[NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE

[namida]

I'm having similar issues with my laptop as well; games from 2009 that used to run smoothly before now get really laggy frequently - probably because I was using Windows 7 back then, and Windows 10 takes up a lot more with regards to both space and RAM (it's not uncommon for 2 of my 4 GB RAM to be in permanent use by some kind of background processes, even when I'm not doing anything on my laptop).

Two suggestions here. Firstly, reformat your laptop (if we're both on IRC at the same time at some point, I'd be happy to walk you through this - you're going to need something to back up your important files to first (external hard drive, optical discs, Dropbox), as well as either an 8GB+ USB stick or a blank DVD). Secondly, upgrade it to at least 8GB if you're easily able to do so - if you have to take the whole laptop apart to do this you'll probably want to get a technician to help you (though it is entirely possible to DIY it), if you just have to pop off a panel on the bottom you can very easily do this yourself.

[Flopsy]

It's not really so much that the levels are difficult, I'm just really struggling to get to grips with v1.43 gain and its limitations and that is making the levels harder to beat. The amount of times I pressed clear physics and the splat ruler hotkeys in this LP is unreal, I just cannot get used to the fact that they aren't there.

I forgot to mention that in my reply it seems.

When I can afford to, I'll invest in an even higher end computer.

I'd like to point out that there is nothing wrong with Moist 9 and I barely even had a chance to attempt it when I had to stop recording so the level hasn't beaten me.

I'd also like to point out that the pack hasn't beaten me, I have just not got the time to put into it right now and I'm making that known to you rather than just keep quiet then you wonder why the videos stopped.
If the pack had beaten me, it would be going into post commentary format like Migration, Reunion and Master Degree in Lemmings did but I'm not ready to do that yet.

I do feel bad that I have to stop recording this pack for now because it really is a well done pack but the timing is just all wrong right now and I would like to point out that I fully intend on coming back to this pack in the future

There are lots of other factors coming into me giving up this pack
1. I'm about to move house
2. I'm about to start a new job which has intense training involved (factored with the moving house)
3. This LP was way behind schedule and it was near impossible to catch up.
4. While I love gimmicks, the flaws of v1.43 compared to the latest v10 of NeoLemmix are really difficult to overlook.

Regarding pack issues
1. Jumping around ranks is not really my style and it is not my LPing style, I would like to complete a rank before moving onto the next and I always play the pack in order unless I've been advised otherwise.
2. While I respect that the clear physics and splat ruler might not have been needed, it doesn't stop me from being freaked out by pressing them and nothing happening.

and namida, I'm not even considering upgrading this laptop, it's a very bad model and I'm convinced upgrading the laptop is going to have no effect on the recording issues. My CD/DVD drive falls out of this laptop on a regular basis because it is so badly put together. I've had bad experiences with computers, my last laptop died from a hard drive failure after replacing a part on it.

[Strato Incendus]

@namida:

Secondly, upgrade it to at least 8GB if you're easily able to do so - if you have to take the whole laptop apart to do this you'll probably want to get a technician to help you (though it is entirely possible to DIY it), if you just have to pop off a panel on the bottom you can very easily do this yourself.

Yeah, we just recently did that with my father's Macbook, which is also from mid-2010, so I know how it works, but thanks! The question is rather, similarly to Flopsy, whether I want to upgrade this old thing. For example, my father suggested using external graphic cards via USB 3.0, but my USB ports are all just 2.0, so that seemingly brilliant idea goes out the window right away again . Also, most modern games seem to rely on 16 GB RAM already, most certainly with their recommended settings.

So upgrading to miserly 8 GB would probably just mean delaying the inevitable, I fear .

@Flopsy:

There are lots of other factors coming into me giving up this pack
1. I'm about to move house
2. I'm about to start a new job which has intense training involved (factored with the moving house)

First of all, good luck with all that! RL comes first, of course! I was just wondering because you explicitly mentioned the difficulty of the levels.

Your last post now reads more like, apart from your generally busy schedule of course, that it's really predominantly the technical stuff surrounding this pack that's creating the difficulty in the first place .

The technical issues of 1.43 are annoying, of course, but fortunately the imho most annoying ones can be switched off easily:
- the "jumping back to previously selected skill when rewinding" setting
- the fact that there is no level list; having to write down level access codes really would have s*cked, so I'm glad it's still possible to just jump around using the arrow keys

With those two peeves out of the way, I got used to the rest of them fairly easily, because of course I had to, when designing and testing the levels .

That's one of the main reasons I'm so keen on improving this pack: I want to make sure the gimmick levels are really worth that effort of dealing with 1.43 again!

2. While I respect that the clear physics and splat ruler might not have been needed, it doesn't stop me from being freaked out by pressing them and nothing happening.

Well, in exchange you get your beloved leading zeros back...

Can't have it both ways, unfortunately.

I'd also like to point out that the pack hasn't beaten me, I have just not got the time to put into it right now and I'm making that known to you rather than just keep quiet then you wonder why the videos stopped.

Thanks for informing me this early, of course! Though it would have been a whole month left to go anyway before I even could have started to wonder. I'm still curious to see how you solved the Moist and the remaining Basic levels!

Therefore, I am probably going to upload another minor update after the (preliminary?) end of the LP on May 8th, with all the backroutes you've found so far fixed. I also wanted to update the preview text for the final level anyway.

After that, I can get back to Lemmings World Tour at last. Though those levels take a lot longer to design, because painting with level tiles Arty-style is one thing... but making levels look like real world-places on top of that a totally different one!

[Nessy]

Just letting you know that I have decided to officially LP this pack and some other packs by you as well. I personally have zero experience with gimmicks that aren't zombies and would love to see what you have come up. Based on what I have seen from Flopsy's own LP I saw a lot of good stuff and would love to get further into it. Unfortunately it will be a while, but it is definitely planned

[Strato Incendus]

Great, thanks a lot, Nessy! I'm glad to see Lemmicks sparking some more attention!

I don't think Flopsy will mind either, there are other packs that have been LPed by several people (like NepsterLems, for example), and that "overlap" is always helpful to see what different solutions different people come up with. More often than not, that means more backroutes will be found and, consequently, be fixed .

Speaking of that, it's good anyway if it still takes some time till you get started with Lemmicks, because I still have a couple of Flopsy's backroutes to fix .

[Strato Incendus]

And here is the updated version with all of Flopsy's backroutes fixed!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a35ugjpn0y6185w/Lemmicks.nxp?dl=1

(The link is the starting post should also work.)

I even managed to fix "Eye of the needle" by incorporating a pretty nasty trap placement. ^^

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It should be absolutely impossible now to allow a lemming to go into the teleporter facing to the left without that lemming getting killed instantly. I tried turning it into a stoner, and my stoner count in the skill panel did get reduced by one - but at the same time, the lemming was shot .

I will probably also update the music pack along the way as I continue to improve my custom recordings of the lemmings music (mainly timing issues, I'll have to do some more editing on my rhythm guitars, I noticed .)

This is not going to affect the rest of the music for "Lemmicks" though, so @Nessy, don't let that be a hinderance to you.

Please just make sure to download this version of the pack before you start your LP!

[Strato Incendus]

Here is another update with some further minor backroute options in the Basic rank fixed:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a35ugjpn0y6185w/Lemmicks.nxp?dl=1

(The link in the opening post also works.)

Since these are the earliest levels in the rank, it's going to affect players pretty quickly, so I suggest you update as soon as possible!

Changelog

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basic 10, "In your hands I commit my Lems": I altered the ground by the exit to be entirely made of chains, i.e. lower at the place of the drop, making the fall higher, thereby enforcing the use of a floater on the ghost lemming.

Basic 16, "Gates of Heaven": The vertical pillars were misplaced here so that lemmings could walk from one chamber with a button into the next one. I discovered that by accident while re-watching Flopsy's LP; these chambers were supposed to be closed, and now they are!

Basic 17, "Good Lem, Bad Lem": I threw in one-way arrows so that the crowd on the left has to be freed from the right, either by the other crowd or by the ghost. Since using the crowd would require building over the exit, though, and the builder is required to gain sufficient height for the crowd on the left, I believe this way I enforced using the ghost, which ultimately was what I was going for originally.

[Strato Incendus]

Just a question that came to my mind, considering the obtain loop errors that occured for some people playing Lemmings World Tour:

I remember having to search quite some time for the old versions of especially the L2 and L3 tilesets that were compatible with 1.43. Would it help if I uploaded my style folder for NeoLemmix 1.43 here, as well? Because I don't get any errors when playing this pack, but there were other people who couldn't access certain levels.

[namida]

I remember having to search quite some time for the old versions of especially the L2 and L3 tilesets that were compatible with 1.43. Would it help if I uploaded my style folder for NeoLemmix 1.43 here, as well? Because I don't get any errors when playing this pack, but there were other people who couldn't access certain levels.

When dealing with old-formats, any styles that aren't included with NeoLemmix should be built into the NXP. (This advice should be applied even to 10.13.xx at this point, as - if they aren't already broken - there is zero guarantee that the auto-download feature will continue to work in the future; there really isn't much reason to keep the files on the server now that 10.13.xx is long dead.)

Better yet, don't continue creating content for versions that are now several years out of date, then you won't have version-related issues. You bring these matters on yourself by refusing to use the current version. A lot of gimmick levels can actually be reworked into standard levels with a bit of effort (best example among my own levels would be "The Takeover" (LPII) - the solution to the current version is almost identical to the solution to the old version using the Karoshi gimmick). Radiation and Slowfreeze can often be substituted reasonably well with pickup skills. And those that can't, you can usually make a new puzzle, or at worst a X-of-everything level, from the map.

If your issue is with the new editor, you can always create your levels using the old one (you'll need old formats versions of the styles, though), and convert them (simply open then re-save them in the new editor, or build them into an NXP and run it through the convertor - though be aware the convertor can be a tad buggy when it comes to non-critical features like talismans and backgrounds); though in my opinion, while the new editor seemed annoying and weird at first, it didn't take too long to get used to.

[Strato Incendus]

I don't plan to create another gimmick pack; I just want Lemmicks to work for everyone who wants to play it . And while simple gimmicks such as wraparound can indeed be emulated with e.g. teleporters (I've done so myself repeatedly), more complex gimmicks like No gravity or Karoshi can't.

I would have loved to create such a pack for New Formats, or convert Lemmicks to New Formats. I wasn't the one advising for gimmicks to be removed! If people abused them to troll, that's their loss because they caused the gimmicks to be removed through that behaviour. The point of Lemmicks is to show that gimmicks can be used for fair level creation!

So I guess this is precisely the wrong pack where one could try to convince me to take it to New Formats, because that isn't even possible in the first place .

For Lemmings World Tour, a conversion has much more upsides, like hopefully reducing the number of tileset-mixing based crashes. The main roadblock here is the split-in two Ancient tileset that exists as "angel island" and "chaos angel" in New Formats. We're going to have to have this tileset twice - once split and once complete - in order to make any existing ancient-based levels convertable.

If your issue is with the new editor, you can always create your levels using the old one (you'll need old formats versions of the styles, though), and convert them (simply open then re-save them in the new editor, or build them into an NXP and run it through the convertor - though be aware the convertor can be a tad buggy when it comes to non-critical features like talismans and backgrounds); though in my opinion, while the new editor seemed annoying and weird at first, it didn't take too long to get used to.

My main issue with new formats currently is the horrendously ugly level preview screen. (And, by extension, the level selection window.) It just doesn't feel like playing Lemmings anymore to me. If it were possible to customise it, like pre-level texts where you can enter empty lines, maybe all this unused space could be filled out a little better. I'm curious to see what the next compromise is going to look like, because other forum members have uttered as well that the lines are a little too close together.

I have already built levels with the new editor in preparation for the introduction of the shimmier, so I'm familiar with the controls (the C key to duplicate was the most important part for me, didn't know about that before).

Creating levels in old formats with the purpose to then convert them to new formats is something I only do for my own tilesets, because if I make the effort of creating them once, I want to have them available on both platforms. I don't go so far as to create them with the old graphics tool for 1.43 and then convert them "forward" twice, but that's mainly just because I don't see the need for another gimmick pack at the moment.

Apart from that, using the old editor for new formats level creation is rather pointless - not only because of the graphic sets (and soon: skills) you can't access in it, but also because of the graphic sets you do have available that aren't available in new formats yet .

Like the remaining Gronkling tilesets: I have converted the last three remaining ones for myself (ancient, electric, and digital), I only need to get the rest of the "formal" stuff from the "how to convert a graphic set"-list out of the way.

And those that can't, you can usually make a new puzzle, or at worst a X-of-everything level, from the map.

You kind of put your weakest argument last here, because you know how much I hate X-of-everything levels. I'd rather remove a radiation or slowfreeze-based level completely and have it as it was meant to be in the original pack than turn it into something generic just for the sake of still having it in the pack.

Anyways, I copied my NeoLemmix 1.43 styles folder into my dropbox and put a link to it in the starting post. Everyone who has trouble with certain levels from this pack, download that folder and integrate it into the styles folder in your NeoLemmix 1.43 folder.

[Proxima]

If people abused them to troll, that's their loss because they caused the gimmicks to be removed through that behaviour. The point of Lemmicks is to show that gimmicks can be used for fair level creation!

You're confusing the gimmicks removal (which was before your time) with other culling discussions, e.g. fake objects. Gimmicks were removed because they made a mess of the code and stood in the way of implementing features we actually wanted to see; any new feature would have required additional code for every interaction with a gimmick. (Caveat: I'm not a coder myself, but what I've said is my understanding of the situation.)

The main roadblock here is the split-in two Ancient tileset that exists as "angel island" and "chaos angel" in New Formats. We're going to have to have this tileset twice - once split and once complete - in order to make any existing ancient-based levels convertable.

New-formats is text based, so you can open your favourite text editor and change all "ancient_piecename" to "angelisland_piecename" or whatever. I accept this would be laborious with a large number of levels, but I think namida or Simon could help you out with a conversion tool?

I'm curious to see what the next compromise is going to look like, because other forum members have uttered as well that the lines are a little too close together.

We already had a discussion on this and decided on a compromise. Link with screenshot.

[Strato Incendus]

First of all, thanks for linking to that screenshot; I've replied to that in the respective thread.

Gimmicks were removed because they made a mess of the code and stood in the way of implementing features we actually wanted to see; any new feature would have required additional code for every interaction with a gimmick.

Ah, you mean like the fencer? Okay, that's a fair point - the shimmier probably would take a lot longer to implement as well if all the gimmicks had to be considered on top of everything else. It was quite radical though to remove all gimmicks at once, except for zombies - there were clearly more and less useful ones. So while I get that things like hardworkers and no gravity must be a nightmare to code when it comes to new features, I guess things like ghost lemmings or the Karoshi gimmick were much less affected by this.

New-formats is text based, so you can open your favourite text editor and change all "ancient_piecename" to "angelisland_piecename" or whatever. I accept this would be laborious with a large number of levels, but I think namida or Simon could help you out with a conversion tool?

I don't understand why it was split up in the first place - that wasn't done to any other tileset, and not only does it not help in converting levels, it even actively prevents conversion of pre-existing levels with this style, while at the same time making the terrain pieces redundantly available. This just reeks to me like more of the "we don't care about backward compatibility" mentality that was present around the time of the formats shift .

To me it would be a lot easier to convert the entire graphic set and have it as "ancient" in new formats, just like before. Don't know how many people have built new levels with angel island and/or chaos angel in new formats in the meantime, though. But I guess it's less than the number of levels created with ancient before .

One point where I did shoot myself in the foot indeed was adding the extra pieces that were created for the original Lemmings tilesets in New Formats into my Old Formats versions as well. While the problem for the player was easily fixed by providing my styles folder in the download of Lemmings World Tour, when I try converting such a level, obviously these pieces aren't recognised and simply left blank. And sadly, I've built whole structures consisting only of these, so it's not just like "add in a missing piece here, and you can already see exactly where it has to go". I'll have to rebuild these structures by hand once I convert those levels - there aren't too many of them, though.

[namida]

One point where I did shoot myself in the foot indeed was adding the extra pieces that were created for the original Lemmings tilesets in New Formats into my Old Formats versions as well. While the problem for the player was easily fixed by providing my styles folder in the download of Lemmings World Tour, when I try converting such a level, obviously these pieces aren't recognised and simply left blank. And sadly, I've built whole structures consisting only of these, so it's not just like "add in a missing piece here, and you can already see exactly where it has to go". I'll have to rebuild these structures by hand once I convert those levels - there aren't too many of them, though.

Not at all - you just need to modify the relevant NXTT file (in data/translation) to add the new pieces to it. Very little, if anything, is hardcoded in regards to the old-to-new conversion; it reads from these files to figure out what piece number in old-formats corresponds to which name in new-formats.

Like most (if not all) NeoLemmix files that have a four-letter extension starting with NX (or alternatively: any extension starting with NX, except for NXP), these files are simply text, and you can modify them with any text editor. Just look at the existing data, it should be fairly easy to figure out how to modify it for your additional pieces.

Both NeoLemmix itself, and the NXP conversion tool, will make use of your changes to these files when you try to load levels from old-formats or one of the supported non-NeoLemmix formats. (The editor too, in practice; though on a technical level the editor doesn't understand any file other than NeoLemmix new-formats levels. If it encounters anything else, it asks NeoLemmix to convert it - so essentially, it supports any format NeoLemmix itself supports - which includes DOS levels, old-formats NeoLemmix levels, (Super)Lemmini levels, and an obscure clone I can't recall the name of, but the format was very simple and someone requested it so I added support.)

[IchoTolot]

I'm just going to link the graphic set conversion topic here again, as it explains the whole translation table thing : https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3393.0

[Strato Incendus]

Ah, okay, thanks a lot, namida and IchoTolot! For the levels in original Lemmings tilesets, this is certainly viable. For the Ancient levels, which are usually huge and consist of all kinds of pieces, this is going to be more fiddly, because a lot of pieces look very similar and it's often not clear which piece has to go where in a level.

So I text-edit the single level to add pieces to it - not the translation table of the style file, right? Because if I did the latter, we'd end up with two versions of Fire, Pillar, Marble, and Brick again.

All of this is only relevant to Lemmings World Tour, though, not to Lemmicks .

and an obscure clone I can't recall the name of, but the format was very simple and someone requested it so I added support.)

Maybe WinLems? That was what I used before I discovered NeoLemmix.