Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]  (Read 44448 times)

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2021, 09:39:14 AM »
I assume the easiest-to-execute solution for Legend 07 would then probably be IchoTolot's (see the New-Formats thread), because he had no complaints about this level whatsoever :P .

Just because he didn't leave any feedback for the level doesn't mean there wasn't any complaints about it :P Yes, it might mean that he didn't have any problems with it or didn't have anything to say about it, but it could easily go the other way, where he might have had complaints about it ;) Nevertheless, it's likely safe to say Icho's solution is the easiest to do execution-wise even though I haven't seen it myself :laugh:

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I don't think eric meant to say that let's-playing were easy, just that the solution itself could have been easier ;)

You don't know that LPing is difficult until you have tried it yourself :P Before I started being an LPer, I thought it would be a cinch. Boy was I wrong! Doesn't matter if you're skilled at Lemmings or not. As I said, solving well and LPing and sharing your thoughts out loud are all difficult to do at the same time.

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All solutions share a certain need for precision that just arises from the general necessity of making a Miner go through. I've faced similar issues with several SEB Lems levels, for example. In at least one case, this and the surrounding setup required also prevented me from solving the level without help at all.

That level was (click to show/hide)

Interestingly, I didn't have much problems with the former. Instead, the time limit was the main enemy. However, I had far more problems with getting the latter to work, although Flopsy has mentioned that he has left some distinct indicators in the terrain to help with it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2021, 09:56:49 AM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
Just because he didn't leave any feedback for the level doesn't mean there wasn't any complaints about it :P Yes, it might mean that he didn't have any problems with it or didn't have anything to say about it, but it could easily go the other way, where he might have had complaints about it ;) Nevertheless, it's likely safe to say Icho's solution is the easiest to do execution-wise even though I haven't seen it myself

IchoTolot did not hold back on criticising other levels he didn't like (specifically the ones with "flavourful" traps, of which there are two levels on the Legend rank :evil: ).
Therefore, I'm pretty sure he would have voiced his complaints about Legend 07, too ;) .

Quote from: kaywhyn
You don't know that LPing is difficult until you have tried it yourself :P Before I started being an LPer, I thought it would be a cinch. Boy was I wrong!

You can only speak for yourself here - I always thought it would be difficult. :P Heck, it's difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix packs all by myself. That's why I don't even think of doing it on camera. It's not me you have to convince here, if anyone, it's eric. ;) But as I said, I didn't understand his comments as a claim that LPing in general were easy either - just that there are easier solutions to Legend 07 (which is true), and that whether you LP it or not does not impact how long it takes you to find the solution off-camera.

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although Flopsy has mentioned that he has left some distinct indicators in the terrain to help with it.

Yeah, as I said with regards to Legend 04: Terrain cues are only helpful if you actually recognise them as terrain cues, instead of as just seemingly arbitrary decoration ^^.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2021, 10:12:16 AM »
IchoTolot did not hold back on criticising other levels he didn't like (specifically the ones with "flavourful" traps, of which there are two levels on the Legend rank :evil: ).

Yes, but those are levels with hidden traps, which Legend 7 doesn't have :P
 
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You can only speak for yourself here - I always thought it would be difficult. :P Heck, it's difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix packs all by myself. That's why I don't even think of doing it on camera. It's not me you have to convince here, if anyone, it's eric. ;)

Practically any LPer will agree it's difficult, so I'm not alone there :P

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But as I said, I didn't understand his comments as a claim that LPing in general were easy either - just that there are easier solutions to Legend 07 (which is true), and that whether you LP it or not does not impact how long it takes you to find the solution off-camera.

I simply gathered that based on what he said about Arty's frustrations. It might had been best that we didn't see or hear his further frustrations anyway, as then who would want to see this kind of thing in an LP. I admit that while watching him attempt Legend 7 that his rage did at some points made me jump and scared me, as that's the maddest I've ever heard him in an LP :o This nice guy, all of a sudden mad.

But yes, there are easier solutions to Legend 7. It's just that sometimes we get sucked into fiddly and precise solutions. Even then, almost all the time there are cleaner and easier solutions. Plus as I said before you're not the biggest offender when it comes to a lot of pixel precision needed in a pack ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2021, 11:12:17 AM »
IchoTolot did not hold back on criticising other levels he didn't like (specifically the ones with "flavourful" traps, of which there are two levels on the Legend rank :evil: ).

Yes, but those are levels with hidden traps, which Legend 7 doesn't have :P

I know - different players complain about different things. I currently have no reason to infer he had taken issue with Legend 07, too, precisely because it's a completely different type of level. I also don't know how long it took IchoTolot to figure out his solution to Legend 07. He was pretty fast at solving the pack overall. I sometimes couldn't keep up, actually. ;)
Quote from: kaywhyn

Quote from: Strato Incendus
You can only speak for yourself here - I always thought it would be difficult. :P Heck, it's difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix packs all by myself. That's why I don't even think of doing it on camera. It's not me you have to convince here, if anyone, it's eric. ;)

Practically any LPer will agree it's difficult, so I'm not alone there :P

You've misunderstood me again. :P You made the claim that "You don't know that LPing is difficult until you've tried it yourself". I didn't question that it's diffcult; I questioned the claim that you can only know it's difficult once you've tried it yourself. I realised that from watching alone. So you don't have to make me try LPing a pack to know that it's more difficult than playing by yourself if it is already difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix levels anyway. ;)

By seeing other people struggle and raging at levels in my packs already, which, as we established, are still easier than most other custom packs by long-time forum members, I can only infer how much those same players would struggle if they had to solve those harder packs on camera. That's why even long-term Lemmings Let's-Players tend to go into post-commentary replay mode on the higher ranks of those packs, instead of continuing to solve them live on camera.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2021, 06:35:48 PM »
I also don't know how long it took IchoTolot to figure out his solution to Legend 07. He was pretty fast at solving the pack overall. I sometimes couldn't keep up, actually. ;)

Right, that's the bad thing about not solving anything in real time on camera, as you don't get to see what about the level the player struggled with and similarly if there wasn't any problems solving it. According to the timestamps of my replays, it only took me about half an hour to solve Legend 7. In contrast, it only took me about 10 minutes to solve Legend 4 :P These really quick solving times generally indicate I didn't have any problems solving them, although I personally consider myself having struggled with any level that takes me longer than 15 minutes to solve.

Lol I was the same way when I went through this pack. I was solving way too quickly, particularly when I kept coming back to post replays for both the first and second half of a rank all in the same day, that you couldn't even keep up. I still don't know if you ever gotten around to seeing all 320 replays, as well as have had a chance to read all the feedback, but well that's on you. No pressure and hurry of course, as always. You know me when it comes to being super detailed ;)


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You've misunderstood me again. :P You made the claim that "You don't know that LPing is difficult until you've tried it yourself". I didn't question that it's diffcult; I questioned the claim that you can only know it's difficult once you've tried it yourself. I realised that from watching alone. So you don't have to make me try LPing a pack to know that it's more difficult than playing by yourself if it is already difficult enough for me to solve custom NeoLemmix levels anyway. ;)

Actually, I didn't misunderstand. It was in response to "you can only speak for yourself." I'm simply saying that LPers are pretty much in agreement with me that it's difficult and hence "I'm not alone there." Again, a lot of things are difficult to tell how they would be without actually doing or trying it for oneself, but yes, I understand where you're coming from in regards to determining LPing being difficult without necessarily needing to try it, which makes perfect sense if you yourself consider a lot of the packs too difficult for you and that you have had plenty of your own struggles with them and actually needed a hint or two on some for a nudge in the right direction.

That being said, I don't exactly know how well you would fare against the very first Lemmings levels I have ever made. They're current LDC levels, though, and I know how you are with not playing contest levels in general. From the feedback I've been given, everyone's been kind enough to tell me that they consider my R1 the hardest out of my 3 entries even though they come nowhere near the hardest levels ever released in a pack. This comes as a surprise to me, as I always had this thought that I'm no good when it comes to making a difficult level, let alone a contest worthy one, but hey, surprise! Apparently I'm capable of making hard levels myself. Keep in mind these are the very first levels I have ever made ;) Also, I still rather solve than make them :P It's interesting really, as lately I've been asked by various designers if I want to test out levels for them, which I of course gladly accept the offer ;)

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By seeing other people struggle and raging at levels in my packs already, which, as we established, are still easier than most other custom packs by long-time forum members, I can only infer how much those same players would struggle if they had to solve those harder packs on camera. That's why even long-term Lemmings Let's-Players tend to go into post-commentary replay mode on the higher ranks of those packs, instead of continuing to solve them live on camera.

Luckily I haven't had to do post-commentary yet, although there have been a few levels which I needed to spend some time off camera before coming back to record and attempting to reproduce the solution by hand rather than load a replay. Even if I encounter a level that I've already played and solved before, in general I don't ever load replays in my LPs. I don't mind sitting through and trying to figure out a level all over again, just because it's kind of beneficial to do so, especially to exercise one's mental thinking. Also, if I generally can't get a level solved after at least two videos, then I spend time off camera with it.

Of course, this might have to change with some future packs I LP. Here, I'm thinking LPV and LPO2 might need post-commentary after some point, but I would only do this if it's clear that I'm just not enjoying myself solving these packs on camera and I wasn't liking the persona I was putting on on camera. I've done so many LPs at this point, and except for maybe a level or so where I kind of raged (I say "kind of" because it kind of borders on me nearly erupting out into fury but it's clear that I'm flustered and slowly getting annoyed based on my tone in the video), I seem to have a lot of patience compared to most when solving on camera.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2021, 12:28:11 PM »
Welp, I have hit a solid brick wall in the Encore rank, and that brick wall's name is "Here comes the flood". No matter what I do, I swear you are one skill short of solving it.

The worst part is I remember struggling heavily with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. However, I do not remember if I ever solved it, nor do I have a replay of the solution that works on this version of the level. I always end up with the lemming who gets all of the pickup skills unable to reach the exit due to climbing left and into the ghostbuster trap. I either need one extra destructive skill to free him, or one extra builder to avoid the trap. I don't see any way through it.

A hint would be most appreciated, as this level I will be solving off-camera.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2021, 02:43:29 PM »
Welp, I have hit a solid brick wall in the Encore rank, and that brick wall's name is "Here comes the flood". No matter what I do, I swear you are one skill short of solving it.

The worst part is I remember struggling heavily with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. However, I do not remember if I ever solved it, nor do I have a replay of the solution that works on this version of the level. I always end up with the lemming who gets all of the pickup skills unable to reach the exit due to climbing left and into the ghostbuster trap. I either need one extra destructive skill to free him, or one extra builder to avoid the trap. I don't see any way through it.

A hint would be most appreciated, as this level I will be solving off-camera.

Ah, yes, Here Comes the Flood. If I'm not mistaken, this was originally earlier in the Moist rank in Lemmicks, but Strato ended up moving it to near the end of the rank because of how people have said that it was too hard for its position. Indeed, this sounds to have been the right decision to move it further down the rank and hence it's near the end of the Encore rank in LWT. Honestly, I didn't have too much trouble with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. It sounds like you're using a skill incorrectly somewhere (I'm guessing it's the cloner) or you're not sure what to do with the skills you have left. Without seeing your LP, I'm not sure which it is. Indeed, I just watched Flopsy's LP of Lemmicks and he wasn't able to solve the level himself.

Anyway, here's a hint(s):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 02:55:49 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2021, 09:20:15 AM »
Thanks a lot, kaywhyn! :thumbsup: Not only were you faster than me - you also managed to phrase the hint in a better way than I could have done. :D

At least I'm glad to hear it's a puzzle challenge that's giving Arty hard times, not execution difficulty. With those Encore levels, especially those taken from Paralems, you never know. :evil:

But yes, "Here comes the flood" is indeed from Lemmicks, and one of my better levels to date. Also, it was one of the few that I could transfer to 10.13 and New Formats without changing anything significant about the solution.
I just had to swap out the Swimmers for Walkers.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2021, 03:27:46 AM »
Haha thanks for the kind words! ;) Indeed, when I give hints, I always do it in such a way so as to not spoil any of the solution and still allow the player to figure it out for him/herself, as my goal is to help players improve their solving/critical thinking. If I ever end up making a level pack, you can expect this same hint system I've been using :P

As I suspected, the end part was the major stumping point for Arty, as that is the part that players have trouble with on Encore 37. Also as you mentioned, the difficulty is from the puzzle being difficult itself, not the execution. He asked me to confirm if he had everything up through the upper right corner correct, for which I answered in the affirmative. Well, he replied just now saying that he literally solved the level seconds after replying asking for confirmation, and even then I simply copied/pasted the hints from the spoiler above to my reply on YT and asked how he can use the remaining skills to get the level solved. Here, I was confident that he would be able to figure it out from there, all while I still didn't give anything away, but as it turns out my reply wasn't needed, as he had solved it shortly after he had replied :laugh:

Well, congrats Arty on solving Encore 37! :thumbsup:   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2021, 10:53:08 PM »
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 02:10:43 AM by Colorful Arty »
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #100 on: May 12, 2021, 09:34:31 PM »
Well done, Arty! :thumbsup: Congratulations! :tal-gold::tal-gold::tal-gold: I'm already curious to see how you did on the final level!

:party:

I assume the second-to-last level was a cakewalk, since any backroutes possibly present on that one are somewhat part of the plan. :evil: Thus, your final video probably focuses almost entirely on "The Grand Puzzle", I'd predict.

Also, I assume the last two levels had their preview texts displayed correctly, given that any previous examples of falsely-matched preview texts were duplicates, rather than being moved to a different level completely. (I think the levels that incorrectly displayed the preview texts for Groupie 39 and 40 were Groupie 29 and 30, so you can see that for a time, each rank was indeed supposed to only have 30 levels.)



The meme didn't get displayed to me at first, so I thought you had posted an empty comment on purpose because your struggles with Groupie 38 had rendered you "speechless". So I just scrapped the entire comment I was about to write based on that assumption.

(Even though I'm pretty certain you can't actually make an empty post here on the forums, and having watched your latest video to the end, Groupie 38 didn't seem nearly as bad as some other levels that required destructive skills to go through.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels