due to the amount of tilesets used.

Also I'd like to change the music for this pack for the LP, have I got your permission to do that Strato?


I'm going to change my LP format for this pack to the format I currently use for Lix Lemforum pack where if I cannot solve a level after a set amount of time, I will move onto the next level and then when I have a significant number of off screen solves, I will do a replay review video for them. This format seems to have worked for Lix and as a result I have got less angry with the pack overall.

I may or may not finish this pack, 320 levels is an insane size for a pack. I'll try and get as far as I can anyway.

Offline nin10doadict

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2018, 08:03:12 PM »
I have gotten "obtain terrain loop" errors as well. I think they're caused by the level containing pieces that are not in the tileset version the player has.
For instance, I get an error on Groupie 34 because it can't find piece 64 in the Fire tileset. That's because the version of said tileset that I have only has 58 terrain pieces in it.

Strato, did you add any pieces to your tilesets while making this pack? Perhaps making your styles folder part of the download could solve this type of error.

The pack is pretty fun so far. Even the early levels aren't trivial. Groupie 7 was... Fantastic. The preview text really did it. Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, you know? :D
I haven't played a huge number of other people's levels, so I don't know how many 'styles' I'll be able to pick out from that rank. I'll probably be getting stuck on some levels in this pack too, so expect videos in my "help me" topic at some point!

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2018, 10:23:39 PM »
Wow, you guys were quick to respond! :thumbsup: First and foremost:

Quote
Strato, did you add any pieces to your tilesets while making this pack? Perhaps making your styles folder part of the download could solve this type of error.

Yes, I did indeed, thanks for pointing this out! I added the teleporter to the brick tileset, and many of the custom elements that were created for the New Formats updates of Pillar, Fire, Marble etc. I thought including all styles in the pack file itself would be fine, since the instruments tileset is all new, and those levels seem to work even if you don't have the style yet.

Now you can get it as part of the styles folder in the starting post (I will release it separately in the graphic sets subforum, too). My styles folder also contains the unfinished Indian tileset I've been working on, but it doesn't actually appear in any of the levels.

Quote
Groupie 7 was... Fantastic. The preview text really did it. Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, you know? :D
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I actually tried to use each forum member's custom graphic sets on their respective level(s) whenever possible. It's just that your levels were created so early that, as far as I remember, your own graphic sets hadn't been released yet at that time ;) .

@Proxima:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
The only intense issue I've got with this pack is the insane amount of error messages I got when checking every level in this pack to see if they load. I get that some levels are going to have this issue due to the amount of tilesets used.

Well, if you jump through all the levels with the arrow keys or level selection menu to do such a test, obviously this means that NeoLemmix has to load a bunch of graphic sets in an even shorter amount of time than if you were playing any of the levels in between. So this is bound to cause more crashes. ;) I tested the general "fluency" of the pack by just letting replays run over each level, and then usually the number of crashes was tolerable. Some graphic sets simply have a longer loading time (especially GigaLem's Freedom Planet ones), but they do load up eventually. Instruments also takes a while to load, due to the higher resolution.

Quote
Also I'd like to change the music for this pack for the LP, have I got your permission to do that Strato?

Well, the music is indeed a huge part of what makes this pack somewhat unique - and a huge part of the work that went into it. But of course, it's your LPs and your channel, where you can do whatever you like! ;) I'm happy for all gameplay videos I get to see either way.

@Colorful Arty has also uttered interest in LPing this pack a while ago in the development thread, so perhaps he'll keep the original music :D . You could even split the pack up between several users, considering the enormous size! :)

Especially now that @nin10doadict has said he may post some videos of this as well, even if it's just for the sake of asking for advice ;) .


I'm happy the Groupie rank is being met with such immediate resonance! :D I'm definitely going to upload some kind of chart soon, so you can look up which levels are inspired by whom.

Some of you have several levels dedicated to them - this is nothing personal, it was just dependant on what type of inspiration I could get, and how many signature patterns I was able to identify from your packs ;) .
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 10:29:16 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2018, 11:45:03 PM »
Quote
Groupie 7 was... Fantastic. The preview text really did it. Gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, you know? :D
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I actually tried to use each forum member's custom graphic sets on their respective level(s) whenever possible. It's just that your levels were created so early that, as far as I remember, your own graphic sets hadn't been released yet at that time ;) .

Based on that (including the part in the spoiler tag), I can narrow mine down to being level 5 or 12... or since you say there may be more than one, possibly both, with 5 being based on my style in recent packs and 12 on older ones (LPI / II); the graphic sets also fit this.

I'm pretty sure I majorly backrouted both, but I can sort of see very namida-ish solutions on them.

If I'm right with these guesses, there are a few elements of my design style you missed, but overall you did a pretty good job. :)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 08:23:12 AM »
@namida
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2018, 09:03:55 PM »
I see. My solution is likely a backroute (I PM'd you the replay), so I can't comment on how namida-ish the intended solution is. But here's some feedback on the general design and how well it fits my style.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 09:17:55 PM »
Hi namida, thanks for pointing out the "cosmetics" of your level building style! :) I'll see to what extent I can implement them in the next version of the pack. For example, I thought if one-way arrows were put behind other terrain pieces, then there'd be a non-one-way gap in between which could be exploited for backroutes?

The level you linked that's supposed to be in the Tree style is a Psychedelic level, though ;) . Guess you picked the wrong image?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 12:30:46 AM »
340 levels!? :lem-mindblown:

Hooooly cow. That is a lot!

Regarding me LPing this pack; I am still interested for sure! However, due to the sheer length of the pack coupled with me only uploading 3 videos a week now, if I undergo this LP, it will take a LONG TIME to finish. I have a few options:

1) Continue my current upload schedule and start LPing this pack and uploading after my Ace Attorney series finishes; the series is almost done, so uploads could happen next week. The problem with this is I've already just about finished recording my next 3 LPs, so this will delay these considerably.
2) LP this simultaneously with my other main LP and upload a World Tour video once a week. I like this idea, but it means I'll be LPing World Tour for a really long time and people won't get frequent videos.
3) Go back to my old upload schedule of 6-7 videos a week and include World Tour along with the other game I LP. This means people get lots of content, but I have less free time.

Out of these options, I'm inclined to lean towards 3, as Lemmings videos take the least amount of time to edit, save, and upload BY FAR, so it really won't suck up a lot of my time.

One thing I want to know is how difficult this pack is. If it's comparable to Lemmicks in difficulty, this will be a tough challenge. If it's more similar to ParaLems or PitLems, that will be much more manageable. If it gets really difficult and I can only solve 1 level per video eventually, I may change to post-commentary videos after a while.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline nin10doadict

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 01:21:17 AM »
Well I've finished the first rank and from what I have seen so far, the difficulty is fairly high. Not as lethal as Lemmicks, but it's no cakewalk. Difficulty is also a bit sporadic; there's some pretty easy levels mixed in with hard ones. It kinda goes all over the place.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 11:46:45 AM »
Quote
340 levels!? :lem-mindblown:

Hooooly cow. That is a lot!

Then good thing it's only 320 :P ! (8 x 40)

Quote
Out of these options, I'm inclined to lean towards 3, as Lemmings videos take the least amount of time to edit, save, and upload BY FAR, so it really won't suck up a lot of my time.

That depends entirely on your time and schedule! ;) I doubt this pack is going to be something anyone plays through in one fell swoop, anyway.

Quote
One thing I want to know is how difficult this pack is.

See, that's pretty difficult for me as the creator to access :) . I can tell you that I'm certainly constantly aiming to make my levels more and more challenging - usually though, this results in many of the supposedly more complicated levels also having more backroutes (because a larger skillset equals greater degrees of freedom than the more constrained levels in the early ranks).

The first two ranks still give lots of hints through pre-level text screens. The main idea is that I won't require any obscure tricks from the player in the later ranks unless I've taught the player those tricks before.

The later levels often include stuff such as making destructive skills go through several obstacles - since that is kind of your specialty, those opportunities are probably going to be easier for you to spot ;) .

Quote
If it's comparable to Lemmicks in difficulty, this will be a tough challenge. If it's more similar to ParaLems or PitLems, that will be much more manageable.

Well, the Encore rank has levels from all three packs, so the difficulty will vary accordingly! :D

I hope it's somewhere in the middle, honestly. I tried to combine the themed nature of Paralems with the mechanical puzzly-ness of Pit Lems.

The difficulty of Lemmicks is somewhat odd - because it mainly arises from the different game physics. That included the solid level sides in the otherwise gimmick-less Basic rank, and goes on with every gimmick that is introduced. I don't think Lemmicks has harder puzzles than Pit Lems per se; it's just that it takes a lot of time to get used to all these different rules, especially for people who have more experience playing regular NeoLemmix levels. I for one have definitely put more time into creating levels than playing other levels - mainly because I get stuck on most packs relatively early :D .

Quote
Well I've finished the first rank and from what I have seen so far, the difficulty is fairly high. Not as lethal as Lemmicks, but it's no cakewalk. Difficulty is also a bit sporadic; there's some pretty easy levels mixed in with hard ones. It kinda goes all over the place.

Congratulations for completing the first rank, then! :) You were pretty fast in doing that!

Aside from difficulty being hard to assess for one's own levels, there are two other factors that are going to prevent this pack from having a linear difficulty curve:

1) Music matching - some levels just require certain tracks in the background (i.e. Alla turca for "Vienna", London Bridge for "Streets of London", etc.) in order to be believable ;) .
2) Graphic set mixing - I can't put too many "city" levels in direct succession to each other without causing frequent crashes.

But I also find it somewhat nice to have some "breather" levels in between. I don't want the early ranks to be cakewalks and the higher ranks to be an endless stream of frustration, especially considering how long every single rank is (40 levels) :) . I do admire it though when people manage to create such a very linear difficulty curve, like Arty in SubLems.

It's just that certain levels are also thematically tied to given rank names, such as the Diva rank featuring a lot of levels named after songs by female solo singers, Rockstar containing a lot of songs by rock and metal bands, and so on ;) . I therefore can't move them around as freely as levels in other packs. I can just make single levels more or less difficult to match their given position within a rank.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 09:30:37 AM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 09:52:22 PM »
Thanks, Flopsy, that was fast! :) I'm subscribed to you on YouTube anyway, so I'll notice; I just activated the bell now in addition :) .

So far, everything is as intended. The two skills you spared were just there to provide a bit of extra leeway (bashing into the terrain on Noisemaker 04, as you said you did in an earlier attempt, and for extra crowd control on Noisemaker 05).

I already said it beneath the video, but I'll say it here again, I like how you take the time to comment on the songs a little bit! ^^ That was actually one of the main purposes for making this pack - I wanted to include lots of references that many people have a chance of understanding.

That led to me having to include quite a lot of songs that I don't even particularly like myself, but that are at least somewhat famous... for better or for worse... :evil:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 10:24:15 PM »
My plan for LPing this pack will be very similar to Flopsy's. I'll be playing generally in order, but skipping levels that really stump me and saving them for later to keep a good pace with the pack. I will not change the music unless Youtube mutes my videos because of them. ;)

I hate leaving things unfinished, so I'll do my darndest to finish the pack, although I may take a break or two mid-LP due to the length; I don't want to get burned out.

My goal is to have my videos scheduled like this:

M/W/F: Main LP
T/Th: Lemmings World Tour

This way, I'll go up to 5 videos a week; I still have two days off of videos, and people can use the weekend to catch up on any videos they missed during the week. I'll likely start recording before the weekend! I can't wait! :D
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 08:47:24 AM »
Wow, now that's truly awesome, guys! :D I certainly don't remember any other packs that have been let's played simultaenously by several people (aside from contest / Level of the Year compilations, of course).

YouTube shouldn't mute any of this music - not more than they mute original Lemmings tracks, at least ;) , because that's all there is to it regarding the composition, it's just newly arranged and recorded.

The content ID system can identify covers of existing songs, as I noticed on my channel Metalvision Song Contest (but those videos were simply monetised by the original rights owners, then). But since you can listen to both the original tracks for all platforms and custom remakes, I don't see any reason why YouTube should have a problem with this.

That was actually my main motivation for recording these tracks, after nin10doadict had criticised Pit Lems for not having custom music :D.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Flopsy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2018, 09:31:03 PM »
I have cancelled my LP of this pack and subsequently pulled the Part 1 video of Lemmings World Tour.

I feel the quality of this pack severely deteriorated in Rank 2 Amateur and descended into a mass of troll levels. I had high hopes for this pack and was extremely let down by the severe drop in quality that happens about midway through Rank 2 so I decided to stop recording and cancel the LP.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh but apparently it's my day for telling things exactly as it is.

Best of luck to Arty with his LP, if you make it to the end of the pack, you'll get kudos from me for sure!

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2018, 09:31:12 AM »
Hi Flopsy,

I think you're falling into a similar trap that I fell into repeatedly with regard to Nepster Lems - I accused Nepster of having designed overly-precise solutions for given levels ("Jump in the Ring", "Final Frustration"), when in reality, I simply hadn't figured out the correct solution yet. (So, sorry to Nepster from me at this point! ;) )

First of all: All the levels you're talking about are there to teach the player about certain tricks - not to troll. That's why the pre-level text hints are there.

I'm going to make my comments visible for everyone, so as to prevent possible future frustration for other players - I'd rather have people know a bit about the solution than giving up entirely, so here we go:

Quote
Amateur 7 - why the hell is a Stoner bridge level like this going to be fun to play? I just ended up skipping over this one after a few minutes of trying to pass the vertical wall!

You do not have to create a long stairway of stoners all the way up to the vertical wall. You have to bomb through it at the bottom with a faller, then stone after the faller to make the drop survivable.

If you mean getting across the steel blocks at the bottom: That requires a total of one bomber and three stoners.

Have you played "Ten Story Stories and Tall Tales" from the Snack Pack? Or that vertical Sewer shaft level from CasuaLemmings? Those are levels with 50+ bombers or stoners. Amateur 7 is nothing.

The whole point of these early Amateur levels is to group skills by types and make solutions restricted around these (only upward-moving, only downward-moving, only creative, only destructive, only lethal, etc.) This is the same thing I've done in Pit Lems.

Quote
Amateur 13 - again, why is this radiation level going to be fun?

You got more than enough blockers to stop the radiation lemmings exactly at the point where you want them to stop. I use radiation because I want to limit the area where you can use bombers, compared to pickup skills which can be used anywhere in a level; I do not use it as a replacement for timed bombers.

Hence, there is nothing difficult execution-wise about this level. It is simply a radiation-based puzzle.

Pit Lems contained these as well, and two of them got nominated for level of the year. You ended up skipping over them, to my mind simply because they contained radiation. ;) Well, they can't have been so bad, because someone considered them worthy of nomination - it certainly wasn't me! :D I myself was surprised about that, and it encouraged me to create further fair puzzles involving radiation, because that's something comparatively unexplored.

Quote
Amateur 16 - I complained about this exact trick being used in SubLems, it caused a controversial topic at the time and I don't see why this level should be spared being mentioned this time.

I think your main issue with this level is probably the glider-stoner combination, since you mentioned before that you hate those ;) . The intended solution is to platform over the exit, then place several stoners directly on top of each other, creating a verticall wall the gliders inevitably bump against, no matter at which height they hit it, and turn around. Then you simply dig through the platform at the top over the exit, so that the floaters fall right into the exit and the gliders fall towards said wall.

Quote
All these levels in a small space of time was enough to eventually kill the LP, the last straw was seeing that Amateur 28 was called Zombie and I immediately quit the pack at this point.

Well, if you don't like Zombie levels, that's your right, but I don't see how this is a fault of the pack. Paralems was the only pack of mine that made extensive use of Zombies. All the others just use them sporadically.

Quote
and it looks like you spent too much time making the levels pretty and not enough time making quality solutions.

I think you missed the point of this pack. If you want something exclusively mechanically challenging, try Pit Lems (or Lemmicks ;P ).

I said right from the getgo that Lemmings World Tour would be inspired by Arty's level building style, meaning "optics first".

If some of the "pretty" levels have dull solutions in your opinion, those may be backroutes?

Or does the difficulty simply not increase fast enough for you (since you suggested you could tolerate simplistic levels on Noisemaker but then expected a steeper increase)?

Because for Pit Lems, I basically got the feedback from nin10doadict that it got difficult too fast. So of course, with 240 levels in the main ranks, I can afford to have difficulty increase as gradually as possible.

Quote
But the fact that you've just thrown almost everything in and not even had this pack tested just shows that you probably wanted to throw out a big pack just for the sake of it.

The Encore levels are here because they are also song titles, and because many of them have been backroute-fixed since Paralems / Pit Lems / Lemmicks. Usually though, post-backroute-fixed levels don't get that much attention anymore, so that's why I wanted to showcase them again in their "fixed" versions ;) .

The pack became this big because there were a lot of places I wanted to visit with levels. And even though I feared some of the pretty levels would turn out to have dull solutions, most of them actually ended up having pretty unique ones. Again, some of them may still have backroutes, you're never entirely safe from that.

Quote
Also I may be on the way out of this forum soon because apparently no one likes my easily angered temper anymore.

That's sad to hear ;) .

For me personally, I can say I don't take it personally when people rage over my levels because they can't find the solution. I can also assure you at the same time that I don't actively try to make levels harder than necessary, least of all by intentionally introducing execution difficulty - I've learned my lesson from Paralems quickly in that regard ;) . If unintended execution trouble arises, such as in Lemmicks's "Do not fear", I get rid of that as fast as I can. I try my best to be like a Dungeon Master in D&D when it comes to level design; I want to challenge the player, I don't want to beat them.



Replays for all mentioned levels are attached.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:05:06 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Post-level jingles & Groupie rank
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 08:23:37 PM »
Just a question to you all, do the custom post-level jingles for success and failure work?

I've changed these to be real-instrument versions, too, so that they go along with the rest of the music. The victory jingle is a kind of fanfare played by the entire band; the failure jingle is a solitary guitar playing four sad chromatic single notes with a wah-wah :D .

To my knowledge, these should already be part of the pack (included in "files"). Therefore, I didn't include them again in the music download. I didn't hear them in Flopsy's or Arty's LP though, so I'm not sure if the files are missing or if Flopsy and Arty merely both have post-level jingles disabled by default ;) .


Apart from that, here is the promised spoiler for the "Who's who?" of the Groupie rank :) . I'll also put it into the starting post, so that it can be found more easily.

Note that taking a look at these before having made an educated guess at who the level is inspired by is like watching a replay before having attempted a level yourself! :P

(But no, seriously, these spoilers will obviously also include at least partial spoilers for the level solutions themselves, so you might not want to look at all of them out of sheer curiosity ;) ).

Groupie rank level list (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 07:36:19 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2018, 04:59:41 PM »
Okay, I've tried it on my brother's PC, the post level jingles worked, even though I hadn't given these files to him separately (only the music tracks for the levels).

I've uploaded a first small update of the pack (check the link in the starting post), with three backroutes found by namida in the Groupie rank fixed :) . I had to alter the intended solution on two of them, but that's fine, since in one of the two cases, the trick required by the intended solution isn't actually a signature trademark of the respective user.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also made some cosmetic changes to Groupie 12 that do not affect the solution at all...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2018, 05:41:24 PM »
Next update! Thanks to Flopsy's mass upload of LP videos today, I was able to fix a couple of backroutes in the Noisemaker rank. Most of them weren't too dramatic, but it's always better get rid of them as early as possible :) .

Also, some of the Talismans didn't have their criteria set properly, these are fixed now as well.

The link is still the one in the starting post (or my signature).

Changelog (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 09:12:50 PM »
I've finished watching Flopsy's LP, so here are some summarising thoughts. I've also attached the replays of other levels Flopsy struggled with (=skipped or genuinely couldn't solve).

Again, thanks a lot for playing this far, Flopsy, and for sharing all these videos so quickly! :thumbsup: The fact that you "only" got to 3/4 of rank two can easily disguise that you still played an entire 68 levels of this thing, which is more than some other packs have in total. (I'm still stuck somewhere on rank three of SEB Lems, just F.Y.I. :evil: ...)

On Flopsy's LP (click to show/hide)

General conclusion for all players:

- If it's way too easy, and you manage to save a lot of skills, it's probably a backroute ;) .
- If it's too easy, but uses exactly all the skills, you probably already know the trick the level was supposed to teach. Good for you!
- If it's extremely fiddly and therefore annoying to pull off, while it doesn't necessarily have to be a backroute, it's certainly not the main intended solution. So in those cases, you may want to consider going back to the drawing board. ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 09:37:03 AM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour - UPDATE
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2018, 04:57:31 PM »
Next major, major update! :) Can't believe it's only been 10 days, but I thought I better get this done early.

Check the link in the starting post, or get it from here.

This barely has anything to do with Arty's LP; most of what he and Flopsy did in the late Noisemaker rank was as intended, and in Flopsy's LP of the Amateur rank, there were hardly any backroutes at all.

But I've found some further backroutes myself in the later ranks - levels which will take some time until Arty gets there ;) - by actively trying to break the levels. Everything I've found in that regard has been removed now :) .

One level in particular got an emergency treatment with buttons. I think this may also be the way to finally fix the ever-broken level "Crossing the Nile" from Pit Lems.

Changelog (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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World Tour: New update!
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2018, 05:19:41 PM »
The next update (10-19-2018) brings a couple of fixes to the Amateur rank (since there weren't any in the last update), as well as a couple of new talismans! :tal-bronze::tal-silver::tal-gold:

These were made from solutions Flopsy and Arty found that were superior to mine, so thanks, you two, for finding these!

The link in the starting post works, too, as usual ;) .

Changelog (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 07:10:10 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2018, 07:09:35 PM »
I felt the change to Amateur 14 was important enough to get it done right away, so I've changed the update date from yesterday to today, only changing that single level and adding the "save everyone"-talisman.

To be fair though, this is one of the most difficult talismans in the game now, so blame Arty for finding it :P !
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2018, 12:04:10 AM »
Just a general note to everyone: Don't feel rushed to "re-solve" levels where a backroute fix on my part might cause your replays not to work anymore. ;) Your savegame file still remembers the level as solved, and that is also my philosophy: Anyone who solved a level in the state it was in when they first attempted it has beaten me at some point in time - be it entirely through own skill or partly because of my own stupidity :evil: !

I simply advise people to update whenever a new version comes out and then continue playing where they left off, just in that new version. That raises the chance of the levels still following being more backroute-proof, and thereby more enjoyable! No need though to go back and constantly recheck whether everything is still working!  ;) With 40 levels per rank, that's just nuts!

I noticed only recently that a lot of my old SEB Lems replays were broken, and I resolved those levels now, but I still focus mainly on getting ahead in the pack.

I'm constantly refining Lemmings World Tour, like IchoTolot has been fixing PimoLems right after each of Nessy's streams. Given the unusually large size of the pack, I didn't want to wait until the end of an LP before I started fixing the first backroutes and thereby leave all those levels "vulnerable" in the meantime.

I also guess I'm going to see some familiar backroutes again in the second half of the Amateur rank of Arty's LP - hopefully only stuff I have fixed in the meantime already. But that is only going to underline how badly these fixes were needed! :evil: Apparently there's even going to be one episde where all five levels appearing in that video are broken, so... bring it on! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 07:15:39 PM »
Hello, did you copy the track so it played twice or did you play everything twice yourself? If the first case is true, why did you copy it at all, and not stick with one loop?

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2018, 11:17:24 PM »
Oh, I played everything a lot more often than twice, I just combined the best takes! :D

So no, it's not like you're hearing the same thing twice ;) ; on a lot of tracks, some things change in the second half. On ONML 01, I alter the guitar melody slightly, ONML 02 features a slightly different solo, the Can-Can is played higher the second time, so is Rondo Alla Turca, the second half of Smile if you love Lemmings contains the guitar solo throw-ins, and so on ;) .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 10:36:41 AM »
Thanks! I'm putting the music on my phone, and when I do video game music, I fade out after the first loop. But I thought here the second part might actually be different... I just couldn't tell for sure anywhere. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour - Update!
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2019, 11:54:49 AM »
At last, here's the update with Arty's backroutes up to the end of the Diva rank fixed!

Click me or the link in the starting post

I haven't received any further replays - so I guess people either stopped playing because it's Old Formats, or because Arty's LP was so entertaining to watch that they'd rather watch that instead ^^, and now they already know all the solutions.

Well, not anymore, because now most of the backroutes that Arty found shouldn't be possible anymore! :P

I think there were like 1 or 2 levels with so whacky intended solutions that I couldn't yet figure out who to enforce them, and so I just didn't bother. But the majority should be cleaned up now - even though that usually only means "time to look for a new backroute to the same level"... :evil:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2019, 09:01:43 AM »
Here's a little update regarding the conversion of Lemmings World Tour to New Formats:

I have converted the entire pack using the pack converter and am now in the process of fixing the single levels (Noisemaker, Amateur, and Professional are done so far).

This mainly refers to inserting the proper backgrounds again, as they got lost during the conversion, despite being available in both formats (I reported this as a bug). Fortunately, I don't have to do this for every single level - in that case, I probably would have waited for a bug fix first - but only for those that don't have a monochrome background. For those levels which do, including everything that simply has a mono-black background, no changes are necessary in that regard.

The other main thing is adding ceilings in the cases where it's relevant, because the deadly ceiling in New Formats obviously destroyed some solutions.
To avoid confusion, I'm doing this in the Old-Formats levels and then re-convert those single levels by opening them up in the New Formats editor.

That way, even if you (continue to) play the Old-Formats version, you won't get confused about whether the ceiling is solid or not, because in all cases where it's relevant, there's terrain covering the ceiling now, and this will be the case in both versions.

It may affect the timing of the solutions in your Old-Formats replays, though, because I always placed the ceiling in such a way that it's visible to the player, obviously, therefore, a lemming who hit the level border before is now going to drop down 1-2 frames earlier.



Finally, there's the elephant in the room, which are the radiation- and slowfreeze levels.

The biggest challenge will be adapting those levels where zombies had to walk into radiation / slowfreeze. Those are "Only time" from the Diva rank, "Blowing in the wind" from the legend rank, and "All you zombies" from the Groupie rank. Since zombies can't collect pickup skills like they used to do as "classic zombies", nor do we have the instant-pickup-skill gimmick anymore, there's no way of having specific spots in the landscape automatically give skills to zombies. The worst case would be to cut these levels entirely. There will not be any dedicated replacement levels that would become exclusive to New Formats; LWT was created for Old Formats, and the New-Formats version is merely trying to be as accurate of a representation of this pack as possible.

For regular radiation / slowfreeze levels, in some cases, there was an easy enough fix by simply replacing radiation and/or blocker pickup skills with exploder pickup skills (e.g. Amateur 13, "Ayo Technology", and Amateur 25, "Radioactive").

In other cases, it's more difficult, because the skill panel was already full with radiation / slowfreeze in place.

For example, I can re-create the solution of Amateur 26, "Like ice in the sunshine", easily by replacing the slowfreeze with a stoner pickup skill - the only problem is: The level was a 1-of-everything level before, and there's no space (yet) on the skill panel to add a 9th skill.

This also affects Amateur 39, "Japan", which is one of my favourite levels in the pack, and was praised by Arty as one of the few radiation levels he actually enjoyed ;) .

Thus, I think it's safe to say the New Formats conversion of LWT won't be released before the NeoLemmix update enabling the level creator to have up to 10 different skills.

This is kind of the ideal redemption for the removal of radiation and slowfreeze at this point, because while the Shimmier was what gave me enough of an incentive to transition to New Formats completely as far as creation of new levels is concerned, I didn't want to include any Shimmier levels in LWT at such a late stage, because that would have meant casually introducing the skill in the middle of a rank while everything else has had proper introduction levels.

Simply having more skills however is nothing that needs a lot of additional explanation. I wonder how many players would even notice if I didn't bring it up on the level preview screen! :D


Some of the aesthetics will change as well, few of them because I want them to, but some objects (certain exits, teleporters, differently shaded terrain pieces etc.) and backgrounds that I used are simply not available anymore in New Formats (as of now, at least). Since we're not supposed to add stuff to other people's tilesets, those levels can only be given their original look again if those pieces are re-added. To be clear, this is nothing that will make me put a New-Formats release on halt, but I still hope I can restore the original look of the pack again eventually.

A huge upside of the New Formats version, though: As namida and Nepster told me during the early days of New-Formats development, the graphic-set performance has improved immensely! The worst part was converting all the graphic sets that had been missing or incomplete. But so far, I haven't experienced any crashes related to heavy graphic-set mixing yet! :thumbsup:


Nevertheless, since LWT was created for Old Formats, I'm going to continue maintaining it for both Old- and New Formats! :)

This is likely going to be the only pack for which any content creator is doing this, but for me it simply means I do any backroute fixes in the Old-Formats version first and then re-convert that single level by opening it in the New-Formats editor.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2019, 09:30:38 PM »
I've updated the Old-Formats version so that it features all the changes that are going to occur in the New-Formats version (except for the Radiation and Slowfreeze levels, of course, which are always going to remain intact in Old Formats! :thumbsup: ).

One level had a cosmetic change - I've finally decided to go ahead and re-colour the flower traps from the L2 Highland tileset to match the title of this level / song (="White Roses from Athens"):


Weiße Rosen aus Athen

These white re-coloured flower traps are now part of my general tileset (the one that features Arty's rain and snow objects, as well as the blue fire traps in Old Formats).
Thus, when you re-download the updated pack from the starting post, also re-download the styles folder!
You only need to extract the "general.dat" graphic set into your 10.13 styles folder, though, nothing else has changed.

I've also converted the white flower trap to New Formats right away, where it will be going under my strato_generalmd tileset. A former version of it is already available for the Lemmings Open Air test levels; the one including the white flowers will be uploaded together with the New-Formats release of Lemmings World Tour.

That said, the New-Formats release is indeed ready for release! ;) I'm just not sure whether I should wait until the stable version 12.7? That's what I understood from namida.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2019, 10:34:31 PM »
Quote
I'm just not sure whether I should wait until the stable version 12.7? That's what I understood from namida.

If your pack works on V12.6.5, you can release it now. If it only works on V12.7 (eg. you've run it through the "Cleanse Levels" or are using V12.7-exclusive features like antisplat pads, etc), please wait until the V12.7 stable release, although a private release to testers should be fine.

(Of course, this is purely advisory - I can't stop you from releasing a V12.7.0-RC version of the pack if you want, I just advise against it, especially if you don't plan to double-check everything against the stable version as soon as possible after its release.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2019, 07:46:32 AM »
Great, thanks for the explanation, namida! :thumbsup:

You guys can expect the release this evening (Central European Time) - I have all the levels in my Dropbox already, but not the updated strato_generalmd tileset with the white flowers yet. I might also alter the logo slightly (call it "Lemmings World Tour Remastered" or so :D ), to indicate that some levels indeed differ from their Old-Formats versions and have different solutions now.

Weekends seem like an appropriate time to release packs anyway :D , that means more people have the chance to try them right away! ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2019, 11:37:46 PM »
Professional 21, "The lion sleeps tonight" has received an emergency fix to finally make it slightly more difficult (maximum release rate plus an additional cat trap).

It's still quite easy for its position, but now you have to at least slightly think about which skill goes where, and practice the ever so slightest form of flow control. I hope it's really just enough to move it from a completely pathetic level to something that can at least be considered "somewhat nice". :-[

Download links are still the same.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2019, 01:22:31 PM »
A small update containing backroute fixes to Professional 07, "Holy diver", Professional 08, "Blocking all over the world", and Professional 20, "Rome". Link is still the one in the starting post.

Thanks to IchoTolot for finding these! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2020, 09:16:11 PM »
The next update at last! Fixes to four levels for which IchoTolot found backroutes - two each on the Diva rank ("Wrecking ball" and "Total eclipse of the builders") and the Rockstar rank ("Highway to Hell" and "Under bergets rot"). "Under bergets rot" is hard to fix though, and I still believe the intended solution isn't quite being enforced - probably another case of the intended solution being unnecessarily complicated, so that it can always be bypassed by an easier solution...

I've also expanded the pre-level hints on the Noisemaker levels "Glide and joy" (08) and "Rock, paper, scissors" (38), since I felt they weren't providing enough of a help to explain the tricks they are supposed to teach.

Finally, I discovered a minor way on Noisemaker 11 myself that allows to avoid using the central trick during the first part of the level (it still had to be used on the second part of the level). I've decided to go ahead and fix this with a bit of steel, so that it's not possible to dig behind the hatch on the right.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 09:40:59 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 09:52:50 PM »
Another update is here! :) The link in the starting post is still the same.

This update brings backroute fixes to the Rockstar and Legend rank. No changes to Encore and Groupie (yet).

Changelog (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2020, 11:15:19 PM »
Just started playing this pack last night. I'm essentially using this time in between the contest and testing your LOA pack to catch up on your flagship pack. I just finished the Noisemaker rank, so here are my complete set of replays for the rank and my feedback. Also, I'm well aware that you still need to release an update for the Encore and Groupie ranks. Honestly, you'll probably get that done way before I even get to those ranks.

Feedback on the Noisemaker Rank

Since this is yet again another first rank of tutorial levels, instead of feedback on every individual level (honestly, 40 is a lot in one rank, and I can't even begin to phantom how very long it will take me to write feedback on all 40 levels for each rank, especially the later ones) like I did with Paralems and Pit Lems, I'm just going to focus on a select few.

Being another first rank that's just tutorials, I'll be honest, and that is I was pretty bored with the rank, since I'm pretty much familiar with all of the tricks mentioned in the pre-text associated with each level. That probably means I probably could had skipped the Noisemaker rank entirely, but when it comes to playing packs I play all ranks anyway, so endure it I must. To be fair, this rank isn't the main meat and the real deal of the pack, since I believe the exciting stuff is in the Amateur rank and beyond. However, I believe I also gathered from the OP of this topic that the Amateur rank is similar to the Noisemaker with tutorial style levels, with the first few levels of the Amateur rank I have played so far being quite similar to the first few of Pit Lems in that they're being grouped by type of skills: constructive, destructive, horizontal movement, etc. up until a little over the halfway point of the rank. So, I think with this knowledge I will likely be bored even more until I'm past all of them in the Amateur rank.

Another thing about the Noisemaker levels is that they're also quite challenging. It's like you said, these aren't your very basic skill tutorial levels, there's also a real puzzle on top of introducing the skill mechanics rather than just their basic function. Even the first level already starts off a bit difficult, although I still think Noisemaker 1 is a bit easier than LOL 1 of Pit Lems. Heck, Basic 1 of Lemmicks is the easiest out of these first levels in the first rank. Now, I know that you said that nin10doadict thought Pit Lems got difficult too quickly and that you were essentially aiming for intermediate with LWT. I don't think that has been the case so far with the tutorial levels, but I'm only in the very early stages of the pack, so I'm likely speaking too soon. In particular, I think Noisemaker 4 - Going under is the first level that will likely stump many players, as it really requires you to think about how to get through the multiple obstacles with the extremely limited amount of destructive skills. The level certainly does a great job of enforcing the idea needed, though, it's just a bit harsh with the very limited skillset IMO.

Noisemaker 5 - Over the rainbow might also be another somewhat difficult level for the less experienced players.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also consider Noisemaker 8 - Glide and joy to be another unusually difficult level, not just because of how to get the trick to turn around on steel with builders and a digger, which you explained in more detail in the most recent update from earlier this year, but also because

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Noisermaker 10 - Noel nouvelet is quite a nice somewhat challenging puzzle using only NL skills. I say the only tricky thing here is the placement of the stacker, especially when trying to make sure just the glider slips past and no other lemmings do.

Finally, not a difficult level per se, but I consider the trick needed in Noisemaker 33 - Mein kleiner gruener Kaktus to be an extremely obscure one for less experienced players. I have known it for quite a while, and hence the level is easy for someone like me, but

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's also a pretty nice looking level too, although the giant OWW arrows really stand out and make the cacti not look as nice. 

All other levels in the rank weren't as challenging as the ones mentioned above, although they're still challenging enough to require some thinking on how to solve. I really liked Noisemaker 21 - Rainbow in the dark, which is a really close repeat of Noisemaker 5, using the builder wall trick at the end, which is first taught 3 levels prior.

There are levels that I would like to point out where I didn't really use the trick you intended in your spoiler list. I think Noisemaker 14 - Digital World (I know what you mean in the spoiler list, but I certainly didn't use it, and I have skills leftover), Noisemaker 18 - Stop and stair (I simply brute forced it and so I have a basher leftover, easiest fix here is to increase the number of lemmings so I can't pull off what I did in my replay), Noisemaker 22 - Locked Away (I didn't assign any skills at the top of the walls to stop the climbers, and I don't think there's really any way to enforce this), and Noisemaker 30 - In the Army (I don't know what you mean in the spoiler) are the ones I didn't use the trick you intended. For the last one, unless that's exactly you mean,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A lot of these levels look really nice, even in the ones that use just the original styles. I got to say the nicest looking level in this rank is Noisemaker 15 - Octopus's Garden, with Noisemaker 39 - Vegas Lights a close second. I absolutely love the former song, as I'm a huge Beatles fan. Written primarily and sung by none other than Ringo Starr too, the one who contributed the least but occasional vocals as compared to his 3 bandmates in their songs. Hidden traps here, but the real saving grace is that it's a very short level and plus the locations of the traps in the octopus are kind of easy to guess at, although the level can still be a bit annoying to pull off. I'm not sure if my very temporary digger pit on the clam is intended, as well as getting past the trigger on top of it, is intended, though.

For the latter, I don't know the song, but I do know Panic at the Disco. Ugh, the excessive repetitive stoning assignments to get past 4 trap trigger areas! :evil: Even after that, it can be a bit difficult to isolate a lemming to bridge the gap to the exit. Nevertheless, I do like how you included the Eiffel Tower replica, since it is there when you visit Las Vegas. Speaking of Vegas, the last time I went was way back in 2012, after I had just graduated from college. I should definitely make plans to come back and visit one of these days. Too bad I'm already in my 30s, and it's especially very difficult for me to take vacations nowadays.

Out of the 40 levels in this rank, I recognized 11 of them by title. Others I don't know the song, but I recognized the artist's name. It surprises me that you even know about singers like Katy Perry, Duran Duran, and Joan Jett. You either know them from listening to them a lot on the radio or you really did your research. Others like the Beatles and Wham not so much, since they're from around close to where you are.

One final thing regarding a level. For Noisemaker 38 - Rock, Paper, Scissors, the trigger area of the vine traps seems way off. Instead of being right on top of the vine, it's a little off to the side. Is this intended? I'm not sure if it will affect the level's solution either way.

Finally, a big issue with the pack is that it tends to take quite a while for the level preview to load up. The worst offenders in the Noisemaker ranks are the two artistic levels I just mentioned, Octopus's Garden and Vegas Lights. The latter takes the longest out of all the Noisemaker levels to load up.

Now that I'm on the Amateur rank, hopefully the very exciting stuff is to come. I was definitely very bored with the Noisemaker rank, and them being quite challenging kind of made it a turn-off even more, but then again I am a bit crankier today than I usually am due to finishing the second half and how I'm extremely sleep-deprived. Again, I'm sure the pack definitely gets better with its puzzles. Artistically, obviously many of those are to come, since most of the levels had to get the design right. If that's the case, then I definitely have something to look forward to as I proceed with the pack. I just hope that the pack does keep me engaged as I play more of it later.

Ok pack so far, but again I'm aware that I'm not even into the good stuff yet since I've only played the very boring Noisemaker rank so far.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 07:38:22 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2020, 09:37:53 PM »
Just like that, Amateur rank already completed! Here are my replays up to Amateur 40, as well as my feedback on the Amateur rank. Same thing, since it's mostly just tutorial (not really) style levels, I'll probably do the same thing here as I did with the Noisemaker rank, meaning I likely won't give feedback on each individual level until Amateur 29 and beyond.

Feedback on the First 28 Tutorial-Like Levels of the Amateur Rank

Let me start off by saying that it was a huge relief to finally start hearing the other music tracks starting in this rank. I got annoyed with the boring ONML music rotation very quickly in the Noisemaker rank. Don't get me wrong, you did a good job of remixing the 6 ONML tracks, but it was very boring hearing the same 6 tunes throughout the 40 levels of the Noisemaker rank. Indeed, I found myself rocking out to some of your original Lemmings music track remixes in the Amateur rank :thumbsup: In particular, I love the music for Amateur 7, as well as the following level, Amateur 8 (Very nice How Much is That Doggie in the Window? remix! :thumbsup:), Amateur 9 (especially the beginning which sounds almost like something from Tchaikovsky's The Nutcracker Suite, specifically The Flower Waltz), and Amateur 13. Nice job with these! :thumbsup: The rest of the tracks I was either partial to or wasn't a fan of. I would probably love both The Can Can and She'll Be Coming Round the Mountain tracks if they weren't as loud.

After I finished the Amateur rank last night, I headed over to the LWT New Formats topic to read the posts on the Noisemaker and Amateur ranks. Apparently I echoed a lot of Icho's feedback for the Noisemaker rank here for Old Formats, so you're going to see me echoing a lot of Icho's feedback for the Amateur rank as well.

In contrast to the Noisemaker rank, the tutorial style levels in the Amateur rank were more enjoyable and weren't nearly as difficult, and the difficulty isn't all over the place. At least after the first 2 levels of Amateur, which I felt were difficult in their own way, although the former not as much as the latter. For Amateur 1 - It's a Long Way to the top, it is a bit difficult to see that 4 stackers is sufficient to get over the first wall. Even if it's difficult visually, I guess it's very easy to deduce that stackers must be used for that, based on the skillset, since 2 builders is obviously nowhere near enough to get over the first wall. Then again, it's always difficult to tell how many stackers are needed to get over any wall, especially since most of us are used to using builders to get over walls.

For Amateur 2 - Timber (It's going down!), the only difficult part is the leftmost entrance. It's not easy to figure out how to delay the lemmings long enough for a worker lemming to mine the tree obstacle before anyone turns back and drowns. The other two entrances are very easy to figure out. Then again, this is also the very first time I have played a level in your Autumn tileset, which means I need to get used to recognizing the objects but most importantly the trap, which blends in very well with the other leaves, although I correctly suspected the bottom one on the left since it really stand out, even if the top trap took me by complete surprise, since I have never played this tileset ever.

After the first two levels, then I say we had a long stretch of fairly easy levels. Amateur 3 - Walking on sunshine will likely look impossible at first glance for most, but then I looked at the number of lemmings in the level, and with two hatches, that means 5 out of each, hence the 5 swimmers. Also, since you later teach that the water breaks falls with Amateur 12 in the pre-text, I'm wondering if these levels should switch positions. The only problem here is that this would break the already neatly placed levels according to movement of skills for the first three levels (up, down, and horizontal), so unless your intention is for the player to figure out that water always breaks falls, I would say this can be a huge step up in difficulty for the less experienced players. Luckily, if the player manages to figure that out, the rest is easy.

Amateur 8 - Who let the dogs out? is quite a difficult level and I would even say is a huge step up in difficulty compared to the previous levels of the rank. It's not easy to figure out how to navigate the terrain and around the dog traps with the extremely restricted skillset. Truthfully, the missing disarmer was the very first thing I noticed in the level, so naturally I scanned the level to find the disarmer pickup. Surprisingly, I couldn't spot it myself, so at first I thought you were trolling and made an error for the level. I did suspect that it was the mound next to the last dog before the exit, but I wasn't certain. It should be obvious to you that I resisted turning on CPM, and I played the entire level without the aid of it. Indeed, the "boing" pickup sound took me a bit by surprise after I passed the mound I suspected where the pickup was. I then rewinded a bit and took another quick look, and I finally did see the disarmer icon in the mound. Quite well-hidden, if I do say so myself.

As for the level, I got to say that it definitely shouldn't be a surprise that indeed there are hidden traps in the dogs, particularly since the pre-text somewhat hints at it. It's also as you say, your animals are hungry for lemmings. I got to say, though, that you did a great job of depicting dog poop at the barrel, and when the trap went off, my reaction was, "Eww, the dog pooped on the lemming and killed it!" There is also some kind of trap that sucks lemmings upwards in the first and last dogs that I encountered in my solution when you get to its mouth. I got to ask, what kind of trap is it that's sucking the lemmings upwards? Especially since the lemming immediately gets sucked up once it steps on the trigger area. Obviously, it's to give the impression that the dog ate the lemming, so I thought that was fun to see. Above all, great looking level! ;)

I say Amateur 13 - Ayo Technology is a pretty difficult radiation level. It's definitely not easy to work out how to manuever the lemmings with the radiation coundown to get them to explode in the places that will get the crowds from either side up to the exit. The save requirement might seem very lenient, but even with the cloners it's pretty tight. Nice looking level though, with the depiction of the atom and referencing lemmings being blown into atoms with the radiation.

Amateur 15 - Ring, ring! can also be difficult, but I say more tricky than difficult. The solution I came up with building into terrain to turn around at the end to bash the OWWs seems to be the more difficult alternative. I read your spoiler list on what you intended on this level after I had saved the rank, and indeed having looked at the level again, I say destructive skills going against the OWW is the much easier option here. Once again, nice looking level depicting a telephone with the number keys.

Amateur 16 - Slide it in can also be difficult as well, especially with figuring out how to get the floaters home since they take a little longer to open up their parachute compared to gliders. I might had overcomplicated the solution tremendously though. Indeed, I just tried it again and saw that there are much easier ways to solve it than the way I did. This was what gave me a lot of problems on Hasty 6 of Lemmicks, and I mentioned that was the hardest level of the rank.

I think Amateur 17 - Float is also another difficult one, especially with figuring out how to get past the flower trap and how to bridge the gap before anyone else arrives and falls into the bottomless pit. I didn't use the stoner, so I wonder what the purpose of it is. Probably means I also backrouted the level, but I'm not sure.

Amateur 18 - Tears in Heaven is yet another difficult level and I would also say is a huge step up in difficulty to the previous difficult ones I just mentioned. The right crowd is easy, but the left crowd is quite difficult. It took me quite a while to figure out how to get all of the left crowd to the miner tunnel on the right side.

Amateur 23 - Fields of gold is a difficult level in figuring out how to navigate the honeycomb and getting the right crowd up to where the left crowd can get up. My solution is probably quite fiddly and there are probably much easier ways.

Amateur 24 - Wonderwall Not necessarily difficult, just tricky, in regards to getting the basher/blocker trick to work at the very beginning, but I was already aware of this trick and so this level wasn't as hard. Definitely for less experienced players it will be a very hard level. The one thing I didn't know about was

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Amateur 26 - Like ice in the sunshine Nice slowfreeze puzzle that gave me a good struggle for about 10 minutes, so it can be difficult and is somewhat a big step up in difficulty, even with the very restricted skillset. Definitely getting the crowd down safely is hard, and also figuring out how to stop them from walking into the trap.

Finally, Amateur 28 - Zombie is quite a difficult level to finish off the tutorial-like puzzles. Once again, compression for the win here and releasing the crowd at the right time to avoid infection. Before that, I kept trying to actually get rid of the zombie by making him drown, but I wasn't able to.

The other ones I didn't mention in the first 28 levels weren't as difficult and were enjoyable and more to my liking. In particular, I absolutely loved Amateur 5 - Sugar Baby Lem (easy level and nice looking level), Amateur 6 - Cliffs of Dover (nice puzzle and how there's two solutions, my solution spares all the climbers), Amateur 7 - Join me in death (I still enjoyed this one despite the stoner staircase and repeated bombing/stoning, at least it wasn't to the extreme and done to death like it was in Paralems), Amateur 9 - Greensleeves (nice, easy puzzle!), and Amateur 11 - Whole lotta Lems (very nice puzzle, although I initially tried to get all lemmings through the pillar for a few minutes until I realized I was going about it the wrong way and that the several climbers provided had a purpose, and the miner placement and timing can be a bit difficult).

My favorite level of the rank in the first batch of 28 levels was Amateur 19 - Holding out for a hero. Decent looking level and also a very nice, easy puzzle on top of it! :thumbsup:

I also really loved Amateur 25 - Radioactive. Very nice and easy radiation puzzle! :thumbsup:

Lastly, Amateur 24 - Firework I immediately thought of the nuke being required just based on the level title, especially since it does indeed look like fireworks from all the lemmings being applied a bomber skill with the nuke. This is one of the few levels that I have played where the nuke being required for the solution didn't escape me. For some reason, that one level in Lemmicks where the nuke is needed completely went over my head. I think this is the third level that has Katy Perry as an artist, so you're apparently a fan of her, as am I.

Ok, that took longer and I wrote a lot more than I thought I would, but at least the boring tutorial-like levels are done and over with. Now finally onto the open-ended puzzles and the more exciting stuff. The remaining feedback will be on the final 12 levels of the Amateur rank, starting with Amateur 29.


Feedback on the Last 12 Levels of the Amateur Rank, Starting with Amateur 29

The rest of the rank lived up to my expectations of very exciting and well-done puzzles, and so luckily you managed to get my engagement level back up, and so I will definitely be playing out the rest of the pack with joy, unless I start getting annoyed with future puzzles that have stumped me, but I highly doubt it, since so far it's been looking really good ;P It's going to take a while, since I still have 240 levels to go, but I'll get through the whole pack eventually. In the final set of 12 levels of the rank, the hardest level for me was certainly Amateur 37. I still loved the level and solution, though! ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For the Amateur rank, I recognized 10 of the songs by title

Overall, the Amateur rank was a huge improvement compared to the Noisemaker rank. It was still somewhat boring, but nowhere near as much, and the difficulty doesn't jump all over the place like it did in the Noisemaker rank. The Amateur rank definitely lived up to its promise of superb looking levels and well-made puzzles after the first 28 tutorial-like style levels. Indeed, I praised almost all of the final 12 open-ended puzzle levels of the rank, so that's certainly saying something. So, it's thanks to those levels (and some of the ones in the first 28 to an extent) that managed to get me engaged and hyped up about the pack again. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the rest of the pack and finishing up the whole thing! ;)

I think from here on out, I'm going to post with my replays and feedback when I get to the halfway point, ie, after 20 levels. As I said before, 40 levels is just way too much to write feedback on all at once. 20 levels at a time should be much more manageable in terms of how much time I waste writing my feedback. Indeed, that's exactly what I did with United, although I sent replays to Icho whenever I got truly stumped, not necessarily at the halfway point, although I did that too!

Onward to the Professional rank! :)       
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2020, 06:15:36 AM »
Well, I'm halfway through the Professional rank, so I'm back again already with more replays and feedback. Here are my replays up through Professional 20, as well as feedback for Professional 1 through Professional 20. Well, I must say that I continue to be impressed by the high artistic quality of your levels and puzzles that were definitely promised during my playthrough of the Professional rank so far, after finally getting past the boring stuff from the Noisemaker rank and the little over the first half of the Amateur rank ;) I'm probably now going a little way too fast for your liking, especially since I have seem to pick up significant speed, so perhaps I should slow down my playing of LWT a bit so as not to torture you with so much work fixing up levels for LWT as well in addition to LOA.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think what I will do is finish up the Professional rank and then dial back and slow down my playthrough so as to give you a chance to catch up on fixing levels for the Encore and Groupie ranks, as well as possibly any that I might had backrouted from the Noisemaker and Amateur ranks. I'm sure making you work, aren't I? I'm going to try not to torture you too much with that. Or I might also finish through the next rank as well, which will leave me at the halfway point of the pack. We'll see what happens.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2020, 02:03:41 PM »
Mmh, if you keep going at this pace, you will most likely reach the Encore and Groupie rank before I've had a chance to fix them! :D

Again, thanks for playing and taking the time to write these long and hugely detailed responses! :thumbsup: This will definitely help me as a big memory aid when I go about fixing the levels you have solved so far.

Some remarks to select comments of yours (before having watched your replays):

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Being another first rank that's just tutorials, I'll be honest, and that is I was pretty bored with the rank, since I'm pretty much familiar with all of the tricks mentioned in the pre-text associated with each level. That probably means I probably could had skipped the Noisemaker rank entirely, but when it comes to playing packs I play all ranks anyway, so endure it I must.

That is precisely the thing about tricks: If you know them, these levels are easy, especially because the pre-level texts spell them out to you. ;) If you don't know them, the level might stump you despite it telling you what to do at the beginning. But I don't see a way of teaching somebody a trick that doesn't involve "learning by doing".

Of course, skipping this rank is indeed an option: If you know all the tricks - or, more accurately, you believe you know all the tricks that can be done in NeoLemmix (since there might always be at least 1 or 2 you don't know yet :P ) - you are free to skip this rank. But do so at your own peril. When a later level comes back at you and hits you with requiring the same trick out of nowhere, don't say I didn't accurately prepare you for it. :evil:

Of course, "you" refers to any player in this context, because for you (kaywhyn) in particular, I know you are enough of a completionist to play the entire pack no matter what. ;)

Your level of boredom with the Noisemaker rank was likely a little amplified by you having played my easier packs back-to-back with this one. If you're basically waiting 150 levels (Paralems) + whatever number of Pit Lems levels was easy for you + 40 Noisemaker levels for a real challenge, you need quite a lot of patience. :lem-shocked: This will be less strenuous when the Noisemaker rank is the first thing you encounter from me as a level creator - which I assume will be the case for most players, since only LWT is available for New Formats so far.

I don't quite understand how the Noisemaker levels can be boring and challenging at the same time, though? ??? Unless the challenge is about execution difficulty (I recently played that "I am A.T." remake in Lemmings Plus I), which I tried to avoid as much as possible in LWT, I don't see how these too things can go hand in hand. ;)


NOISEMAKER RANK
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


AMATEUR RANK
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


PROFESSIONAL RANK
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2020, 10:57:29 PM »
Professional rank finished. Attached are my replays up through Professional 40, as well as my feedback for Professional 21 through Professional 40. The puzzles continue to be excellent, and more high praise incoming! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Your level of boredom with the Noisemaker rank was likely a little amplified by you having played my easier packs back-to-back with this one. If you're basically waiting 150 levels (Paralems) + whatever number of Pit Lems levels was easy for you + 40 Noisemaker levels for a real challenge, you need quite a lot of patience. :lem-shocked: This will be less strenuous when the Noisemaker rank is the first thing you encounter from me as a level creator - which I assume will be the case for most players, since only LWT is available for New Formats so far.

Also, just the fact that the real, exciting stuff actually begins with Amateur 29, while everything before that were simply tutorial-like levels that aren't really tutorials in the sense of teaching what each skill does, but instead skill combinations and tricks. Once I got to Amateur 29, my excitement for LWT really kicked up to 11. Ah, see what I did there? Haha.
 
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I don't quite understand how the Noisemaker levels can be boring and challenging at the same time, though? ??? Unless the challenge is about execution difficulty (I recently played that "I am A.T." remake in Lemmings Plus I), which I tried to avoid as much as possible in LWT, I don't see how these too things can go hand in hand. ;)

Yea, challenging and boring does sound very strange indeed. For sure it applies to execution challenges, but perhaps for difficult levels they are boring when they can't be solved at first? Once again, I expected to be able to breeze through the Noisemaker rank and up through Amateur 28 very quickly just to get the boring tutorial-like level styles done and over with, particularly since I pretty much knew all those tricks already, but that was most certainly not the case. I guess it was more of the fact that the unusual high difficulty put me off more than it usually did, and it is certainly all over the place, with it being much worse in the Noisemaker rank. Also, I think you're right about how I'm currently playing your third pack shortly after I finished both Paralems and Pit Lems. Maybe if I had spaced out the timing of the playing of the packs, maybe I wouldn't be put off as much as I was when I played through the first two ranks. 

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I also consider Noisemaker 8 - Glide and joy to be another unusually difficult level

I agree, which is why I made the pre-level text more explicit about the required trick.
Sadly, I'm pretty sure the precision you mentioned here is required to actually enforce Glider usage at this point: If the lower platform of steel just stuck out slightly below the steel pillar, you could just build over there regularly and wouldn't need the Glider - a regular Faller would also survive. ;) Can't have that! :evil:

Good point! I totally didn't think about that.

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Finally, not a difficult level per se, but I consider the trick needed in Noisemaker 33 - Mein kleiner gruener Kaktus to be an extremely obscure one for less experienced players.

This particular trick I actually discovered by accident while playing one of IchoTolot's levels. And that one didn't include an introductory hint.
I agree this trick is obscure, which is why the level is rather late in the Noisemaker rank. But since this is one I actually found myself without any hints from the forums, replays etc. (in contrast to many of the other tricks featured in this pack!), I'm inclined to consider it easier than some of the other tricks the player is supposed to learn here.

I believe I also discovered this trick by accident as well in a Lemmini level pack. It might had been Pimolems, or it might possibly had been Lemmings Reunion. I really don't remember.

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Finally, a big issue with the pack is that it tends to take quite a while for the level preview to load up. The worst offenders in the Noisemaker ranks are the two artistic levels I just mentioned, Octopus's Garden and Vegas Lights. The latter takes the longest out of all the Noisemaker levels to load up.

In these cases, it's because of tileset mixing. Occasionally, this may even lead to Old-Formats NeoLemmix crashing, as mentioned in the starting post. It's not going to affect your progress / save game, though; simply restart NeoLemmix and open the level again.

Some of the graphic sets simply have long loading time becaues of high resolution, though, even if you're not mixing them. For example, all of GigaLem's Freedom Planet tilesets. You may have noticed that the Pit Lems levels "Arigato, Lemming-san!" and "You want it, you got it!" also take a good amount of tile to load for this reason. ;)

Even the ones that don't tileset mix also take some time to load, although most certainly not as much as the ones that do or the high-res ones. In New Formats, the level previews literally load up practically right away for me, whereas for Old Formats even the classic styles without tileset mixing there's about a 3 second delay before the preview loads up. And yes, the random crashes in Old Formats is quite annoying. Luckily, they're non-fatal and won't erase all progress made. If I'm not mistaken, there's no plans to mitigate or even eliminate the random crashes for Old Formats?

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This is not my Autumn tileset, it's GigaLem's remake of namida's Lemmings Plus Tree tileset. So namida is to blame for the leaf trap blending in with the trees (kind of reminding me of the boulder trap from the Dirt tileset) :P . GigaLem just adapted the trap faithfully.

Oh, my bad. I thought it was a tileset you made for some reason.

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Although, since you mentioned the barrel, I think you're referring to the dog on the balcony? ;) That is actually supposed to be the dog peeing on the lemming. Hence it's yellow, and there's the little puddle on top of the barrel. I think I used a different water drop trap on another level featuring a dog from either Paralems or Pit Lems.

Yes, the one on the balcony. What about the trap that sucks the lemming up to the dog's mouth? What kind of trap is it? It's one where lemmings are immediately sucked up once they step on the trigger area, so for sure it's not the sucker trap from the bubble tileset.

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Precisely, new players would be completely stumped by this if the level didn't tell them about it. ;) I never knew it was possible until I saw it done on a level - a level which I had considered impossible before that. The digger trick you mentioned in the spoiler isn't actually part of the intended solution. Nice to know, though - and yes, given the behaviour of Blockers, it makes total sense. ;)

Yea, you're right.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Amateur 32 - Ich und mein Holz Nice level with a great solution! :thumbsup: You, Simon, Icho, Nepster, or eric can translate the level title for me.

The translation is already included in the pre-level text: It means "Me and my wood".

Oh darn, wonder how I missed that?

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Professional 13 - Tulpen aus Amsterdam I really like this level too, both the artistic quality and the solution :) The builder/platformer for both gaps are a bit precise, but luckily you only have to do the combo twice. Here, the flag pole was solid, so something really needs to be done about this in being able to differentiate whether it's solid or not. Although, if I'm not mistaken, only the white ones are non-solid, while any other color pole is?

Correct - the white flag pole is an object from the L2 Circus tileset, whereas the other ones are solid terrain.

This issue goes back all the way to the original design of Lemmings 2: The Tribes: On the Circus tileset, it was just the flag poles. L2 Shadow is an even worse offender with its street lights (switched on or off), phone boxes, clouds, the moon with a face, and the windows from "Georgia on my mind", all of which are objects - while the trash cans and hydrants are solid, as well as the moon from the L2 Polar tileset.

We cannot "fix" these tilesets because they are official ones. I could have refrained from using the Circus flag pole, but too often, an actually solid flag pole would have been in the way, and providing an additional destructive skill to get rid of it might have opened up backroutes. Of course, I could have refrained from using solid flag poles at all, then - but in this case, the landscape was so flat (well, duh, it's the Netherlands :P ) that I needed to add at least some form of altitude gain to make this more than just a "build across the water canals" level.

Fair enough. Thanks for letting me know that my guess was correct as to which flag pole is non-solid while the rest are. Of course, you can just not put in the white flag pole and let the flag just fly in the air without one, but obviously that's not possible to do in real life, so realistically it would be very out of place and just plain weird.

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Professional 19 (click to show/hide)

Exactly! ;)


Regarding you're still needing to fix and update the Encore and Groupie ranks, I'll probably just play up through the Legend rank then and stop there until the update is released. I'm one of those who hates for my momentum to halt, especially when I'm on a roll with the pack now. I was thinking of just stopping when I finish the Diva rank, but honestly I'm plowing through the levels much faster than I thought I would. I can certainly agree with your assertment that LWT is kind of intermediate in difficulty in regards to your other packs. Paralems is the easiest, LWT in the middle, and Pit Lems hard. Although there are still some levels that are unusually difficult in LWT, for the most part I haven't encountered levels that are very hard other than Amateur 37. So, I think I'm in agreement that LWT has intermediate difficulty overall just based on the first 3 ranks completed so far.

Onward to the Diva rank! Again, apologies if I'm going way too fast for your liking. Once I get to the point where I will stop my playthrough of the pack, I will switch gears and finish up resolving all of United, as well as test your LOA pack and possibly the contest entries that I haven't been able to solve if I haven't figured them out yet. There's only 2 no solves and only one level I need to resolve right now, although the latter may change depending on if the level creator releases an update that breaks my solving replay.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2020, 06:26:58 AM »
Halfway through the Diva rank, so time for more replays and feedback. Replays up to Diva 20. Wow, excellent levels as usual, but the Diva levels are considerably more difficult than the ones in the previous Professional rank. The hardest one by far before the halfway point of the Diva rank was definitely Diva 19. That one stumped me real good for about an hour.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Needless to say, the difficulty has ramped up considerably from the Professional rank. The levels started getting really difficult as I got closer to the halfway point, and there were certainly some tough ones in the first 10 as well, although not as much. Well, let's see how the second half of the Diva rank goes. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2020, 04:37:52 PM »
Diva rank completed and thus halfway (160/320 levels solved) through with the pack already. Here are my replays up through Diva 40 and feedback. In contrast to the first half, I felt the second half of the Diva rank was overall much easier.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Onto the Rockstar rank! ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2020, 07:22:13 AM »
Rockstar rank half completed. Here are my replays up through Rockstar 20 and my feedback. Lots of really good levels in this batch despite the difficulty being somewhat high or about the same as the Diva rank! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2020, 10:21:05 PM »
Rockstar rank completed and thus 200/320 levels in the pack solved! :) Replays up through Rockstar 40 are attached, and more feedback. As usual, I really loved a lot of these levels and puzzles! Definitely feeling the difficulty rising faster than I thought it would and hence my progress through the pack slowing down but in a good way, since the levels are still quite manageable and doable, and the pack continues to be quite enjoyable and not too frustrating ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Onto the Legend rank! Once I finish the rank, I will stop until an update for the Encore and Groupie ranks is released. So, this means two more posts of replays and feedback before none for a time. This will give me the opportunity to play catch up on resolving United, as well as the contest levels and playtesting your LOA pack.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 10:37:58 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2020, 08:50:31 AM »
20 more levels completed, and thus the Legend rank is half solved. Replays up through Legend 20 attached, and of course my feedback. Starting to get very difficult here, but still a bunch of great levels in this batch! ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

yes kaywhyn: I can translate Amateur 32 Ich und mein Holz = means Me and my Wood. In germany expecially at christmas time they make alot of wooden things like NussKnackers(Nut crackers). and other wooden things. Also this is another reason I want to go to germany in the future at Christmas time to see alot of the christmas markets. Also maybe like 6 months ago I bought a german kuckucksuhr(cookoo clock) which is made
mostly of of wood too. The clock also actually got sent from germany too. It plays 12 different german tunes. very nice. Also Strato(I think), Icho and Simon all live in germany. This is why I'm really fond of Icho. Also I like when Icho puts german titles for some of his levels(reunion and even United). Also even for my Angry lemmings I have a couple of german .ogg tunes. Like Mein Vater war ein Wandersmann(very well known german folk song)
means My father was a wanderering Man.

Thank you for a detailed explanation of the level title, even though you're late to the party here, as it's already been long after I have solved the level and Strato had already explained to me that the translation was in the pre-text. And yes, Strato, Icho, Nepster, and Simon are all from Germany. Still, this isn't the only one in German, there are several others in the pack.

All rightie, one more post of replays and feedback when I finish up the second half of the Legend rank, and then temporary break from the level pack until an update for the final two ranks is released. Still loving this pack a lot! ;)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 08:55:58 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2020, 05:06:19 AM »
All rightie, 20 more levels solved and thus the entire Legend rank is completed. My replays up through Legend 40 are attached, and as usual my feedback.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@eric ok, push has come to shove here, and with your most recent post you've pushed my buttons. Please stop spamming the level pack topics with "I've watched the replays." No one cares. You watch them at your own leisure, because there's absolutely no need to inform Strato or anyone who's actually playing the pack of anything that might had broken. Of course the replays work, I solved the levels myself and therefore can easily verify they haven't broke. You have your own replay topics, you can say it there instead. We already had this conversation, so it's starting to annoy me for repeating myself. In case you're not aware, you've gotten most of the community annoyed with your spam. I've been trying so hard to be patient with you, but it has reached its end. Enough is enough. If you were actually playing the pack and trying, it wouldn't be as bad.   

With 6 ranks completed, you now have confirmation from me that none of the 240 levels I have solved broke and that they're all still solvable. Also, it's time for me take a temporary break from the pack until an update for the Encore and Groupie ranks is released. No rush, take your time. I'll be busy taking care of other things Lemmings-related in the meantime. Happy viewing/fixing :P
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 05:47:21 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2020, 08:37:53 AM »
Thanks a lot for playing, kaywhyn! :thumbsup: Especially in Old Formats! Once I've fixed Encore and Groupie and when you return to play those final two ranks, you are probably going to be the first person to have beaten the pack in Old Formats, i.e. including the radiation- and slowfreeze levels. ;)

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@eric ok, push has come to shove here, and with your most recent post you've pushed my buttons. Please stop spamming the level pack topics with "I've watched the replays." No one cares.

In general, I couldn't agree more, but I didn't see eric mention that in his last post in here, in particular? ??? He just talked about the level "Ich und mein Holz", plus a bunch of other stuff. :D
Did some moderator delete another comment of his that escaped me?

I will inform you when I have watched the replays, though :P , because that goes along with telling you which of your solutions were intended and which weren't.

I'm definitely already curious about your solution for "Breaking the law"! :thumbsup: Sounds like an alternative solution, but as long as it gave you enough of a challenge, I'm probably going to be fine with it...
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2020, 08:50:56 AM »
In general, I couldn't agree more, but I didn't see eric mention that in his last post in here, in particular? ???
Did some moderator delete another comment of his that escaped me?

He posted in this topic a couple of hours ago mentioning watching the first 3 ranks and which talismans were missing, but he apparently posted it while I was still typing up my feedback. That's when I went back and edited my post to let him know that stuff like that is very annoying, so I'm certain he removed it before you got the chance to see it. I'm sure other pack authors would be annoyed with similar posts of "having watched replays" in their own level pack topics as well. Like yea, there's no need to confirm that everything still works, because again I solved the levels myself, so obviously I can confirm my own replays work. Don't need to point stuff out like that for the pack author and whoever happens to be playing the pack, especially if you're not going to take the time and effort to actively try and solve the levels.

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I will inform you when I have watched the replays, though :P , because that goes along with telling you which of your solutions were intended and which weren't.

Sounds good! ;)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 08:57:24 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2020, 03:43:56 AM »
I know I said a few weeks ago that I was going to wait until you released an update for the Encore and Groupie ranks, but going by what you mentioned in the New Formats topic for LWT of there being no backrotues except the level Twilems, which you might possibly change, I went ahead and completed the Encore rank. My replays up through Encore 40 are attached.

Yup, they were all too easy, considering they're just levels taken from Lemmicks, Paralems, and Pit Lems, all of which I have played, the latter two I completed very recently, while Lemmicks was several months ago. Even with 40 levels in the rank, it took me about an hour and a half to solve the entire rank. Also, I solved all of them from scratch again, rather than waste my time and hunt down a working replay for the level, since my replays are saved in the format of rank and level number, not by level title. The Lemmicks levels were obvious, while others I couldn't remember if the level came from Paralems or Pit Lems. Some of them I knew which pack it came from, but not all. Seems like for those levels that have repeats, that only the originals were picked for the rank, not the harder repeat. I guess it's coincidence that the original happened to be a song title while the repeat version isn't. For the Lemmicks levels, despite the solutions being new due to the gimmick they originally relied on absent, they were still very easy, possibly way easier now than in said pack they originated from.

Regarding any potential fixes for the Encore rank, I haven't seen Icho's replay for Twilems, so I don't know if you might change the level based on my replay for it as well. The only other concerning level in the rank, at least from what it looks like to me, would be Encore 17 - Lem to the slaughter. I'm quite certain that is a severe backroute, and I don't think I solved it this way when I first played the level in the pack it comes from, which I believe is Lemmicks? I'm sure it involves getting the swimmer hatch to rescue the other hatch rather than the way I severely shortcutted and cheesed the level here.

With the Encore rank completed, that just leaves the final Groupie rank to do, but for this one this is where I'll await an update before taking it on and finishing up the pack. Again, take your time, as I'm not in any kind of rush to solve the entire pack. I kind of gave you a lot of work with how I just finished LOA.   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2020, 03:56:52 PM »
And the update is here at last, the Groupie rank is fixed! :D The link in the starting post is still the same.

Some of IchoTolot's alternative solutions that used all or almost all skills are still possible, and sometimes deliberately so, because I found them awesome! :thumbsup: But everything that's obviously a glaring backroute has been dealt with now.

Except for Groupie 39, "Not the incended solution". Here the level-preview text even announces that backroutes will be possible. :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2020, 06:43:23 PM »
How do I update the pack if the DL link in the OP is the same? Or am I supposed to use the OP to update it? Also, a changelog of what levels in the Groupie rank has changed would had been nice so that I know for sure that I have the latest version. I haven't played any of the rank before your update.

edit: Never mind, I figured it out. It didn't take very long. Groupie 5 was the first level I noticed where the old version didn't match the New Formats version. In New Formats, there are pickup skills, but in the old version of Old Formats, there were no pickups. I just tried the DL in the OP, and now I see pickup skills. So, I misunderstood what you meant by "download in the OP is the same."
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 07:12:12 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2020, 11:03:21 PM »
Ah yeah, sorry, I forgot that in Old Formats, it isn't so easy to tell which levels changed ;) . In New Formats, the ticks next to the level names turn orange, obviously.

Updated levels are Groupie 01, 05, 06, 13, 18, 27, 29, and 36. The change about Groupie 10 was merely cosmetic (repositioning of one-way arrows).

I also swapped out the exit on Diva 23, because the exit on the Sandopolis tileset in New Formats apparently had been changed by the person maintaining the tileset (Flopsy was the creator, afaik). Therefore, both versions feature a classic Pillar exit now.

And yeah, the Dropbox link always remains the same when I simply replace the original file in the Dropbox folder with the new one.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2020, 12:26:44 AM »
Halfway through the Groupie rank, so you know what that means: More replays and feedback! Here are all my replays up through Groupie 20. Also, 300 levels officially solved. Wow! :lem-mindblown:

In contrast to the Encore rank, which I breezed through in just 1.5 hours, it has been much slower going in the Groupie rank. The difficulty's definitely picked up again. Not necessarily a bad thing with me. Still a lot of good levels I have played so far in this batch. I'm looking forward to the levels in the second half and seeing how many more designs of others I can recognize.

To be honest, I got way more of other authors' level designs than I thought I would, and so I'm actually having a lot of fun guessing whose level it's designed after. I seriously thought I wouldn't get many right, especially since it's been a long time since I played many of the packs by authors other than Icho and namida and, of course, you. Then again, it's only been about a year since I played those packs by other authors, so I guess it make sense that I'm able to recognize some of the designs despite having not seen any or remember any of their levels by design for quite a long time. By my count, I got about 11/12 of them out of the 20 I have played. That's not too bad, actually! :P

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

20 levels left in this gargantuan pack! Almost at the finish line :)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2020, 10:54:24 AM »
And, the Groupie rank is done and I thus have solved all of the LWT pack for Old Formats! :thumbsup: Icho may be the first to finish the New Formats version of LWT, but I'm officially the first to have all of LWT Old Formats solved. So, here is my entire replay collection for LWT Old Formats, all 320 replays. IMO, the second half of Groupie wasn't that much harder, but the final level of the pack was definitely the hardest, although certainly not the hardest level I have ever played. Not by a longshot. I also was far less successful with guessing the designer styles for the second half of Groupie.

edit: Reattached my entire replay collection due to going back and actually legitimately playing and solving Amateur 31 the right way, and unlocked the gold talisman along the way, and so I added my new Amateur 31 replay and got rid of the old Amateur 31 replay, which technically isn't really a replay of the level at all.

All rightie, onto the feedback for Groupie 21-40.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Overall, an excellent pack that I would definitely recommend despite the very large size of the pack. Even better if you're musically inclined, since you'll likely be able to understand the level title references to the songs. Though, it seems that not many people are fans of radiation/slowfreeze, and if that's the case, I say they shouldn't bother with the Old Formats version and just play the New Formats version instead. As you know, I don't mind the culled radiation/slowfreeze, so I was willing to play through the Old Formats version. I wasn't playing it just to be the first person to complete the Old Formats version. Even then, there aren't that many of these levels in the pack itself, so there's still a lot of just standard puzzle levels that players can enjoy if they don't want to bother playing the radiation/slowfreeze levels. And who knows. When I do the New Formats version, I'll probably end up LPing it. It'll take an extremely long time, though, and from what I remember it's definitely very slow going at first with the first two ranks, especially since the levels in them are not your tutorials at all, and some are difficult. Of course, I'll let you know when I have started it and provide you the link ;)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 08:07:58 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2020, 11:28:54 AM »
Damn, you're faster than I can reply to these! :thumbsup: In a weird anachronism, I've watched your first half of Groupie before the rest of your replays (and also before IchoTolot's re-solutions for New Formats... he already announced he "re-backrouted" the levels, so I assume he found some of the same backroutes you found :D ).


I'll reply to your second batch of Groupie levels later, but two things from your second post of course I have to comment on: ;)

Quote
Overall, an excellent pack that I would definitely recommend despite the very large size of the pack.

Thank you very much for recommending this pack to others! :thumbsup:

Quote
When I do the New Formats version, I'll probably end up LPing it. It'll take an extremely long time, though, and from what I remember it's definitely very slow going at first with the first two ranks, especially since the levels in them are not your tutorials at all, and some are difficult. Of course, I'll let you know when I have started it and provide you the link

I'd be honoured to see that, of course! :thumbsup: It would be interesting to watch in comparison, not only because you would be the first person LPing the New-Formats version - Flopsy has uttered interest in doing it, but no certain plans yet, as far as I could tell; and also, he would probably use his own music playlist again - but also because it would be the first non-blind LP.

Well, except for the couple of levels that had radiation and/or slowfreeze replaced on them, because they have slightly different solutions in New Formats. Albeit those solutions are rarely "better", just "different"... and sometimes just outright inferior versions, a mere attempt at replicating the original design.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2020, 08:05:25 PM »
I totally forgot that I wanted go back and solve Amateur 31 - The Great Level of Indifference the legitimate way by actually playing it instead of simply let myself pass by not playing it, so here's a 100% solution to the level and hence the gold talisman. I have also reattached my replay collection in my previous reply above, so if you want to you could redownload that or download it if you haven't done so yet. Plus the New Formats version actually has a save requirement, and so I will have to play it anyway.

Damn, you're faster than I can reply to these! :thumbsup: In a weird anachronism, I've watched your first half of Groupie before the rest of your replays (and also before IchoTolot's re-solutions for New Formats... he already announced he "re-backrouted" the levels, so I assume he found some of the same backroutes you found :D ).

Well, I'm honored. :P Haha I definitely had the momentum going as I was going through the Groupie rank, so I thought why stop when I'm on a roll? Yes, there was slow going at times on some levels due to me being a dummy, but for the most part the Groupie levels don't come near the brutal difficulty of some of the levels in the main ranks, especially the Legend rank, the final main rank of the pack.

Quote
Quote
Overall, an excellent pack that I would definitely recommend despite the very large size of the pack.

Thank you very much for recommending this pack to others! :thumbsup:

This is your flagship pack. I happen to be musically inclined from a really young age, and other than the extremely boring first two ranks which I think you correctly attributed to the fact that I played your Paralems and Pit Lems in quick succession, this pack gets an extremely positive reception from me due to the so many excellent puzzles, both the extremely artistic levels and the ones that aren't as much :) So really, the very artistic side of the levels is an extra plus if the puzzle/solution happens to be great in the first place, which I thought most of them were. This pack never got too overwhelming at all, except possibly the final level of the pack (just due to what you need to do in the first few minutes of the level), though there were some extremely tough nuts in the main ranks, but I felt they challenged me appropriately and in a really good way ;)

Quote
I'd be honoured to see that, of course! :thumbsup: It would be interesting to watch in comparison, not only because you would be the first person LPing the New-Formats version - Flopsy has uttered interest in doing it, but no certain plans yet, as far as I could tell; and also, he would probably use his own music playlist again - but also because it would be the first non-blind LP.

When I do do this, should I do it post-commentary like I'm doing with United? Or should I just LP it as if from complete scratch? Even though it's not really, since it will be a non-blind LP like you said since I've already seen all of the levels. Come to think of it, I notice how very quickly I tend to forget my own solutions to other people's levels, and so I might just do the former. Then again, maybe doing the latter is better and makes for a much more enjoyable experience for both me and the viewers, especially a pack author such as yourself ;) IIRC the longest I have ever struggled on a level in this pack was probably for a good 45 minutes or so, although I think the final level was close to an hour.

edit: After running my replays through the Replay refresher tool, I ran a mass replay check on them for the New Formats version. As I expected, several replays don't work, although I'm surprised that not as many failed as I thought there would be. 11 failed, some due to the glider issue, others for various reasons, most notably due to the ceiling being deadly in New Formats, while another 14 is undetermined (see my attached mass replay check text file for v12.10.0). Curiously, for v12.9.4, there are more problematic replays (mass replay check text file for v12.9.4 also attached). In both cases, it reports as Diva 24 not being found, although I ran my replay and it does work, so no problem there. However, it reports an error with Groupie 39 due to the generalstratomd style missing. So, it looks like I would have to go back and fix a lot of replays anyway, so perhaps this would point to doing the actual LP being the better option? Also, if I do this, I will definitely take your advice of devoting just a video to the final level, since it generally cannot be solved alongside other levels in the same session.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 08:25:29 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2020, 08:47:58 PM »
Ah yeah, thanks for adding Amateur 31; I had indeed already downloaded all your replays, so I just added this single one.

Quote
Plus the New Formats version actually has a save requirement, and so I will have to play it anyway.

Well, that's namida's fault, not mine; at some point, for some reason, he decided to make the minimum save requirement in New Formats 1. :P And I've already complained to him how he partially ruined this otherwise completely indifferent level with that! ;)

Quote
brutal difficulty of some of the levels in the main ranks, especially the Legend rank, the final main rank of the pack.

Really? ^^ "Brutal" is a word I maybe would have expected for some levels from Lemmings Open Air, not from this pack. Maybe that's because IchoTolot seems to have breezed through this pack quickly and easily, so that I had already given up hope that any of those levels would pose an actual challenge to adept solvers such as you and IchoTolot.

I don't quite remember which of the Legend levels you considered the hardest, but maybe I'd have to check those specific levels again to see where you're coming from. ;)

As for the final level of the pack: Yeah, that took IchoTolot one hour as well. It's not necessarily for difficulty per se; it's just because there's so much stuff to cover.
In the end, I'm probably happy that the New Formats editor has a pixel limit, so that I can't even be tempted to ever create such a monster again. :evil:

"The Grand Puzzle" was my first attempt at creating a Final-Frustration-like experience; in Lemmings Open Air, "Hammer-Smashed Face" is my second one.
Interestingly enough, Lemmings: Hall of Fame actually does not end with such a huge open-ended level.
But Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll might... and hopefully, that one will be much better at a much smaller landscape size. ;)

Quote
When I do do this, should I do it post-commentary like I'm doing with United? Or should I just LP it as if from complete scratch? Even though it's not really, since it will be a non-blind LP like you said since I've already seen all of the levels. Come to think of it, I notice how very quickly I tend to forget my own solutions to other people's levels, and so I might just do the former. Then again, maybe doing the latter is better and makes for a much more enjoyable experience for both me and the viewers, especially a pack author such as yourself ;) IIRC the longest I have ever struggled on a level in this pack was probably for a good 45 minutes or so, although I think the final level was close to an hour.

Well, if you really actually do forget your own solutions again quickly, then this might be the best chance you have to do a semi-blind LP. ;) In other words, just running the replays over the levels with post-commentary might be a wasted opportunity. At least as long as you're not really getting stuck - which I think both of us would have good reasons to doubt, now that you've already solved the entire pack in Old Formats.

I might still do a creator's commentary later, where I can run the replays with commentary... or IchoTolot might upload his solutions for New Formats to YouTube eventually. (Which would then be the same format in which you're planning to LP the pack, so if you're both just running the replays over the levels, it would be a very similar experience for the viewer, therefore most likely redundant.)

Quote
11 failed, some due to the glider issue, others for various reasons, most notably due to the ceiling being deadly in New Formats, while another 14 is undetermined (see my attached mass replay check text file for v12.10.0). Curiously, for v12.9.4, there are more problematic replays (mass replay check text file for v12.9.4 also attached). In both cases, it reports as Diva 24 not being found, although I ran my replay and it does work, so no problem there. However, it reports an error with Groupie 39 due to the generalstratomd style missing.

- The Glider physics change was indeed only implemented in New Formats, so yes, all those replays will fail and did so for me as well. Sometimes I had to adjust the position of an updraft in a New-Formats level but had to deliberately not do so in Old-Formats.

- Diva 24 is a rerun of Noisemaker 15, so maybe there was an issue with the level IDs in the replay files? I remember I didn't quite know about the issue with identical level IDs back in Old-Formats, so whenever I created a rerun out of an existing level but then later on manually gave it a different level ID, replay files I had created before that would end up getting confused.

- Groupie 39 isn't the only level to require the strato_generalmd style; it's also needed for e.g. the level "Weiße Rosen aus Athen", for my custom white flower traps, and for the level "It must have been Lems", with my custom Builder staircases pre-placed inside the level.
So if you don't have that tileset installed (even though you should, since it ships with the New-Formats download), those other levels should have produced error messages as well.
Maybe you downloaded the styles together with the pack, but they didn't get unpacked into the right folder? ;)
If you unpack the ZIP into your main NeoLemmix 12.10 folder, the levels folder should automatically get integrated into your levels folder and the styles folder into your styles folder. If however you unpack them directly into levels, then the styles will end up in the wrong place.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2020, 09:27:39 PM »
Quote
brutal difficulty of some of the levels in the main ranks, especially the Legend rank, the final main rank of the pack.

Really? ^^ "Brutal" is a word I maybe would have expected for some levels from Lemmings Open Air, not from this pack. Maybe that's because IchoTolot seems to have breezed through this pack quickly and easily, so that I had already given up hope that any of those levels would pose an actual challenge to adept solvers such as you and IchoTolot.

I don't quite remember which of the Legend levels you considered the hardest, but maybe I'd have to check those specific levels again to see where you're coming from. ;)

Yea, "brutal" is definitely an overstatement, since I only considered a few levels in each rank to be much harder than the rest in the same rank, and even then the hardest levels of each rank aren't very hard to the extreme. Here, I was simply making the comparison that the difficulty of the Groupie rank, while definitely harder than the Encore rank, which I easily breezed through due to having already played your Lemmicks, Paralems, and Pit Lems all in their entirety, as a whole, doesn't come anywhere near the difficulty of the main ranks, most notably the Legend rank, which I thought was definitely the most difficult out of all the 6 main ranks. The Legend rank had a lot of difficult levels from what I remember, and I considered those brutal compared to the other hard ones in the other main ranks. But yes, I am in agreement that "brutal" is a much better descriptive word for LOA's difficulty rather than LWT. LWT is most definitely intermediate in difficulty compared to your other 3 packs. In order from easiest to hardest, Paralems => LWT => Lemmicks => Pit Lems. Though, due to the changing gimmicks in Lemmicks, its difficulty is hard to place.

Quote
As for the final level of the pack: Yeah, that took IchoTolot one hour as well. It's not necessarily for difficulty per se; it's just because there's so much stuff to cover.
In the end, I'm probably happy that the New Formats editor has a pixel limit, so that I can't even be tempted to ever create such a monster again. :evil:

"The Grand Puzzle" was my first attempt at creating a Final-Frustration-like experience; in Lemmings Open Air, "Hammer-Smashed Face" is my second one.

Truthfully, the final level of LOA was nowhere near as stressful as The Grand Puzzle. Slightly easier as well, and I definitely prefer LOA's final level to LWT's final level. If you read my feedback on The Grand Puzzle, I'm not a huge fan of the level, mainly due to how I got quickly annoyed at how much scrolling needs to be done and just not being able to watch all crowds at once.


Quote
Well, if you really actually do forget your own solutions again quickly, then this might be the best chance you have to do a semi-blind LP. ;) In other words, just running the replays over the levels with post-commentary might be a wasted opportunity. At least as long as you're not really getting stuck - which I think both of us would have good reasons to doubt, now that you've already solved the entire pack in Old Formats.

I might still do a creator's commentary later, where I can run the replays with commentary... or IchoTolot might upload his solutions for New Formats to YouTube eventually. (Which would then be the same format in which you're planning to LP the pack, so if you're both just running the replays over the levels, it would be a very similar experience for the viewer, therefore most likely redundant.)

Well, at least many of the details of my solutions I tend to forget. My United level solving commentary video series is pretty much a complement to Icho's Creator's commentary, the difference being is that I not only explain my solutions but also I give input and thoughts on the levels themselves too from a player's perspective instead of from a level designer point of view. This means that if you ever end up doing a creator's commentary for your LWT pack, I might end up doing the same thing and complement your video series with mine. Or if it doesn't happen, I might just end up actually doing the non-blind LP, and possibly just switch to post-commentary if I get really stuck, though I highly doubt that will happen at all, considering the longest I've been stuck on a level in this pack was for about a good 45 minutes or so.

Quote
11 failed, some due to the glider issue, others for various reasons, most notably due to the ceiling being deadly in New Formats, while another 14 is undetermined (see my attached mass replay check text file for v12.10.0). Curiously, for v12.9.4, there are more problematic replays (mass replay check text file for v12.9.4 also attached). In both cases, it reports as Diva 24 not being found, although I ran my replay and it does work, so no problem there. However, it reports an error with Groupie 39 due to the generalstratomd style missing.

Quote
- Groupie 39 isn't the only level to require the strato_generalmd style; it's also needed for e.g. the level "Weiße Rosen aus Athen", for my custom white flower traps, and for the level "It must have been Lems", with my custom Builder staircases pre-placed inside the level.
So if you don't have that tileset installed (even though you should, since it ships with the New-Formats download), those other levels should have produced error messages as well.
Maybe you downloaded the styles together with the pack, but they didn't get unpacked into the right folder? ;)
If you unpack the ZIP into your main NeoLemmix 12.10 folder, the levels folder should automatically get integrated into your levels folder and the styles folder into your styles folder. If however you unpack them directly into levels, then the styles will end up in the wrong place.

I checked my styles folder for New Formats and it appears that I didn't extract all of your styles folders to my NL directory. Though, it's possible that I might had just simply used the styles manager download, but I didn't see the strato folders in the styles folder of NL, and so maybe not ??? I redownloaded the pack for New Formats and now it fixes the error with Groupie 39 in the mass replay text file. The same problematic replays are still reported, but again that's expected going from Old Formats to New Formats.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2020, 10:42:26 PM »
Yeah, since strato_generalmd is a special tileset, not meant to add standard pieces or for others to build levels with (many members have their own "miscellaneous" tilesets for that), I doubt the styles manager will be able to grab it. It's not part of the official styles download, for sure ;) , nor are my custom recolourings of the sprites. (But the latter are optional anyway.)

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Paralems => LWT => Lemmicks => Pit Lems

Really? You found Pit Lems harder than LWT? Guess that gives me even more motivation to convert it to New Formats, then! :thumbsup:

Sure, the focus with Pit Lems was on mechanical challenge instead of aesthetics like in LWT. But it also contains lots of open-ended "puzzles" (that are merely about resource conservation), doesn't require a lot of "tricks", and having only really been completed by nin10doadict prior to you, I doubt it was much more backroute-proof than LWT.

Also, nin10doadict was indeed able to beat the entirey of Pit Lems, but did not progress that far into LWT, as far as I know.

Well, either way, Lemmings Open Air is going to take the top spot in difficulty among my packs soon... :evil:

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Truthfully, the final level of LOA was nowhere near as stressful as The Grand Puzzle. Slightly easier as well, and I definitely prefer LOA's final level to LWT's final level. If you read my feedback on The Grand Puzzle, I'm not a huge fan of the level, mainly due to how I got quickly annoyed at how much scrolling needs to be done and just not being able to watch all crowds at once.

Yes, I've read your criticism, and it very much overlaps with what IchoTolot criticised about "The Grand Puzzle" as well. ;) That's why I had already taken it to heart and made the last level of LOA a) much smaller and b) had all the crowds contained from the start, except for the one where the camera / screen starts. This was one key difference IchoTolot had pointed out between "The Grand Puzzle" and "Final Frustration".

Last level of Lemmings Open Air (click to show/hide)

I can already promise that I will attempt a "Final Frustration" level again, because I think I can do even better than the last level of LOA.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2020, 10:55:48 PM »
I must admit I'm a little tired of packs that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 across the entire list of levels, now that we have so many more skills. Except of course if those packs were created before the other skills were available, like NepsterLems. ;) Then they get a free pass from me.

I'm asking out of curiosity, because you've raised this point before and it doesn't tally with my experience. Other than conversions of older content, what packs are there that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 skills? I know of one (Lemmings Migration), which is hardly evidence that there is a general trend. Are there others?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2020, 11:08:14 PM »

Quote
Paralems => LWT => Lemmicks => Pit Lems

Really? You found Pit Lems harder than LWT? Guess that gives me even more motivation to convert it to New Formats, then! :thumbsup:

You're welcome ;) I'm definitely looking forward to Pit Lems remastered, though if I'm not mistaken you said it's pretty much a compilation of your best levels from Lemmicks, Paralems, and Pit Lems? If that's the case, then not much for me to look forward to other than how the backroute patched levels turn out.

I should emphasize that IMO Pit Lems isn't that much harder than LWT. As I said before, in LWT there were generally only 1 or a few levels in each rank that I found hard, and hence I certainly agree with your assessment that LWT is intermediate in difficulty. Also, there's 40 levels in each rank, and so the difficulty was allowed to be much more gradual and slower in increasing. LWT also had a lot of pre-texts, while Pit Lems didn't have as much, so in that way Pit Lems can definitely seem to be that much harder than LWT, at least for the less experienced players. I was already familiar with all the tricks outlined in the pre-texts for both the Noisemaker and the Amateur ranks, and so that's why the pack appeared a bit easier to me. However, I admit that even I need an occasional reminder of some of them. This probably means that it might be better for players to play LWT first for the easier difficulty compared to Pit Lems. At the same time, I'm the opposite in that I generally play the smaller packs first and then the bigger ones, though I occasionally digress from this and instead generally play the harder packs first and then the easier ones next, like how I did with United, regardless of pack size.

In contrast, there's only 20 levels in each rank in Pit Lems, and so the difficulty increased much faster, although the levels themselves in the ranks already start off difficult. Then again, it's possible that I might had found some levels much easier than they should be due to backroutes, considering that you haven't watched my replays for the other ranks besides Groupie, and so my assessment of LWT's difficulty is probably more diluted than it should be.

Quote
Also, nin10doadict was indeed able to beat the entirey of Pit Lems, but did not progress that far into LWT, as far as I know.

I did see some of his LP of Pit Lems, and IIRC I think there were two levels that he got hints on and did post-commentary, one of which was the checkerboard level, the other was the one I got stuck on, it was the rank finisher of the penultimate rank.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #63 on: November 25, 2020, 10:27:24 AM »
Quote
I'm asking out of curiosity, because you've raised this point before and it doesn't tally with my experience. Other than conversions of older content, what packs are there that artificially restrict themselves to the classic 8 skills? I know of one (Lemmings Migration), which is hardly evidence that there is a general trend. Are there others?

Well, to be fair, since I announced I would give those older packs an obvious "free pass", I think most of them would qualify for that because they are indeed that old. For example, I know that Nepster's "Return of the Tribes" is even older than NepsterLems, so obviously it only has classic skills, too - even though a pack alluding to Lemmings 2: The Tribes feels much more like it "needs" NeoLemmix skills compared to e.g. Lemmings Migration. ;)

I looked back at when the Lemmings Plus Series started using NeoLemmix skills, and as far as I can tell, it wasn't until Lemmings Plus IV. Of course, I wasn't around at the time those packs were created, so I don't know whether namida made them in Lemmix first, or whether he had already set up NeoLemmix but hadn't introduced any new skills yet.

For packs converted from SuperLemmini, like SubLems, it's also obvious that they don't have NeoLemmix skills. And for the couple of levels Arty had to swap out because of certain skill behaviours that exist in SuperLemmini but not in NeoLemmix (like "Lemmings can't jump"), it wouldn't have made sense to introduce new skills just for those. Just like I didn't want to replace my radiation/slowfreeze levels in Lemmings World Tour with Shimmier levels in New Formats.

Then there is also Lemmings Stampede, although again, I don't quite know when it was first created.

Just in general, when I joined the forums, it already had had NeoLemmix skills for a while, yet most of the "current" content at that time (i.e. the packs held in high regard and recommended to others) still only featured the classic skills. Lemmings Migration came out new at that time and went into the same direction. I think it wasn't until I played CasuaLemmings that I encountered a new pack making excessive use of the new skills. And it wasn't until SEB Lems that a really challenging pack with new skills came along. At least that's how I remember it.

Now in New Formats, there are fortunately already many more packs that use NeoLemmix skills. ;)

However, in my post I was specifically referring to X-of-everything levels. And so far, most packs I've seen that feature them do so in a "X of every classic skill" manner. This is true for Lemmings Plus I-III and NepsterLems above all else. I haven't seen a lot of X-of-everything levels than include NeoLemmix skills in the same quantity as X.

Maybe because we haven't even agreed yet in the first  place on what "everything" means when more than 8 skills are available :D .
I'm referring to both the increased panel size (from 8 to 10) and the increased number of skill types (19 as of now, hopefully 23 in the end) here.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2020, 02:05:59 PM »
It's official! I'm the very first person to come up with a 100% solution to Groupie 40 - The Grand Puzzle! and therefore confirm that such a solution that was speculated to be possible is indeed achievable. Replay attached. I have therefore eclipsed everyone's records for this level, including Strato's :P On top of it, I even replayed the entire level again from scratch. Meaning, I didn't use my existing replay, as a lot of skill assignments had to be tweaked anyway. And, most importantly, I was willing to sit through the stress and annoyances of playing the level again just to find a "save everyone" solution. To Icho and Strato, you two are welcome :P

Do note that it still took me a very long time to find this solution, 1.5 hours. So, I'm hoping you can still award me for my efforts in some way, Strato ;) Even more interesting, the solution ended up using all destructive skills except 1.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And yes, this is indeed very worthy of a gold talisman, so I say go ahead and put it in! :thumbsup:

« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 02:42:39 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2020, 09:14:19 PM »
Well done, kaywhyn! :thumbsup: The talisman has already been implemented in the newest update!

With this, you also reminded me I still had three other Groupie levels to fix, so this has been done in the same update as well.

Changelog (click to show/hide)

Groupie 40 (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2020, 10:02:44 PM »
Wow, I really like your solution way better than mine. Mine just had way too much pixel precision assignments and therefore the level felt way more stressful than it needed to be. You also saved way more destructive skills than I did, and you indeed could salvage your own solution to make it a 100%er by doing what I did :P Lastly, you put several of the builder assignments in different places than I did. Even more, I could see you might be able to have a builder leftover by doing the digger/basher/miner staircase when freeing the second entrance from the left at the bottom. As for having more than 1 builder leftover in the end, I highly doubt that's possible, meaning any solution to the level should end up either using all builders or all but 1. I might be wrong, though. In any case, the whole point of this endeavor was to lay claim to the speculation that a 100% solution is possible. Now we don't have to worry about whether it's doable or not. Heck, I felt you indeed could had been the very first to achieve the 100% solution :P

That reminds me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for the other changes in the Groupie rank, really? Only 3 levels needed fixing? That's pretty good out of the 40 total levels in the rank!;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2020, 10:41:42 PM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
As for the other changes in the Groupie rank, really? Only 3 levels needed fixing? That's pretty good out of the 40 total levels in the rank!;)

I had already updated a bunch of the others the last time ;)

Quote from: Strato Incendus
Updated levels are Groupie 01, 05, 06, 13, 18, 27, 29, and 36. The change about Groupie 10 was merely cosmetic (repositioning of one-way arrows).

Plus, before that, I had fixed all of IchoTolot's solutions to the Groupie rank, too.

Of course, it might well be that I've still overlooked some things, or that some levels might be unfixable (I said earlier that I deliberately left one of "my own" Groupie levels, i.e. level 39, the way it was). But as far as I can see, the last update before the current one was from 22nd November, and all the other Groupie levels I had fixed earlier had that date as their "last modified".


As for your question in the spoiler, I have no idea. I never tried to enforce such a solution in "Lemmicks". I guess the only person who could provide more inside into that is namida. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2020, 10:50:03 PM »
Oh, right. That's still pretty good though, 11/40 levels in the Groupie rank needing a fix, i.e, about 1/4 ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2020, 07:58:50 AM »
Resolved the 3 Groupie levels
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2020, 11:52:06 AM »
Thanks, kaywhyn! ;) I'm fine with your solution to "All your zombies" as an alternative one, but the other two still feel like backroutes.

Anyways, I still have to watch all your replays from the main ranks, so expect one giant update once I'm done with that. Groupie 05 and Groupie 13 will simply also be fixed yet again along the way.

Obviously, this will take quite a while, so... :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2021, 11:42:47 AM »
The update is here! The link in the starting post is still the same Dropbox link as always.

The following levels have gone through some changes:

Changelog (click to show/hide)

There is also one trick I've repeatedly seen on the Legend level "Nothing else matters" that I can't really seem to prevent.

Finally, kaywhyn found a solution to Legend 03, "We can be heroes", that is perfectly acceptable in Old Formats, yet it wouldn't have worked in New Formats so far because of the deadly ceiling.
However, since I liked this alternative solution (used all the skills), I made the ceiling solid throughout in New Formats now - also to disguise a little more where you actually need to interact with the ceiling (this was much easier to spot in the previous New-Formats version).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2021, 09:59:33 PM »
Resolved all levels. The only changed levels that didn't break for me were Legend 22 and Legend 23. I'm guessing they were to block off Icho's backroute in the New Formats version? Legend 37 I say remains quite hard. I have a climber and builder leftover this time. Not sure if I have all intended tricks, though.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2021, 11:17:55 PM »
Thanks for the replays, kaywhyn! ;) I'll check them once I prepare the next update, which will arrive once Arty is done with the Rockstar rank.

Unless he gives up before that, of course :P , but I doubt that, he beat SEB Lems, after all - World Tour is a cakewalk compared to that. As I said, I even think Lemmings Open Air is easier than SEB Lems. So I'm curious to see whether Arty can beat that as well, but obviously not on camera - and he might just move away from Lemmings altogether for a long while after he's done with the World-Tour Let's Play. (Not just in terms of what he chooses to LP, but also in terms of what he plays in private.)

Side note: As I just commented under his latest World-Tour Let's Play video to give Arty a fair warning in advance regarding the not-so-family-friendly terrain shape of Rockstar 34 :D ...
I got consciously aware of the level number again. And started wondering whether I had indeed given this level the number 34 on purpose, back when I first put the pack together.

So to follow that up, I had to check whether Rule 34 of the internet also applies to Lemmings.

Yes. Yes it does. And no, it's not about the shape of the terrain :evil: .

So maybe Rockstar 34 might still be comparatively harmless, after all... :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2021, 09:58:30 PM »
Uploaded a small update (link in the starting post is still the same) with fixes for two backroutes Arty found during his Let's Play of the Rockstar rank (Rockstar 04 and Rockstar 07; added steel on both).

I would have waited with this until he's done with the entire rank, but I had to do a fix in New Formats anyway, to make the level "In the shadows" playable again. So I might just as well do those fixes along with it.

Note that due to the latest Swimmer physics change in New Formats, the solution for "In the shadows" will be different in New Formats now. No changes to the Old-Formats version of that level. There might be a way to make it work in Old Formats, in turn, but I don't want to break the level for anyone who has found the perfectly valid intended solution in Old Formats. This is a change I didn't want to make in New Formats, but kind of had to. And I'm phrasing it this way because the New-Formats solution is actually more difficult than the Old-Formats one.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 10:10:03 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2021, 03:27:39 AM »
It seems Lemmings World Tour is finally showing its true colors. The Legend rank... is getting frighteningly difficult...
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

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My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2021, 04:09:38 AM »
Indeed, save for the one or so odd level in the previous ranks that I found harder than the other levels in the same rank, as well as the wonky first rank, Noisemaker, where the difficulty is all over the place, I felt no real challenge with the pack until I got to the Legend rank. That's where solving times finally started slowing considerably for me. I know several hard ones in the rank coming up after where you last left off in your LP, some of which you might had already encountered. So, it sounds like you have reached the point where you will only be able to solve one or a few levels per video and still be able to fit within your half hour video length, with maybe the occasional 4-5 levels solved per video if you manage to catch some lucky breaks in the rank.

At the same time, LWT is one of those packs where it constantly always seems that it keeps going, in large part due to how there's a massive 40 levels per rank (almost the largest amount of levels per rank in a pack, just short by 1 level, second to United in that regard) and a grand total of 320 levels. Indeed, I felt this burnout when I LPed the New Formats version of SEB Lems in the last few months, even though it's exactly half the length of LWT at 160 levels and how there's only half the number of levels per rank (8 ranks just like LWT). It felt like the LP just kept dragging on, but at the same time it's considerably harder, and I got stumped so badly at many different points throughout the pack. However, in your case you LPed the Old Formats version of the pack where it has 175 levels. That's because the Old Formats version includes an extra rank of 15 levels which eventually got removed in the New Formats version. So, even though I ended up playing 15 levels less than you did, I definitely felt the burnout with SEB Lems, especially since hard levels just kept coming up after one another in both the Murder and Rapture ranks and hence the finish line kept feeling so far away.

Now, eventually at some point I would like to LP the New Formats version of LWT, but that's not going to be for some time. I'm pretty sure I will really feel the LP dragging out due to the sheer length of the pack at 320 levels. This is also why I choose to LP smaller packs in between the big ones as well. After I LP a large pack, I generally do a much smaller pack next. Of course, I will also take a huge break after finishing LPing a large pack, just like I did with SEB Lems, which is currently the biggest level pack I have LPed to date, at 160 levels.

Don't despair, though. As I mentioned in your first LP video that you've done in years, you haven't lost too much of your touch with the game after all that time away. You went through the Rockstar rank in a fairly decent amount of time with relatively few problems. I know you can get through the Legend rank too. This pack's got nothing on you, Arty! ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2021, 04:12:33 PM »
I just want to stress once again that SEB Lems, which Arty has already beaten, is considerably harder than any level in Lemmings World Tour. :D

Personally, I even think SEB Lems is harder than Lemmings Open Air. But maybe it's just that Flopsy and I mutually can't beat each other's packs ^^. Making hard levels is easier than solving them, after all.

Don't be shy to ask for help, Arty - I just have no clue where your currently struggling. ;) It might be Legend 07 ("Lemmingrad"), but that is another level I'd say was pretty much "made for Arty"... 8-)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2021, 06:27:59 PM »
I just want to stress once again that SEB Lems is considerably harder than any level in Lemmings World Tour. :D

Says the guy who has yet to beat the pack :P More to the point, I disagree. There are some levels in SEB Lems that are just as easy as some of the ones in LWT. It is tagged Medium-Hard after all, while LWT is just Medium. You also have two more ranks after Rapture. They both start off easy, where they start off around early-mid Paradise rank, and gradually get hard as you get further in those ranks, with the hardest levels reaching about Rapture difficulty just like Flopsy has confirmed and that you correctly guessed.

Quote
Personally, I even think SEB Lems is harder than Lemmings Open Air. But maybe it's just that Flopsy and I mutually can't beat each other's packs ^^. Making hard levels is easier than solving them, after all.

This I agree. SEB Lems is miles harder than LOA, as evidenced by how I struggled even in the Bittersweet rank. In contrast, your LOA pack I felt no real challenge until around mid-late Heavy rank, in a similar vein to how I said that I felt no real challenge with LWT until I got to the Legend rank as mentioned in my above post. Indeed, I would had agreed with you if you had said that SEB Lems is, on average, harder than LWT, but you mentioned "harder than any level in LWT," which I mentioned that I disagree with :P

Quote
Don't be shy to ask for help, Arty - I just have no clue where your currently struggling. ;) It might be Legend 07 ("Lemmingrad"), but that is another level I'd say was pretty much "made for Arty"... 8-)

You indeed guessed correctly. I too remember struggling with Lemmingrad, although I will say it's quite a nice level with a great solution that's precise in some places. Just watched Arty's most recent LWT LP video, and at the end it says right after he completes Legend 6

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 07:19:09 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2021, 08:58:16 PM »
Yep, Lemmingrad is the level I am stuck on. I've tried to beat it for hours and just cannot see any way to reach the exit with the skillset. I swear we are 1 destructive skill short.

A hint would be most appreciated.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2021, 09:04:55 PM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
Says the guy who has yet to beat the pack :P More to the point, I disagree. There are some levels in SEB Lems that are just as easy as some of the ones in LWT. It is tagged Medium-Hard after all, while LWT is just Medium.

That's precisely the point :P : I couldn't even finish SEB Lems, Arty did. So Arty should have no trouble beating LWT in the end.
Obviously, every pack has its easy levels, but that's not what determines whether somebody will be able to complete the entire pack in the end. I called myself "He who usually only makes it up to rank two" for a reason. By that logic, any pack I have never beaten but only played up to rank 1-2 could be considered "just as easy as LWT".

I didn't say every level in SEB Lems were harder than in LWT; I said that every level in LWT is easier than finishing SEB Lems in its entirety (which is what Arty has already accomplished).

Moreover, the difficulty rating "Medium" vs. "Medium-Hard" already proves that SEB Lems is harder than LWT and purposefully so. I don't even see why we're arguing about this. ;)

Quote from: Colorful Arty
A hint would be most appreciated.

Well, I can't see what you're currently trying to do, but let's say your very own favourite trick for skill economics will get you very far on this one. It's just potentially harder to set up here. ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2021, 09:17:12 PM »
Welp, I solved it so I guess the hint won't be needed after all, only for me to see you post the hint anyways. Thanks for helping. :)

I'll reveal my full feelings on this level when I show off my solution on video, but fair warning: I raged a lot on this level and the solution should NOT have taken this long. I saw the solution pretty much instantly and then had to spend hours getting the solution exactly perfect with around 20 attempts ending because of ONE $*&%^#* PIXEL. The solution I was trying was the same as the intended solution, but the architecture made it unfairly precise for no reason. I don't even think it was intentional on your part to make the architecture this annoying, but it was.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #82 on: March 15, 2021, 09:29:25 PM »
That's precisely the point :P : I couldn't even finish SEB Lems

Ah, you're speaking too soon, as you're quite close to the very end of the main pack and still have two more side ranks to go through :P Granted, you needed hints on several of the levels, but you're definitely way past the point where most give up in frustration on the pack. Honestly, at this point I'm confident that you'll be able to get through the rest of it ;) There are level solutions as well as my LP in case you need more of a nudge in the right direction :laugh:

Quote
I didn't say every level in SEB Lems were harder than in LWT; I said that every level in LWT is easier than finishing SEB Lems in its entirety (which is what Arty has already accomplished).

Moreover, the difficulty rating "Medium" vs. "Medium-Hard" already proves that SEB Lems is harder than LWT and purposefully so. I don't even see why we're arguing about this. ;)

We're not. Based on how you wrote it you made it look like you meant that every level of LWT is easier than SEB Lems, which is clearly not true. Since you clarified that what you meant is how LWT is generally easier to solve than SEB Lems as a whole, now that there's no argument from me there :P

Welp, I solved it so I guess the hint won't be needed after all, only for me to see you post the hint anyways. Thanks for helping. :)

Congrats! :thumbsup: Yea, I think I remember it being very precise as well. I'll need to check my replay again, as a lot of these solutions I'm struggling to remember a lot of the details. This is especially the case when I'm watching your LP, where I often wonder, "How did I solve this level again?" :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2021, 12:50:32 PM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
We're not. Based on how you wrote it you made it look like you meant that every level of LWT is easier than SEB Lems

Well, to be fair, I now realize there are two ways to understand the statement "every level in LWT is easier than the entirety of SEB Lems": :D

1) "the entirety" like "every single level in that pack is harder" (which we agree is not true, and which I never meant to imply)

2) "the entirety" like "the entire pack", and the difficulty of the entire pack is determined by how hard it is to beat the pack as a whole. Because a single super-hard level, even if every other one is easy, can stop you from completing a pack. And completing the pack is simply much harder to do with SEB Lems than with LWT.

Quote from: Colorful Arty
Welp, I solved it so I guess the hint won't be needed after all, only for me to see you post the hint anyways. Thanks for helping. :)

I'll reveal my full feelings on this level when I show off my solution on video, but fair warning: I raged a lot on this level and the solution should NOT have taken this long.

First of all: Congratulations for solving it even all by yourself, Arty! :thumbsup:

For the second part: Of course, I'll have to actually see your solution first before I can confirm whether it's actually the intended one, and if so, to what extent. My own replay was fairly precise, but I've seen replays by others where the setup of the same core trick was less precise, because it relied on fewer moving parts. As a consequence, I had less of a bad conscience about it, because I discovered that easier things than what I had in mind originally were possible, and I had no intention of breaking those slightly alternative approaches.

Maybe you're the first one who actually did what I did when I made the level - or maybe you've even done something that's even harder to pull off. I have no way to tell yet. :evil:

That said, it's the final main rank, so just like in other packs, if there are supposed to be any levels where no punches are being pulled anymore, it's here. :P

Sure, ideally that difficulty should be conceptual more so than pixel-precision, and definitely not based on execution difficulty alone. But avoiding pixel precision is usually no longer as much of a concern on levels from the final rank of any pack if the solution necessitates that precision from a conceptual standpoint.

Which is why I'm a little confused about this statement of yours:

Quote from: Colorful Arty
I saw the solution pretty much instantly

What do you mean by "instantly"? ;) As soon as you started your next session of attempting it?


Because I'm pretty sure you didn't see the solution conceptually right away when you first looked at the level - otherwise you probably wouldn't have asked for a hint... ;)

Unless this is another case of what happened on Legend 04: That your first instinct was the correct one and you discarded it because you couldn't execute it.
That's always a pity, because rediscovering the correct solution if you've already had it and discarding it is harder than discovering it for the first time.

In terms of "making destructive skills go through in general": I think now we've seen two different examples of how inspiration by other players can easily create monsters accidentally
^^:
- in my first pack Paralems, I had some hidden objects and a couple execution-heavy levels. Then WillLem came along with his first pack(s) and took that to even greater extremes than I would ever have imagined possible.
- in SubLems, in turn, Arty had some of these levels making skills go through each other. That inspired me to make my own, and I've taken that to much larger extremes. :evil:

The special challenge with Legend 04 was probably that this was the only combination of destructive skills of which Arty wasn't aware / sure (or at least not anymore) whether it would work in the first place: Miners crossing, Basher and Digger crossing, those were clear because he used them in SubLems himself. When I once asked about these combinations while I was playing SubLems, I also learned in turn that making a Miner and a Digger pass through each other is not possible.

That said, in terms of execution, I had to get these levels right myself - just knowing the solution on a conceptual level is not an advantage in this regard ;) - and if it had frustrated me enough, I obviously wouldn't have included them. ;) In turn, I was also frustrated by some of the levels in SEB Lems which required this "Miner-goes-through" stuff with a lot of setup. It's simply part and parcel of this type of solution: Often a strong limitation of destructive skills is required to even enforce the necessity of making a Miner go through in the first place. Which then becomes precise because Builder staircases are fairly thin, and it's easy for at least one of them to be accidentally cut through by the Miner.


I remember kaywhyn having similar criticism about Legend 04 as you
, but for Legend 07, while he mentioned the pixel precision, too, he still called it a "very nicely designed level" overall.

IchoTolot meanwhile had trouble with the crowd containment on Level 04, so that's what he criticised, but I didn't see any criticism of skill crossings in his comments.
Only about lightning traps hidden in clouds ^^, which in turn Arty fortunately appreciated (on Legend 06 ;) ), because he understood the flavour reasons. You know that when in doubt, flavour trumps mechanical fairness for me.

As I said under Arty's video, I always considered the Miner's position on Legend 04 fixed, so I didn't think positional cues in the terrain of what to assign where would help. The issue is when you assign the skills (i.e. to which lemming from which crowd), more so than where. Depending on when you start mining and with which lemming, even if from the same position, that will inevitably influence how you have to make the second assignment. That is the inevitable challenge of levels relying on relative timing between lemmings.

Finally, just because terrain cues are there doesn't mean they're understood by the player as such. ;) I've repeatedly missed them on levels from SEB Lems that required skills going through, for example, and just mistook them for arbitrarily-placed decoration. Unless it's explicitly written as "Mine/Bash etc. here", like in the Practice levels of Lemmings 3D, it can easily happen that the only person who understands that terrain piece X is a position cue is the level designer him- or herself. ;)

With Legend 07, I don't think terrain cues would help that much to begin with, because again the relative timing is the issue. But I'll have to see Arty's solution first before I can confirm whether it's actually the intended one to begin with. I assume it relies on the main trick, but the intended / alternative question is all about how that main trick is set up.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2021, 07:36:15 PM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
We're not. Based on how you wrote it you made it look like you meant that every level of LWT is easier than SEB Lems

Well, to be fair, I now realize there are two ways to understand the statement "every level in LWT is easier than the entirety of SEB Lems": :D

1) "the entirety" like "every single level in that pack is harder" (which we agree is not true, and which I never meant to imply)

2) "the entirety" like "the entire pack", and the difficulty of the entire pack is determined by how hard it is to beat the pack as a whole. Because a single super-hard level, even if every other one is easy, can stop you from completing a pack. And completing the pack is simply much harder to do with SEB Lems than with LWT.

Fair enough, although in case there's ambiguity like here then generally things should be stated/written in such a way so that there's no confusion, or if there is a chance that something can be misinterpreted by stating what you meant, which you of course did ;) Of course, I don't claim to be an English language expert or anything despite English being my native tongue, but opportunities to eliminate any ambiguity should be done whenever possible, let's say :P Obviously I took "every level in LWT is easier than the entirety of SEB Lems" to mean 1), which was what I didn't agree with, but since your clarification we are indeed in agreement that it isn't true at all, hence why I said we're not "arguing about anything" ;)

I do agree with 2) completely, although despite Medium being in the difficulty tag, I think we also agree that they're not on the same level of medium. I would say that SEB Lems is more on the higher end of the medium difficulty, while LWT is generally on the lower end of the medium difficulty. Of course, this is subjective, as I'm simply speaking from my experience with your pack where I didn't really struggle until the Legend rank, while SEB Lems I already started struggling even in the second rank. Similarly, the pack that I'm currently LPing The Lemmings Have Grown I say is definitely on the higher end of the medium difficulty, as even the first rank levels managed to kick my *** so badly :laugh: When I post my feedback for the pack later on I will let the author know to change the difficulty tag from Easy-Hard to Medium-Hard, as it is so not the former

Quote

I remember kaywhyn having similar criticism about Legend 04 as you
, but for Legend 07, while he mentioned the pixel precision, too, he still called it a "very nicely designed level" overall.

I honestly didn't remember criticizing Legend 4 until you reminded me with this and I had to look back at it. Now that I think about it, I don't think it's so much that I had to do it so many times until I got it to work with the skills crossing that I was criticizing. I think it's more that I'm not generally a fan of levels where the solution involves destructive skills crossing. Indeed, I quickly deduced that the solution involved crossing of skills from the skillset and I nearly had an instant "oh Strato so did not go there." :evil: Of course, being the completionist that I am, I ended up playing it and get it solved by any means possible. To be fair, it is at least a very short level, and the 99RR kind of helps with the execution a bit, as well as enforce the trick that Icho missed conceptually completely on the bottom right entrance. Interestingly enough, I think when I was LPing Sublems a few months ago I had more trouble getting Christmas Crossing 1 to work than I did with getting Christmas Crossing 2 to work. There's a huge difference, though. In the former, it involves placing 4 skills correctly, all of which have to be placed at the right time, while in the latter you only need to place 2 skills correctly at the right time.

Legend 7, on the other hand, is a type of level involving "extending the miner," which I generally enjoy more. Unlike Legend 4, it's not as super precise, as there's still some leeway in terms of the builder/miner placements. From what I remember, I think I had my doubts as to it working just because of how the terrain is on the level and whether setting it up is even possible. Besides that, I think there were just other things I liked about the level that certainly outweigh the criticism of the pixel precision ;)

Just FYI, there is a somewhat tall Sports level in United which involves an extremely long "extending the miner," (possibly the longest I've ever seen in a level, as a matter of fact) although in this case the setup is nearly automatic ;)


Keep up the great work, Arty! :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2021, 08:26:46 PM »
Thought I'd share my replay for "Lemmingrad", for the sake of completion. The timing I used on my solution isn't required to beat the level, though; both kaywhyn and IchoTolot found easier solutions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2021, 09:58:13 AM »
@Arty I thought I drop off my Legend 4 and Legend 7 replays for you so that you can compare. Sometimes, it's easier to just simply watch the replay, as it can be quite difficult to describe the solution at times. As I mentioned before, there's multiple ways to do Legend 4, as I ended up using different lemmings from the ones you used in your solution.

Nice job on solving these two levels. Good luck with the rest of the Legend rank, and let us know if you need further assistance if you get stumped again.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2021, 06:08:09 PM »
wow, Colorful Arty is very distraught at Legend 7 (Lemmingrad) in his Let's Play video of that level.

Although there are easier, less precise solutions as Strato, Icho, and Kaywhyn showed.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 07:27:23 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2021, 08:14:10 PM »
Oh wow, 4 different solutions to Legend 7. Now that I think about it, I might had tried it Arty's way before, especially the stuff with the blue building, but I wasn't able to get it to work. Either that or I never tried it that way. In any case, my replay is attached if you would like to compare, @Arty ;)

wow, Colorful Arty is very distraught at Legend 7 (Lemmingrad) in his Let's Play video of that level.

Although there are easier, less precise solutions as Strato, Icho, and Kaywhyn showed.

I don't think you understand how very difficult it is to LP a pack. Try doing it sometime, then we can talk and see if you still think it's easy. Sure, I might make it look easy at times, but LPing is not as easy as it looks. It's difficult to LP and solve well both at the same time. That's why I often mention that I screw up on camera far more than I do off camera, and this has indeed happened multiple times for every pack I've LPed.

Also, my Legend 7 solution isn't that much less precise, as there's still a lot of precision needed in it. In particular, what I did at the blue building with the destructive skills are very precise. The rest of the solution isn't as timing heavy and precise, but the precision is still there. It's only slightly easier to do just because I was able to save some of the more valuable skills for later.

Indeed, solutions being very precise is exactly what makes one doubt as to whether they will work or not. In such solutions, as can be seen, one pixel too early or too late for a given assignment, and the solution won't work. The problem lies in finding those perfect precise spots for the skills, because if you don't, the solution will not work even though it should otherwise. In the case of Legend 4, though, it was more the question of whether it was possible for two particular destructive skills to cross, which is certainly credible if one hasn't seen it before with those two skills in that level. In my case, I didn't have a problem with that, because from the extremely small and super restricted skillset, I logically deduced that the skills crossing and both continuing must be possible, as the level wouldn't be solvable otherwise. So, it's just a matter of executing it correctly.

Then as Strato mentioned many times before, there's also the very common phenomenon of persistently trying something that doesn't work over and over because the person believes that it can still be made to work. The problem here is in discarding it completely, because it's quite difficult to break away from doing a particular solution that one believes might work but ultimately it doesn't. I fall victim to this a lot, but here it's mostly due to how there's some things that happen in the level that I can't wrap my head around and hence I get sucked into trying things that clearly don't work.   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2021, 08:26:51 AM »
I assume the easiest-to-execute solution for Legend 07 would then probably be IchoTolot's (see the New-Formats thread), because he had no complaints about this level whatsoever :P .

I don't think eric meant to say that let's-playing were easy, just that the solution itself could have been easier ;) . Also, Arty found this particular one off-camera, so the "doing it on camera is harder" factor (which I'm sure is a thing) doesn't apply here beyond the live parts we see in the first video about Legend 07.

Because there are four different solutions minimum to this level, I don't see the need to change anything about it, though. Because it's evidently not like there's one specific precise solution that you have to get right to make it work. The solutions differ vastly on a conceptual level, e.g. the Bomber can go in three different places, the Stoner in two different places, the Digger in several different places etc.

All solutions share a certain need for precision that just arises from the general necessity of making a Miner go through. I've faced similar issues with several SEB Lems levels, for example. In at least one case, this and the surrounding setup required also prevented me from solving the level without help at all.

That level was (click to show/hide)

Everything else seems to be a case of "picking your poison": As soon as you decide on e.g. one of the possible Bomber positions, that reduces the degrees of freedom you have for where the other skills can go. And that then leads you towards which solution you'll have to go with if you stick to that particular approach. Depending on which you end up using, the amount of required precision will vary.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2021, 09:39:14 AM »
I assume the easiest-to-execute solution for Legend 07 would then probably be IchoTolot's (see the New-Formats thread), because he had no complaints about this level whatsoever :P .

Just because he didn't leave any feedback for the level doesn't mean there wasn't any complaints about it :P Yes, it might mean that he didn't have any problems with it or didn't have anything to say about it, but it could easily go the other way, where he might have had complaints about it ;) Nevertheless, it's likely safe to say Icho's solution is the easiest to do execution-wise even though I haven't seen it myself :laugh:

Quote
I don't think eric meant to say that let's-playing were easy, just that the solution itself could have been easier ;)

You don't know that LPing is difficult until you have tried it yourself :P Before I started being an LPer, I thought it would be a cinch. Boy was I wrong! Doesn't matter if you're skilled at Lemmings or not. As I said, solving well and LPing and sharing your thoughts out loud are all difficult to do at the same time.

Quote
All solutions share a certain need for precision that just arises from the general necessity of making a Miner go through. I've faced similar issues with several SEB Lems levels, for example. In at least one case, this and the surrounding setup required also prevented me from solving the level without help at all.

That level was (click to show/hide)

Interestingly, I didn't have much problems with the former. Instead, the time limit was the main enemy. However, I had far more problems with getting the latter to work, although Flopsy has mentioned that he has left some distinct indicators in the terrain to help with it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2021, 09:56:49 AM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
Just because he didn't leave any feedback for the level doesn't mean there wasn't any complaints about it :P Yes, it might mean that he didn't have any problems with it or didn't have anything to say about it, but it could easily go the other way, where he might have had complaints about it ;) Nevertheless, it's likely safe to say Icho's solution is the easiest to do execution-wise even though I haven't seen it myself

IchoTolot did not hold back on criticising other levels he didn't like (specifically the ones with "flavourful" traps, of which there are two levels on the Legend rank :evil: ).
Therefore, I'm pretty sure he would have voiced his complaints about Legend 07, too ;) .

Quote from: kaywhyn
You don't know that LPing is difficult until you have tried it yourself :P Before I started being an LPer, I thought it would be a cinch. Boy was I wrong!

You can only speak for yourself here - I always thought it would be difficult. :P Heck, it's difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix packs all by myself. That's why I don't even think of doing it on camera. It's not me you have to convince here, if anyone, it's eric. ;) But as I said, I didn't understand his comments as a claim that LPing in general were easy either - just that there are easier solutions to Legend 07 (which is true), and that whether you LP it or not does not impact how long it takes you to find the solution off-camera.

Quote
although Flopsy has mentioned that he has left some distinct indicators in the terrain to help with it.

Yeah, as I said with regards to Legend 04: Terrain cues are only helpful if you actually recognise them as terrain cues, instead of as just seemingly arbitrary decoration ^^.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2021, 10:12:16 AM »
IchoTolot did not hold back on criticising other levels he didn't like (specifically the ones with "flavourful" traps, of which there are two levels on the Legend rank :evil: ).

Yes, but those are levels with hidden traps, which Legend 7 doesn't have :P
 
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You can only speak for yourself here - I always thought it would be difficult. :P Heck, it's difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix packs all by myself. That's why I don't even think of doing it on camera. It's not me you have to convince here, if anyone, it's eric. ;)

Practically any LPer will agree it's difficult, so I'm not alone there :P

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But as I said, I didn't understand his comments as a claim that LPing in general were easy either - just that there are easier solutions to Legend 07 (which is true), and that whether you LP it or not does not impact how long it takes you to find the solution off-camera.

I simply gathered that based on what he said about Arty's frustrations. It might had been best that we didn't see or hear his further frustrations anyway, as then who would want to see this kind of thing in an LP. I admit that while watching him attempt Legend 7 that his rage did at some points made me jump and scared me, as that's the maddest I've ever heard him in an LP :o This nice guy, all of a sudden mad.

But yes, there are easier solutions to Legend 7. It's just that sometimes we get sucked into fiddly and precise solutions. Even then, almost all the time there are cleaner and easier solutions. Plus as I said before you're not the biggest offender when it comes to a lot of pixel precision needed in a pack ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2021, 11:12:17 AM »
IchoTolot did not hold back on criticising other levels he didn't like (specifically the ones with "flavourful" traps, of which there are two levels on the Legend rank :evil: ).

Yes, but those are levels with hidden traps, which Legend 7 doesn't have :P

I know - different players complain about different things. I currently have no reason to infer he had taken issue with Legend 07, too, precisely because it's a completely different type of level. I also don't know how long it took IchoTolot to figure out his solution to Legend 07. He was pretty fast at solving the pack overall. I sometimes couldn't keep up, actually. ;)
Quote from: kaywhyn

Quote from: Strato Incendus
You can only speak for yourself here - I always thought it would be difficult. :P Heck, it's difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix packs all by myself. That's why I don't even think of doing it on camera. It's not me you have to convince here, if anyone, it's eric. ;)

Practically any LPer will agree it's difficult, so I'm not alone there :P

You've misunderstood me again. :P You made the claim that "You don't know that LPing is difficult until you've tried it yourself". I didn't question that it's diffcult; I questioned the claim that you can only know it's difficult once you've tried it yourself. I realised that from watching alone. So you don't have to make me try LPing a pack to know that it's more difficult than playing by yourself if it is already difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix levels anyway. ;)

By seeing other people struggle and raging at levels in my packs already, which, as we established, are still easier than most other custom packs by long-time forum members, I can only infer how much those same players would struggle if they had to solve those harder packs on camera. That's why even long-term Lemmings Let's-Players tend to go into post-commentary replay mode on the higher ranks of those packs, instead of continuing to solve them live on camera.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2021, 06:35:48 PM »
I also don't know how long it took IchoTolot to figure out his solution to Legend 07. He was pretty fast at solving the pack overall. I sometimes couldn't keep up, actually. ;)

Right, that's the bad thing about not solving anything in real time on camera, as you don't get to see what about the level the player struggled with and similarly if there wasn't any problems solving it. According to the timestamps of my replays, it only took me about half an hour to solve Legend 7. In contrast, it only took me about 10 minutes to solve Legend 4 :P These really quick solving times generally indicate I didn't have any problems solving them, although I personally consider myself having struggled with any level that takes me longer than 15 minutes to solve.

Lol I was the same way when I went through this pack. I was solving way too quickly, particularly when I kept coming back to post replays for both the first and second half of a rank all in the same day, that you couldn't even keep up. I still don't know if you ever gotten around to seeing all 320 replays, as well as have had a chance to read all the feedback, but well that's on you. No pressure and hurry of course, as always. You know me when it comes to being super detailed ;)


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You've misunderstood me again. :P You made the claim that "You don't know that LPing is difficult until you've tried it yourself". I didn't question that it's diffcult; I questioned the claim that you can only know it's difficult once you've tried it yourself. I realised that from watching alone. So you don't have to make me try LPing a pack to know that it's more difficult than playing by yourself if it is already difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix levels anyway. ;)

Actually, I didn't misunderstand. It was in response to "you can only speak for yourself." I'm simply saying that LPers are pretty much in agreement with me that it's difficult and hence "I'm not alone there." Again, a lot of things are difficult to tell how they would be without actually doing or trying it for oneself, but yes, I understand where you're coming from in regards to determining LPing being difficult without necessarily needing to try it, which makes perfect sense if you yourself consider a lot of the packs too difficult for you and that you have had plenty of your own struggles with them and actually needed a hint or two on some for a nudge in the right direction.

That being said, I don't exactly know how well you would fare against the very first Lemmings levels I have ever made. They're current LDC levels, though, and I know how you are with not playing contest levels in general. From the feedback I've been given, everyone's been kind enough to tell me that they consider my R1 the hardest out of my 3 entries even though they come nowhere near the hardest levels ever released in a pack. This comes as a surprise to me, as I always had this thought that I'm no good when it comes to making a difficult level, let alone a contest worthy one, but hey, surprise! Apparently I'm capable of making hard levels myself. Keep in mind these are the very first levels I have ever made ;) Also, I still rather solve than make them :P It's interesting really, as lately I've been asked by various designers if I want to test out levels for them, which I of course gladly accept the offer ;)

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By seeing other people struggle and raging at levels in my packs already, which, as we established, are still easier than most other custom packs by long-time forum members, I can only infer how much those same players would struggle if they had to solve those harder packs on camera. That's why even long-term Lemmings Let's-Players tend to go into post-commentary replay mode on the higher ranks of those packs, instead of continuing to solve them live on camera.

Luckily I haven't had to do post-commentary yet, although there have been a few levels which I needed to spend some time off camera before coming back to record and attempting to reproduce the solution by hand rather than load a replay. Even if I encounter a level that I've already played and solved before, in general I don't ever load replays in my LPs. I don't mind sitting through and trying to figure out a level all over again, just because it's kind of beneficial to do so, especially to exercise one's mental thinking. Also, if I generally can't get a level solved after at least two videos, then I spend time off camera with it.

Of course, this might have to change with some future packs I LP. Here, I'm thinking LPV and LPO2 might need post-commentary after some point, but I would only do this if it's clear that I'm just not enjoying myself solving these packs on camera and I wasn't liking the persona I was putting on on camera. I've done so many LPs at this point, and except for maybe a level or so where I kind of raged (I say "kind of" because it kind of borders on me nearly erupting out into fury but it's clear that I'm flustered and slowly getting annoyed based on my tone in the video), I seem to have a lot of patience compared to most when solving on camera.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2021, 12:28:11 PM »
Welp, I have hit a solid brick wall in the Encore rank, and that brick wall's name is "Here comes the flood". No matter what I do, I swear you are one skill short of solving it.

The worst part is I remember struggling heavily with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. However, I do not remember if I ever solved it, nor do I have a replay of the solution that works on this version of the level. I always end up with the lemming who gets all of the pickup skills unable to reach the exit due to climbing left and into the ghostbuster trap. I either need one extra destructive skill to free him, or one extra builder to avoid the trap. I don't see any way through it.

A hint would be most appreciated, as this level I will be solving off-camera.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2021, 02:43:29 PM »
Welp, I have hit a solid brick wall in the Encore rank, and that brick wall's name is "Here comes the flood". No matter what I do, I swear you are one skill short of solving it.

The worst part is I remember struggling heavily with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. However, I do not remember if I ever solved it, nor do I have a replay of the solution that works on this version of the level. I always end up with the lemming who gets all of the pickup skills unable to reach the exit due to climbing left and into the ghostbuster trap. I either need one extra destructive skill to free him, or one extra builder to avoid the trap. I don't see any way through it.

A hint would be most appreciated, as this level I will be solving off-camera.

Ah, yes, Here Comes the Flood. If I'm not mistaken, this was originally earlier in the Moist rank in Lemmicks, but Strato ended up moving it to near the end of the rank because of how people have said that it was too hard for its position. Indeed, this sounds to have been the right decision to move it further down the rank and hence it's near the end of the Encore rank in LWT. Honestly, I didn't have too much trouble with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. It sounds like you're using a skill incorrectly somewhere (I'm guessing it's the cloner) or you're not sure what to do with the skills you have left. Without seeing your LP, I'm not sure which it is. Indeed, I just watched Flopsy's LP of Lemmicks and he wasn't able to solve the level himself.

Anyway, here's a hint(s):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 02:55:49 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2021, 09:20:15 AM »
Thanks a lot, kaywhyn! :thumbsup: Not only were you faster than me - you also managed to phrase the hint in a better way than I could have done. :D

At least I'm glad to hear it's a puzzle challenge that's giving Arty hard times, not execution difficulty. With those Encore levels, especially those taken from Paralems, you never know. :evil:

But yes, "Here comes the flood" is indeed from Lemmicks, and one of my better levels to date. Also, it was one of the few that I could transfer to 10.13 and New Formats without changing anything significant about the solution.
I just had to swap out the Swimmers for Walkers.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2021, 03:27:46 AM »
Haha thanks for the kind words! ;) Indeed, when I give hints, I always do it in such a way so as to not spoil any of the solution and still allow the player to figure it out for him/herself, as my goal is to help players improve their solving/critical thinking. If I ever end up making a level pack, you can expect this same hint system I've been using :P

As I suspected, the end part was the major stumping point for Arty, as that is the part that players have trouble with on Encore 37. Also as you mentioned, the difficulty is from the puzzle being difficult itself, not the execution. He asked me to confirm if he had everything up through the upper right corner correct, for which I answered in the affirmative. Well, he replied just now saying that he literally solved the level seconds after replying asking for confirmation, and even then I simply copied/pasted the hints from the spoiler above to my reply on YT and asked how he can use the remaining skills to get the level solved. Here, I was confident that he would be able to figure it out from there, all while I still didn't give anything away, but as it turns out my reply wasn't needed, as he had solved it shortly after he had replied :laugh:

Well, congrats Arty on solving Encore 37! :thumbsup:   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2021, 10:53:08 PM »
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 02:10:43 AM by Colorful Arty »
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2021, 09:34:31 PM »
Well done, Arty! :thumbsup: Congratulations! :tal-gold::tal-gold::tal-gold: I'm already curious to see how you did on the final level!

:party:

I assume the second-to-last level was a cakewalk, since any backroutes possibly present on that one are somewhat part of the plan. :evil: Thus, your final video probably focuses almost entirely on "The Grand Puzzle", I'd predict.

Also, I assume the last two levels had their preview texts displayed correctly, given that any previous examples of falsely-matched preview texts were duplicates, rather than being moved to a different level completely. (I think the levels that incorrectly displayed the preview texts for Groupie 39 and 40 were Groupie 29 and 30, so you can see that for a time, each rank was indeed supposed to only have 30 levels.)



The meme didn't get displayed to me at first, so I thought you had posted an empty comment on purpose because your struggles with Groupie 38 had rendered you "speechless". So I just scrapped the entire comment I was about to write based on that assumption.

(Even though I'm pretty certain you can't actually make an empty post here on the forums, and having watched your latest video to the end, Groupie 38 didn't seem nearly as bad as some other levels that required destructive skills to go through.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels