Author Topic: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Extreme]  (Read 4011 times)

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Online kaywhyn

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2024, 12:01:39 AM »
Hi David,

After plenty of struggling, I've managed to solve both the first two ranks. My replays are attached. Also, link to my LP: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJtTPz6PJEoXrGylqQIEWnVZ. Enjoy! :P

General Feedback

DavidLems is David's second level pack, after The Lemmings Have Grown. There are 4 ranks here, with the first three having 20 levels each while the final rank has only 10 levels. Two of the ranks here have the same name as in the previous pack, 100 metres and 400 metres, with the remaining rank, 200 metres, appropriately inserted between them. The final rank of "One minute" I'm guessing is an entire rank of levels each having a 1-minute time limit and seems to have been inspired by the One rank of PimoLems, for which Pieuw did exactly that.

In contrast to the previous pack, DavidLems is far harder, almost akin to ONML's difficulty compared to L1, but DavidLems' difficulty far exceeds ONML. I haven't played a pack this hard in a really long time. However, as I have stated plenty of times, I relish difficult levels in the game of Lemmings and will happily take them on. There's been plenty of great levels here which I deem LOTY nomination worthy for next year's LOTY. Plenty of the levels have had me constantly come up at least a skill short, so it definitely reminds me of when I played through Lemmings United a few years ago. David has definitely improved tremendously in his craft since his first level pack. Though I'm currently a bit into the 400 metres rank, I'm convinced that David was inspired by plenty of levels/packs that he might had played and seen the solutions to. I even see some inspiration from my own levels in some of the solutions! :thumbsup: However, one of them I don't think came from mine, as it came a few months after David released this pack :laugh: In any case, it always makes me happy to see levels from others where I can see some inspiration from either one of my levels or from some others that I have played and solved :)

Needless to say, DavidLems really reminds me of NepsterLems in plenty of ways: Small to medium levels in size, very minimal skillsets, and there being so many possibilities that look like they could work but they don't, i.e, levels with very high entropy, as Icho would put it. Only, IMO DavidLems is far harder and it doesn't stick to only the classic 8 skills like Nepster's pack does. Also the levels in general here seem to be much smaller in size in contrast to plenty of levels in The Lemmings Have Grown pack. David truly has amazed me at how he managed to make extremely deceptively difficult levels here! :thumbsup: As plenty can attest to, including myself, these levels with minimal skillsets give the appearance of an easy level but in actuality are quite difficult if done properly. These were most definitely done right!

Finally, DavidLems continues to impress me in the visual designs of the levels, as I would expect from someone like David, given what I've seen in his first level pack which absolutely blew me away in how amazing they look :thumbsup: DavidLems is also a huge improvement from his first level pack in terms of the puzzles/solutions :thumbsup:

100 metres Rank Feedback

Being the first rank of the pack, these are the "easiest" levels of the pack. However, in my experiences these are considerably far harder than the first rank levels of his previous level pack. In addition, there still seems to be a very wonky difficulty curve. For example, I got stumped on the very first level of the pack for a good 25 minutes or so. Even though it only gives you two miners, IMO this level is way too difficult to be the first level of the pack. It needs to move down to later in the rank, and I believe there's one suitable level I found in which it can swap positions with.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

200 meters Rank Feedback

These levels are much harder than the ones in the previous rank. Quite so, as a few levels managed to stump me good and I needed to switch to off camera time to get them solved. Like the previous rank, there's at least one level here that I consider too difficult for its position and will definitely need to move to later in the rank. Even then, some truly remarkable gems here too that I also consider LOTY nomination worthy. This rank in a way reminds me of the Neutrality rank of United, which is a massive jump up in difficulty from the previous rank of Pacifism.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can't wait to look at your solutions. But I don't think this pack will seem too difficult for you. You've already solved some (very) difficult packs, including Armani's Lemmings Halloween 2023 :evil::scared:, which I'm currently playing. It's not easy ! :D

I appreciate the compliment in you thinking that your pack won't be hard for me due to having solved a lot of really difficult packs, including Lemmings United, Lemmings Plus Omega 2, Lemmings Uncharted, and NepsterLems :thumbsup: However, this turns out not to be the case, as this pack is really kicking my behind quite badly :laugh: As mentioned before, this pack really reminds me of NepsterLems. Definitely take a look at that one if you haven't yet. It's an amazing pack that manages to be quite difficult despite being only a classic 8 skills pack. DavidLems has a lot of bite, but I personally love hard levels in the game of Lemmings, so I will gladly take them on, including this pack of yours :thumbsup: I just didn't expect the pack to stump me so badly as it has been. Then again, I've returned to Lemmings after a 3-month hiatus, so perhaps I've rusted in the meantime and hence have forgotten and overlooked even some "simple" things in levels. Again, I will carry through for as long as I can until I finish the pack :thumbsup:

Yes, Armani's Lemmings Halloween 2023 pack is quite a difficult pack, but you're not alone with struggling with it, as I did too when I LPed his pack. It might not be anywhere near as hard as Lemmings Uncharted, his first pack, but it's difficult in plenty of places in both ranks. It's another pack that I didn't expect to also stump me badly. I do agree with Armani's assessment that the zombie levels in the second rank are in general easier than the first rank, which doesn't have any zombie levels. I guess it's kind of a good thing, considering I tend to struggle a lot with zombie levels. If you want a really fiendishly difficult zombie pack, take a look at namida's Doomsday Lemmings. Armani's zombie levels in his pack don't come anywhere near as difficult as namida's pack.

In any case, happy to hear you're doing well and that I think you'll enjoy my LP of another one of your packs! :thumbsup: I do apologize for the long videos, as well as any long periods of idling I might have done on some levels where I haven't done anything on screen in a while. Even then, hope it's still enjoyable watching me solve your levels :)

New roadblock is currently 400 metres 3, but I'll figure it out eventually, just like I have with all the other levels of the pack without any help :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 03:52:53 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2024, 12:38:27 AM »
Hi kaywhyn,

When you have finished my pack, I will update it and provide detailed feedback level by level. :D

I have already started to fix some issues (in about 10 levels). No backroute yet, but you have sometimes found alternative solutions close to the intented solutions. I'm also thinking about swapping levels because, like you said, some are too difficult. :devil:

--> Level 200 meters 4 has a HUGE PROBLEM: the solution you found doesn't work for me. ???

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Armani has found the intended solution. 8-)

edit by kaywhyn: Spoiler tagged a part of your post! ;)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 12:56:22 AM by kaywhyn »
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]

Online kaywhyn

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2024, 12:54:03 AM »
@David

I checked my replay for 200 metres 4 on both 12.12.5 (the version I'm playing your pack on), as well as 12.13 RC and it works on both. There's no bug or issue with the Lemming surviving :P However, what is the issue is why my replay doesn't work for you. ???

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, happy to hear from you and that you're enjoying my LP of your pack! :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2024, 01:14:02 AM »
Sorry, I looked too quickly, I hadn't paid attention to the stair step at the exit. :-[ It's a brilliant alternative solution ! :thumbsup:
I really like your LP. ;) Moreover, you made me laugh with your mother's snoring. :D
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]

Offline Mobiethian

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2024, 12:12:29 PM »
David, I wanted to give you a shout out that you've done an amazing, extraordinary job with your level pack! :thumbsup: I want to thank you for providing these levels to us for figuring out. Very entertaining!

I don't play hard levels often, but I've watched the LPs and you've done so great! Keep up the work, you're really good at it. 8-)

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2024, 04:36:33 PM »
Thank you very much Mobiethian. :D I am very happy that you like my level pack. There are some amazing level designers in this forum. I don't think I'm one of them but I've progressed quite a bit since my first pack. ;P
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]

Offline WillLem

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2024, 03:49:19 PM »
Hi David,

Eric has reported on Discord that the Slider fix present in NeoLemmix 12.13-RC and SuperLemmix (all versions) results in the following behaviour on level 100 Metres 18:

NeoLemmix 12.13-RC solve
SuperLemmix solve

Thought it best to bring this to your attention in case you wanted to fix this level :)

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2024, 05:52:49 PM »
Hi WillLem,

Thank you very much for letting me know. I fixed the issue. :thumbsup:
I'll probably update my pack once kaywhyn has solved all the levels.
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]

Online kaywhyn

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2024, 09:17:23 PM »
I've solved the 400 metres One minute ranks and therefore have solved the rest of the pack :thumbsup: My entire replay collection is attached and of course more feedback :)

400 metres Rank Feedback

Although there is one more rank of 10 levels afterwards, this is pretty much the third and final main rank of the pack. Thus, the hardest levels of the pack are pretty much here. Indeed, I would consider many of these levels to rival the difficulty of the Genocide rank from United and the Aquarius rank from Uncharted. Meaning, I agree with Crane's assessment that the 400 metres rank quite possibly even goes all the way to "extreme" difficulty! In addition, I'm inclined to also agree with Crane that there's really only a few levels in the Chaos rank from his Cranium pack that go up to "extreme" difficulty, so we both seem to agree that the 400 metres rank of DavidLems is much harder than the Chaos rank of Cranium. It's not to say that Lemmings Cranium isn't a really hard pack, because it most definitely is, but rather the 400 metres rank of DavidLems is way more likely to have a vast majority of players stumped for a really long time. Indeed, a quick glance back at my DavidLems videos, a lot of levels have me doing an attempt one on camera and then I spend a really long time/a few days off-camera before I finally get the level solved. Not so with Lemmings Cranium, as I often was able to get the Chaos levels solved within a somewhat reasonable amount of time within the same day or so.

I essentially describe DavidLems as "NepsterLems but far harder and one which uses all 21 NL skills rather than just sticking to the classic 8 skills." It very much reminds me of NepsterLems because of how the levels are generally small/medium in size (except for one really wide level in the 100 metres rank but in general DavidLems all tends to much smaller level sizes, in contrast to the many very big and wide levels in The Lemmings Have Grown pack) with very minimal skillsets and there being so many possibilities (very high entropy, as Icho would say) that look like they could work but ultimately don't, therefore resulting in very deceptively difficult levels, all of which are very typical of Nepster's levels/pack. Needless to say, to a very large extent I think David has managed to succeed in creating a NepsterLems-like pack with DavidLems! :thumbsup:

Despite the 400 metres rank being extremely hard, there are still a lot of true gems here that I consider LOTY2024 nomination worthy! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

One minute Rank Feedback

As the player might guess, the levels here are all ones with a time limit of 1 minute. Also if you have played it, the rank seems to have been heavily inspired by the One rank of PimoLems, which I know David has played through back around the time he released his first level pack The Lemmings Have Grown. While most of the levels here aren't anything too special compared to the One rank of Pieuw's pack and that if you great levels of this style that I recommend looking at PimoLems for that, I still applaud David for trying to imitate this style of levels from the latter's! ;) The One minute rank is pretty much in a class of its own in terms of difficulty, where these aren't anywhere near as hard as the levels in the previous 3 ranks. The hardest levels of the rank IMO are both the final two, with One minute 5 being a close third to them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Once again, @David a job well-done with this pack! :thumbsup: One of the hardest I've played in a long time but is absolutely one of my favorite packs of all time :) Maybe a few backroutes here, but maybe they're all intended/acceptable. Looking forward to your feedback and am happy to hear you're enjoying my LP videos of your pack! :thumbsup: 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2024, 01:17:00 AM »
Quote
Honestly, i'd rate some of the "400 metres" levels as "Extreme" difficulty!  I'm having a bit of a playthrough myself after watching kaywhyn's "Let's Play".

Sorry Crane, I didn't see your message. ;) I just asked kaywhyn what he thought. I was thinking of putting medium-very hard, but since he seems to agree with you, I'll probably put medium-extreme. Thank you.

kaywhyn, I will provide detailed feedback soon.
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]

Online kaywhyn

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2024, 11:53:38 AM »
It's tough, because I can definitely see the majority of players being stuck for days in the 400 metres rank with plenty of the levels. In this case, that would be "extreme" difficulty. At the same time, I could see your classification of Medium - Very Hard working, but personally it's like really close on the very high end, like essentially borderline of Very Hard/Extreme for the 400 metres rank. I can still see a few problem levels in the previous two ranks too, but save for a few that are currently very misplaced way too early in them, most of the very difficult levels come at the end of the rank and hence it does make think that fairly decent players will be fine for the most part for the 100 and 200 metres ranks. Then I can see your classification working here. However, very advanced understanding of the NL mechanics will be needed in order to get through the 400 metres rank, as I don't see much chance for those players who even have the least decent bit of understanding of them of beating the rank. Then the "very hard" difficulty label on the high end of the difficulty would be very misleading for this pack.

Needless to say, I say Medium - Extreme is fine here despite most of the levels of the pack across the 3 main ranks being "hard" and with some levels near the end of the first two ranks being "very hard" ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2024, 03:31:49 PM »
Thank you for this relevant answer kaywhyn. I really didn't think this pack would be so difficult! Anyway, you and Crane know how to gauge the difficulty of a level better than me. ;) I therefore choose "medium-extreme".
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]

Offline David

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Re: DavidLems (70 levels) [Difficulty: Medium - Extreme]
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2024, 04:46:11 PM »
Hi kaywhyn,

My first pack was a mishmash of everything I had done for years, since discovering Neolemmix. It was a bit messy. :D DavidLems is more accomplished. Since 2020, I have discovered and tried some level packs that have fed my imagination and I have listened a lot to the advice of players (including you) who tested my previous pack; in this pack, the level titles are in english, there are only two levels with a lot of builders, there is no unnecessary time limit, and the objects (unlock button and exit) are generally clearly visible. :P

Thanks for your feedback and for your compliments. I’m very happy that you enjoyed this pack and I didn’t think it would be so difficult (for you). Following your LP, which was exciting to watch :thumbsup:, I made little changes to about fifteen levels and swapped a few levels to better flatten the difficulty curve.

Generally, you found the intended solution, but for a few levels, you found an alternative solution (often more complicated).

1) 100 metres rank:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2) 200 metres rank:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3) 400 metres rank:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4) One minute rank:

Quote
the rank seems to have been heavily inspired by the One rank of PimoLems, which I know David has played through back around the time he released his first level pack The Lemmings Have Grown

Yes, I used the concept of PimoLems' excellent rank One. ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also thanks to Mobiethian who made a great logo for my pack! :thumbsup:
My level packs:
1) The Lemmings Have Grown [Medium-Hard]
2) DavidLems [Medium-Extreme]