Author Topic: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE  (Read 48882 times)

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Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2020, 11:19:06 PM »
cool thanks both youre slowly but surely dragging me into learning what to do willlem before you know it I'll be designing levels (but not really) :thumbsup:

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2020, 02:19:48 AM »
cool thanks both youre slowly but surely dragging me into learning what to do willlem before you know it I'll be designing levels (but not really) :thumbsup:

Looking forward to seeing your first level! :lemcat:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2020, 10:27:23 AM »
Just be aware that, if you want to design gimmick levels like these ones right here, you're also going to need the old NeoLemmix editor for version 1.43. It should be accessible via the NeoLemmix homepage under "old versions", but I've attached the one I'm using again (well, I'm not actively using it at the moment, but I still have it, and since WillLem suggested a while ago to eventually make a Lemmicks 2 pack, who knows... :evil: ).

Creation of content for outdated versions is of course discouraged by the NeoLemmix community, but by now, New-Formats NeoLemmix has developed so far away from this ancient version that it's almost a different engine. There are three skills which NeoLemmix 1.43 doesn't have, compared to the newest version of New Formats (Fencer, Shimmier, and Jumper, in that order). But in exchange, it has all those gimmicks. And though it looks like wrap may return to New-Formats NeoLemmix eventually, it will most likely look different (infinite scrolling, rather than lemmings leaving the level at one edge and re-entering at the other). Karoshi won't come back, nor will SuperLemming (and those were the only gimmicks even brought up by people as requests for re-introduction).

So yeah, I think there's definitely still design space available for a Lemmicks 2... :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2020, 02:56:10 PM »
WillLem suggested a while ago to eventually make a Lemmicks 2 pack

I'm thinking Lemmicks 2 should be much easier than Lemmicks, so that the gimmicks, rather than the puzzles, are the main feature of the pack. That way, the player can simply concentrate on having fun with the unusual gameplay styles that the gimmicks themselves present, rather than having to tackle challenging level solutions as well. In all honesty, there are very few levels in Lemmicks that I've actually solved: most of them I've skipped past after a few tries, which is a shame because it has the potential to be a really fun pack.

Not that very difficult levels aren't fun, it's just that if you're playing a level and it's the first time you've ever seen a particular gimmick, really the level needs to be a gimme (as do the next few after it), otherwise I can imagine most players will lose interest quickly.

I'd also suggest only using orig and ohno tilesets, so that the player is learning the mechanics of each gimmick in a familiar setting, again at least for the first few levels in each rank.

The pack should ideally be a showcase of the best gimmicks: it's unfortunate that a lot of the really good ones got culled along with the ones that, frankly, are just annoying; I can see why a lot of these weren't very popular. However, we can bring some of the more wholesome ones back in a fun, enjoyable way which make a good case for the presence of gimmicks in a Lemmings game.

Here's what I'd suggest as a pack structure, starting with gimmicks that are easier to get used to after a few levels and then moving onto the more challenging ones later in the pack:

Rank 1: Wrap (8 levels)
Rank 2: Backwards Walkers (8 levels)
Rank 3: No Gravity (8 levels)
Rank 4: Rising Water (8 levels)
Rank 5: Frenzy (8 levels)
Rank 6: SuperLemming (with Frenzy) (8 levels)
Rank 7: Karoshi (with Mixed Gimmicks) (16 levels)
Rank 8: Bedlam (Mixed Gimmicks) (16 levels)

Note that I haven't included ranks for Turn-on-assign, Instant pickups, Countdown-other-skills, Non-fatal bombers - these are gimmicks which I think are best being featured occasionally throughout rather than having an entire rank devoted to them (instant pickups, for example, is one that loses its novelty very quickly); however, they're good enough ideas to appear occasionally.

I'd suggest leaving these out of the pack altogether, unless you feel strongly otherwise: Hardworkers, Permanent blockers, Non-permanent skills, Lazy Lemmings. These all have far more annoyance value than novelty value.

The main thing I'd emphasise for this pack is that it's straightforward in terms of its puzzle content, at least for the first 4 or 5 levels of each rank. Of course, the last few levels in each rank can present more of a challenge once the player is used to the gimmick.

Let me know if you're in agreement with this, and if so then it can be a fun ongoing side project for us to add levels to every now and then when we get good ideas. 8-)

Incidentally, is there a way to customise the skill panel for packs in 1.43?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 03:07:08 PM by WillLem »

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2020, 03:43:31 PM »
I have to be honest I gave up after 6 levels I just don't enjoy the older players that much anything above 10 is fine as that has most of the things I like.

I really wish I could design levels but I don't think I have the skill or patience.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2020, 06:53:09 PM »
Thanks for your suggestions, WillLem!

I'm happy that mantha16 posted in the meantime, though, because her post is a great example of the fact that, contrary to what you seem to assume, the main thing keeping people from diving deeper into Lemmicks, as far as I can tell, is indeed not the difficulty, but the fact that it relies on an older and "clunkier" version of the NeoLemmix player, without many of the modern conveniences people have grown accustomed to.

I know you come from a different design philosophy, so I can understand that the puzzle difficulty might be what makes the pack less enjoyable for you personally.

This also reflects in the gimmicks you suggest to choose for Lemmicks 2. If you have a look through this thread, you will notice that neither No Gravity, nor Frenzy, nor SuperLemming were particularly liked by the community at large. Some people outright refused to play the Cosmic rank because of the No Gravity gimmick - not because of the puzzle difficulty.

Puzzle difficulty was only explicitly mentioned by people in context of the Basic rank, i.e. the only one without any gimmicks. I guess that was because some expected it to be an auto-solve rank, rather than one that was designed to get them used to the changed physics, such as solid level sides, again. :evil: This caught some people off-guard, even though it was mentioned in the beginning and emphasized repeatedly on several levels of the Basic rank.

Rising water also introduces a timing-based challenge into levels that can be conceptualised more as execution difficulty. Only in the levels where the water is used as a "lift" for Swimmers can it be considered part of the puzzle; otherwise, it's just a time limit in object form.

In contrast, instant pickup skills, turn on assign, and countdown other skills are completely "fair" in the sense of predictable from the start of the level.

The majority of the NeoLemmix community, as far as I can tell, favours challenging puzzle-style levels. Using NeoLemmix 1.43 for a pack is already going to reduce the number of potentially interested people drastically. Straying from the core philosophy of NeoLemmix on top of that might just reduce that number to zero.

Especially Frenzy in combination with SuperLemming was removed from the Hasty rank for good reason (see the previous pages as well as the Lemmicks development thread) and definitely NOT what most people in the NeoLemmix community would consider "fun" ;) .

There are still a couple of Frenzy-SuperLemming levels on the Bedlam rank, but I'm thinking about fixing those levels as well.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 07:53:33 AM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2020, 07:18:31 PM »
Thanks for your suggestions, WillLem!

I'm happy that mantha16 posted in the meantime, though, because his post is a great example of the fact that, contrary to what you seem to assume, the main thing keeping people from diving deeper into Lemmicks, as far as I can tell, is indeed not the difficulty, but the fact that it relies on an older and "clunkier" version of the NeoLemmix player, without many of the modern conveniences people have grown accustomed to.

I know you come from a different design philosophy, so I can understand that the puzzle difficulty might be what makes the pack less enjoyable for you personally.

This also reflects in the gimmicks you suggest to choose for Lemmicks 2. If you have a look through this thread, you will notice that neither No Gravity, nor Frenzy, nor SuperLemming were particularly liked by the community at large. Some people outright refused to play the Cosmic rank because of the No Gravity gimmick - not because of the puzzle difficulty.

Puzzle difficulty was only explicitly mentioned by people in context of the Basic rank, i.e. the only one without any gimmicks. I guess that was because some expected it to be an auto-solve rank, rather than one that was designed to get them used to the changed physics, such as solid level sides, again. :evil: This caught some people off-guard, even though it was mentioned in the beginning and emphasized repeatedly on several levels of the Basic rank.

Rising water also introduces a timing-based challenge into levels that can be conceptualised more as execution difficulty. Only in the levels where the water is used as a "lift" for Swimmers can it be considered part of the puzzle; otherwise, it's just a time limit in object form.

In contrast, instant pickup skills, turn on assign, and countdown other skills are completely "fair" in the sense of predictable from the start of the level.

The majority of the NeoLemmix community, as far as I can tell, favours challenging puzzle-style levels. Using NeoLemmix 1.43 for a pack is already going to reduce the number of potentially interested people drastically. Straying from the core philosophy of NeoLemmix on top of that might just reduce that number to zero.

Especially Frenzy in combination with SuperLemming was removed from the Hasty rank for good reason (see the previous pages as well as the Lemmicks development thread) and definitely NOT what most people in the NeoLemmix community would consider "fun" ;) .

There are still a couple of Frenzy-SuperLemming levels on the Bedlam rank, but I'm thinking about fixing those levels as well.

*I'm a her

I'm an average player at best and I rarely complete packs because they get too difficult for me.

I like the decorative tilesets but usually end up playing in clear physics mode as the decorative tilesets hurt my age weary eyes

I have always wanted to play lemmicks but it is the player that has put me off

I like levels that are challenging but not insane and I think for a lot of forum members that are active they are way more versed in the game so they want tough levels which is understandable.  I personally wish more people designed easier packs that can occupy my time but not be so difficult i give up. 

 

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2020, 07:19:39 PM »
also no more zombies I loathe zombie levels and the honeycomb tileset lol

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2020, 08:02:14 AM »
Quote
*I'm a her

Oops, sorry, there was no info in your profile, and I instinctively thought of your nickname being based on the animal, a "manta", which is male in my native language (German, "der Manta") :D .

Quote
I personally wish more people designed easier packs that can occupy my time but not be so difficult i give up.

Yes, this is an issue I have repeatedly criticised myself. My earlier packs are a lot easier (Pit Lems and Paralems), however they use a lot of outdated features and are therefore not easily updated to New Formats. I'm working on a pack that joins levels fom Paralems, Pit Lems, and Lemmicks and converts them to New Formats, but this takes some time - checking whether all the solutions still work in New Formats, rearranging the levels by difficulty etc.

Since you day everything starting from version 10 is fine for you, you could give Old-Formats Pit Lems a shot. ;) Paralems probably has too many Zombie levels for your taste, Pit Lems just has a select few.

Plus, there's a completed Let's Play on YouTube by nin10doadict, so you can easily look up the solutions in case you get stuck (well, unless nin10doadict backrouted the level and I fixed it in the meantime :D ).

For version 10, there are also a couple of other great, yet unconverted packs, like Colorful Arty's SubLems, which has an excellent difficulty curve.

A couple of older and easier packs have also been converted to New Formats; they just fly under the radar because they're older, I guess (GeoffLems and MazuLems, for example, come to mind). ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2020, 12:35:20 PM »
well I'm enjoying designing levels and my husband is really good at lemmings puns so he's going to help me name levels in future pack, for my first pack I'm staying small and designing levels I'd like playing.

Probably my favourite pack is Vamplemmings even though it doesn't add properly and you have to add levels individually to work properly.

I also liked reverselemmings, oh no more reverse lemmings,

There are some packs where I really like the first levels but they get tough for me very quickly like a master degree in lemmings, lemmings squared

I've started most of the packs and enjoyed them got quite far into geofflems and dovelems

pitlems I've played in the past and enjoyed but periodically I delete everything and start again (usually when I have so many packs it starts to take ages to load neolemmix) so I will have to try again.

I've completed lemmings, ohno more lemmings covox lemmings and the additional official packs apart from like 3 or 4 levels.

I enjoy a lot of Willlems packs but he designs some really toughys so I don't get too far into them I especially love the aesthetic of Leminas

as for my name its half of my actual name and is what my grandad used to call me as a child.  if I went for a german animal name I'd go Meerschweinchen cos I have two of them and I like how the word looks

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2020, 04:57:54 PM »
Another fairly easy pack I forgot to tell you about is CasuaLemmings, also by nin10doadict, but arguably a lot easier than Lemmings Squared. It has only been updated to New Formats recently, which is why I wasn't completely aware of it when I wrote this morning. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2020, 05:35:44 PM »
I enjoy a lot of Willlems packs but he designs some really toughys so I don't get too far into them I especially love the aesthetic of Leminas

It's one thing I learned quite quickly - it's easier to design harder levels, because you know the solution! The line between an easy level that's fun & engaging and an easy level that's boring & trivial is a very fine one!

Right now I'm concentrating on what makes a good "easy" level. I have plans to make an LP series playing through just the first ranks of a bunch of level packs by way of research (and entertainment, of course!).

Also, you can expect Lemminas II to be much easier than the first one: I'll be making sure that it never gets harder than about Taxing difficulty, maybe with a few Mayhem-style ones thrown in the last rank for good measure.

Incidentally, your levels are no pushovers! Like I said - it's easier to make harder levels. ;P

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2020, 05:47:43 PM »


Incidentally, your levels are no pushovers! Like I said - it's easier to make harder levels. ;P

but they all qualify as easy right?

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2020, 09:26:45 PM »
but they all qualify as easy right?

I'd put them in either Tricky or Crazy, maybe even Wild - so, easy-medium difficulty. They all take a little bit of figuring out, it's not always immediately obvious what needs to happen.

That said, figuring out a solution to these happens fairly quickly given the small size of the levels, and there are multiple possible solutions, so your levels are the good kind of easy. :thumbsup:

Online kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix 1.43] Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! ANOTHER UPDATE
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2020, 10:29:55 AM »
I just started playing this pack several days ago, and I got to say that I'm really enjoying this pack a lot. I absolutely agree with Flopsy, this is indeed a wonderful pack, as well as with the assessment that it's not a difficult pack, as so far I have managed to solve everything up through Hasty 10 with relative ease. For the most part, the levels do indeed get harder as you progress along in the ranks, but they're not too hard.  Surprisingly, Neolemmix v1.43 has not been all that annoying for me at all, but that's probably because I had just beaten Giga's Resident packs a month or two just before playing Lemmicks, so I guess the timing was just right so that I'm very used to the features compatible with v1.43 only, even when I have played packs on v10.13 in between the playing of Giga's packs and your Lemmicks pack. For example, I got used to the solid sides extremely quickly, although I still occasionally forgot to take advantage of it when containing the crowd or in the solution. Your pack lives on, Strato!

Anyway, I have just beaten 100 levels total, and I thought would be a good time to send my replays. The replays start at Circular 2 and go all the way through Hasty 10, in order. I don't have any Basic or Moist replays, but if you want the ones to Moist I could always replay them, which shouldn't take too long now that I know the solution to all the Moist levels. With what I've played so far, I'm enjoying these gimmicks a lot more than I thought I would. Circular with the wrap gimmick is probably my most favorite, while other gimmicks like turn on assign I would often forget that the lemmings turn, or how backwards walkers I would forget the lemmings would start walking backwards after finishing performing a skill so that timing placement of skills is crucial. Ephermal with the lazy lemmings gimmick was somewhat annoying, alleviated by the fact that the levels in which the lazy lemmings gimmick was active weren't massive spam fests with the constructive/destructive skills. Some remarks on Basic and Moist:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now feedback for Circular through Hasty ranks:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

70 more levels to go. I can do this! Once again, excellent pack Strato! I'm definitely looking forward to the collaboration pack between you and WillLem for the second Lemmicks pack. Also, I doubt I'm the one who has made the most progress on this level pack.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0