Poll

Which level did you find harder?

Lemmings Plus Omega II, Sharp 18 "Insanity Plea"
0 (0%)
Lemmings Plus Alpha, Obliteration 14 "Wasted Talent"
1 (100%)

Total Members Voted: 1

Author Topic: Lemmings Plus Series  (Read 64938 times)

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Offline Armani

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #240 on: July 28, 2020, 11:11:20 am »
Fianlly played some LP levels. :D
Here're replays and some comments for LP Alpha.

Some notable backroutes :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Levels I really like and enjoyed :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll be back with LP omega next time. ;)

Online namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #241 on: July 28, 2020, 07:53:07 pm »
I'll look through your replays later, but regarding your comments,

First, I'll note that LPA is not being updated anymore (except for compatibility). So any backroutes at this point will most likely remain as is. (I say "most likely" because there have occasionally been cases where I've fixed a backroute in a long-dead pack, but it's not common. It usually has to be a level I really, really like, or else a level where a NL change has broken the intended solution so it needed changes anyway.)

With that being said - Mastery Of Malice is somewhat open (there are several known solutions, at least, some of which do save more than required, although the leftover basher sounds interesting). The other three were probably the three most problematic levels, backroute-wise, in the pack. And yes, it's very possible you might have had leftover skills on other levels - some have multiple solutions, and it is also somewhat common, if doing so doesn't lead to backroutes, for my levels to have some skills that are entirely decoys.

With regards to Obl 13 not being nominated for LOTY - in general, I didn't expect LPA to have much success there. LPA is a very hard pack, and so it doesn't appeal to everyone - and LOTY needs levels that appeal to, if not everyone, at least a very large portion of the player base. It's more a specialized pack aimed at the really high-level players (though of course, anyone is welcome to try it).

Offline Armani

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #242 on: September 08, 2020, 07:37:21 am »
And, just finished LP Omega2.
Yes, It was really nice and enjoyable pack.:thumbsup:
I actually finished the pack long ago except for talisman of 'Sharp19 Struck Out' (Complete in under 2:30)
My solution always took about 20~30 seconds more than the talisman requirement.
Today I came up with totally different approach on that level and finally achieve this one last talisman.
My solution have a digger left and took 30 seconds less than the talisman requirement so I think this is not 100% intended but at least I think I got the main trick.

(maybe)Backroute candidates :
Spiky2 The Space Bar : I have a blocker left. I can see what the intended solution looks like. I used the trick I learned in one of the LP alpha level(bending the rules), so I was able to separate a second pioneer lemming without a blocker.
Sharp10 Sweet Tooth : I solved it without any climber.
Sharp16 Lemmings Mangler : I didn't use upper route at all and saved 13 lemmings more than required.

My highlights of the pack :
Coarse5 Tactical drops : It is possible to make non trivial level without any skill??? :lem-shocked: It's definitely a genius level with brilliant idea. :thumbsup:
Sharp1 Odyssey : A single lemming explore the huge map. :thumbsup: I think when to assign a climber was the main puzzle + one last bomber to drop him directly to the exit.
Sharp18 Insanity Plea : Probably the most difficult level of the pack. Separating the first pioneer lemming was easy but I need to send two  more worker lemming after quite a while and this was the most difficult point. 

I haven't decided which pack to play after Omega2.
I'm thinking of 3 or 5.. let's see

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #243 on: September 18, 2020, 07:27:49 pm »
I just noticed in your lemmings Plus 5 pack, 1 level (outrageous 11-Relentless) wasn't playing any music. It was listed in the editor as machine2. But I noticed you keep them in folders for each pack
(ie Lemmings_Plus_V) so in the editor I resaved it as Lemmings_Plus_V/machine2 instead of just machine2). I did this for both the individual Lemming_V pack and the whole series upload for
the Lemmings V one.

Maybe this should be fixed so when one plays Lemmings Plus V whether in the single pack or the series, one will hear the music for that level(Outrageous 11-Relentless).

Thanks!!!

UPDATE: level 14 also no music (Outrageous 14). in this level you didn't even list which music is was supposed to play. the music field is blank in the editor.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 07:49:19 pm by ericderkovits »

Online namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #244 on: September 18, 2020, 10:48:48 pm »
Outrageous 11 is a mistake, yeah, I'll fix that next time I'm doing an update on the pack. Outrageous 14 is intended to have no music.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #245 on: September 19, 2020, 09:09:21 am »
After getting myself unstuck from Mutilation 2 a few days ago, I managed to solve every level of Lemmings Plus Alpha except for Obliteration 14. Well, I saved a successful replay of Obliteration 15, but I exited before the level finished just because normally I don't skip around to other levels until I beat the level I'm stuck on first. I did all this without reading your hints or consulting any video solution. I did both of those only after I have beaten the level myself first. There's just something about Obliteration 14 that I'm just not seeing. Either I'm an idiot and I'm missing something obvious, or it's supposed to be really hard. I'm so close to officially saying that Lemmings Plus Alpha is namida's very first pack I have beaten on NL. Obliteration 14 is preventing me from saying that. Also, technically Lemmings Plus 1 is the first pack of namida's I have completed, but I did that on Dos, not NL. There's two levels in there that I haven't managed to solve that I know the solutions to, but in the Dos engine they're extremely difficult and annoying to pull off. One of the levels was replaced with a different one in later versions.

I will send my replays and give more detailed feedback on the levels and the pack as soon as I can beat Oblieration 14 the next time I post. I'm almost tempted to peek at the hint, but I'm resisting the urge. If there's supposed to be a trick required to solve this level, I'm not aware of any that needs to be used given the skillset and also there doesn't seem to be any easy setup given the terrain. It's probably just a standard puzzle with a really clever solution that I have yet to spot.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #246 on: September 20, 2020, 07:26:23 am »
And, Obliteration 14 finally solved, as well as Obliteration 15, and thus I have officially completed Lemmings Plus Alpha, the very first of namida's pack that I have beaten in NL, all without reading the hints or viewing any replays before I have beaten the levels myself first. My entire set of replays are attached. Turns out the solution that I had in mind for Obliteration 14 was almost correct but I was

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Feedback on the levels:

Mutilation (click to show/hide)




Decimation (click to show/hide)




Obliteration (click to show/hide)




Some remarks on the pack:

As I mentioned previously, I solved all the levels in the pack without reading your hints or viewing any replays. I did all of United similarly. Just a personal preference of mine, as I prefer the satisfaction of figuring out the levels myself first before doing so. So, this means I will stay stuck for however long it takes until I finally figure out the solution.

Truthfully, this pack didn't stump me as much as I thought it would. Sure, there were some really hard levels in there, but I coasted through the pack much faster than I thought I would. In contrast, I'm struggling with Nepsterlems way more despite many of the levels also being small in size and using only the 8 classical skills.

Lemmings Plus Alpha is a very difficult pack, but in my opinion is nowhere near as brutal as Lemmings United or Nepsterlems. Perhaps the main reason I breezed through your pack easily is due to how I just recently finished the former pack and now just need to go back and resolve some levels that got backroute patched in the most recent update. For me, the hardest levels in Mutilation were 13 - Mini Mayhem and Mutilation 15 - Snow Place Like Home. For Decimation, the hardest levels for me were Decimation 9 Return to Gemland, Decimation 11 - Caving Under Pressure, and Decimation 15 - The Longest Minute. Finally, for Obliteration, the hardest levels for me were Obliteration 5 - Blessed by a Curse, Obliteration 8 - Lemmings and Lemmings Accessories, and most certainly Obliteration 14 - Wasted Talent, the latter which took me the longest out of all the other levels in the rank and the entire pack.

Obliteration 14 and Obliteration 15 should definitely switch places, as the former is much harder than the latter, which I thought was really easy for the final level of the pack. Instead, the most difficult part of Obliteration 15 is the execution timing-wise. Additionally, the other two rank finishers are much harder than Obliteration 15.

Overall, nice job with creating your most difficult pack. Besides Lemmings Plus 1 for Dos and Lemmings Plus Alpha, I haven't played any of the other Plus or Omega packs of the series, but they're certainly on my to-play list. Since I managed to beat your most difficult pack, I doubt I'll get very stuck on any of your other packs, but of course that remains to be seen.   

Online namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #247 on: September 21, 2020, 07:00:15 pm »
I'll look at your replays later. From your comments alone, a few do sound like backroutes. Mutilation 14, Decimation 10 and 13 and Obliteration 10 were particularly notorious for backroutes during testing. M14 and D10 in particular I gave up on trying to fix; in D10's case bumping it down from a later position to reflect the easier routes that existed. On the other hand, Decimation 8 does have multiple solutions.

I would note that I'm no longer fixing backroutes in any existing packs at any rate. This is just how I approach pack creation - after a while, I consider it "set in stone" and will only generally make changes for compatibility with newer NL versions.

Quote
Overall, nice job with creating your most difficult pack. Besides Lemmings Plus 1 for Dos and Lemmings Plus Alpha, I haven't played any of the other Plus or Omega packs of the series, but they're certainly on my to-play list. Since I managed to beat your most difficult pack, I doubt I'll get very stuck on any of your other packs, but of course that remains to be seen.

Lemmings Plus Omega 2 is a similar difficulty to Alpha towards the end; but the rest are a fair bit easier. In one case, Lemmings Plus VI, this was an intentional decision to make a slightly easier pack; in the rest it was more "I haven't got to my nastiest yet".


Also - re: your feedback about Obliteration 15's difficulty vs Obliteration 14's, this is normal for how I create my packs. The final level is almost never (intended to be) the hardest. The only exceptions to this were Lemmings Plus III and Holiday Lemmings Plus, where the final level was intended to be the hardest, though whether that actually happened or not is quite subjective. In all other cases, it's usually the 2nd- or 3rd- to-last level that's (meant to be) the hardest.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #248 on: September 22, 2020, 03:02:56 am »
Quote
Lemmings Plus Omega 2 is a similar difficulty to Alpha towards the end; but the rest are a fair bit easier. In one case, Lemmings Plus VI, this was an intentional decision to make a slightly easier pack; in the rest it was more "I haven't got to my nastiest yet".

Thanks for the info. I'll probably end up doing Omega 2 after I do the other Plus packs and Omega 1 first.

Quote
Also - re: your feedback about Obliteration 15's difficulty vs Obliteration 14's, this is normal for how I create my packs. The final level is almost never (intended to be) the hardest. The only exceptions to this were Lemmings Plus III and Holiday Lemmings Plus, where the final level was intended to be the hardest, though whether that actually happened or not is quite subjective. In all other cases, it's usually the 2nd- or 3rd- to-last level that's (meant to be) the hardest.

True, it's akin to the original game, where the penultimate level is much harder than the final level. By extension, there's also no need to make either of the last two levels really hard either. The level pack author could had chosen any of the levels in the final stretch to take the place of a really hard level instead.

Thanks for responding to my feedback. You're more than welcome to post in my other topic in the Lemmings Main board as well regarding the feedback I've given, although I will note it's probably a bit too early to do so, considering that LPA is so far the only pack of yours that I have sent replays and given you feedback for. Let's wait until I have finished a much larger pack by you first. Then you can tell me if my feedback has been helpful even though you're at the point where you're mostly just ensuring compatibility with the newer NL versions.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #249 on: September 22, 2020, 08:01:37 pm »
Also, I forgot to mention that the stats for a lot of the level images on the NL website are wrong. It's not just your packs, though. I've noticed that some of it is wrong with other packs too, like Mazulems. I'm not sure if it's just me, but for some reason diggers are not shown in the images for levels that do provide diggers. Other than this, some levels don't have the right stats. One instance is your swimmer tutorial level from your tutorial pack, where the image shows shimmiers instead of swimmers in the skillbar. I do understand that the images haven't been updated on the site in a really long time, as well as that it probably wasn't you, since the images just happened to show the wrong stuff for some reason when they were uploaded.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Lemmings Plus Series
« Reply #250 on: September 28, 2020, 06:17:46 pm »
ok, I finished putting the replays together for the Compressed pack LP series.(they came from other LP packs)

These are the same replays posted from the individual LP packs. Just the board didn't have them posted for the Compressed Pack. The replays also have all the replays for each level including Talismans(if any) and alternate ones or ones by other people (Ie like in LP VI)