Lemmings Forums Level Contest #11 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

Started by namida, August 23, 2016, 03:37:43 AM

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namida

Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.

Rule 1 Levels (Two lemmings, at least one permanent skill, no more than one of each permanent skill)
[V6] BulletRide's "Complications" (NeoLemmix)
[V16] Crane's "The Wishing Well" (NeoLemmix)
[V2] geoo's "Inseparables" (Lix)
[V1] Gronkling's "Future Temple" (NeoLemmix)
[V3] IchoTolot's "The Machine" (NeoLemmix)


Rule 2 Levels (One of each skill)
[V3] Colorful Arty's "Lego my lemmings!" (NeoLemmix)
[V3] Crane's "Heaven and Earth" (NeoLemmix)
[V3] Nepster's "Oh Yes, Here Again!" (Lix)


Rule 3 Levels (No constructive skills)
[V5] Colorful Arty's "Hailfire Peaks" (NeoLemmix)
[V3] geoo's "The New Compression Method" (Lix)
[V1] Gronkling's "Ursa Miner? Ursa MAJOR!" (NeoLemmix)
[V2] IchoTolot's "Harkonnen Force" (NeoLemmix)
[V2] Simon's "Flying Squirrels" (Lix)
[V3] zanzindorf's "Bird Knight" (NeoLemmix*)

* This entry was initially submitted as a SuperLemmini level but was later switched to NeoLemmix.




I assume by now everyone knows how to play these levels, but if you don't, just ask and someone will help you.

EDIT: If someone posts a replay for your level with an "nxrp" extension rather than "lrb", you need the V1.47n experimental version of NeoLemmix to view it. Please be aware (for late submissions / future contests) that at the moment, the contest rules still state that levels should be designed for V1.43n-F - so while it's fine if they work on V1.47n, or to post solutions that were achieved on V1.47n, it is not currently permitted to submit levels that only work on V1.47n.

Two of the levels use custom graphic sets that aren't auto-downloadable, you can download these here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3w9qcpye1vz1al/Contest11_Styles.zip?dl=0
Additionally, several of the levels have custom music. You can download these here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4m2nmuaitzzgsk/Contest11_Music.zip?dl=0
If you're playing via the NXP, put the music files in a "music" subfolder of your NeoLemmix folder.

The update phase will remain open until 00:00 on 13 September 2016 (UTC), subject to the usual extension rule. Late submissions are also allowed until the update phase ends.

Levels ZIP/ NXP last updated: 16/09/06 19:28 UTC. See above list for which versions are included in the download; there may be newer versions available in the update topic.
If updating from a version prior to 16/09/05 12:49 UTC and using the ZIP of individual level files, you'll need to redownload the styles too. This is not nessecary if using the NXP, as the updated NXP contains the updated style.
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Simon

Replays for both geoo levels, and the intended route for mine. I haven't solved Nepster's. I'll look at the NL levels with Icho.

Inseparables looks backrouted. At first, the level seemed easy and thrown-together (geoo in IRC: "I used only 3 different blocks"), but there is lots of subtlety. Looking forward to re-solving this, if the replay is deemed backroute.

NewCompression has a stacked hatch on the left, I didn't notice right away and planned differently. Later, I found a solution that feels intended.

NewCompression is prone to hack solutions that fail barely. I've attached a 6/8 replay with precision flinging. I managed 7/8 with slight variations, but didn't save. I believe geoo doesn't want strong red herrings here -- can you discourage such precision flinging in the level's design?

-- Simon


IchoTolot

Quote from: Colorful Arty on August 23, 2016, 03:25:10 PM
I just started a Let's Play series on the contest 11 levels. Link to the playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQHiUcBinBlBleci5WxKXYH3ANxm6Zvwt

That's a backroute for my level, but it's easily fixed with some extra buttons (hopefully) ;). Even my replay for it still solves 8-)

Will start a series of my own later today or tomorrow when the nxp is up. Will probably try to play the levels in the exp version.


IchoTolot

Quote from: joshescue18 on August 23, 2016, 04:36:07 PM
I solved some of the R1 levels.

Exactly Colorful Arty's backroute just on the opposite side. Your solution won't be possible anymore with the update I posted ;)

Nepster

Here are some replays for NeoLemmix levels. (recorded with V1.43)

Bulletride

I am not such a fan of this level. A few places where the skill assignments need to be more precise than necessary (e.g. the builder assigned to the climber in the middle of the level) and for such a big level not enough interaction between the two lemmings (i.e. only the one-way-wall at the beginning and the small gap with the stacking in the middle).

Colorful Arty

Hailfire Peaks: Fairly sure, that this is a glaring backroute.
(I haven't yet played the other level, because I forgot to download the style)

Crane

The Wishing Well: Looks pretty backrouty. Currently not a good level and more of a 1-lemming level instead of a 2-lemming level.
Heaven and Earth: Not yet solved, but please make it more obvious that bashing from the left does not work. Currently the terrain is terribly misleading.

Gronkling

Future Temple: Nice level and not too hard. With this style, I always confuse normal terrain with steel (because steel pieces have so many different looks). This is of course not your fault, but it was still annoying for me, because my first two solutions didn't work due to this mistake.
Ursa Miner? Ursa MAJOR!: Looks nice, but apart from the trick at the very beginning, the level is pretty standard and requires rather precise timing at the end.

 IchoTolot (only ranting about the style)

The yellow trap is pretty visible, but the brown one... :devil::sick::evil::sick::devil::sick::evil::sick::devil:
I tried "The Machine" and found a solution, only that suddenly one lemming was missing :lem-mindblown:. Ok, framestep back until finding the trap. So I had to find a new approach. Two minutes later I had another one, but unfortunately I just forgot about the trap again! When the trap surprised my a third time another five minutes later, I rage-quit the level! Then I tried "Harkonnen Force" and solved it... or so I thought! More than half of my lemmings vanished again somewhere when they really should have walked straight into the exits! Again I completely missed half of all traps in this level.
Summary: This &@!* trap must become a LOT more visible! Until this is done, I will never ever play any Dune style level again.

Edit: Now with replays as attachment.

IchoTolot

Quote from: Nepster on August 23, 2016, 05:39:44 PM
Here are some replays for NeoLemmix levels. (recorded with V1.43)

Bulletride

I am not such a fan of this level. A few places where the skill assignments need to be more precise than necessary (e.g. the builder assigned to the climber in the middle of the level) and for such a big level not enough interaction between the two lemmings (i.e. only the one-way-wall at the beginning and the small gap with the stacking in the middle).

Colorful Arty

Hailfire Peaks: Fairly sure, that this is a glaring backroute.
(I haven't yet played the other level, because I forgot to download the style)

Crane

The Wishing Well: Looks pretty backrouty. Currently not a good level and more of a 1-lemming level instead of a 2-lemming level.
Heaven and Earth: Not yet solved, but please make it more obvious that bashing from the left does not work. Currently the terrain is terribly misleading.

Gronkling

Future Temple: Nice level and not too hard. With this style, I always confuse normal terrain with steel (because steel pieces have so many different looks). This is of course not your fault, but it was still annoying for me, because my first two solutions didn't work due to this mistake.
Ursa Miner? Ursa MAJOR!: Looks nice, but apart from the trick at the very beginning, the level is pretty standard and requires rather precise timing at the end.

 IchoTolot (only ranting about the style)

The yellow trap is pretty visible, but the brown one... :devil::sick::evil::sick::devil::sick::evil::sick::devil:
I tried "The Machine" and found a solution, only that suddenly one lemming was missing :lem-mindblown:. Ok, framestep back until finding the trap. So I had to find a new approach. Two minutes later I had another one, but unfortunately I just forgot about the trap again! When the trap surprised my a third time another five minutes later, I rage-quit the level! Then I tried "Harkonnen Force" and solved it... or so I thought! More than half of my lemmings vanished again somewhere when they really should have walked straight into the exits! Again I completely missed half of all traps in this level.
Summary: This &@!* trap must become a LOT more visible! Until this is done, I will never ever play any Dune style level again.

Edit: Now with replays as attachment.

I posted pictures of the trap in test levels and the animation + the full animation sztripe in my topic weekes ago! Why did you/anyone not point that out in the beta phase! :devil::devil::devil::devil:
I thought with the button the visability is enough and nobody cries out until it is too late.  RANT! :8():
Now I have to think about it in the middle of the contest, will probably upload a tileset update which is not relevant to physics in the next time. :(

bulletride

Sounds like Nepster found a backroute. Ill have to take a look at his replay when I get off work :(
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

IchoTolot

To also post it in here. Dune trap is now more visible. I have attached it here as well.


Crane

Managed to solve the levels by Gronkling and Colorful Arty - some might be backroutes due to saving more than required.

I'm really digging the music for "Lego my Lemmings!", and the music and decal for "Hailfire Peaks" reminds me of Batman Returns for some reason.

Crane

Solved V3 of "Hailfire Peaks" - pretty clever solution I have to say.

My replay for V2 of "Lego my Lemming!" still works as is on V3 - I save 9 lemmings. P.S. Did you mean to revert the fire sticks back to the V1 version?

IchoTolot

Quote from: joshescue18 on August 24, 2016, 12:49:40 AM
I solved this level again.

That's still a backroute ;P    Added 2 more buttons at the bottom line to 100% force you to tackle all 4 gaps at the bottom or use 2 walkers  ---> update topic.

Colorful Arty

Crane got the intended solution to my Rule 3 level! Very well done! :thumbsup:

I was sure this level would give people a lot of trouble to solve; you must be a REALLY good lemmings player to solve it so quickly! :thumbsup:

IchoTolot

Alright started my video series :)

Link to the first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2nSXE5pSpQ

The first 2 videos are already up and cover the NL/SL levels in the latest version including V3 from Arty's levels, Bulletride's + Crane's V2 update and a look at V3 of my level. The lix levels will be probably up later this day or tomorrow just have to upload them.

Crane

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not the best - I haven't managed to solve IchToLot's levels yet, for example.  For "The Machine", I have all the buttons pressed, but I either have one lemming dying or stuck in a loop.  "Harkonnen Force" I'm totally stuck with due to Lemmings entering the third teleporter - I sort of know what to do, but timing and Miners are proving elusive.


geoo

Solutions to Simon's and Nepster's levels. I'll leave the rest for some other time.
Both were quite simple and enjoyable, though the steel placement in Simon's level looks a bit hackish. And the holes in the canopy terrain are still annoying.

I also posted updates to my levels in the other topic. The solutions to Inseparables were quite interesting to see, this was one thing I didn't consider.

joshescue18

I solved IchoTolot's and Colorful Arty's levels.

IchoTolot

Quote from: joshescue18 on August 24, 2016, 09:37:44 PM
I solved IchoTolot's levels.

The Machine Intended solution! :thumbsup:

Harkonnen force: Slightly different from the intended way but totally acceptable! I'm impressed! :thumbsup::thumbsup:   You basically switched 1 walker and 2 miners around.

Simon

Quote from: IchoTolot on August 24, 2016, 06:04:00 PM
Lix videos are up aswell :)
Quote from: geoo
Both were quite simple and enjoyable

Thanks!

Quote from: geoothe steel placement in Simon's level looks a bit hackish

I assume this doesn't mean the exact positioning, but purely the visual design. Yeah, I contemplated steel in a tree. I wanted to keep the pointy block visible for honesty, and as a hint. But I didn't find a convincing design that made the steel look belonging here.

Yes, intended route.

Quote from: geooWhy didn't you just use torus instead of fling chain in your level?

I kept the steam for the flying theme. I designed and built the level before I became worried about fling-chain unmaintainability in light of planned physics changes.

-- Simon

bulletride

Going to take me a while to beat all these as I can only play so long before it hurts lol. Here is Wishing Wells replay.
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

Just caught your backroute just in time before I released V3!

Here are my solutions to "Harkonnen Force" and "Bird Knight", and an extra one for you, Colorful Arty - a solution to V4 of Hailfire Peaks (which is pretty much my solution from before):

Harkonnen Force
I think this is a backroute because you gave a very big clue in your video, IchTolot, that all three traps in the "Command Centre" have to be disabled.  This one skips the yellow teleporter completely, but uses all the skills.

Bird Knight
This was a bit of a self-imposed challenge.  I decided to solve the level without using any Diggers!

Hailfire Peaks
One possible solution for patching IchTolot's backroute, if you wanted to patch it, is to put a fire pit at the base of that platform to the left of the exit, in that nook between the snow drift and the post, so any digger that goes there meets his demise.

Crane

Here's another replay of Harkonnen Force, this one looking more intended.  I have to say, it feels less like Lemmings and more like an invasion!

Also completed "Complications" and "The Machine" at long last!  The latter was a marathon of a level, but then again, I'm not that experienced in the use of Stackers yet.

IchoTolot

Quote from: Crane on August 25, 2016, 09:23:30 AM
Here's another replay of Harkonnen Force, this one looking more intended.  I have to say, it feels less like Lemmings and more like an invasion!

Also completed "Complications" and "The Machine" at long last!  The latter was a marathon of a level, but then again, I'm not that experienced in the use of Stackers yet.

Yes that's intended and this replay still works with the V2 fix ;)     It was very much intended to make it feel like an invasion 8-)

The Machine is also 100% intended.

IchoTolot

Thinking over this: With josh's solution + the timing involed in the intended way it should be possible to beat "Harkonnen Force" with 1 spare miner, which would be a nice talisman in the future. :)

Colorful Arty

I can't get Simon or Nepster's Lix levels to work on my computer. When I see the preview image, it has four squares with silver trees in the corners, and pushing play level does nothing. Does anyone know how to fix this?

namida

Which version of Lix are you using? It's possible the levels may only be compatible with the D version (for example, due to using tile grouping), and this is generally the preferred version to use for single-player (as well as the version specified by contest rules, though it's acceptable for a level to be compatible with both versions).
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

IchoTolot


IchoTolot

Before making a video for each little update: Here are some replays for the fixed levels.

Including:

Bulletride R1V4  (could be intended)

Crane R1V3       (should be another backroute ;P)

Arty R3V4           (should be intended)


bulletride

Quote from: IchoTolot on August 25, 2016, 04:34:05 PM
Before making a video for each little update: Here are some replays for the fixed levels.

Including:

Bulletride R1V4  (could be intended)

Crane R1V3       (should be another backroute ;P)

Arty R3V4           (should be intended)

How do I watch this type of replay file?
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

namida

Quote from: BulletRide on August 25, 2016, 05:04:58 PM
Quote from: IchoTolot on August 25, 2016, 04:34:05 PM
Before making a video for each little update: Here are some replays for the fixed levels.

Including:

Bulletride R1V4  (could be intended)

Crane R1V3       (should be another backroute ;P)

Arty R3V4           (should be intended)

How do I watch this type of replay file?

Use the V1.47n experimental version of NeoLemmix.
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

IchoTolot

Next try! :)

Bulletride R1V5 here, but I assume that this is still a backroute because I just swapped a miner with a basher and I wouldn't call option 1 a backroute when option 2 is intended here.

Edit: Ok this was solved in the last V5 but now there's another V5, so back to the drawing board.

bulletride

Sorry! I thought it showed no downloads when I changed it so I figured I wouldn't have to change the version number. I watched the first part of your replay and then made changes without seeing how you did the next part lol.
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0


IchoTolot

Quote from: Crane on August 26, 2016, 12:08:36 PM
Talisman please!

Not the exact way I was thinking of, but this is even a bit more clever :)   Nice job.  I won't update the contest level for this, but I may think about making it either a talisman or simply cut a miner for Reunion 2.

IchoTolot

Some more replays. I will make a video when all the levels seem a bit more finalised.

Geoo R3V3: Ok, now I see the actual compression method here ;P
                    This should be intended.

Crane R1V4:   A lot better, seems partly intended, but having a miner left seems still a bit backrouty.


R1V5 from Bulletride has me a little bit stomped atm. ;P     Is the glider a redherring or not? It's so expensive to get! I has to be sth with my latest solution to the first part. But I will see.

All other levels seem to be intended by now.



Crane

Well you broke that pretty much instantly!  Hopefully V5 patches that.  Yes, you are meant to use the Miner in the intended solution!

By the way, how does Heaven and Earth perform for you now?

Can you double-check that Bird Knight is correct in the NeoLemmix pack? The exit doesn't seem to trigger on the experimental version of NeoLemmix.  Other than that glitch, here's a replay for V2 of Bird Knight that uses no diggers and only 5 miners and 3 climbers, which is as efficient as I can get it tool-wise, at least so far.

IchoTolot

Quote from: Crane on August 26, 2016, 01:35:45 PM
Well you broke that pretty much instantly!  Hopefully V5 patches that.  Yes, you are meant to use the Miner in the intended solution!

By the way, how does Heaven and Earth perform for you now?

Nope backroute still works because of the decoration ;P

Heaven and Earth is fine timing wise in my opinion now.

Crane

Bugger!  I forgot about that digger trick!  Physics... does not compute... ! !  Still, patched now, I hope, and I made some minor adjustments here and there to make sure you don't do anything tricky with builders and miners!

IchoTolot


Crane

I will not be beaten!  Now I hope V7 is backroute-proof without being too unfairly precise, but still aesthetically pleasing (I tried to do a 'dripping water' effect on the overhang if you look carefully).  I had spotted a backroute of my own that I patched at the same time.  You'll make a good beta tester, IchTolot!


Crane

Funny how you either have a level that's near-perfect, or has to be patched until the cows come home.

Crane

Finally completed Complications V5 - that was a marathon of a level!

IchoTolot

I think Crane's level might be intended now! 5 secs more on the clock could be also a thing to add as this level nearly finishes on the 1 sec mark even if I do anything as fast as I can.


Bulletrides level:
Spoiler
After trying to solve Bulletrides level with getting the glider yesterday (this couldn't be just a redherring), I tried it with my old start without the glider again this morning annnnd with a different miner positioning and a stacker in a different place I managed to solve it finally. I still don't know if this is intended as the glider stays a mystery and if it is not nessesary I recommend removing it. Looking into the forum again I saw Crane also solved it the same way, this speaks for the glider not beeing nessesary and I would still propose it's removal.

Crane

I'll give you that one!

The Wishing Well
My intended solution has the climber go over the small stump rather than bash through it, and then to bash through it on the way back, but honestly that variant is so minor that it doesn't warrant a patch.  Saying that though...

When I solve it, I'm deliberately inefficient with the floater, and I still finish in time.  That was one of my test criteria for this level.  You will run out of time though if you get the climber and floater the wrong way around.

IchoTolot



bulletride

All neolemmix rule 3's complete. Saved 1 more than needed on most of them.
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

(To BulletRide) I would have kept the red herring pick-up skill personally, but it depends on how hard you want to make the level. There are parts where it looks like the Glider would be ideal to use, but if you properly work out the tools you need for the path taken, you don't have enough no matter the combination. Up to you though.

bulletride

Ill leave it in for now then thanks
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Simon

Quote from: Colorful Arty on August 25, 2016, 04:52:49 PM
Lix now works! Thanks guys! :D

Colorful Arty plays the Lix contest levels

Thanks! Happy to see you playing and commenting. You found the intended solution to Flying Squirrels.

The previous contest's entry, Long Divison, enticed chaotic precision batting. Flying Squirrels is clearer, you felt how the batter assignment was right at once.

geoo's Inseparables has version 2 up by now. I believe your method won't solve version 2. Your method failed on version 1 only barely: If you want to delay the non-floater with 2 platformers, wait for its shrugging after the first platformer, only then assign the second.

geoo's NewCompression has new versions, too, to discourage precision flinging.

Meeting Ichotolot next Saturday, to play the NL levels.

-- Simon

Colorful Arty



zanzindorf

Phew, I just solved Harkonnen Force. That was really hard, but it made me feel smart after solving it :laugh:
I also beat Arty's levels which were both fun. I especially liked the Banjo-Kazooie themed one. I beat Wishing well, but my solution was very similar to Arty's latest back-route solution. Still a cool level. I really like the moss. Attached is the Harkonnen Force replay. I won't attach the rest of the replays because they're all very similar to ones already posted.

Spoiler
On Harkonnen Force, I manage to bypass completely the trap at the start.

IchoTolot

Quote from: zanzindorf on August 29, 2016, 02:19:15 PM
Phew, I just solved Harkonnen Force. That was really hard, but it made me feel smart after solving it :laugh:
I also beat Arty's levels which were both fun. I especially liked the Banjo-Kazooie themed one. I beat Wishing well, but my solution was very similar to Arty's latest back-route solution. Still a cool level. I really like the moss. Attached is the Harkonnen Force replay. I won't attach the rest of the replays because they're all very similar to ones already posted.

Spoiler
On Harkonnen Force, I manage to bypass completely the trap at the start.

Completely acceptable solution, well done! :thumbsup:

Nepster

I played through the new versions again. See attached replays.

Bulletride

"Complications": Much better now, even though the timing at the end is much stricter than it needs to be.

Colorful Arty

"Lego my lemmings!": Not sure this is completely intended, because I don't use the delay by the gray platforms at the top in any way. Moreover placing the blocker is really non-trivial, because one cannot place him onto the blue slope and the lemmings in the crowd tend to produce few groups of very close lemmings (so if one blocks the first lemming, the next still moves through). But a nice idea regardless.
"Hailfire Peaks": Very nice level. One minor complaint though: The blocker to turn the miner has to be placed very precisely.

Crane

"The Wishing Well": Still looks like a backroute, though it isn't as bad a backroute as the one for V1.

geoo

"Inseparables": Excellent level! :thumbsup:
"The New Compression Method": Saving 7 lix is easy. I just don't know how to time it, so that the squisher doen't finish killing the last lix before all the other lix arrive.

IchoTolot

First fo all: The new trap is much better! 8-)
"The Machine": Very clever level. One minor complaint: Currently it is not obvious that gliders starting from the top platform will not reach the button on the other side, but hit the platform below and turn around.
"Harkonnen Force": The timing for the first two climbers who walk into the teleporters requires too much precision, because they must not be too far away (so that they use different teleporters), but cannot be too close together (otherwise the digger will be too fast). And the left third of the level isn't really used at all, apart from making the lemming walk a lot more at the beginning.

Simon

"Flying Squirrels": Nice visuals, but did you really want that precision-batting and tumbler-imploding?

zanzindorf

"Bird Knight": Very nice level! :thumbsup:
In case you made the style yourself: Even though the level looks quite nice, I just would prefer a slightly darker background resp. lighter terrain pieces, especially as the background consists just of slightly darker versions of usual terrain pieces. With the current color choices, I had to concentrate too much on distinguishing stuff. And at first, I took the blocks hanging from the chains (e.g. directly left of the left hatch) to be steel.

Colorful Arty

The thing about Halifire peaks is that there are two main solutions. One (the one Nepster did) is easier to figure out but harder to execute. The other is harder to figure out but cooler and easier in execution. Try to find both! :D

bulletride

Wishing Well V9 + Future Temple attached.
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

Apologies.  There was a bug with my last update.  For those who have already downloaded V10 of The Wishing Well, please do so again.

bulletride

My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0


bulletride

My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

That's weird... I have versions of V2 that have that steel block there and some that don't.  It shouldn't be there.  Will fix soon.

Simon

Quote from: Crane on August 30, 2016, 11:41:16 AM
I have versions of V2
QuoteFor those who have already downloaded V10 of The Wishing Well, please do so again.

Don't re-publish with the same version number. Always increase the number -- even for a miniscule fix. Even if this fix comes 5 minutes after the previous upload.

It's no slur upon a level to reach version 20. 8-) If the level begun with many backroutes, the high version number shows good care.

-- Simon

IchoTolot

Quote from: Nepster on August 29, 2016, 05:59:10 PM
I played through the new versions again. See attached replays.

Bulletride

"Complications": Much better now, even though the timing at the end is much stricter than it needs to be.

Colorful Arty

"Lego my lemmings!": Not sure this is completely intended, because I don't use the delay by the gray platforms at the top in any way. Moreover placing the blocker is really non-trivial, because one cannot place him onto the blue slope and the lemmings in the crowd tend to produce few groups of very close lemmings (so if one blocks the first lemming, the next still moves through). But a nice idea regardless.
"Hailfire Peaks": Very nice level. One minor complaint though: The blocker to turn the miner has to be placed very precisely.

Crane

"The Wishing Well": Still looks like a backroute, though it isn't as bad a backroute as the one for V1.

geoo

"Inseparables": Excellent level! :thumbsup:
"The New Compression Method": Saving 7 lix is easy. I just don't know how to time it, so that the squisher doen't finish killing the last lix before all the other lix arrive.

IchoTolot

First fo all: The new trap is much better! 8-)
"The Machine": Very clever level. One minor complaint: Currently it is not obvious that gliders starting from the top platform will not reach the button on the other side, but hit the platform below and turn around.
"Harkonnen Force": The timing for the first two climbers who walk into the teleporters requires too much precision, because they must not be too far away (so that they use different teleporters), but cannot be too close together (otherwise the digger will be too fast). And the left third of the level isn't really used at all, apart from making the lemming walk a lot more at the beginning.

Simon

"Flying Squirrels": Nice visuals, but did you really want that precision-batting and tumbler-imploding?

zanzindorf

"Bird Knight": Very nice level! :thumbsup:
In case you made the style yourself: Even though the level looks quite nice, I just would prefer a slightly darker background resp. lighter terrain pieces, especially as the background consists just of slightly darker versions of usual terrain pieces. With the current color choices, I had to concentrate too much on distinguishing stuff. And at first, I took the blocks hanging from the chains (e.g. directly left of the left hatch) to be steel.

The left third of the level is purely for the visuals. In fact the whole level is created because I had the specific visual idea in mind. The solution was secondary in this case. I created the landscape and carved out a solution afterwards.
Maybe if you watch my Dune 2000 let's play in the future you can understand the things I tried to represent there a bit better.;)
The precision with the 2 climbers was intended here and I thought it was alright because of the relatively long teleporter animation + with a savestate at the climber assignment another try is made in seconds. I will see when putting Reunion 2 together if I make some adjustments here and ease this (+ maybe making the gliding in The Machine a bit more obvious). Currently the precision can be avoided as well ;). Josh found a way to completely bypass the timing.

As we speak about visuals: Gronkling: What is your polar level trying to represent? It looks somewhat like a logo, but I don't know from what. ??? Is it indeed a logo, maybe from a sports team I don't know?

Crane

Quote from: Simon on August 30, 2016, 01:06:58 PM
Quote from: Crane on August 30, 2016, 11:41:16 AM
I have versions of V2
QuoteFor those who have already downloaded V10 of The Wishing Well, please do so again.

Don't re-publish with the same version number. Always increase the number -- even for a miniscule fix. Even if this fix comes 5 minutes after the previous upload.

It's no slur upon a level to reach version 20. 8-) If the level begun with many backroutes, the high version number shows good care.

-- Simon
I'm scared it represents inexperience and carelessness because you can't get it right the first time - I mean, Nepster tore into me because of my backroutes virtually turning it into a 1-lemming level.  It's either perfection or nothing with me - no in between.

As for Heaven and Earth's Version 2, I'm actually confused by the presence of the small steel block because I'm sure it wasn't there the first time, or I put it in without thinking.  Either way, I'll release version 3 soon where it won't be present at all.

Nepster

Quote from: Crane on August 30, 2016, 04:56:16 PM
I'm scared it represents inexperience and carelessness because you can't get it right the first time - I mean, Nepster tore into me because of my backroutes virtually turning it into a 1-lemming level.  It's either perfection or nothing with me - no in between.
Don't take my comments too seriously, when my solution turns out to be a backroute. I can only comment on the level resp. solution I know of and am more than willing to revise my opinion when playing another new version of the level.

And having backroutes being sign of "inexperience and carelessness" is absolute nonsense, because almost all levels from any level creator has backroutes at first, regardless of how many hours the level designer has spent on the level. Even needing more than 10 versions isn't a sign of this: ccexplore's "Brickout", namida's "Forgotten Beauty", my "Deadly Rooms of Lems" and several other levels have gone through at least as many backroute-fixes. Some level ideas are simply prone to backroutes and there is nothing one can do against this, except letting people play the level and fix it, fix it and fix it again.

bulletride

Wishing Well v12 is much better! Think I probably have the intended route now.

Without the steel piece Heaven and Earth is much harder and has me a little stumped still.
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

Almost got The Wishing Well - easy enough to patch!

For Heaven and Earth, well, think like IchTolot!

bulletride

Still able to beat same way. 1 or 2 pixels more should do it.

My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

Update may have to wait... my laptop's boot sector got corrupted, Windows won't start, and I don't have a usable recovery medium.

namida

Quote from: Crane on September 02, 2016, 12:19:54 AM
Update may have to wait... my laptop's boot sector got corrupted, Windows won't start, and I don't have a usable recovery medium.

If you have access to another PC (preferably running the same OS) and a USB flash drive, it's possible to create one on that. (You might be able to even use a (Micro)SD card in a USB SD reader.)
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Crane

Laptop is now in a repair shop, and I'm in a panic because I feel ripped off but completely helpless.  SD card reader seems to be physically damaged anyway (can't get it in) and no other computer I have has the operating system.  I did try using a Windows 7 DVD, but one refused to be recognised as a bootable medium, and the other crashed on start-up.  DVD drive might be a bit damaged too, since the door feels loose.  I fear the laptop got banged around a lot because of how often I use it and transport it, although I know the hard drive is physically fine... just a system crash and a forced power-off caused logical corruption.

IchoTolot

Some more replays and backroutes as Simon came over today and played the NL levels! :)

I only attached the replays which were different from already existing solutions.

Crane got obviously yet another backroute to fix ;P

Gronkling's level may also be backrouted as Simon saved everyone here.

And everyone saved as well on zanzindorf's level, but this is probably more an alternative solution than a backroute.


Simon

NL levels.

Spoiler
Complications: Cute tricks. Very hard. Icho told me that you removed the red-herring glider. The level easily musters enough difficulty from good core ideas. Long level, difficult to assess how much leeway there is with skills near the beginning.

The Wishing Well: Feels like a heavily fixed level. You entice lots of fun things to try, the fun ideas look working almost until the end, but then fail for un-fun reasons. If something is going to fail, I'd love to have that more obvious earlier. I can rule out some ideas by reason. But almost everything, I have to try it to be sure that it doesn't work. Bonus points for the dirt set, lovely set, I'm happy every time I see it.

Future Temple: Cute level. Excellent display of the mandatory permanent skills at the beginning, it's hard to miss the permanents. A focused level, the skills accomplish wildly different and unexpected things. Yet not too hard. Like like like.

The Machine: Ruthless exploit of a psychological blind spot. The symmetry makes this harder, not easier. This level wins the special prize for most surprising spike in difficulty. The Zendo player in me is delighted.

Lego my lemmings: I solved this first try, and aked Icho afterwards whether the flickering trees were fire. But that's a tileset issue, not a level issue. It's probably okay, because my hunch was that the trees were fire. Using walker to cancel basher feels like a waste of walker at first, but the solution feels good with this, it undermines a wrong assumption gently. These little moments of enjoyment is what I seek in Lemmings.

Heaven and Earth: Very nice. Excellent and hard decisions where to use cloner, walker, blocker, when all would somehow work. I remember how I raged about NL, it didn't let me assign miner even though I wouldn't remove any steel. This level was soothing, that's strong.

Hailfire Peaks: Lovely blockers. Crucial height difference of a single pixel at the right, that looks unnecessarily precise, but may be okay in practice. Cute alcoves around the screen border, they never feel cramped, but cozy. Lemmings needs more of this.

Ursa Miner? Ursa MAJOR: Cute digging. I thought of your avatar the entire time during this level. The level is cute, and the dragon is too cute. Level feels very gronklingish, lots of attention to small-scale physics details, but never dishonest. Icho puts one screen full of decoration next to his levels? Who needs an extra screen, you can lay out everything comfortably in a fourth of the screen size, and still have massive space for deco.

Harkonnen Force: Very large, strange vertical scrolling, a daunting appearance. Eventually, the action concentrates on the small area, and becomes far less confusing than I suspected.

Bird Knight: I want to disable the background on this. I had to guess what is solid and what isn't, even though the answer has never affected my planning. The bashers are in short supply, I had luck and didn't waste bashers. This rewards sending multiple climbers, even though you could get away with fewer, that's fun. Then we watched Colorful Arty enjoying 30 minutes of Superlemmini on youtube, that was also fun.

Edit by namida: SPOILER TAGS!

-- Simon

namida

Just a reminder, there's about 10 days left to get any updates / late entries in (the deadline will extend if need be so that the update phase doesn't close until at least 72 hours after the last update / late entry).
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

zanzindorf

Thanks for the feedback on my level. I just posted a V3 that will hopefully help with the background issues. The background is now much darker, and the terrain is a little lighter. I previewed it on a few other monitors for testing, and it looks alright. My monitor's kinda off, so it sometimes makes art-making difficult :XD:

bulletride

:evil:
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Simon

I haven't looked at Wishing Well v14 yet, but I have watched the v13 intended route at Icho's.

Ideas for v13

Remove the dig-build near the exit. That's not the core idea anyway, but a supplementary idea. The main idea is that you send the floater down, then back up, and down again. When you remove the dig-build at the exit, you can remove the digger, which is critical for my v13 backroute.

Alternatively, put one-ways on the wall at the exit. Then the dig-build becomes obvious, and you have sacrificed this extra idea again, to fix and focus on the main idea.

Bonus: When you trim the skillset, the level will allow fewer things that seem to work, but then fail for technical reasons. That was my main critique from my previous post. 8-)

-- Simon

Crane

Quote from: BulletRide on September 06, 2016, 01:01:14 AM
:evil:
I hate you!  But I believe they are now all patched, including Simon's little trick!  Took a minor redesign of the level, and it now allows a variant of the intended solution to be completed in time, even if you're very inefficient... but given the variant only has one incredibly small difference, I'll allow it!

Simon

#85
Crane:Yeah, now I don't see anything but the intended route.

Attached replay times out by 2 or 3 seconds. Now I have to do it all over, except with RR 99 at the beginning? :-/ Does this even need a time limit?

geoo: Inseparables v2, looks intended. Hard puzzle, beautiful timing.

Nepster: Oh yes, here again v1. This feels backroutish, but it uses all the skills. It involved trial-and-error, yet makes perfect sense in the end.

-- Simon

Crane

Posted on the wrong board, Simon, but the replay doesn't work on the experimental version of the player... the lemming walks into the water.

Playing in the standard version though... bash closer to the wall so the lemming doesn't continue through the floor.

Minim

Being that this Wishing Well level has been updated so many times I thought I might give it a go.

And why not, I found a heavy backroute. :evil: Looks like you might need to release V16...
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Crane

Oh bloomin' 'eck!  I really don't know how to patch that one because you can adjust the timing way too easily.

Simon

Quote from: Crane on September 06, 2016, 05:20:00 PM
bash closer to the wall so the lemming doesn't continue through the floor.

Yeah, there are many micro-optimizations that will turn my attempt into a solution.

The issue is that the level punishes such non-optimized attempts. Why can I even bash such that the lem continues through the floor?

-- Simon

Crane

Well, I'm working on V16 to help with that issue, so you can't go through the floor.  Not sure how to deal with Minim's backroute though - pondering.

Simon

Quote
Well, I'm working on V16 to help with that issue, so you can't go through the floor.

Awesome. 8-) Maybe RR = 99 too, because missing RR 1 -> 99 loses several seconds. Depends on how precise the time limit is, and how much scope for errors is left in the intended route.

Here's another backroute for v15. I believe this comes from the digger removal, but I haven't tried in v13. Needs the stable physics agin, not exp.

-- Simon

bulletride

One easy to fix back route and one possibly intended solution.

Spoiler

I would move the exit to the left a little bit to make it slightly more visible that you can build to turn around there now.
My level pack Lemmings Stampede: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3200.0

Crane

Second replay is more or less intended - well done.  As for Minim's backroute... I don't know where to begin.  Fixing it may require a fundamental redesign of the level, although I'll try working on something on the side.

Minim

At the moment I'm comparing my backroute with Bulletride's possibly intended solution, and also thinking of ideas to prevent mine and Simon's backroutes. Spoilering it just in case:

Spoiler
It turns out that my builder placement on the grassy patch on the bottom right side of the left island is a bit further to the right than that of the intended solution, so you could try erasing a bit of that terrain to block that backroute. As for Simon's backroute - I suggest either adding one-way left arrows in the first wall, or adding a rock trap
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Crane

Well, see how version 16 currently compares.  The trouble is, you can jiggle the timings a lot so the Climber always lands on the top step in time, and you can use the miner or a builder (or both) to turn the Climber.

Minim

I still managed to backroute it with my method. However, I've just thought of an even better idea:

Spoiler
Use Pickup skills! My backroute requires all six builders, none of which are needed to build over the lake. If you exchange a builder from the skillset for pickup skill and place it next to the lake, I have no chance to backroute your level

Hope this helps.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Crane

That would work, but I think you can still make it work using the miner instead of a builder, and the leftover basher to cut the climber's bridge short if necessary.  Admittedly I'm quite an old-school level designer and favour the classic eight tools only.  If it means a patched level though, then I may submit to the new!

It's funny... "The Wishing Well" was something I took a lot of pride in building, and it's been ripped to shreds in many different ways.  Hmmm!


namida

If there's any last-minute updates / late submissions, there's about 6 hours left to get them in. After this, late entries / updates will close, and a few days later, voting will open. Public replay sharing / discussion is still allowed until voting begins.

If any more updates / submissions do come, the update phase will remain open until we've had 72 hours without any further updates / submissions.
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Nepster


Crane

I would have made updates to "The Wishing Well", but given my on-going computer problems (my laptop's hard drive is rapidly failing) and the way people have torn the level asunder, I'll be leaving it for now.  I'll patch it up and all when it comes to releasing it for my own pack one day, maybe.  I'll have to try to post my intended solutions too.

Proxima

I'm not going to be able to make the level I wanted to contribute. I have an idea for one, but I just haven't had time to build it. Sorry :(

geoo

I had a go at all the NeoLemmix levels now as well. After talking to Icho it seems like the latest released nxp doesn't have the latest versions of the styles, making the exit in zanzindorf's level not work and the traps in the dune tileset hard to spot.

I'm one skill short of solving BulletRide's complications, and I didn't save a replay after gathering everyone in front of the exit in Bird Knight, but I have replays for all other levels.
Comments:

[V6] BulletRide's "Complications" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
Very tough one, and the start is still not clear to me. But really nice interaction between the swimmer and the climber as far as I can see. I'll try it again at some point.
[V16] Crane's "The Wishing Well" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
This was quite fun. Some of the terrain is a bit strange and the skill placements feel unnatural (like the builder at the top), but I guess that's a side-effect of backroute fixing, as other parts of the level look very nice. The cross at the right is a bit misleading as it looks like it'd turn the climber around, the level could make that a bit clearer here. But overall I enjoyed figuring this one out. Time limit was a bit tight at the end; is it needed for backroute prevention?
[V1] Gronkling's "Future Temple" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
I like how simplistic this one is with just 5 skills. Still it takes a little while to figure out, I was having a lot of fun with this one. Only gripe is that depending on exact placement of the basher/blocker, the blocker sometimes goes into the traps. Oh, and I feel like the traps aren't as visible as they could be, but that's an issue with the tile set.
[V3] IchoTolot's "The Machine" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
Really fun this one. I didn't realize that by platforming at the top, you create a safe fall due to the updraft. Then the level was more straightforward than expected. But it still has the nice timing falling into place at the end which is very satisfying.

[V3] Colorful Arty's "Lego my lemmings!" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
This was one of the easier ones, but still fun to play.
[V3] Crane's "Heaven and Earth" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
Definitely one of my favourites. At the beginning it seems like there are almost no options at all, but then there are surprisingly many things to try out. Took me a while, and I was thoroughly enjoying it. I'm glad Simon made me aware of the time limit from the start, still once or twice I had the level end abruptly because the timer ran out. Not a big fan of that happening.

[V5] Colorful Arty's "Hailfire Peaks" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
I feel like the terrain looks a bit messy in this one. The level itself really it built around the terrain, but there are not many options for the skill placements. I took a little while to realize the basher trick, even though I had used it in a level of my own before. The miner placements together with the blocker are a bit annoying to get right.
[V1] Gronkling's "Ursa Miner? Ursa MAJOR!" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
Really cute level. Looked impossible for a moment, but once I saw the main trick it didn't take long to piece it together. I really like how compact the level is.
[V2] IchoTolot's "Harkonnen Force" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
The level isn't bad itself, but it caused me a lot of frustration which is mostly the tileset's fault. The version from the first post still doesn't have the markings for the trap, so it looks like terrain. That messed up my plans. Then the teleporter destinations look almost like the teleporters, so I thought they were two-way and was planning a solution around that. That messed up my plans again. Then it also wasn't quite clear where the trigger area of the fire is, whether you can actually dig down off-center. Once I actually saw the level as it was it wasn't so hard. Nothing completely novel and the middle felt a bit like filler, but an ok level.
[V3] zanzindorf's "Bird Knight" (NeoLemmix)
Spoiler
I like the visuals of this one, and the level itself plays nicely too. It looks like you have plenty of skills, but you need at least a little bit of planning to make sure you don't run out.


namida

I'll open the voting at some point (most likely earlier rather than later) on the 17th, UTC. (Don't want to give an exact time, as that relies on me being able to do so at whatever the exact time is.)

If you want to get in any last-minute discussion, do so now. :)
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Crane

Here are the intended solutions to my two levels (Rule 1, Level 2 and Rule 2, Level 2)