Author Topic: [Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!  (Read 23608 times)

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Offline mobius

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[Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!
« on: November 12, 2013, 01:56:28 am »
---I greatly apologize for the huge delay. But it is now finally here!---

Hello Lemmings fans and Lemmini players. Below is a huge levelpack, playable in Lemmini; The Lemmings Community Compilation Levelpack, otherwise known as "Revenge of the Lemmings"

This pack consists of 210 levels in 7 ratings! It is recommended you the read the READ ME file that comes with it; this contains a lot of info and a list of all the authors who contributed to the pack.

downloads

see this post: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1676.msg68483#msg68483



<strong>How to Install Lemmini version</strong>

note: the pack is separated in two parts (first four ratings in one, last three in the second) this is to allow passwords for every level, they don't work otherwise with more than 130 levels. There are two folders.

 - close Lemmini before doing this
 - Put the "Revenge of the Lemmings" folders into the "levels" folder of Lemmini. You must put EACH folder (part 1 and part 2) into your Lemmini/levels/ folder.  [Don't put one inside the other]
 - start Lemmini and look under "Level > select level > Revenge of the Lemmings" to select your level and begin the game!

-to add the custom music: unzip the contents of the music zipfolder into your music folder in Lemmini.

-enter 0xdeadbeef as a code to disable all passwords and gain access to any level.


<strong>How to Install Lemmix version</strong>

-unzip contents and double-click on LemmixPlayerRevenge.exe. That's it!

Enter "CHEATCODES", or in the INI file, set CheatCodes to 1. Then you can instantly win a level by pressing 5.


<strong>IMPORTANT STUFF:</strong>

who is in charge of compiling the levels: mobius and Akseli.
compiled and created the Lemmix DOS version: namida.
We want to thank each and everyone of all the authors who created all the levels and everyone who helped prepare the pack by nominating levels, testing and etc.

While we went through each level and made sure it is playable and solvable with as few backroutes as possible we're not perfect. If you've found a problem, a backroute or have any questions or comments please let us know here or you can PM me. Also; Feel free to discuss the pack here and offer your thoughts and opinions.

-----------------------

<strong>Ratings:</strong>

-PICNIC-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Preview1Countree.jpg" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

"Remember how to play?"
This is the first rating and a warm up to the ordeal you're about to face. It's a good place to brush up on your skills and remember all of the many facets and tricks to the Lemmings world. Some levels give you plenty of skills, others have few but make it obvious what to do. It starts out easy but by the end of Picnic, the game already becomes a challenge.

-HOOTENANNY-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Preview2Think.jpg" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

"More fun than a pair of pants filled with Lemmings"
Like Picnic, but harder. It's time to start thinking. You're faced with an assortment of challenges: skill allotment, time issues, multitasking,
and some tricks that may be new to you, if you're new to Lemmings

-FRENZY-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Preview1Betcha.jpg" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

"Use the Grey Matter here"
Things are heating up, but the real test is just beginning. You're in the third rating, so there's no more fooling around. Learn from the trials you already passed. Learn from the levels you play here.

-PAIN-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/behind bars.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

"In the fun way; not like the Chips Challenge level of the same name"
Now we kick it up a notch. Be prepared for out-of-the-box thinking and stretching your Lemmings knowledge beyond new limits. Don't expect to play the same old game of Taxing and Mayhem, but do not lose hope. As a wise man once said; “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for an arrogant man to enter the kingdom of Lemmings"

-CARNAGE-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Preview5Crevasse.jpg" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

"Honey, I shrunk the Lemmings..."
If you've learned anything so far, it's to never make quick assumptions. Of course I guess that's advice useful in any part of life. Just know that there are some truly unique creations here. You need to utilize every single aspect of this game.

-ARMAGEDDON-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Preview6Duality.jpg" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

"This ain't your Parent's Lemmings"
Still think you're a Lemmings' Master? Think Again.
ENTER ONLY IF YE BE MEN OF VALOR... FOR THE LEVELS THAT LIE WITHIN ARE SO FOUL, SO CRUEL... THAT NO MAN HAS YET ATTEMPTED THEM AND LIVED! BONES OF MEN LAY STREWN ABOUT IN FRONT OF IDLING COMPUTERS.
SO BRAVE GAMERS, IF YOU DO DOUBT YER COURAGE, OR YER STRENGTH, COME NO FURTHER FOR DEATH AWAITS YOU ALL! ...with a nasty, big, red tongue of the chameleon, coming to swallow up your lemmings.

-BONUS-

<img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Preview7Glitch.jpg" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

Up until now, all the levels you have played have been fair. Some of these are not. Here are levels of the strange and bizarre, levels that use glitches or behavior that is specific to Lemmini (and no other console or clone of Lemmings). If you are not familiar with all the mechanics and glitches of Lemmini, it might be best to visit the forum and find a topic called "glitches in Lemmini". Be prepared to exercise many unusual methods to defeat these levels.

------

BIG thanks to:

Akseli, Gronkling, Clam Spammer, geoo, Crane, Proxima;
(for playtesting, suggestions, thoughts, and other help)

Pieuw (for technical help)
namida (for compiling the Lemmix version)
Crane (for custom Lemmini music)
ccexplore (for coding and technical help)
Mindless (for upkeeping the database where many levels are stored)
Eric Lang (who created Lemmix, a Lemmings level editor)
Volker Oth (who created Lemmini)
DMA design for creating Lemmings way back in 1991
AND every single person who made a level in this pack of course <img src="http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Without these people the pack would not have been possible. If I forgot to mention anybody please let me know.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 12:39:31 am by mobius »
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline Simon

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 07:00:56 am »
Lots of work and love put into this compilation.

I've played a couple from the first two ratings, enjoyed the mix really well, except for lots of time limits, but that was expected due to age and source of the levels. :-)

Great choice of first screenshot in the original post, I love the trees!

-- Simon

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 08:58:32 am »
Do you want a Lemmix version of this made? I can put together a player for you. I PM'ed you with details.

There's no limit on how many levels a Lemmix player can have. While the vanilla source code is limited (like the original game) to 10 VGASPECs and 10 standard graphic sets, I can't imagine it'd be very hard to work around that limit if nessecary. The most difficult part is the 7 (or 6, since you'd probably want to drop Bonus due to Lemmini-specific mechanics being used) difficutly ranks - while Lemmix would have no problem handling this, MAIN.DAT only has room for 5 difficulty rank graphics for the main menu. But, I should be able to get around this - either by using external BMPs for the graphics (like LPDOS does) or possibly by adding an extra section in MAIN.DAT solely for these graphics, and re-coding Lemmix to refer to that for them instead of the usual location.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Minim

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 10:24:54 am »
As the general public say, "I'm excited. Can't wait to play it!" I say the exact same thing here.

PS: That BONUS level reminds me of a term that I made up which means that terrain pieces are placed randomly. I called it a WTF level. There's lots of crazy #hit there if you're interested!
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 09:15:56 pm »
thanks. :) "I've been in the compilation pack work for so long, now that it's over... I don't know what to do with my life"  :D

I added to the top: passwords only work up to level 130.
I don't have a list of passwords. Hopefully at some point I will. It depends on if I ever feel like taking the time to do that. (you have to play through every single level and write it down... and after already playing all of them at least once or twice, I'm kind of tired of that right now  :P )

the third screenshot is old; taken before a backroute was fixed by adding a small piece of steel next to the one exit.

I should've probably mentioned what those levels are:

In the Countree by Martin Z
Think Again by Weirdybeardy
Betcha Can't Save Just One! by InsaneSteve
Behind Bars by Proxima
Crevasse by Clam Spammer
Duality by Yawg
GLITCHSPACE by Gronkling
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 10:06:56 pm »
Wow, I find this style of presentation with pictures and all for a new level pack cool. :P Before PimoLems I guess that ssam1221 found out that he could present his level pack with some pictures. One time you möbius were talking about making a trailer video in YouTube, do I remember correctly? :D

Btw, opening a level in Lemmini and pressing “s” will create a screenshot of the whole level, and it’s stored in the resource directory and called “level.png”.

I am a perfectionist. I’d most likely have postponed the release million times if I had worked with the pack on my own. There surely is still lots and lots to improve, but I’m happy that möbius can settle down even some extent now that the pack is out. :D For example, putting about 200 levels in a neat difficulty curve is a thing that could be changed eternally...

So I was a bit afraid if this pack was made rushing and doing carelessly, but now that I look at it, it looks really impressive. I particularly love the later ratings, where every single level seem to be really awesome in my opinion. Well done, möbius!

Möbius did almost all of the job. I ordered the Bonus rating levels, and gave some tips of level difficulties in other ratings, but möbius decided the places of the levels in the other ratings, so for example, he determined which levels received the honour to be possibly memorable levels to start or finish the standard ratings. :P Möbius also decided in the end about every level he wanted to take to the pack.

It felt very heart-warming to read Simon’s comment. :) I also was the most worried about the first two difficulty ratings.
Möbius is the only one who knows how every level is solved. He included this pack some levels that remain still unsolved for me, and I’m willing to try to solve them now. :P

Some notes about the pack:
-   The steel areas are not perfect for Lemmini. There are likely cases where lemmings will dig into steel or stop digging already before hitting steel. This is quite a big task to fix for every level, I might go for it soon, but we didn’t find it to be so critical issue, that the release should have been postponed because of it.
-   We aimed to keep levels as original as possible. I think möbius centered only like two levels that were originally completely at the edge of the map (?).
-   Same issue with the screen starts, we didn’t touch them at all. The reason why some screen starts might look odd is that Lemmini shows bigger part of a level at once. The x-positions of the screen starts of the levels are original, but the screen start in Lemmini extends further to the right than in Lemmix. Ie. those levels that are originally made for Lemmix, have screen starts focused a bit to the right.
-   This level pack reflects the custom Lemmings scene in many different ways: For example, I feel that the difficulty gets mayhem-like already in the late Picnic in this level pack. Of course, custom levels in general tend to be challenging compared to the official games. Also, there’s for example very few Snow tileset levels in this pack (and for example lots of Marble levels), and that’s also the case in the whole custom level scene in general what I’ve seen.

Btw, ClamSpam05 was the only level pack from where EVERY LEVEL ended up to the compilation pack, any other pack wasn’t even close to it. Congratulations Clam, for creating an awesome and appreciated pack! :P (I myself liked all of the levels except “Works on so many levels…” but möbius liked that one, too.)

I’m starting to play this pack through now. :P Yeaeaeaeaaahhhh

Offline LJLPM

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 10:50:31 pm »
Congratulations for the release of this pack!

Offline Clam

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 08:26:19 am »
Congrats on seeing this through to completion! :thumbsup: I'm sure many other fan sites could learn a thing or two from this! And I love the write-up too :D

Btw, ClamSpam05 was the only level pack from where EVERY LEVEL ended up to the compilation pack, any other pack wasn’t even close to it. Congratulations Clam, for creating an awesome and appreciated pack! :P
What can I say but, wow, that's really neat. Thanks! 8)

Offline Martin Z

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 07:34:16 pm »
Strictly OT: Is there a full screen mode in Lemmini? It's too damn small for precise gameplay, and it doesn't feel like the real thing either (imho).

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 09:07:55 pm »
Strictly OT: Is there a full screen mode in Lemmini? It's too damn small for precise gameplay, and it doesn't feel like the real thing either (imho).

not that I know of sorry. these are some drawbacks. This game is totally open source I believe so it can be modified. Though nobody with the knowledge seems inclined to do so lately (or at least has released anything)
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Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 09:24:48 pm »
That'd be another advantage of getting it running on Lemmix, since Lemmix is natively full-screen. (Also the fact that it mimics the original game mechanics perfectly; which if I'm not mistaken is what most if not all of these levels were originally made for?)
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Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2013, 02:55:15 am »
Certainly not all, because I see Behind Bars there, which was originally made for Cheapo. (Well, all right, it originally came from my notebook levels, which weren't intended for any game mechanics in particular, but Mac Lemmings if anything. Anyway, the readme file tells me Rhapsody in Blue is in there, and that had no existence prior to Cheapo.)

I'm very glad a couple of my levels got in, and thank you for remaking them -- looks like you did an excellent job. I'd have liked to see more of my levels make the cut, but I know most of the old ones aren't very good (and many of the better ones would be ineligible, due to using custom objects, like The Hotel in Hell, or vertical scrolling, like Down Among the Dead Lemmings). So no complaints, and I look forward to the second volume  8)  If you do decide to include any of mine in the second volume then, again, I'm happy to put in the work to remake them if it's necessary, though it is difficult for me to find the time. Also, I don't know if you consider them eligible, but some of my Lix levels don't use the new skills and could be suitable, such as Thomas the Climber.

Offline geoo

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 05:32:17 pm »
Do you want a Lemmix version of this made? I can put together a player for you. I PM'ed you with details.
I for one would greatly appreciate it. Lemmini is one of the factors why I haven't go that far into PimoLems yet.

Actually, I was wondering, how hard would it be to make a customizable version of Lemmix where you can freely replace most of the files? I mean, there's an .ini file that allows specifying which physics to use (maybe your bomber behaviour could be added to that, and the names and lengths of each stage, and maybe configurable keys bindings). Then you'd just have to replace the level files, add graphics files maybe if you want custom graphics (while the CustLemm assignment could be default), and the pictures containing the stage names on the title screen.
I'll gladly look into the code for this, I just can't compile it because I don't have Delphi 7 (and the torrents I found seem to be virus infested).

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2013, 08:39:40 pm »
I did look into it at one point, but back then I couldn't work out how to make it look for an external file isntead of an internal one (I was working from the Lemmix Player; it sounds like you're working from the editor). I might try looking into it again at some point; my goal was basically to make a CustLemm Lemmix Player (which would look to external LEVELPAK.DAT file) - I guess now, it would also have to look for external ground/vgagr/vgaspec files.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2013, 09:14:42 pm »
I've already discovered or have been told about a number of issues. I will make an update in a few days perhaps. The download link will remain the same, just use that.
------------

I know this is most likely impossible but is there some way or program that could quickly convert all the ini files automatically? Anyway, some levels will need to be edited for working in Lemmix as well (and while you may be thinking it would easier in that vain to take them from their original packs, some had backroute in Lemmix in their original packs)

adding a batch process like this to a level editor might be a good idea (even though it might rarely get used)

-----------
these levels were not all designed for the same thing, some were for LemEdit, some Lemmix, some for Lemmini and some for Cheapo.

there are levels by Proxima, and some other people who I doubt are around from Cheapo that I liked and wanted for the second pack. And I'd like to get all the rest of the contest levels working for this too, it's just that some levels like Evacuating a retirement home and Stroke at Retirement Age, were so difficult to get working.
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Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2013, 09:23:24 pm »
I might be able to whip up a batch convertor... I'll look into it a bit later on today.

So, leave the levels to me... but any custom graphics or anything you want (rank signs?)? Also - Lemmini uses ONML fall distance and entrance order, correct?
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline jammer64

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2013, 10:03:51 pm »
I also cannot wait for Lemmix port!

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2013, 10:48:32 am »
I'm loving the challenges so far - some of the levels look absolutely gorgeous, and others have very clever solutions.

Quote from: Spoiler
Just a word of warning though... the level "Wish you had them?" carries a high risk of crashing the game due to the 'basher at the top of the screen' bug, so be careful where you place the basher.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 04:09:41 pm »
Some of my older levels, such as this one have some really bad errors such as that one, here's a fixed version. (Put it in the next version)

Also I haven't yet commented on this pack, I haven't got that far into it yet due to not really being that into lemmings at the moment. I'll give a bigger comment once I've finished it. But I'm very happy to see it released!  :)
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2013, 10:12:25 pm »
Haven't forgotten about this, don't worry! I have my last exam today so I'll get onto this within the next few days.
My released level packs:
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Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2013, 09:46:52 pm »
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Revenge%20of%20the%20Lemmings.zip

updated with some major fixes. First of all, the whole game is now in two folders. You must put EACH folder (part 1 and part 2) into your Lemmini/levels/ folder.  [Don't put one inside the other]

made some corrections to problems with first release. Thanks to everyone who reported a problem.

To anyone playing Carnage levels and higher; if you're willing could you write down all the passwords you get and send them to me whenever.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2013, 12:14:28 am »
I'm working on the Lemmix port now. =)

The batch converter's got objects and terrain nailed, but still seems to be some problems with steel that need fixing...
Have you made graphics for the difficulty rank signs yet?

EDIT: Done. I didn't manually test all the levels though; I did test a few of them and most seem to be fine but a few might need some minor adjustments. I PM'ed you with copies of the converted levels as well as a current build of the Lemmix player (and some blank images that are the right size and background color for rank graphics). It'll at least be a lot less work than converting them one by one.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Tim

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2013, 07:26:37 am »
As I probably mentioned last time, I regret not being able to contribute to this awesome level pack! It sounds like it was a huge job with tons of contributors and a great team of people to produce it!

That being said, I would love to contribute to the next one. Most of my levels that I have re-released to the forum are Fun based levels, but I heard that they are needed. I am a fan of making cosmetic levels more than difficulty levels because (lets face it) I am not all that good at making those kinds of levels (despite the fact that it has been years since I last created levels). I know that I have levels in my collection that probably should not even exist, which brings me to my question of the day.

Exactly how would I contribute to the next levelpack? Would there be level testers/players that would vote on which levels they like in my collection and then add them to it? For example, I heard that one of my levels 'Fangorn Forest' was a favourite with some people. Would this be how it would work?

Okay, that was 3 questions, sorry :P

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2013, 10:17:16 pm »
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Revenge%20of%20the%20Lemmings_LEMMIX%20%20BETA.zip

here is the BETA version of the Lemmix version! So if you're willing to test it or just really excited to play, please do so.
As Namida said most of the levels work however some may not. You can of course disable passwords by entering ________ or doing something (can you answer that namida?)

To play simply unzip, and click on the LemmixRevengePlayer.exe!

Thanks very much to namida for making this, (doing all the work!)

Tasks left for this part are:
-checking all levels for solvability and stability
-Replacing any levels that may need to be
-Making the rating pictures for the menu screen.

--------

@Tim: if you'd like to contribute, send me some levels via PM. They can be any ones you choose. You're favorites, or like the one you mentioned. Try to pick your best looking, most fun, and levels that teach a new skill or technique are nice as well.

PM because I haven't made the topic yet. I am making the list and will upload it when I'm done making my nominations. If the list becomes much larger than 200 levels then a voting phase will commence (hopefully one a little more productive than the last one...) but if not we will use all ~180 levels that were selected!
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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Offline grams88

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2013, 10:35:27 pm »
Hi everyone

This sounds like an interesting topic, I was wondering if I could contribute or is it too late.  Even though I don't have that many levels but with the ones I do have I could probably pick one of my favorites. I haven't tested my levels in anything apart from the Lemmini program.


Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2013, 10:44:35 pm »
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Revenge%20of%20the%20Lemmings_LEMMIX%20%20BETA.zip

here is the BETA version of the Lemmix version! So if you're willing to test it or just really excited to play, please do so.
As Namida said most of the levels work however some may not. You can of course disable passwords by entering ________ or doing something (can you answer that namida?)

Enter "CHEATCODES", or in the INI file, set CheatCodes to 1. Then you can instantly win a level by pressing 5. You can also skip straight to a level by entering the rank and position as a code (eg: FUN10) - however for this pack, this might not work due to the length of some rank names... :/ I'll have to look into that.

Should also be noted that none of the in-game text (except the difficulty rank names) has been customized from the ONML Lemmix Player. I don't know how important that is, though. =P Up to mobius really.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Tim

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2013, 07:46:24 am »
@Tim: if you'd like to contribute, send me some levels via PM. They can be any ones you choose. You're favorites, or like the one you mentioned. Try to pick your best looking, most fun, and levels that teach a new skill or technique are nice as well.

PM because I haven't made the topic yet. I am making the list and will upload it when I'm done making my nominations. If the list becomes much larger than 200 levels then a voting phase will commence (hopefully one a little more productive than the last one...) but if not we will use all ~180 levels that were selected!

Are you referring to the current level pack or a new one that is yet to be compiled? I am unsure which levels I will want to add, I dont remember how many of them look after all these years :P

Offline Martin Z

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2013, 12:34:33 pm »
Thanks a lot for the Lemmix version! Looks and feels exactly like the original Lemmings games. There's still some problems, of course (exits that don't work, misplaced steel areas), but it's already great fun! Thx again!

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2013, 01:16:52 pm »
Thanks a lot for the Lemmix version! Looks and feels exactly like the original Lemmings games. There's still some problems, of course (exits that don't work, misplaced steel areas), but it's already great fun! Thx again!

That's the advantage and drawback at the same time of Lemmix. It mimics the original games with something like 98% accuracy. Even down to the internal workings and glitches etc.
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Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2013, 09:48:48 pm »
Thanks a lot for the Lemmix version! Looks and feels exactly like the original Lemmings games. There's still some problems, of course (exits that don't work, misplaced steel areas), but it's already great fun! Thx again!

yes, it's not a final version. and -TO ANYONE- if you're playing the Lemmix version and you find a level that does not work make a note of this and post about it please? I don't need details just the level that has problems.
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Offline Pieuw

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 11:18:56 am »
The Lemmini link appears to be broken. :'(

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2013, 09:18:36 pm »
The Lemmini link appears to be broken. :'(

thank you! -FIXED-
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2013, 01:25:06 am »
Just started playing the Lemmix version.

So far, this is a really great pack -- a nice difficulty curve, and several levels that are easy to pass are interesting to solve for max %.

All the spaces are missing from level names  :'(

I've reached Picnic 14, Crunch Time, and... either something's wrong with the level or I'm missing a trick. You have to save 90% of 50 lemmings, but only 25 lemmings come out!

The exits on a few levels are non-functional: so far, Picnic 15, 21 and 23.

Skills stop working much closer to steel than I would like -- this makes some levels, like More Wee Creatures, extremely frustrating. (Either that, or steel areas don't seem to match very closely to visible steel terrain -- the latter seems to be the case on Picnic 30.)

EDIT: Removed % saved records. I've saved the ones I have so far to a text file, and I'll put them back here if I finish the pack.

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2013, 01:52:46 am »
The spaces missing in level names is due to the way my Lemmings libraries handle INI files. Lemmini level names aside, there's no need for it to recognize spaces, so I never actually coded it to do so. :/ Anyway, the Lemmix player is still a beta version at this point. Apart from while I'm away this week, I'm always ready to do what needs to be done on my side, but it's primarily Mobius's project so it's up to him if and when he wants to fix the levels, titles etc - I'm just the guy compiling the Lemmix player. =)
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Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2013, 02:25:28 am »
thanks for reporting. It helps because I really don't have the time or inclination to go through every single level myself.

until I look at it, can't image what's wrong with Crunch Time  ??? could be too many objects, I'll look into it.

the steel issues on levels like More Wee Creatures is nothing on my end cause that was Clam's level design for Lemmix. [if I had to guess I'd say you're going about the level wrong  :P I ran into this issue with this level too until I found a much easier solution]

don't know how to fix the names at all, myself. Oh and I just realized, I didn't put any README file into the Lemmix version did I?
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2013, 02:27:48 am »
I notice the same thing with Crunch Time. One of the entrances probably ended up outside the level boundaries somehow.

I might try and write another program to fix up the names... it is a bit of a pain to do manually...
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2013, 02:43:36 am »
[if I had to guess I'd say you're going about the level wrong  :P I ran into this issue with this level too until I found a much easier solution]

Well, of course I was going for 96% and not just the minimum  :P

Finished playing Picnic now, apart from a few levels that aren't working (all listed in above post). Mostly, it's a very nice set -- several levels I was familiar with, but also some nice ones I hadn't seen before. The only level I really didn't like was Snowed In, a precision test that would be just about okay, were it not that the exit blends into the terrain and makes it impossible to see the spot you're aiming for. The difficulty curve was pretty decent throughout, though it got tough towards the end, making "Picnic" not really a very appropriate title for the set. The only level I felt was out of place was Altitude Training, which is pretty tricky, especially as it also demands a lot of precision.

Offline Clam

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2013, 05:18:29 am »
Skills stop working much closer to steel than I would like -- this makes some levels, like More Wee Creatures, extremely frustrating.

The steel there extends beyond the terrain by 2 pixels sideways (to prevent easy destruction by falling bombers) and 3 pixels upwards (because of the 4x4 grids - any further down and you could just blow up the top of the steel). Are you trying to bomb a lemming inside this region?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2013, 12:26:02 pm »
After building from where the top-right lemmings start to the middle wall, I found it very difficult to bomb this bridge. Is the steel around the middle wall also extended?

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2013, 01:45:02 am »
I've fixed all the levels Proxima mentioned and I've fixed two others I knew about:

Times Four (circular clicking)
Life in the 3rd Dimension!

I didn't touch More wee creatures, I'll let Clam handle that one. I believe namida is away for a few days, in the meantime I will look for more levels to fix.
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2013, 06:23:32 am »
After building from where the top-right lemmings start to the middle wall, I found it very difficult to bomb this bridge. Is the steel around the middle wall also extended?



and the same (mirrored) on the other side.

Offline Martin Z

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2013, 05:16:19 pm »
I've played most of the levels now and it seems that all the steel areas are misplaced to the right.

So many great levels, btw!

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2013, 01:23:28 pm »
I've sent möbius updated versions of Lemming Cathodes and Prize Catch (the latter was an old copy that has backroutes), and also an updated music list as per his request.  Let's see how that performs.

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2013, 10:14:15 pm »
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Revenge%20of%20the%20Lemmings%20LEMMINI.zip

updated!

what Crane mentioned; custom music now added.  :D With the download link is now a folder of extra music.
This is an optional feature. I'm not sure what happens if you play without having the proper music files...  :-\

------
When I install the pack into my folder and open Lemmini I keep getting random levels available that I haven't played yet and I don't know why. I think this is I problem I alone have however, but let me know if anyone else experiences this.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2013, 12:21:47 am »
Before LPII pack was released, I managed to play this pack till Armageddon 22: "Down the cliff", which is geoo's level, and now I'm stuck. :D I solved all the Bonus levels also, so I have those 9 last Armageddon levels to go now. I remember trying "Down the cliff" a lot in geooPk0 Lemmix pack also, so I might be stuck for a while... :P

Levels I hadn't solved before this compilation pack:
Picnic 12: "Not a Basher Tutorial" by Gronkling/möbius (Obviously, this level hasn't been released earlier)
Hootenanny 13: "It's a Long Long Way to Fall" by Proxima (I didn't see this in Michael Preview Cheapo packs, a nice miner level)
Frenzy 13: "Drop the Dead Lemming" by Proxima (I guess I backrouted this one, saved builder and some other skills if I recall correctly)
Pain 15: "Sharing a Climber" by Crane (This level was vastly updated from the version I had played ages ago, now this was a really tricky and beautiful puzzle)
Pain 25: "Catch Your Death" by Clam Spammer (The solution I originally had in ClamSpam01 pack ages ago doesn't work in Lemmini, had to invent something else :--D)
Carnage 19: "Changing of the Guards" by Proxima (Well done möbius for placing this in the Carnage rating, it was surprisingly hard to realize what's going on here, but a big minus for steelifying normal terrain :( (yes I know that Bubble lacks steel... could that be designed in an other way? This is still a really good level imo!))
Armageddon 2: "Lemming Recycling Plant" by Clam Spammer (The solution I originally had in ClamSpam01 pack ages ago has been prevented here)
Armageddon 4: "Land of Linebreaks" by geoo (A great bombers-only puzzle)

Yeah, what annoyed me the most was the misplaced steel in lots of levels, it was ugly to watch when pieces of steel blew up when bombing lemmings, for example. :P So I might take a look at them some time. Also, I don't like the idea about the Lemmini pack being in two separate folders just to get passwords for every level. One of the biggest advantages in Lemmini for me has always been that level selecting list system, where you can choose any level you've already passed, and solving a level always unlocks the next level, it's so elegantly handled like this. If a game crashes and you lose your progress and/or you're stuck in a level and still want to get pass it, there's always cheatcodes just like in Lemmix... you know, type "0xdeadbeef" for a password. :P

Just started playing the Lemmix version.

So far, this is a really great pack -- a nice difficulty curve, and several levels that are easy to pass are interesting to solve for max %.

Wow, this is always so nice to hear! :thumbsup: Like I said earlier, I feel the most uncertain about the first two difficulty ratings, and imo the difficulty curve is more like L1/ONML curve in some places, so it's nice to hear other people's opinions. Plus Proxima is playing the Lemmix version, where it's not at all certain that the levels work as they should, because möbius modified even originally-Lemmix-levels to suit for the Lemmini game.

I glanced very quickly the Lemmix version, I saw for example (I was also aware of this issue already when I tried to fix this level to work in Lemmix) that Armageddon 1: "Vegetation Reign" lacks the exit entirely. This level is obviously created for Lemmini, where the exit works, but in Lemmix I guess the y-coordinate of the exit object is out of bounds (and the exit might not be possible just lower down, I can't remember). There might be other similar levels.

The only level I really didn't like was Snowed In, a precision test that would be just about okay, were it not that the exit blends into the terrain and makes it impossible to see the spot you're aiming for.
Thanks for the opinions! :thumbsup: I heard from another person also that he didn't like this level. "Snowed In" is purely my nomination for this level pack, so my bad, sorry guys. :D I chose this level because that trick isn't used in any other level in this pack of 210 levels (and is rarely used in any custom level even though it's pretty simple).

Remember people to check from the Read Me file levels and their authors, you might find some new level designers and favourites whose levels you haven't played earlier! You can tell the authors then that you appreciate their work in this topic, for example. :) For example, Crane adored "A break in the pillar", which is created by minimac. : )

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2013, 01:03:53 am »
I think "Sharing a Climber?" was actually the first level I ever built in LemEdit.  Lemming Cathodes was also a very early level of mine - I never realised how endearing they are!

I definitely adore "A break in the pillar" just because it's the perfect tease!  Just one builder, please!

Another level I've come to really love in this pack is "Duality" (Armageddon 29) by Yawg, which has an absolutely beautiful sacrifice very cleverly disguised by the target percentage and the tools given.  Note I haven't actually reached this far legitimately (I'm still stuck on "A sea of purest green"), and this is the only Armageddon level I've completed so far.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2013, 02:17:55 am »
I'm nowhere near that far yet -- there are non-functioning exits on Hootenanny 4 and Frenzy 5 and 6, and I can't progress beyond Hootenanny 4 because the set title is too long for CHEATCODES to work. However, I've played up to Frenzy 15 so far and looked through some of the other sets. Yes, still enjoying them -- there are several that I've seen before, but also some lovely levels that are new to me -- so far my favourite is Frenzy 10, "Harder, Faster, Miner, Stronger".

On Frenzy 4 "Crossing the Chasm" I find it a slight demerit that the second builder only needs to place one brick -- would have preferred to shorten the gap and only give one builder. Though that would make the solution easier to see because there would be fewer options.

I feel this may be a backroute on Frenzy 11 -- it's way too easy for the level's position, and saves 100%.

The knife trap on Frenzy 14 doesn't work, allowing an obvious backroute.

Frenzy 13: "Drop the Dead Lemming" by Proxima (I guess I backrouted this one, saved builder and some other skills if I recall correctly)
How did you manage that?

Quote
Carnage 19: "Changing of the Guards" by Proxima (Well done möbius for placing this in the Carnage rating, it was surprisingly hard to realize what's going on here, but a big minus for steelifying normal terrain :( (yes I know that Bubble lacks steel... could that be designed in an other way? This is still a really good level imo!))
Unfortunately, it's necessary to put steel or liquid there to prevent the "Lemmingentry Watson" solution. Glad you like the level!

I notice that in "Vignette", the device to make the lemmings start off going left doesn't work, but if I remember rightly, in Lemmix the level could be un-flipped and should work as originally intended?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2013, 08:42:39 pm »
I remembered that after entering CHEATCODES, you can press 5 to bypass any level, so I've now played the first half of Hootenanny. There are non-functioning exits on Levels 4, 16 and 17, and oddly enough, these are exactly the levels where I think I've found backroutes.

I'm reserving judgement on Hootenanny 4 until I learn the intended solution, but right now I'm pretty annoyed with it. As well as the backroute, I found a very elegant solution that uses all the skills and all parts of the level, so I was sure it was the intended route -- and then I found that hidden traps have been put there specifically to prevent it. On an early level of the second set. Yeah, I'm beginning to share geoo's animosity towards hidden traps after incidents like this.

Martin Z is very likely right -- steel is misplaced to the right on all levels. For example, on "More Wee Creatures" I couldn't bomb the bridge, even though my lemming was well outside the steel area shown on Clam's picture. Unfortunately, this interferes rather badly with (what I think are) the intended solutions to Hootenanny 8 and 10.

On the plus side, I'm discovering some great levels  :)  My favourites of the ones I played today are "Crystal Caves" (fun "adventure" level), "Two-Minute Warning" (elegant solution) and "Kung-Fu Bashing" (visually stunning).

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2013, 09:35:17 pm »
Yeah, I hate hidden traps too.  Besides being highly annoying and unfair, it screams shoddy design to me in that it's very obviously a patch-job, besides being a little 'unrealistic' when you uncover a buried and active bear trap or shredder.

Offline jammer64

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2013, 11:14:20 pm »
How to compile one's own Lemmix executable? Any C/C++/etc sources involved?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2013, 11:50:01 pm »
How to compile one's own Lemmix executable? Any C/C++/etc sources involved?

Nope.  Eric chose Delphi to write Lemmix so that's what you'll need along with source code that he shared out some time ago.  namida is probably the one who has done the most recent work on building custom Lemmix executables, and therefore in best position to help you with that sort of thing.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2013, 11:58:03 pm »
My solutions for some of Proxima's levels recorded in Lemmix player attached.
Also attached the Read me file in case some people don't have it, möbius forgot to add it to the Lemmix download.

Quote from: Proxima on 2013-12-06 14:42:39
Quote
I remembered that after entering CHEATCODES, you can press 5 to bypass any level,
Hahaha I had forgot that also, a good point.

Quote
Quote
I'm reserving judgement on Hootenanny 4 until I learn the intended solution, but right now I'm pretty annoyed with it. As well as the backroute, I found a very elegant solution that uses all the skills and all parts of the level, so I was sure it was the intended route -- and then I found that hidden traps have been put there specifically to prevent it. On an early level of the second set. Yeah, I'm beginning to share geoo's animosity towards hidden traps after incidents like this.
This level is made originally for Lemmini, lemmings should fall facing to the left from the right enrance. Also, that trap shouldn't crush the climber lemming during his climb at the wall at the left (at the right a lemming climbs normally passing the trap).

A tip in cases of these suspicious levels: If you look at the levels/authors list at the end of the read me file, you can probably figure that if a level is made by an author who makes levels mainly for Lemmini, that level is highly probably having something unintended going on there, the levels aren't modified to work in Lemmix even though they would work there. Hopefully no author gets misunderstood or questioned now about their level designing skills because of these compatibility issues.

Now that there's so much interest in the Lemmix version and namida created an awesome Lemmix player for it, I might try to fix all the Lemmini levels so that they will work in the Lemmix version, but that's not going to happen quickly. :I


Proxima's solutions:

Frenzy 11: I solved this level similarly, nothing bizarre going here. Yeah I agree that this is an easy level for its place in the game. minimac as the author knows the intended solution.

Hootenanny 4: Explained above.

Hootenanny 16: The steel are doesn't work, you aren't supposed to be able to bomb that second layer through in the original level. (Yeah, these steelified terrain issues again, now the original level has this issue.)

Hootenanny 17: Wooow this is nice! Gronkling take a look at this solution, it works in the original level, I tested it! Never thought that this level would have more than one way to do it. I'd guess Gronkling will consider this as a backroute?


Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:38:12 pm by Prob Lem »

Offline Gronkling

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2013, 12:14:55 am »
Quote
I'm reserving judgement on Hootenanny 4 until I learn the intended solution, but right now I'm pretty annoyed with it. As well as the backroute, I found a very elegant solution that uses all the skills and all parts of the level, so I was sure it was the intended route -- and then I found that hidden traps have been put there specifically to prevent it. On an early level of the second set. Yeah, I'm beginning to share geoo's animosity towards hidden traps after incidents like this.

This level is made originally for Lemmini, lemmings should fall facing to the left from the right enrance. :P Also, that trap shouldn't crush the climber lemming during his climb at the wall at the left (at the right a lemming climbs normally passing the trap).

Yes that level has completely broke '~' It should be fixable though. [Here's the real solution] It still has hidden traps but they are to fix a different set of backroutes that I can't remember anymore.
Virtually all of my levels were made specifically for lemmini and often focus around mechanics only available there so I have a feeling most of my levels will be broken, escpecially in the bonus section.

Hootenanny 17: Wooow this is nice! :thumbsup: Gronkling take a look at this solution, it works in the original level, I tested it! Never thought that this level would have more than one way to do it. I'd guess Gronkling will consider this as a backroute?

That level was designed to be easy, and that solution is just as good as the real one, so I don't mind it. 'u'
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2013, 12:20:56 am »
the issue with the steel being out of place must be something with converting the levels from ini to lvl. I'll let namida know; this is only in the Lemmix version. I just checked a bunch of levels in Lemmini the steel looks good.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2013, 12:47:59 am »
the issue with the steel being out of place must be something with converting the levels from ini to lvl. I'll let namida know; this is only in the Lemmix version. I just checked a bunch of levels in Lemmini the steel looks good.

I'm not familiar with how Lemmini stores levels, but this sounds like it may be a side effect of how the LVL file format restricts steel areas' positions and sizes to multiples of 4 (plus a few other restrictions I can think of)?  If that's the case I'd actually say all Lemmini levels with steel will have some risk of something getting slightly out of place.  Sizes and positioning of object trigger areas may also end up slightly different between the original Lemmini level and the conversion to LVL.

Bottom line:  may be good to compile the list of levels that originated on Lemmini, and encourage people to focus on playing them with Lemmix to help test which ones are working and which aren't.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2013, 01:05:51 am »
Bottom line:  may be good to compile the list of levels that originated on Lemmini, and encourage people to focus on playing them with Lemmix to help test which ones are working and which aren't.
Well that's an easy task to put here on display also.

Every level of all the following authors originate on Lemmini: Dodochacalo, Gronkling, Lacktardo, LoftyD, Mikau Schekzen, Pieuw
Every level of all the other authors originate on/are remade for Lemmix.
Find out from the read me file the levels and their authors! :)


Hootenanny 17: Wooow this is nice! :thumbsup: Gronkling take a look at this solution, it works in the original level, I tested it! Never thought that this level would have more than one way to do it. I'd guess Gronkling will consider this as a backroute?

That level was designed to be easy, and that solution is just as good as the real one, so I don't mind it. 'u'
Yeah, I liked that solution too, it's not considerably easier than the actual solution, it just has more backroute-feeling in it. :P A clever lemming turnaround method there! Also, I probably got overexcited a bit because I always saw only the intended solution when I played this level, and I thought that I had looked for alternative solutions to some extent without finding any, and now I realise how yet somehow obvious that Proxima's solution is. :P

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2013, 03:47:54 am »
Left-facing entrances should be a simple enough modification. I'll look into it when I get back home.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2013, 11:37:51 pm »
Got through the rest of Hootenanny. I think I found the intended solution to 17 now.

A strange solution to 18 that does use all the skills; wonder whether this was intended. Possible backroutes on 19 and 30; I also saved 100% on 24. Because of the steel misplacement, my solution to 19 goes through the steel, but the same solution should work if the steel were fixed, you'd just have to position the digger differently. I also think I may have backrouted 30, since I saved one builder.

I didn't pass 21 (Build it up with iron and steel). I can only see one possible route, but it narrowly runs out of time, even when sped up by avoiding climbing the far left pillar.

20 and 29 have non-functioning exits, the traps on 27 don't work, and 26 has a fake steel piece (not the usual steel misplacement -- you can dig right through the fourth steel piece in a line of five right next to each other).

Great levels!  :thumbsup:

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2013, 11:53:04 pm »
That'll be one of my levels!  This level was originally made in LemEdit and designed for CustLemm, so it should be doable in Lemmix.

Quote from: Spoiler
You have to get two lemmings to build towards each other across the expanse in such a way that the lemming coming from the right turns around (by hitting the other builder's bridge) and heads straight for the exit.  You are also correct that you have to stop the climber from climbing the left pillar.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2013, 12:10:15 am »
Oh, I was thinking of something slightly different:
Quote
Build from both sides starting at almost exactly the same time, and both builders will step onto each other's bridges. To finish in time, I tried building against the far left pillar, which, as I said, narrowly fails. But I think, if the steel were fixed, it should be possible to build two steps on the steel, then mine to turn round, and that should have a chance of making it. It's impossible to test this due to the steel misplacement.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2013, 12:34:41 am »
Proxima's solutions:

Hootenanny 17: Inside the Pyramid and 18: Kung-Fu Bashing - Intendedly solved as far as I know.
Hootenanny 19: Bat Country - I solved this level similarly (= the worker lemming goes around the level and bashes the oww), I'm not sure about the author's intended solution.
Hootenanny 30: Think Again - This feels a backroute, and now I managed to do that in the original version of the level, too. My original solution uses all the skills.

I had troubles for a while with "Build it up with iron and steel" also, this level could be later in the game in my opinion.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2013, 12:54:08 am »
100% solution to Hootenanny 24, and possible backroute on Frenzy 16

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2013, 01:23:24 am »
Hootenanny 24: EMERGENCY ! - An easy level with leeway and multiple solutions, I don't know the intended one.
Frenzy 16: Faithful Friends - Crane's level, he can judge. :)

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2013, 01:28:31 am »
Got through the rest of Hootenanny. I think I found the intended solution to 17 now.

A strange solution to 18 that does use all the skills; wonder whether this was intended. Possible backroutes on 19 and 30; I also saved 100% on 24. Because of the steel misplacement, my solution to 19 goes through the steel, but the same solution should work if the steel were fixed, you'd just have to position the digger differently. I also think I may have backrouted 30, since I saved one builder.

I didn't pass 21 (Build it up with iron and steel). I can only see one possible route, but it narrowly runs out of time, even when sped up by avoiding climbing the far left pillar.

20 and 29 have non-functioning exits, the traps on 27 don't work, and 26 has a fake steel piece (not the usual steel misplacement -- you can dig right through the fourth steel piece in a line of five right next to each other).

Great levels!  :thumbsup:

I fixed all the levels except for Brick City. I can't find any fake steel piece in 226, (Barfmaster) but I fixed the real steel and traps.
I only found 1 trap out of place on 54321 Bop! (227) I fixed it. This level may be easier than it originally was in Lemmix because of blocker problems in Lemmini I changed something minor (don't remember what)
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2013, 01:35:22 am »
Heh, I'm having problems opening the correct level because it says it can't find graphic set 6 (I'm opening level021.dat which contains the correct level).  Can anyone give me some tips so it recognises the Oh No! More Lemmings graphics sets?

Oh, and I've found that "Sharing a Climber?" is impossible to complete on the Lemmix version due to the aforementioned steel problems.

ADDITIONAL: Can someone check "The Final Countdown" (Picnic 30) too? I'm having problems with the steel areas and the splat distance (a digger in the right place survives in CustLemm and Lemmini, but splats in Lemmix).

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2013, 09:55:16 am »
Right-click on the level select window and select Custom Lemmings mode.

My solution to "The Final Countdown" doesn't involve anyone going down to the bottom layer, so the issue doesn't arise.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2013, 09:56:28 am »
As Proxima said - Custom Lemmings mode.

Though may I ask why you're using the Lemmix editor when there's a dedicated Lemmix player for this? Or are you testing the fixed levels? (Didn't read the whole topic =P )
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2013, 12:49:21 pm »
Sorry, I wasn't aware of the Lemmix player - I guess I need to look around more closely.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2013, 12:55:52 pm »
Okay, did some reading up!  Impressive backroute there Proxima, and if you can complete The Final Countdown without going to the lower level, that's another backroute.  Oh boy!

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2013, 01:28:01 am »
Some more Frenzy solutions. Levels other than these were not less interesting, I was just more certain that my solution was the only way to do them  :P  (Level 24 also looks like the only solution, but I'm curious about this one because I saved 100% and it only requires 98%.) Level 19 has another non-functional exit.

Some excellent levels in this batch -- I was particularly impressed by 19 and 22 (both look impossible until you see the trick) and 24 (absolutely stunning visuals).

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2013, 03:30:51 am »
18; Patience.. has multiple solutions
22 Windmill has multiple solutions
23 Boss on Parade; has two solutions but they are more or less the same. I'll try to look at this unless Akseli gets to it first.
24 Aperture Science has multiple solutions. The original with 98% requires the bomber and some strict timing.

Frenzy is my personal favorite rating. (though it is very close)

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

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-the Dude


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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2013, 01:07:05 pm »
All of Proxima's solutions are valid. 18 and 22 indeed have multiple solutions, 23 was solved intendedly, and I solved 24 similarly, I don't know the intended solution for this level (have you möbius asked Ellischant about that or from where do you know it? :P).

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2013, 11:50:29 pm »
Completed Frenzy  8) :thumbsup:  That was very satisfying -- I can see why it's your favourite. Great puzzles, no really unfair ones, and some well-hidden tricks that gave a great "aha!" feeling. I particularly liked 27 (very clever solution) and 29 (looks completely impossible for a long time).

Solutions to 25, 26, 27, 28 attached. My solutions to 29 and 30 felt clearly intended, though I saved one extra on 29.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2013, 12:38:38 am »
The Pain levels are just beautiful -- every level (so far) is great to look at and has a creative and ingenious solution -- but I'm going to have to stop here for now, as Level 7 is living up to the set's title  :P

Levels 2 and 5 have non-working exits. Level 3 is the only one so far when I think I may have a backroute  :P

And here's the intended solution to Level 8 (Behind Bars). Thanks again for including my levels -- now that I've seen what the others are like, this is a real honour!

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2013, 01:09:22 am »
Wow, I'm so glad to hear how much you like the levels! :thumbsup: And even though that there's these nuisances like messy exit placements, steels and all..

Proxima's solutions:
Frenzy 25: Rattlesnake - I tested your solution in Lemmini and it works... :XD: This is a remarkable backroute. This is another level that I never solved in any other than the intended way (even though I tried), and now I'm baffled to see it backrouted. I know that it's of course a bit harder to search for other solutions when you already know the intended one... :P But yeah, the steel doesn't work in this Lemmix version of Rattlesnake, and it's impossible to be solved intendedly because of that, so awesome work for finding this solution!
Frenzy 26: Pyramid Puzzle - My solution was similar. :)
Frenzy 27: Nemesis - Yes, great work, Crane knows the precise intended solution as the author. :P
Frenzy 28: RABBIX - This feels backroutish, I actually don't know how this is supposed to be solved, because möbius apparently mixed Clam Spammer's both RABBIX levels (RABBIX from ClamSpam03 and another RABBIX from ClamSpam06_4lvls) in this one. :P

Pain 3: Almost Easy - My solution was similar, I think this is supposed to be solved like this.
Pain 8: Behind Bars - Your intended solution looks way more complicated than my solution. :XD: Nice!

My favourite ratings in this pack are probably both Pain and Carnage, I like very much almost every single level in these ratings!

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2013, 02:26:13 pm »
Frenzy 27 is actually a backroute, but because of its beauty, and the fact you have to make sure it's the Climber that does the final building (otherwise he climbs the barricade on the far right and dies), I'll give it to you and let it stay!  It's actually impossible to do it this way in Lemmini because the fire traps are less forgiving, but I do love your solution.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2013, 04:53:30 pm »
Halfway through Pain now. Level 7 was unbelievably awesome -- so many plausible ideas, and then everything just fell into place! I see that weirdybeardy, the author, was a forum member, so I'm going to remake this one for the Lix community set  :thumbsup:

9 is very similar to Clam's Lix level "Square Dancing", though I found it a bit harder for some reason, especially releasing the crowd with the given skills. 10 seems straightforward and I saved three builders. On 12, the steel misplacement interfered with my solution (the digger would continue straight down) but fortunately I had a spare miner. 13 again has that nice "impossible" feel, but I found a simple solution saving some skills.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2013, 05:52:56 pm »
Pain 9: 'Lem Squared', 10: 'That Freezing Feeling', 12: 'Unidentified Lemming Object' and 13: 'Lempire state building' are all that kind of levels that they don't have only one exact solution, and I solved all of them more or less similarly than Proxima. Lem Squared is one of these ClamSpam05 levels that are almost all remade for Lix as far as I'm know. :P

I'm going to remake this one for the Lix community set  :thumbsup:

There's still lots of room for new Lix community levels? : ) I guess that möbius thought of remaking many levels for that pack still in the future, too.

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2013, 06:33:35 pm »
Frenzy 28: RABBIX - This feels backroutish, I actually don't know how this is supposed to be solved, because möbius apparently mixed Clam Spammer's both RABBIX levels (RABBIX from ClamSpam03 and another RABBIX from ClamSpam06_4lvls) in this one. :P

I can't watch replays and don't have the time to figure out how to. So could somebody explain the solution to me?

intended solution:
Quote
-build to the rabbit (2builders)
-1 climbs up the back of the rabbit and bashes through the body (let nobody else enter)
-he should land safely on the grass on the other side just after the traps and turn around on a small piece of grass then build back to the rabbit over the traps
-bash to free the crowd.
-intended solution doesn't involve using the wooden "decoration"

this was RABBIX I's solution.  RABBIX 2 was very different and had a major backroute but I liked the decoration so Clam let me combine them.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2013, 07:09:59 pm »
I can't watch replays and don't have the time to figure out how to. So could somebody explain the solution to me?

Quote
* Build to the rabbit (2 builders)
* Use the interrupted basher step to get the lemmings above the height of the rabbit's jaw
* Bash through
* The leading lemming builds against the tall grass stem, letting the rest over
* He then builds against a grass stem to stop himself walking into the traps

Quote
There's still lots of room for new Lix community levels?

I really don't know how much room there is, but it can't do any harm to remake any further levels we would like to see make it in   8)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2013, 07:09:25 pm »
möbius mentioned "Take It Like a Lemming" (Pain 24) as another candidate for a Lix remake, so I skipped ahead to look at this level. It looks very interesting -- it's always great to see a challenging level with so few skills. Unfortunately, there is a backroute. I can't help wondering if it was intentional that the lattice and blue balls in the middle of the level are raised 1 pixel above the platform below?

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2013, 09:39:07 pm »
möbius mentioned "Take It Like a Lemming" (Pain 24) as another candidate for a Lix remake, so I skipped ahead to look at this level. It looks very interesting -- it's always great to see a challenging level with so few skills. Unfortunately, there is a backroute. I can't help wondering if it was intentional that the lattice and blue balls in the middle of the level are raised 1 pixel above the platform below?

i don't have an answer about the lattice. But if your solution doesn't directly involve the lattice then it is similar to ours. (Akseli's that is. I never found one, well I did but it involved going past the previously non-working trap. Yes, I had to add the little tip part that weirdybeardy apparently forgot. Idk if that was intentional or not)
In any case I always had a feeling this had more solutions or backroutes.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2014, 08:26:19 pm »
Here's another batch of Pain solutions  8)

It feels great to have solved 16 at last -- I've seen this level previously, as 30 of Martin Zurlinden's levels have been imported (not remade) in Lix. The solution, although fairly simple when you find it, is extremely well-hidden, so I'm amazed this wasn't considered a Carnage level.

I saved 100% on 18, didn't need all the skills on 19, and my solution to 20 feels backroutish (though I can't see any other way to do it).

Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2014, 10:01:55 pm »
Pain 16: The Pool - Yes, though you don't need that strict crowd control if you assign the hero lemming a blocker at the end of the bridge. I found Martin Zurlinden's Deep Deep Down (Pain 11) also really hard at first when I played that level, it seems impossible at first but when you know the solution, it's fairly simple.
Pain 18: Ancient Clockwork - That isn't quite possible in the original environment of this level in Lemmini, so you managed to take a little shortcut understandably, but that solution is on the right track.
Pain 19: Level Under Construction - All the intended solutions for Martin Zurlinden's levels are written in his document that comes with his pack, so I can say that this is a backroute, obviously due to that trick you used. :P
Pain 20: The Underground Secret - Yea this is correctly solved as far as I can tell. :P

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2014, 10:58:38 pm »
Since you mentioned it, here's my solution to Pain 11  8)  A very nice level, though I don't think I was stumped by it for very long.

21 and 23 have non-working exits. 21 is extremely clever -- I came up with four 94% solutions before finding the True Path. 22 is another classic "impossible" level. 23 I knew from the Lix version -- this is a nice clean adaptation. 24 was discussed above, and 25 is another very cunning one with a well-concealed solution  :thumbsup:

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2014, 11:41:47 pm »
For a lot of levels, the difficulty depends on the player.  I saw the solution to "The Pool" relatively quickly, while "The Underground Secret" took me forever and I kinda needed a tip!  I've still yet to solve "A sea of purest green"!

Similarly, I saw the solution to "Duality" almost straight away, and I consider it an absolutely beautiful solution, although since it's Armageddon 29 I presume it's not the same story for others.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2014, 11:43:34 pm »
Pain 11: Deep Deep Down - Correct!
Pain 21: Long Distance - I was baffled with this also back then, and your solution is neat, I haven't seen that before. Here's the author's solution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP35vxi9uG4
Pain 22: NO MAS! - Yeeees. :P
Pain 25: Catch Your Death! - I remember that I also built straight to the exit, I don't know the intended solution for this Clam's level, but I remember playing the Lix remake from Clam's Lix level set, where this level was simplified.

Crane: I'd like to see your solution for Duality. :) And yes, "A sea of purest green" is not an easy level.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2014, 12:08:45 am »
from now on, (to anybody) if you have a level which you feel is greatly out of place, difficulty wise, in the levelset and doesn't work as a "breather" level please post about it. And I'll consider moving levels around in the next update. Is multiple people think one particular level needs changing it; it's probably a good idea to change it.
Please, mention if you'd like to "second" some one else's suggestion  or disagree

the last rating, was I think, the toughest to order difficulty-wise.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2014, 12:59:21 am »
Here is my (Lemmini) solution to Duality.  Personally I don't think this is Armageddon-difficulty, or at least this late on, but then again that was just due to how quickly I solved it.

EXTRA: I also have a solution to "Feel the Pressure".  I'm posting this because I heard it mentioned somewhere that it can't be completed conventionally in Lemmini, only in Lemmix.  My solution leaves the Climber, Floater and Builder unused.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2014, 02:05:09 am »
I'd like to request a couple of music changes for my levels:

It's a long long way to fall -- tim8 (seems to be a popular choice, so if you feel you've used it enough already, tim10 is my second choice)
Rhapsody in Blue -- p3

For my other levels, I think you've made great choices -- I'm especially honoured that one of my levels (Vignette) was chosen to have p7.

Also, I take back what I said about The Pool being out of place. It is hard, but very soon afterwards, the levels starting getting even harder  :P

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2014, 02:35:39 am »
Thank you Proxima.  I try to avoid repeating tunes too close together, but there were a couple of places where I broke those rules.  p7 I think only appears three times actually.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2014, 12:16:35 am »
Reached the end of Pain, though with mixed success on the last few.

26: Nice clean solution, though it's pretty hard to find, so I think the level was well placed.
27: Exit doesn't work, and is it meant to be up in the air? I have a solution that works if it's on the ground....
28: Seen this before in Lix.
29: So far, I only have a solution that fails because of time. I don't know whether this would work in the Lemmini version?
30: Naaaaasty, though once I buckled down to it, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Great choice for the final level of the set.

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2014, 03:13:16 am »
Reached the end of Pain, though with mixed success on the last few.

26: Nice clean solution, though it's pretty hard to find, so I think the level was well placed.
27: Exit doesn't work, and is it meant to be up in the air? I have a solution that works if it's on the ground....
28: Seen this before in Lix.
29: So far, I only have a solution that fails because of time. I don't know whether this would work in the Lemmini version?
30: Naaaaasty, though once I buckled down to it, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Great choice for the final level of the set.

26: this one actually has more than 1 solution. I found what could possibly be a backroute and it occurs to me know I never told geoo about it :XD: but it wasn't real bad and still hard to find.

27: lol, no the exit shouldn't be up in the air. I'm confused because when I open the level in cust-Lem the exit doesn't hover and it even works (the trigger area is in an acceptable place)

28: one of my favorites for being so unique.

29: I'd guess you're doing it wrong. The solution is tight on time but time is stricter in Lemmini so you should have a little more time in DOS. This may have alternate solutions or backroutes.

30: Why exactly is it nasty? I forget what you said in chat. Also; I agree if you know the trick this can seem daunting but I think it's one of the simplest/most forgiving of this style (and one of the first, being created by MZurliden in 1999! (if memory serves)) [alright I know I keep repeating this...]
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2014, 10:20:05 am »
Pain 26: About to Break - I solved this level similarly than Proxima.
Pain 27: Balancing Act - The exit object is out of the "ceiling" boundary (has a negative y-coordinate like Armageddon 1, for example), it disappears in Lemmix, but what does it work in CustLemm?? This level uses a trick that doesn't work in Lemmix, but works in Lemmini and Lix, so the intended solution should be impossible in Lemmix player. I'd like to see your solution for this, Proxima. :0
Pain 29: Four Lemmings And A Funeral - My solution has over 10 spare seconds. Proxima's solution is even more impossible in Lemmini than in Lemmix, time limits in Lemmini seem to be more strict in general.
Pain 30: Mastermined - This certain level is created in 2002 (http://www.abc64.de/lemmings/), but to be honest I don't know any older level packs than this one. This is the level that taught me this trick, and I remember literally banging my head to a table when I realized what's going on here. Last time when I played this level I had major troubles, I think this is harder in Lemmini than in Lemmix.

Crane:
Armageddon 18: Feel the Pressure - I didn't get your replay to work, lemmings die when they fall to the lower platform. This level has the wrong version in the initial Lemmini version release, that I couldn't solve in any way.
Armageddon 29: Duality - Awesome solution, a lot cleaner than mine, and definitely valid, works in the original Lemmix version too.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2014, 01:48:41 pm »
Strange that Armageddon 18 doesn't work - hmmm... unless it was fixed in a later release.  I'm glad you like Armageddon 29's solution.  I'm curious to see yours too.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2014, 12:22:43 am »
I just realised that my solution to Pain 27 doesn't work anyway because of the time limit  :'(  but here it is. Still no luck on 29.

As for 30, getting down was the easy part; the fiddly part is releasing the blockers afterwards (and yes, I say this even though I released them all and saved 100% when this wasn't required). Bashing on a miner's slope is tricky because they often stop after one stroke. (This part is much easier in Lix... though sadly the level is impossible in Lix because the lemmings can't walk under the bottom flamethrower.)

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2014, 07:50:13 pm »
Okay, here's the solution to Pain 29. Nice. Another one that's simple but hard to spot -- I love the idea that levels like this form the end of one rating, while the start of the next rating moves up a notch in terms of conceptual complexity.

That said, I'm not very happy with the start of Carnage. Level 1 is visually stunning, but on the leftmost large wall, it seems to be impossible to bash between the one-way portion and the steel, where it looks like it should be possible. Here's a replay that goes only up to that point so you can see what I mean. (This problem can be avoided by going over the wall and direct-dropping into the exit, but you know how I feel about glitch solutions.)

Level 2 is mostly straightforward with a nice touch of hidden complexity in timing the last bridge. I've left the replay out due to the 4-per-post limit; let me know if that sounds like it's not the intended solution.

Is this intended for Level 3? Seems a bit too simple....

On Level 4, I'm not sure whether the exit was meant to be just off the ground, but it's solvable anyway. I'm not very happy that the level requires the steel-bashing glitch -- though at least, considering the skill availability, even if you didn't know about this glitch it's pretty obvious that there's no other way to get them out of the cells.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2014, 09:49:05 pm »
Crane:
You could try to save a replay for Armageddon 18 via "Load level" with the second version of the pack, if you like to. :b I attached this post my solution for Duality, your solution is much more elegant! Load Duality via "Load level", not "Select level", so my replay will work as it should.

Proxima:
Pain 27: Balancing Act - Nice, if you place one skill just a little bit earlier, then there's a working solution for the original level in Lemmini, and that's imo a new one, Gronkling you should probably look this one out. :P It won't work in Lemmix though, because climbers climb through low ceilings unlike in Lemmini.
Pain 29: Four Lemmings And A Funeral - Now this is exactly the same solution than I had.
Carnage 1: Dungeons & Lemmings - Steel areas are messed up. : ( This level should be possible still via bashing the oww from left to the right, so direct drop or such isn't needed.
Carnage 2: Wing It - Sounds just like the solution I found. :P Nothing bizarre here.
Carnage 3: the last mohilem - Another easy level (or at least it feels like it after the late Pain rating), but I didn't know about that solution, that is a nice one, too. :) My solution:
Quote
The builder is assigned with a well-timed bomber, and it blows a hole to the wall so high, that the climber lemming can mine down to the exit safely.
Carnage 4: Please Save Us! - Steel areas are messed up again, I tested this one with the original level file, and you should be able to bash only so that there remains one pixel wide floor beneath the cells, not that the floor breaks. :I

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2014, 07:58:07 am »
If you're wanting to use a fixed version of a level, you don't need to use the Lemmix editor. Just turn on LookForLVLFiles in the INI then place the level file in the folder named to match. I forget which name corresponds to which number in RotL, but if we were using the original game as an example, to replace Mayhem 20 you'd name it 0420.lvl

That being said, I'm working on a much-improved version of Lemmix (for general existance - my aims with this are a bit different to EricLang's; his seems to be extending the formats and games supported by Lemmix, whereas mine is on keeping as close as possible to the traditional Lemmings experience but without the DOS limitations and glitches), which I'll then build a more finalised version of this pack based on. So far I've got pixel-perfect trigger areas and object/steel positions, and I'm part-way through making indestructible steel (so far I've done the groundwork and fixed bombers, still have to do the other destructive skills), I've also fixed the sliding glitch.
I'm basing this updated player off the LPII code, simply because I saw no reason not to (it'll allow the use of LPII gimmicks with the released player that way - if no one ever uses them, oh well, no harm in them being there, though I'm sure we'll at least see a few interesting Karoshi gimmick levels). Though I can easily revert the bombers to the traditional ones, and apart from that (and a few other glitch fixes, which are just a start to what the whole aim is here), all the new features in LPII are extras that if someone doesn't want to use, they can simply not use.
And there's no intention at this stage to use this improved Lemmix as a base for an LPIII, though I'm not ruling out the possibility of it ever happening. Though I might make a custom engine if I decide to make a new Lemmings Plus...

Here's a shot of a slightly modified LPII level, with this indestructible steel in effect; the first one also shows pixel-perfect placement of objects and steel areas. It shows it for bombers, miners and diggers - still got to iron out some glitches with the bashers.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Martin Z

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2014, 10:03:20 pm »
I found that Pain 30 ("Mastermined") seems impossible in the Lemmix version due to the misplaced steel areas. I tried the original level file and it worked perfectly. So I guess it would be a good idea for future Lemmix versions to simply use my original level files (in general). Thanks btw for including so many of my levels!

Another thing I noticed is that some Lemmings will likely fall to death in Pain 16 ("The Pool") when you build to the uppermost platform on the left side of the pool. This also occurs with the original level file and it's not intended but rather annoying. Could it be that in Lemmix, the maximum survivable falling height is a few pixels smaller than in the original games?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2014, 11:25:26 pm »
Another thing I noticed is that some Lemmings will likely fall to death in Pain 16 ("The Pool") when you build to the uppermost platform on the left side of the pool. This also occurs with the original level file and it's not intended but rather annoying. Could it be that in Lemmix, the maximum survivable falling height is a few pixels smaller than in the original games?

Actually it is Customized Lemmings ("CustLemm") that have the higher maximum fall distance (by 3 pixels) than the original games.  The higher distance is "wrong" in the sense that some original levels like "We All Fall Down" or the initial fall in "Steel Works" are adversedly affected by turning fatal falls safe.  It is unfortunate that a version of DOS Lemmings exists with a different fall distance and Customized Lemmings just happened to have been based on that version, as it means levels created in the LemEdit/CustLemm era may inadvertently rely on the "wrong" fall distance.

Lemmix's game engine has support for CustLemm game mechanics including the higher fall distance, but I don't think the LemmixPlayer used for Revenge of the Lemmings is currently configured to use that mechanics.

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2014, 03:31:40 am »
No, the beta player released here was, like the LPII one, based off OhNo mechanics.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2014, 11:06:09 am »
The higher fall distance might explain why The Final Countdown doesn't work the way it is intended to in the Lemmix version... the level was designed in CustLemm.  Curiously, it works fine in Lemmini.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2014, 01:29:23 am »
Martin Z: Mastermined is possible (and even 100%able) in the Lemmix version; see my replay further up this page!

Here's some more Carnage  8)

1: A "clean" solution (no direct drop and avoided the one-way-wall problem I mentioned previously). I bashed against the misplaced steel to turn one lemming, but this could be done against the correctly placed steel and the same solution would work.
4: We talked about this on IRC and I realised that there is a solution that doesn't depend on being able to bash so that the floor breaks. That said, the visible steel is three pixels below the floor, so the solution still depends on glitchy behaviour.
5: I solved this level in Lix, but it's not possible in Lemmix as the misplaced steel prevents working on the pillar on the left side of the exit platform.
6: Strange level but maybe intended solution?
7: Seen this in Lix but never solved it until now  :P  I think this pack, with its excellent difficulty curve, is helping to improve my skills... I was stuck on The Pool for a long time and that was almost a whole rating ago. Now I'm making decent progress on much harder levels.
8: Haven't solved yet (in the modified version with no blocker). Exit doesn't work.
9: Saw this in the contest, also didn't solve it until now  :)  Replay doesn't work due to misplaced steel, but the solution should work. This is a really, really, really gorgeous level! I must remake it in Lix....
10: Fairly straightforward, doesn't really feel like a Carnage level.

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2014, 05:24:10 pm »
I'm glad you like Prize Catch's appearance so much.  You can sort of tell which of my levels are old and which are new, as my more recent designs I try to make as beautiful as possible, whereas the old ones were more spartan and functional.  Your solution is actually a backroute that has already been patched in the latest version (the first release accidentally used an old version of Prize Catch)... the latest version has steel plates all along the top under the trapdoor, so it's impossible to dig out the blocker.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2014, 07:57:18 pm »
I wasn't referring to the appearance, though that is gorgeous as well. But that's disappointing; I'll have to keep looking for the real solution   :-[

10: Replay attached since I omitted it last time.
11: Hidden traps inside the terrain? That's low.
12: Requires very tight placement, but after several 99% attempts I finally got 100%.
13: A pure "difficulty of execution" level, guess you don't need to see a replay  :P
14: Excellent puzzle.
15: I like this level, but it's not difficult. There have been a couple of levels before that have felt a little out of place (like Carnage 10), but I really wouldn't ask you to move them around, because some other level would have to be moved up, and when the difficulty curve is so well-adjusted, it's best not to fiddle with it. But this really does require adjustment; it's a Hootenanny level at the most.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2014, 09:03:28 pm »
Today seems to be a good day for backroutes  8)  I found one on 8, which I shared with möbius on IRC. Attached are backroutes on 16 and 17, and another solution to 17 that might be intended. Also, solution to 20.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2014, 11:18:51 pm »
Replay for 18.

21 doesn't work in Lemmix because of the mining OWW bug, 22 and 25 don't work because of the misplaced steel. I've previously solved 24 in Lix and 27 and 28 in Cheapo. So, just a few levels to go for this rating!

Offline Martin Z

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2014, 10:24:22 pm »
That being said, I'm working on a much-improved version of Lemmix (for general existance - my aims with this are a bit different to EricLang's; his seems to be extending the formats and games supported by Lemmix, whereas mine is on keeping as close as possible to the traditional Lemmings experience but without the DOS limitations and glitches), which I'll then build a more finalised version of this pack based on.

Looking forward to that!

Maybe you could change another thing: It always annoys me to calculate the exact number of lemmings to be saved (or rather the number of lemmings that may die). My boys (aged 3 and 5) don't get the percentage thing anyway. I suggest something like "Number of Lemmings 80, 78 to be saved" in the level title screen and a to-be-saved-countdown ("78" to "0") in the level itself. The countdown might even turn form green to red when there's not enough lemmings alive anymore to go to zero. I'd really love to see that!

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #109 on: January 31, 2014, 03:53:48 am »
That being said, I'm working on a much-improved version of Lemmix (for general existance - my aims with this are a bit different to EricLang's; his seems to be extending the formats and games supported by Lemmix, whereas mine is on keeping as close as possible to the traditional Lemmings experience but without the DOS limitations and glitches), which I'll then build a more finalised version of this pack based on.

Looking forward to that!

Maybe you could change another thing: It always annoys me to calculate the exact number of lemmings to be saved (or rather the number of lemmings that may die). My boys (aged 3 and 5) don't get the percentage thing anyway. I suggest something like "Number of Lemmings 80, 78 to be saved" in the level title screen and a to-be-saved-countdown ("78" to "0") in the level itself. The countdown might even turn form green to red when there's not enough lemmings alive anymore to go to zero. I'd really love to see that!

an excellent suggestion!! I forgot to mention this in my many places where I mentioned things like this. percentages are dumb in the first place, why add unnecessary steps to the game?
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline Fleech

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2014, 01:53:29 pm »
Hey guys long time no see. I think it's been a few years since I last visited.

I remember this kind of project being discussed when I was here originally. It's great to see that one finally got made. Have I missed out on any others?

It's a nice suprise to see that one of my levels (Four Lemmings and a Funeral) made it in. Thanks to whoever made that happen.  :)

I doubt I'll be hanging around much but I thought I'd stop by and say hi. Now to start playing. :D

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2014, 04:10:06 pm »
I remember this kind of project being discussed when I was here originally. It's great to see that one finally got made. Have I missed out on any others?

Not for Lemmix. There is, however, a similar "community set" project in the works for Lix (and nearly finished, with 280 levels assembled).

Quote
It's a nice suprise to see that one of my levels (Four Lemmings and a Funeral) made it in.

Deservedly  8)

Offline Pieuw

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #112 on: August 08, 2014, 09:37:42 am »
Hi there.

As I was passing by, I decided to post in this topic since I'm currently playing this pack. I'm in the Carnage rating, and levels are getting awesome :thumbsup: I made a feedback document that I complete as I progress. I use a color rating system, not to drag the levels I didn't like down, but for "statistics". And so I can easily find and remember which levels I liked/loved (there are plenty :D). I also indicate how much Lemmings I saved: it's blue when I saved more than needed and green when I saved 100% while the requirement was less than that. If you notice a level you made with an higher % saved than required, I can send a replay to fix a potential backroute. But I'm playing a bit late so fixes may already have been made!

I'm enjoying this pack a lot! I'm now stuck on a builderless dirt level which title I can't seem to remember (it taunts the player about not having builders). I guess it's only the beginning of my hellish journey through the hardcore ratings :)

Have a nice day my straight ahead wandering friends!

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2014, 12:52:01 am »
Hi Pieuw,

sorry for such a late reply  :P  but last time I looked at your spreadsheet you hadn't reached "Rhapsody in Blue" yet, so I only just noticed that you have now solved it and with what sounds like an unintended solution. Could you message me the details? (I don't have Lemmini so I'm afraid you'd have to describe it in words.) I'm particularly anxious to fix any unintended solutions in the Lix version, which is slightly different, so your solution may not work there anyway, but I have to ask just to make sure.

Glad you liked the level  :thumbsup:

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2014, 02:42:50 pm »
Hi! This is my first post here and I wanna say thank you to all the grat creators! I finished (playing on Lemmini) Dovelems, Pimolems and the Revenge is almost completed (just a few Bonus lvls are missing). Normally I don't like to ask for help or watch the vids before I solve them (just after so I can see if I backrouted them), cause I wanna solve it myself and except a few Bonus levels ("The Giant Leap" was the most broken thing I ever saw and I would never thought of THAT) I could solve them all, but now I am horribly stuck at Bonus 26 "Derangement of Science" and I don't get the probably cheesy trick behind this level  >:(. So I ask you to help me out of my misery and give me some hints or a replay ;P!

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2014, 02:49:42 pm »
Hi! This is my first post here and I wanna say thank you to all the grat creators! I finished (playing on Lemmini) Dovelems, Pimolems and the Revenge is almost completed (just a few Bonus lvls are missing). Normally I don't like to ask for help or watch the vids before I solve them (just after so I can see if I backrouted them), cause I wanna solve it myself and except a few Bonus levels ("The Giant Leap" was the most broken thing I ever saw and I would never thought of THAT) I could solve them all, but now I am horribly stuck at Bonus 26 "Derangement of Science" and I don't get the probably cheesy trick behind this level  >:(. So I ask you to help me out of my misery and give me some hints or a replay ;P!

Quote
There is terrain hidden under the entrance so you can walk on it.

Hope this helps and thanks for the comments! And good job on beating so many levels! The last rating is particularly difficult  :thumbsup:
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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-the Dude


Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2014, 02:55:08 pm »
Thank you very much! :thumbsup: I would NEVER have thought of that! >:(

Offline Simon

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2014, 03:47:11 pm »
Derangement of Science is one of the most unfairly designed levels, for hiding terrain.

The Lemmings file format (therefore probably also Lemmini) allows to draw each interactive object either in front or behind terrain, as desired by the level author. This may have its merits, it allows some more beautiful eye candy with water, but it also allows such problematic design as in the level.

I will even go further and call hiding exits/traps behind terrain unfair design, which some others here consider acceptable.

Edit: From IRC:
Akseli ponders whether this post should be in spoiler tags.
[17:27] <SimonN> well, if there is terrain hidden, it must be [where it is in Derangement, see spoiler tag in posts above]
[17:27] <SimonN> I recall the level to be interesting even if you know that
[17:28] <Akseli> yeah it is
[17:28] <SimonN> hmm, I will leave the comment then, it makes the level experience better
[...]
[17:38] <Akseli> anyhow whatever the issue is I'm not a fan of it when people say stuff something like their opinion is the only one that's applicable :q

-- Simon

Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #118 on: October 20, 2014, 04:37:10 pm »
The Lemmings file format (therefore probably also Lemmini) allows...

For reference, Lemmini and its format are capable of doing everything that DOS Lemmings can do (and a bit more).
SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix also have a fair degree of overlap, though not 100% (for example, NeoLemmix doesn't support fake or invisible terrain, while SuperLemmini doesn't support gimmicks or new skills).
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #119 on: October 20, 2014, 08:04:55 pm »
Thank you very much! :thumbsup: I would NEVER have thought of that! >:(

the very last level is even more ridiculous so just in case I'll give you a hint ahead of time:

Quote
You need to get a climber stuck in terrain and he needs to walk along the top of the level almost above where you can see (like Mario running along above level 2 if you know that)
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2014, 09:24:56 pm »
I was thinking about the last one for an hour, then I saw the post: "even more ridicoulos".  Even with this hint, getting that trick done was not the easiest thing!
 Now I got them finally all done and again thanks for this amazing pack!
 Maybe sometime I try to upload my solutions on youtube, when I have the time to get myself into a recording software.
 Hope to see more in the future and there is still Mobilems to beat (Heinious and bonus to go), but I think there is a bug in the bonus rating where you have to save 114% in a level and as I heard it is still in beta so I hope this will be fixed.

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2014, 09:52:59 pm »
I was thinking about the last one for an hour, then I saw the post: "even more ridicoulos".  Even with this hint, getting that trick done was not the easiest thing!
 Now I got them finally all done and again thanks for this amazing pack!
 Maybe sometime I try to upload my solutions on youtube, when I have the time to get myself into a recording software.
 Hope to see more in the future and there is still Mobilems to beat (Heinious and bonus to go), but I think there is a bug in the bonus rating where you have to save 114% in a level and as I heard it is still in beta so I hope this will be fixed.

I'm pretty sure I fixed the problems in the bonus rating in my latest update. But in case; which level is 114%?
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2014, 09:56:38 pm »
Lemming's Cry, Heaven's smile    112%

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #123 on: October 20, 2014, 09:59:56 pm »
Lemming's Cry, Heaven's smile    112%

ok thanks. I actually removed that level from the pack [it was just a level from ONML altered slightly anyway]
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2014, 11:20:56 pm »
Ok I'm doing it. I just got myself into a recording sofware today and I will make (actually I am making) a walkthrough of the pack with my solutions on my youtube channel.
First time making videos, but I hope this will turn out alright. Hope I backrouted just a few!
I will link the pack and lemmini of course! :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #125 on: October 22, 2014, 11:27:59 pm »
Here's the link to IchoTolot's playlist.

Looking forward to seeing how you solved my levels  :P

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #126 on: October 22, 2014, 11:35:14 pm »
Ok I'm doing it. I just got myself into a recording sofware today and I will make (actually I am making) a walkthrough of the pack with my solutions on my youtube channel.
First time making videos, but I hope this will turn out alright. Hope I backrouted just a few!
I will link the pack and lemmini of course! :)

 :thumbsup:
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline t3tesla

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2014, 11:24:30 am »
Hi there,
I'm curently playing this amazing pack.
I found some backroutes for some levels. I have uploaded videos on youtube if you don't use lemmini replays.

Frenzy 18 - Patience, Young Grasshopper
As möbius said, this level has multiple solutions
This one is a simple and straight way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P7VDmr5UV8


Frenzy 27 - Nemesis
The right part of the level is useless...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPNfr0MmXsc


Carnage 18 - Oil Refinery
My solution looks too simple for carnage rating and save a digger...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOHVMY3JnwI


Carnage 19 - Changing of the Guards
My solution looks dirty : digging in the water :/
Maybe the intended solution was attached by Akseli here http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=869.msg18231#msg18231
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96aYb_X7BxA


Carnage 25 - Dead's Head
100% is possible. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7R5NudBcjY


For Carnage 22 - The French Connection, I dont know if I have the intended solution...
Working near the traps is messy, I don't like my solution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwd7fKp2nvE

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2014, 07:06:08 pm »
Ooo, crumbs.  Yeah, some backroutes I need to patch there!  Nice finds.

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #129 on: October 30, 2014, 08:26:53 pm »
Okay, I've patched backroutes in the following levels:

- The Final Countdown
- Nemesis
- Oil Refinery

And Pieuw, I took your comment regarding "Build it up with iron and steel" to heart.  The original version as played in CustLemm isn't so nightmarish because you can stretch bridges a lot more, but in Lemmini it becomes very difficult.  As a result, I have narrowed the chasm slightly so the difficulty of execution is a lot fairer.  Hopefully that means all my levels are now neutral or above in your feedback form!  I've sent möbius a ZIP file with the changes.

Crystal Caves isn't really a skill level as such, more of an "adventure level" as Proxima put it.  It was meant to give an air of "classic Mayhem" with the 9 minute time limit, limited skills and the fact it gives you 20 bombers despite it requiring 100% to pass!

The original Blast Furnace as included in this pack is very backroutable, but it does have a charm about it (and it's a level I'm fond of because I first designed it on paper back in 1994 when I was only 8!).  My solution to patching them was to make a "Blast Furnace (Part Two)" that meant you had to really take a roundabout route, but that level didn't make it into the pack.

P.S. My absolute favourite level in Revenge of the Lemmings is Armageddon 29: "Duality".  I think the solution is absolutely beautiful and is actually the reason behind my choice of music for the level (p7).

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #130 on: October 30, 2014, 09:12:49 pm »
thanks for those replays! That's a pretyt nasty backroute to The French Connection, that I would've thought those traps prevented... I'll be filling that hole up with steel then].

Anyway, I will probably be removing that level altogether since I have my own pack now I'll be removing all of my levels.

Also; changing of the guards, I need to contect Proxima, but apart from that; since we now have steel for the bubble tileset, we can at least fix the problem of fake steel in the level and that might help with this backroute
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #131 on: October 31, 2014, 01:08:32 am »
From IchoTol0t's playlist... I sense this might be a backroute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dfBD-BZiNM&index=90&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlJc4yCh5nRL0pxylTVeAUBm

Quote from: Spoiler
My solution involves both climbers being on the same side and the blocker and bomber being applied to a single lemming on the other side.  I can't be sure if my solution is intended or not, but it looks plausible considering it breaks the level's symmetry, which I assumed was designed to throw players off, especially as it's the last level of Frenzy.

That is, for one side, a climber exits the pit and builds across the first gap, but is forced to turn around, at which point he eventually finds his way to a flamethrower.  The second climber then builds across the second gap to the exit, then the horde can build themselves out of the pit.  For the other side, lemmings immediately start building out of the pit, and a blocker is placed on top of the steel plate while letting one lemming pass.  This lemming then builds across the two gaps to the exit, and then the blocker is bombed.

Fernito, if the solution in the video above is indeed a backroute, then a fix would be changing the left wall of the pits into steel plates, so a bomber can't blow a hole in the wall.

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #132 on: November 02, 2014, 08:32:03 pm »
-announcement-

I'll be making some major updates to the pack. Most notably:

-this update will be more of an 'alternate version' than an update; mostly because of the following:
-It will be compatible with superLemmini. As such I'll be including levels that were voted in but can't work under old Lemmini mechanics.
-A Bunch of levels will be moved around for difficulty placement and some levels removed and replaced.

What I need now is some feedback;
-it's been suggested that we might add one more difficulty rating before all others, to make a more suitable Fun rating for beginners. The only down side is it would mean adding quite a bit more levels to an already huge level pack.

-How many people are in favor of the bonus rating? I like quite a few of the levels in there but I also feel like a lot of people really don't care for it and it. Some levels will be moving to the normal ratings and a lot won't work in SuperLemmini. What I might do is simply condense it into a much smaller rating.

-If anyone is OK with have a level of your's duplicated and/or altered to be a fun level [10/20 of each skill] could you post and say so. I won't do this unless the author allows it.

From IchoTol0t's playlist... I sense this might be a backroute:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dfBD-BZiNM&index=90&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlJc4yCh5nRL0pxylTVeAUBm

Quote from: Spoiler
My solution involves both climbers being on the same side and the blocker and bomber being applied to a single lemming on the other side.  I can't be sure if my solution is intended or not, but it looks plausible considering it breaks the level's symmetry, which I assumed was designed to throw players off, especially as it's the last level of Frenzy.

That is, for one side, a climber exits the pit and builds across the first gap, but is forced to turn around, at which point he eventually finds his way to a flamethrower.  The second climber then builds across the second gap to the exit, then the horde can build themselves out of the pit.  For the other side, lemmings immediately start building out of the pit, and a blocker is placed on top of the steel plate while letting one lemming pass.  This lemming then builds across the two gaps to the exit, and then the blocker is bombed.

Fernito, if the solution in the video above is indeed a backroute, then a fix would be changing the left wall of the pits into steel plates, so a bomber can't blow a hole in the wall.

I don't know the intended solution to that level, I don't think Fernito ever got back to me; he might have but I mix him up with "Fleech" who has posted in this topic.

as it is I vote to leave it as is; we have plenty of difficult levels with exacting solutions and could use easier ones anyway. It's worth noting that this level originally had just 1:00. I had to change that because Lemmini's clock works differently and 1:00 was not possible [else extremely hard and annoying]

Now, SuperLemmini's clock may allow for the original 1:00 but I'm not sure that would even change the backroute status anyway, would it?
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Offline Minim

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2014, 08:44:13 pm »
I'd appreciate the idea of a bonus rating before others, because the learning curve does get quite steep during the first rating. There's no limit to the number of levels you can have. ;) As an example maybe you could just make simple versions of levels from each author.
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #134 on: November 02, 2014, 08:54:31 pm »
If you remove and change a lot of levels and maybe even add/remove difficulty ratings than how about making two seperate versions: one original link with bonus rating and the original stuff (Lemmini only version!) and one link with the extra beginner rating, removed bonus rating and all the stuff you want to change (Superlemini/Lemmini version)?  Personally I think removing some of the Lemmini mechanics specific ones would be a loss for the pack (some of them were quite awesome!).

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2014, 12:20:02 am »
Personally I'm not a huge fan of the Bonus rating because of how cheesy it is in places (although Clay Man got a laugh from a friend when I first showed him the Digger/Blocker trick!).

I definitely support the idea of a difficulty rating between Picnic and Hootenanny, maybe named "Devious".  Heck, maybe "Lemming Cathodes" can demand 100% again if placed there!

It is definitely an option to add easier versions of harder levels to fill spaces, as DMA did it with the original game, although we shouldn't overdo it.  I think GARJEN04.DAT of my levels were Fun/Tricky-rated so you might find some things in there.  I vaguely remember "Element" being a fairly tricky level because, besides having 10 of everything, you have to do some awkward building and bashing between some curving pillars.

Or we can have a voting contest again on what to put in Picnic and Devious.

Regarding "Clonic Inferno", I made mention of the backroute because Pieuw made the comment that it's way too easy to be the last level of Frenzy.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2014, 12:33:28 am »
But which solution did Pieuw find when he said it was too easy? I would put it the other way round -- IchoTolot's solution is conceptually more complex and elegant, whereas yours is maybe too simple for this level's place. I'm not sure about a good way to fix it, though  :(

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #137 on: November 03, 2014, 07:25:36 am »
"Devious" sounds a bit hard for a second rating, maybe something like "Cheeky".

Offline Wafflem

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #138 on: November 03, 2014, 01:33:52 pm »
There is already a fangame that uses "Cheeky" as the second rating, so I'm not too sure about using that for this one. Perhaps Devious can come after Hootenanny.

I also strongly support the idea of another rank, especially since I found some of the levels to be tricky/hard in Picnic and Hootenanny such as Picnic 9, "Play Bridge", Picnic 24 "The Endless Steps" and Hootenanny 1 "Rhapsody". Should the Picnic levels be moved to Hootenanny and the Hootenanny levels to Devious?

Also, should other levels also be considered (i.e. those that haven't been nominated yet)? I've made a topic that consists of many levelpacks that have been spread all over the internet (including the VTM), but ultimately saved by me into the Database, and those are tons of very good levels I added. Maybe those can go into consideration.

One other thing to point out in the Lemmix version is that the Bonus rating should be Lemmini-exclusive only, since many of the levels there obviously don't work under Lemmix mechanics. (EDIT: Though that rating could be used for Lemmix-exclusive levels like Lemmix-related glitches) Also, GLITCHSPACE (Bonus 18) uses a special VGASPEC that will never work in Lemmix because it has more than seven colors.

Also, if people want to use CheatCodes to access the Hootenanny and Armageddon levels, this is impossible due to the two difficulty names filling up the 10-character limit for passwords.
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #139 on: November 03, 2014, 05:02:54 pm »
Simply moving Picnic to Hootenanny, and Hootenanny to Devious, is likely oversimplistic.  After all, the first two levels of Picnic are very much on par with Fun and Tricky in the original, but then takes a giant leap in Level 3.  Similarly, the last level of Picnic, "The Final Countdown", I think is right for the difficulty (I'd estimate it to be early Taxing), since it's a taste of things to come in regards to puzzle solving, plus the name really suits it as a final level.  "Guns Blazing" feels right as Picnic 29 too.

It's mostly a matter of filling the empty slots and rearranging levels that are possibly too easy or too hard for the difficulty rating that they are in.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #140 on: November 03, 2014, 11:01:09 pm »
OK, here's what I think we should do:
I'll update the Lemmini pack with the fixes Crane just gave me and maybe any other necessary current fixes (Proxima's music) and keep that as the "Lemmini version"

Then we'll work on the SuperLemmini version which will;
-remove the bonus rating and replace it with an easier rating and move that to the beginning. I don't intend to simply move everything up. I will rearrange the levels accordingly.
Also note that some levels from the bonus rating I will be keeping [they aren't all glitch levels].

Also, should other levels also be considered (i.e. those that haven't been nominated yet)? I've made a topic that consists of many levelpacks that have been spread all over the internet (including the VTM), but ultimately saved by me into the Database, and those are tons of very good levels I added. Maybe those can go into consideration.

One other thing to point out in the Lemmix version is that the Bonus rating should be Lemmini-exclusive only, since many of the levels there obviously don't work under Lemmix mechanics. (EDIT: Though that rating could be used for Lemmix-exclusive levels like Lemmix-related glitches) Also, GLITCHSPACE (Bonus 18) uses a special VGASPEC that will never work in Lemmix because it has more than seven colors.

Also, if people want to use CheatCodes to access the Hootenanny and Armageddon levels, this is impossible due to the two difficulty names filling up the 10-character limit for passwords.

thanks for that about the codes. I had no idea  :-\ I'd like to fix that. I'll accept suggestions for another title in place of Hootenanny, I really like Armageddon tho, is there a shortened form of Armageddon somehow? Devious sounds good as somewhere in the middle.

If you'd like to recommend levels from that new batch you posted (or any) you can do so here.
I'd prefer not recomending any levels from Cheapo. There are so many there that's its really possible to make a whole new levelpack from just that and that would work better in Lix.
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Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #141 on: November 03, 2014, 11:09:21 pm »
Also, GLITCHSPACE (Bonus 18) uses a special VGASPEC that will never work in Lemmix because it has more than seven colors.

Actually, VGASPECs with more than 7 colors have been supported for quite some time now (yes, it was originally a NeoLemmix feature, but I've long since added support for it to traditional Lemmix too).
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Offline Wafflem

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #142 on: November 04, 2014, 03:36:47 am »
Thanks for pointing this out. I wasn't sure about that since the Traditional players runs mostly on DOS features.

thanks for that about the codes. I had no idea  :-\ I'd like to fix that. I'll accept suggestions for another title in place of Hootenanny, I really like Armageddon tho, is there a shortened form of Armageddon somehow? Devious sounds good as somewhere in the middle.

If you'd like to recommend levels from that new batch you posted (or any) you can do so here.
I'd prefer not recomending any levels from Cheapo. There are so many there that's its really possible to make a whole new levelpack from just that and that would work better in Lix.

Well, the best thing I can think of is Armagedn. Alternatively, perhaps namida can find a way to make it so all you need to do is type a rank number and level number (e.g. Hootenanny 27 is 0227, very much like LookforLVLFiles). This won't ruin the rank names, and it makes accessing levels a lot easier. This feature was already done in NeoLemmix.

Another issue to point out with the Lemmix version is that some objects, if they are over the upper or lower boundaries, tend to disappear. I've attached a picture of Pain 27 for example. Picnic 14 and Armageddon 1 have it even worse, because the former's entrance on the top left is gone, and the latter's exit completely disappears.

I'll go over the levelpacks and see which ones work great for this pack. Admittedly, I haven't really played the levels yet, but I know that other people have and really enjoyed them based on discussion in older forums. I'll go over the VTM packs first and see which ones work very well for inclusion. I also remember that Tumble Weed had a lot of very good and well-designed levels; the best place to start would be his hand-picked best levels in twbestof.dat. t3tesla also posted his review of the game here; his old level pack that he uploaded in an older version of the Garjen site is also in the database.

Should uci's Christmas 2013 level be included? This is partly because the pack is lacking in Christmas levels, and partly because the level is actually very good and works very well as a Picnic or Hootenanny level.
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Offline namida

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #143 on: November 04, 2014, 05:41:48 am »
I'll make sure to add that feature (shortened cheatcodes) to the next update, and fix the Y<0 bug (actually, if I'm not mistaken, the correct DOS behaviour for an object with a Y coordinate less than zero is to draw it correctly, but treat it as fake? I'll have to investigate that; whatever DOS does is what I'll make traditional Lemmix do). :)


Off the top of my head, NeoLemmix features that ARE supported in Traditional Lemmix (there might be a couple more):
- 32-color graphic sets
- Full-color VGASPECs
- NeoLemmix-style oddtabling
- Specifying music tracks for a level
- In-game / preview screen image saving
- Dumping LVL files (though of course, traditional dumps them in traditional LVL format)

Additionally, dumping images of all levels is on the todo list; I just haven't implemented it *yet*.
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Offline t3tesla

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #144 on: November 05, 2014, 05:37:50 pm »
-How many people are in favor of the bonus rating?

Bonus rating is a nice idea.
When I can't solve a level, I like to know if I have to search again a 'normal' solution, with tools I already know.
It's painful when I search, stuck, give up, and note that the solution is based on an 'irregular' trick.
With the bonus rating, I know I have to explore all the specificities of the game, I have to search clues in the "Glitches in Lemmings/Lemini" topic,...

The problem is how can you define what is a "regular trick" and what is an "irregular trick" ;-)


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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #145 on: November 05, 2014, 05:52:38 pm »
Just a thought, but before we nominate new levels, should we nominate first which levels should be removed from the game?
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #146 on: November 05, 2014, 06:34:06 pm »
I'm a bit worried about removing levels unless they're universally hated and the designer has already been given a chance to improve them, although of course, it's not my call.  Which levels did you have in mind?

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #147 on: November 05, 2014, 06:38:43 pm »
I have no levels in mind yet; it's just a suggestion.
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Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #148 on: November 05, 2014, 11:07:32 pm »
Here is my list. Blue levels are those which I think should probably be moved for difficulty reasons. Orange are ones which I've thought about removing. Note: This is only for consideration, I haven't made up my mind on these yet. Some I really want to keep.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/RevengeList%20-%20New.xlsx
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #149 on: November 05, 2014, 11:33:56 pm »
It's tricky, because some levels are loved by some and hated by others.  Make sure to take a look a Pieuw's list as well, as it contains some interesting insight.

Offline Akseli

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2014, 07:25:50 pm »
IchoTolot finished his entire playlist for Revenge of the Lemmings a moment ago in YouTube, so there's now solutions for all the 210 levels! Another reminder of the link to his playlist. Level authors may now watch how their levels were solved and find out if there was anything interesting! :) Super awesome work, IchoTolot! :thumbsup:

Excellent work Pieuw, too! :thumbsup: His spreadsheet covers all the main ratings currently, authors may read now what he thought of all those levels, as Crane just mentioned.

Offline Nepster

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #151 on: November 11, 2014, 09:14:41 pm »
Here is a replay of Vegetation Reign (Armageddon 1), that is most likely not quite intended.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #152 on: November 11, 2014, 09:37:40 pm »
Nice, seems very careful skill placement there, might be harder than the intended solution. I managed to save an extra lemming too, but in the intended way. However, your solution is mostly correct.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #153 on: November 11, 2014, 10:00:59 pm »
IchoTolot finished his entire playlist for Revenge of the Lemmings a moment ago in YouTube, so there's now solutions for all the 210 levels! Another reminder of the link to his playlist. Level authors may now watch how their levels were solved and find out if there was anything interesting! :) Super awesome work, IchoTolot! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the compliment! I hope this really helps to fix more of those nasty backroutes.
 I've got currently about 30 levels ready for my own pack (will be 5 main ratings a 30lvl) 11 of those for the 4th and 5th rating and I wanna say thank you to all the level creators and the people who have written the guides for "how to get Lemmix working"  for showing me that level making isn't magic and I can do it myself, too! I will also using some tilesets: For example Pieuw's Castle tileset aswell as PacGuy's Shadow and Egyptian tileset as a regular one.
As for my channel I will start uploading my MobiLems (V6 I think) solutions as well as some sneak peaks into the upcomming pack in the near future.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #154 on: November 11, 2014, 10:17:17 pm »
Congratulations, IchoTolot!  8)

Exactly the intended solutions for "Behind Bars" and "Changing of the Guards".

That is a backroute in "Rhapsody in Blue" but I'll let it go. The Lix version is different anyway, as it doesn't have that steel on the far left so you have to use a builder there. I guess this could be simulated in the RotL version by removing one builder, but then you wouldn't have the 2-of-everything.

"Vignette" should have an RR of 90; I think mobius just made a typo there  :P

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2014, 10:44:13 pm »
Congratulations, IchoTolot!  8)

Exactly the intended solutions for "Behind Bars" and "Changing of the Guards".

That is a backroute in "Rhapsody in Blue" but I'll let it go. The Lix version is different anyway, as it doesn't have that steel on the far left so you have to use a builder there. I guess this could be simulated in the RotL version by removing one builder, but then you wouldn't have the 2-of-everything.

"Vignette" should have an RR of 90; I think mobius just made a typo there  :P

Since we'll be using SuperLemmini for this next version it will be able to be more like the original. Sometime by PM remind me of what the original solution was, even thought I knew it.
Also changing of the guards: I'll be adding steel to the bubble set to take care of that "hidden" steel
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #156 on: November 27, 2014, 05:40:46 pm »
Current list of changes:

Levels altered (or to be altered): [because of backroutes unless stated otherwise]
Serendipity,
Wish you had them? -
Lemming Recycling Plant,
Think Again,
Vignette,
Rhapsody in Blue
The Final Countdown
Build it up with iron and steel
Crystal Caves - lemming count increased to 100
Faithful Friends
Nemesis
Death or Glory! [name fixed]
Oil Refinery
Oh No, Not Again, slight change to make beginning part easier, decoration added
Stuff in the way, decoration added



I think I'll change my mind about From the Brink and go with the original version, it is very hard but it's not as ridiculous as I said earlier and feel kind of bad about putting it down. Besides, I don't think this easy version will work. I'd also like to duplicate this one for a blocker tutorial.


New Levels:
Minimal Trouble - Ellischant
Primal Technology - Ellischant
Use Your Brain Skillfully - MCMarshy
Dangerzone - t3tesla
Suicidal Tendencies - t3tesla
There's Madness in the Method - t3tesla
Split Complimentaries - Insane Steve
The Silent Circus - BulletRide
one way block - Minim, also may duplicate this one for an easy level
You have been fooled! - Minim
Lemming in a Cone - Martin Zurlinden
Someone must help us! - Matthias Witt
Now Use Miner's and Buidlers - Gronkling
Four Lemmings And a Funeral, Martin Zurlinden
The Wind Which Blows, Dodochacalo (needs testing)

others under consideration; (for inclusion or Removal)
Dr. Lemmingood - t3tesla; if Nepster's second solution is enforced this would make a good tutorial style level for those two tricks
Lemmings in a Situation - t3tesla; not sure if I should enforce one particular solution over another.
Ice Ice Lemming - t3tesla; same comment as above.
Mental Process - Insane Steve, ISteve remade for this one for Lix
six ways to success, Martin Zurlinden
Clay Man (part 1) - BulletRide
Lemming Dilemma and others by Proxima

Dilemma - Fernito; got some comments saying this level is a little too easy?
Gotta Keep Em Seperated; some backroutes
Pyramid Puzzle - BulletRide;
Blast Furnace - I'd like to go with the harder version instead (since we now have plenty of easy levels)

--EDIT---
any ideas for a title of the new rating? Also since a few people disliked the title "Hootenanny" you can offer more than 1 idea for that an other ratings
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #157 on: November 29, 2014, 02:41:06 pm »
Don't forget that Lemming Cathodes has had the requirement increased back to 100%, so its Mayhem-like difficulty has returned!

For difficulty name suggestions:

- Breeze (as one level higher than Picnic)
- Devious (new difficulty before Frenzy)

Personally I like Hootenanny - it's unique.

Offline t3tesla

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #158 on: November 30, 2014, 11:10:23 am »
others under consideration; (for inclusion or Removal)
Dr. Lemmingood - t3tesla; if Nepster's second solution is enforced this would make a good tutorial style level for those two tricks
Lemmings in a Situation - t3tesla; not sure if I should enforce one particular solution over another.
Ice Ice Lemming - t3tesla; same comment as above.

Thanks for considering these levels ;)
On "Community Request: Find Backroutes!" topic ( http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1107.msg23969#msg23969), I answer some of your questions.
Feel free to change the levels to remove backroute if you want add them into the pack.
You can also change the titles ;-)


Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #159 on: November 30, 2014, 01:44:36 pm »
This is not really a report or anything but just something I want to show off!  Find attached a replay of Duality (Armageddon 29) where only one lemming dies.  Note that this is played under SuperLemmini 0.98 and won't work on Lemmini due to miners not turning around if they hit steel in the latter (although the solution is still valid, only the first miner dies).  As a result it should work under Lemmix and DOS Lemmings too etc., at least in principle.

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #160 on: December 01, 2014, 10:06:35 am »
Got another 1-loss solution, this one using more 'tradtional' tricks' (e.g. mining into one-way arrows).  It took me a while to get this one to work because the final basher and builder are unforgivingly precise.

Note that I don't consider these backroutes (although techically they are) because they are very difficult to pull off and, if anything, are a nice challenge to save as many lemmings as possible.  I don't think there's a 100% solution.

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #161 on: December 02, 2014, 03:25:52 am »
on Duality;
I love that this level has so many solutions!
I'm going to have a look at your solutions later. I am  thinking about limiting them somewhat, though I have no idea how to do that

Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
geoo found a pretty ingenious solution which involves using a climb bomber on the pillars to the left of the bottom entrance to trap the lemmings in. In fact, I think this is my favorite solution, the only really trick part is timing. Where-as bashing out the blocker on steps can be difficult. Actually, until I try it on SuperLemmini, I should say it's not really that difficult, but just seems a tad messy to me.

The Intended solution has two tricks; [geoo sent me a replay Yawg made years ago] using a basher inside the miner's tunnel at the beginning to free 3 bashers for the end. Then you block on the one-way block near the exit and free this blocker with a digger, this I'm sure works in SuperLemmini but can be difficult.

Maybe if anything I might try to eliminate the solution where you block on the steps. Since that's tricky to free him without making a hole in the step.

In other newsl; I just found a pretty awesome solution for Patience Young Grasshopper imo that looses only two lemmings and relies on some tricky timing. The tricky part will be getting it to work, but I'm going to try and enforce that solution.
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #162 on: December 02, 2014, 10:10:18 am »
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
My two solutions above can be prevented, I believe, by increasing the spacing between the four one-way walls at the end by about 16 (small) pixels.

My very first solution to this level, and by far the cleanest (doesn't use any precise trickery) involves building over the water and sacrificing that lemming, and turning the second lemming into a blocker on the steel, far enough away that he doesn't damage the bridge upon exploding later.  At the top, you bash, mine, then bash through the large wall towards the exit, and you mine through the bricks in the top left to stop lemmings from walking to their deaths, although you have to turn this lemming into a digger at the last second so he doesn't breach the chasm, which will happen even if he strikes the steel floor.

This part I think is standard to all solutions.  Before you break through towards the exit, have a left-facing lemming mine towards the other trapdoor, complete the bridge across the water and then build back up to the miner's tunnel.  Bomb the blocker and let the trapped lemmings rendezvous with the rest.

Finally, you send two climbers over the wall and have them dig down the final stack to remove it.  Make sure the left digger goes first by a safe margin so he can build once low enough so he can hit the remainder of the stack and turn around.  Use your remaining miner and digger to clear the next stack by digging about 2/3 of the way down and mining the rest of the way (don't hit the steel floor) and then using the final two bashers to clear the last two stacks.  If this climber ends up climbing back into the tunnel, he will walk down towards the lower trapdoor, climb the column and turn around safely.  There should be more than enough time for this to happen.

Tools left over: -- 02 01 01 -- -- -- --

A minor variation of this involves sending only one climber and having him build from the far right stack to hit the ceiling over the exit, and use the two diggers to clear that stack by himself.  It takes slightly longer but saves a climber.

Nevertheless, I'd personally leave the level as is because the 1-loss solutions are, in my opinion, a nice custom challenge and none of the solutions detract from the fact that I think Duality is an absolutely beautiful level and by far my favourite in the entirety of Revenge of the Lemmings.


EDIT: I've tried the ingenious solution you mentioned geoo found, or something resembling it.  Would it be anything like this?

I've also attached the original way I solved it.

Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #163 on: December 10, 2014, 02:08:40 pm »
I've just discovered that Frenzy 6: "Life in the THIRD DIMENSION!" is unsolvable in SuperLemmini - the lemmings walk straight past the exit without interacting with it.

Also, just a minor request... can the Release Rate on Oil Refinery be increased from 40 to 50? It was originally designed with having to exploit a "walk-through blocker" under the trapdoor.  Because that doesn't work with Lemmini, the Release Rate was reduced slightly to compensate, but seeing as it works in SuperLemmini, it can be put back up to 50 now.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #164 on: December 10, 2014, 09:51:11 pm »
I've just discovered that Frenzy 6: "Life in the THIRD DIMENSION!" is unsolvable in SuperLemmini - the lemmings walk straight past the exit without interacting with it.

Also, just a minor request... can the Release Rate on Oil Refinery be increased from 40 to 50? It was originally designed with having to exploit a "walk-through blocker" under the trapdoor.  Because that doesn't work with Lemmini, the Release Rate was reduced slightly to compensate, but seeing as it works in SuperLemmini, it can be put back up to 50 now.

Are you playing all of the levels? You don't have to do this, but if you are, you could take note of which levels don't work. I was expecting this and will do it (if you or anybody else doesn't) myself. A lot of levels will require fixes.

Also I'll note down Oil Refinery

I just didn't get a chance to answer your other questions yet, sorry. IF you haven't you should upgrade to the latest version of SuperLemmini, old replays won't work in the new. [wait, maybe you should keep the old one as well...]
To answer your question from the other thread; I was interested in Mastermind but maybe I should decline it because the level list is now almost full. There will be at least 2-4 new levels from Cheapo [by Ben Bryant] which I've remade.
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #165 on: December 12, 2014, 07:11:57 pm »
I am sad that I couldn't properly patch Mastermind.  I will do eventually, but I feel that it may not find a place in the pack, even if it is made backroute free and still nice and difficult!  I have been using the latest version of SuperLemmini, especially after stumbling upon that Miner glitch in Overflow.

Other things I've noticed so far:

- Trapdoors where lemmings exit to the left will have to be double-checked, as sometimes they can get jammed in the hidden terrain (e.g. Vignette).
- "Impasse" has a bug that also exists in Lemmini, although it isn't game-breaking.  The Lemmings don't actually get roasted in the fire traps; instead, they fall straight past them to the bottom of the screen.

With "Eye of the needle", I prefer the older version that doesn't have a steel plate at the end of the walkway, since I remember spending an age trying to get perfect bomber placement, but always failing and then finally realising it was a red herring!  Is it entirely necessary, or is there some other backroute that I'm not aware of and the plate is required to patch it?

P.S. I'm playing it mostly for myself, just to see if I can pass it now!

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #166 on: December 12, 2014, 09:38:27 pm »
I am sad that I couldn't properly patch Mastermind.  I will do eventually, but I feel that it may not find a place in the pack, even if it is made backroute free and still nice and difficult!  I have been using the latest version of SuperLemmini, especially after stumbling upon that Miner glitch in Overflow.

Other things I've noticed so far:

- Trapdoors where lemmings exit to the left will have to be double-checked, as sometimes they can get jammed in the hidden terrain (e.g. Vignette).
- "Impasse" has a bug that also exists in Lemmini, although it isn't game-breaking.  The Lemmings don't actually get roasted in the fire traps; instead, they fall straight past them to the bottom of the screen.

With "Eye of the needle", I prefer the older version that doesn't have a steel plate at the end of the walkway, since I remember spending an age trying to get perfect bomber placement, but always failing and then finally realising it was a red herring!  Is it entirely necessary, or is there some other backroute that I'm not aware of and the plate is required to patch it?

P.S. I'm playing it mostly for myself, just to see if I can pass it now!

Moving the fire on Impasse would probably make it look ugly so I don't think I do anything about it.
As for eye of the needle; I'm not sure I understand you but the intended solution does indeed involve some tricky bomber placement (however, it should not be too tricky as there are two different ways to do it.) I think the version in that pack might be old with 10 climbers? If so, that's a mistake.
It doesn't matter because this level is being removed, with all of mine.
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2014, 05:59:25 pm »
You could possibly extend the terrain slightly on Impasse so it overlaps the housing of the flame pits, but not the flames themselves.  They shouldn't be visible, especially if the fire is not set to "no overwrite".

As for "eye of the needle":

Quote from: Spoiler
I was under the impression that the solution involves sending up three climbers, turning the first one into a builder at the very end of the walkway, turning the second lemming into a blocker to force the builder to turn around while still building, and the third lemming to bomb the start of the ladder so when the builder finishes, he falls down to the lower platform whilst facing left (using the Floater to slow his fall).  That upper walkway originally didn't have a steel plate at the end, so I was trying all sorts of tricks in trying to get the perfect bomber placement to act as a step down (akin to Crazy 3), but the splat distance was always too high.

Shame it's getting removed though.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2014, 09:04:33 pm »
You could possibly extend the terrain slightly on Impasse so it overlaps the housing of the flame pits, but not the flames themselves.  They shouldn't be visible, especially if the fire is not set to "no overwrite".

As for "eye of the needle":

Quote from: Spoiler
I was under the impression that the solution involves sending up three climbers, turning the first one into a builder at the very end of the walkway, turning the second lemming into a blocker to force the builder to turn around while still building, and the third lemming to bomb the start of the ladder so when the builder finishes, he falls down to the lower platform whilst facing left (using the Floater to slow his fall).  That upper walkway originally didn't have a steel plate at the end, so I was trying all sorts of tricks in trying to get the perfect bomber placement to act as a step down (akin to Crazy 3), but the splat distance was always too high.

Shame it's getting removed though.

oh, actually that's making the solution a little more complicated than it really is.
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
You don't need to turn the builder.  You can either have the second or third be the bomber and the builder does the blocking. There is one other slightly different way that saves one climber but I don't remember it.]
The last part you mentioned is a backroute though, that shouldn't be possible.

That's a good idea on Impasse
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #169 on: December 14, 2014, 08:38:29 pm »
Another level that doesn't work properly on SuperLemmini: "Wish you had them"

The lemmings get stuck at the top of the level trying to cross those diagonal braces.  The terrain either needs lowering slightly or this level needs a parameter set so Lemmings can walk higher than 6 pixels from the top of the screen or whatever the limit is.

The easier version, "Hunting Season", should automatically pick up the changes if you're using the version that utilises the "mainLevel" parameter.

And yes, using the "Crazy 3" step-down on "Eye of the needle" should not be possible.  The distance between the two platforms is way too great.  At least I couldn't make it work (before the steel plate was put in).  I can imagine one Climber-saving solution would be sending up the second climber so he approaches the builder when he's a couple of steps from finishing, making him a walking bomber, and then blocking him just before he explodes so he turns the builder and also destroys the bridge just as he finishes up.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #170 on: December 15, 2014, 08:53:32 am »
- The exit on "Asian Holiday" doesn't work at ground level, but you normally have spare builders that allow you to reach it.

- Bunker Hill looks absolutely horrible aesthetically in SuperLemmini.

- I'd recommend putting Clonic Inferno back to its original 1 minute, which would justify its placement and really give another level of difficulty.  I've attached a replay showing its solution with some leeway.

- I'm not sure what the intended solution of Unidentified Lemming Object is, but when asked to save 52%, I managed the full 100%.  I posted two similar solutions - the second one is a bit trickier to pull off, but is theoretically possible under Lemmini rules.

- I've found a minor backroute in Lemming Cathodes, which can be fixed simply by increasing the number of lemmings from 50 to 70.  It's impossible at 100, and at 80 it requires a bit too much precision to be fair.  Still, 70 is a nice number that's different to the norm.  See what you think with the attachment below.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #171 on: December 15, 2014, 08:55:41 am »
Some other replays showing leftover skills or saving more lemmings than required in levels that would suggest otherwise, but some of these are less backroute and more luck in terms of timing (or just skill!).

(NOTE: Sorry for the double post, but I had to get around the attachment limit)

Offline mobius

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #172 on: December 15, 2014, 10:36:03 pm »
I've fixed the issue in Wish you had them. Btw, not sure if I'm going to use the main level feature. It seems not that big of time or work saver. Some of the repeats may require minor graphic changes anyway

I don't see any difference in Bunker Hill compared to Lemmini ??? [compared to Lemmix/DOS, yes]  I was thinking of removing this level anyway--I never really liked the solution all that much although it was mildly interesting. Hubbart had some levels of amazing design quality but most of the time the solutions were weird, too precise or backrouted.

I had already planned on putting Clonic Inferno back to its original 1 minute. The reason it was changed was Lemmini's clock was so strict it wasn't solvable before.

I'll have to watch these others, Altitude Training is intended to have multiple solutions--it was part of Clam05 and none of those [except two of them] were supposed to be real difficult

Think Again; I've changed some things. (thanks to Icho Tol0t) For one thing, it was possible to ignore the bottom portion altogether and go over the top; I've removed that route [hopefully]

On Bat Counry; haven't you been following the other thread? :P I've tried to repair backroutes but ultimately I wasn't really able to and will going with an easier(ish) version anyway.

@Crane; another important thing; I'll double check but I think I have the correct version of Faithful friends, [it has the added terrain cut-outs] but the chamelon doesn't work. I just nudged it a few pixels to work properly.
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #173 on: December 18, 2014, 11:01:40 am »
I can double-check Faithful Friends while I help select the level music when the time comes.

Some more notes:

- Good Reception: The zapper traps don't work.  Climbers just climb past them harmlessly.

- Vegetation Reign: You may need a 10th builder or remove some of the terrain around the exit.  Unless my solution is wrong, turning a lemming into a blocker to 'reflect' the builder is just too unfairly precise in SuperLemmini, and even if you pull it off, other lemmings can't actually walk up the rest of the bridge because they turn around too soon.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #174 on: December 18, 2014, 01:41:43 pm »
Hey,

Some more backroutes or curious things.

  • On Carnage 27 - Watch Ye Step!  There is a backroute: I can save a digger. But I don't know if you think this solution use an irregular trick.
    In the video, I use the digger because I didn't realise a builder was enough to deal with the turn around. And by the way, the traps effect area looks curious here (lemmini issue?). http://youtu.be/d0M6imbajCg
  • On Carnage 29 - Wayfaerer, bashing just above the rock trap makes a great and easy path. http://youtu.be/3cKcwYDzPjs
  • On Carnage 30 - Pipe dream , I found a messy solution. Backroute? http://youtu.be/4KgopU5v34Y. Then I checked IchoTol0t playlist and discover the clean solution :)

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #175 on: December 18, 2014, 10:11:29 pm »
thanks for all the help guys  :thumbsup:

-Good Reception; Gronkling requested this level be removed.

-Vegetation Reign; shoot; I was afraid of this when I discovered this problem on another level. That is the intended solution you found Crane and I guess it'll need a change. I don't think it'll end up impacting the level too greatly in the end. I don't want a ton of precision heavy levels anyway.

-Watch Ye Step; I'm removing that level because it has too many backroutes.

-Wayfarer, I think I can fix that pretty easily. Getting it to look good will be the tough part...

-Pipe Dream; that's not so messy imo, but I don't think it will work in SuperLemmini anyway so that's good.

a random question to everyone: on my own copy of SuperLemmini I replaced the boing exit sound with the yippee. Would anyone be interested in me uploading that change with the levelpack?
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Offline Crane

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #176 on: December 19, 2014, 08:45:13 am »
I can't seem to complete Herculems either - I can't get the miner low enough so, when he bombs, the other lemmings can walk into his tunnel.  Either the bomber is too high and they don't step into the tunnel at all, or they do enter the bomber's excavation but can't step into the miner's tunnel beyond.

(To clarify, I use a bomber as far right as I can go, then start mining from the bottom of the pit thats made, then bomb when the miner breaches the other side)

You might need to put a small step or something to give the lemmings a boost up.

Offline t3tesla

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #177 on: December 23, 2014, 01:12:42 pm »
Two more backroutes.
I watch IchoTol0t solution, and see, sadly, that I'm not right :'(

On Getting Stuck in a Cave, the backroute is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46DFWsH8fJg
I see on Gronkling's youtube channel  there is an older version of the level, where the steel is moved a little on the left : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6JCYFyfL4. In this older version, my solution don't work. But I prefer the current version of the level, because the trick with the steel creates possibilities of thinking in a wrong way.
To prevent this backroute, I suggest removing a slight piece of ground where my miner works. Thus, the mining is faster (so the miner reaches to early the exit : the basher has not yet finish his job). See attachment (red=ground to remove), it's just a suggestion.

On Utopia a blocker can be saved : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qej_XsOoCo.
I learnt that a digger can free a blocker when seeing the intended solution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2ZOGly5Ug )... I'm not sure I understand how that trick work.




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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #178 on: December 24, 2014, 12:31:36 am »
thanks again for the replays  :thumbsup: I'll watch them when I get the time (soon)

@t3tesla; you might want to PM Pieuw with that replay of Utopia and Gronkling with Getting Stuck in a Cave

@Crane: I might remove Herculems from the pack. I've had complaints of the annoying bomber timing, of course I've also heard complaints for Endless Steps but I find that really easy compared to Herculems.

I'll get to fixing these if necessary this weekend

thanks to namida and others old posts from previous forums are available to read and I found an old custom level topic which has already proven to be very helpful in answering some questions about old levels in this pack. I've been reading this.
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #179 on: December 24, 2014, 09:27:32 am »
For me on Herculems, it was only the last bomber that was problematic, which I think can be fixed with a step near the start.  It was otherwise a pretty nice puzzle level, since the route wasn't that obvious.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #180 on: December 26, 2014, 10:32:22 am »
I've made possible fixes to Vegetation Reign and Herculems so they work with SuperLemmini mechanics.  Regarding Herculems, even though it's a timed bomber level, it has a unique difficulty about it, and Pieuw certainly liked it!  Also, with the replay feature, it isn't as frustrating as it would have been in the original versions that lacked it.

I also put in 3 hints for each level.  These can be removed if it's too much trouble to put them in every level, or they're too obvious.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #181 on: December 27, 2014, 05:21:20 pm »
Two more backroutes.
I watch IchoTol0t solution, and see, sadly, that I'm not right :'(

On Getting Stuck in a Cave, the backroute is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46DFWsH8fJg
I see on Gronkling's youtube channel  there is an older version of the level, where the steel is moved a little on the left : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6JCYFyfL4. In this older version, my solution don't work. But I prefer the current version of the level, because the trick with the steel creates possibilities of thinking in a wrong way.
To prevent this backroute, I suggest removing a slight piece of ground where my miner works. Thus, the mining is faster (so the miner reaches to early the exit : the basher has not yet finish his job). See attachment (red=ground to remove), it's just a suggestion.

On Utopia a blocker can be saved : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qej_XsOoCo.
I learnt that a digger can free a blocker when seeing the intended solution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2ZOGly5Ug )... I'm not sure I understand how that trick work.

I attempted a fix to Getting Stuck in a cave using your suggestion. (attached below)
I don't have any ideas on fixing Utopia right now. Do you find this level easier than it's position?

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #182 on: December 27, 2014, 08:05:15 pm »
Fixed version of Vegetation Reign - it pays to actually check the level in the game to see if it saved properly!

Offline t3tesla

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #183 on: December 28, 2014, 12:30:24 am »
I attempted a fix to Getting Stuck in a cave using your suggestion. (attached below)
I sent a message to Gronkling about the fix.

I don't have any ideas on fixing Utopia right now. Do you find this level easier than it's position?
Maybe a fix is not necessary for this level: one solution use a trick, the other use a pixel precise idea in the layout. These two solutions have the same complexity.
If you know the trick with blocker and digger, maybe the level is a little easier. The things we have to do on the left part of the map are pretty obvious (for an armageddon rating player), so the hard part is the begining of the level.
I think the level is well positioned.

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #184 on: December 28, 2014, 11:08:42 am »
I don't think Utopia needs a fix, t3tesla's solution doesn't ruin anything. I'm ok with multiple solutions on this one, it is mostly a show-off level :evil:

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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #185 on: April 25, 2015, 06:06:15 pm »
I've decided to move this entire project to NeoLemmix. The reduced graphics are a small price to pay imo for it's abundantly more user friendly than Lemmini or SuperLemmini. Also the mechanics work better which will give me less headaches when testing the levels.

If anyone wants to make a version for SuperLemmini you can do so on your own. Ask me for the files, I have them in INI format and will keep them for such a purpose.
--------

Right now I'm ordering levels and taking out the ones which don't fit. That is; levels that have issues, backroutes etc. I think most of them have been tested enough at this point and it's time to get ready to wrap everything up.

Any further ideas on a new rating title? It's the third level rating that needs a name; currently I'm going with Devious suggested by Crane.
Current order: Picnic, Hootenanny, Devious, Frenzy, Pain, Carnage, Armageddon
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Re: Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #186 on: June 14, 2015, 12:13:26 am »
I may  resume work on this project again soon. Progress on my own pack sort of came to a standstill.

Though it seems like "I don't care" option won; now thanks to Essman and namida making the custom graphic levels I wanted to will be far simpler. I will go ahead and make those levels, possible

Also now with NeoLemmix and the fact that namida's working on a tool to batch convert files I will try to make both a SuperLemmini and a NeoLemmix version of the pack. There should be few differences between the two versions. However I do have some ideas for secret levels.

The the most time consuming part is the testing. With >180 levels it will take a long time to play test every single one.

well, it didn't take as long as I thought I guess, little less than a month away and the testing/ordering is now complete!

I think we're finally nearing completion. All that's left to do now is select the music, then put together the dat files using flexiLemmix.

:party:
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-the Dude


Offline Flopsy

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Re: [Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #187 on: December 07, 2017, 08:24:05 am »
It's been pointed out to me that the links in the first post of this topic are dead.

I'm not sure if you still have these files Mobius but I've been asked about them via PM.
Don't tell me solutions to levels which I have not solved.

Lemmings: Gotta Go Fast - My NEW (in development) Sonic tileset dedicated level pack :)
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Re: [Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #188 on: December 26, 2017, 12:36:03 am »
It's been pointed out to me that the links in the first post of this topic are dead.

I'm not sure if you still have these files Mobius but I've been asked about them via PM.

I'm sorry I didn't see this until now.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9c6wu3lkebhcgkx/Revenge%20of%20the%20Lemmings%20LEMMINI.zip

this is all I have for now; and I'm not certain if this was the latest verison. This is for Lemmini; keep in mind. Other version or the older Lemmix version is on another hardrive somewhere which I need to look for.

nevermind; found a NL version; but I'm still not certain if this is the best version:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/v12mfoldaseq3ce/Revenge%20of%20the%20Lemmings2.08-9-2015.zip

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakwin Rinzai

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline Crane

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Re: [Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #189 on: December 26, 2017, 06:57:16 am »
Möbius gave me the working copy of the Revenge of the Lemmings files last year, so I should still have them on my systems somewhere - I'll see if I can dig them out.  Granted they were a work in progress.

Offline Flopsy

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Re: [Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!
« Reply #190 on: December 26, 2017, 10:32:17 am »
Thanks a lot Mobius.

That Lemmini version is precisely what was missing.

I informed the member who reported the broken link and they are now playing the pack and enjoying it I'm pleased to announce
Don't tell me solutions to levels which I have not solved.

Lemmings: Gotta Go Fast - My NEW (in development) Sonic tileset dedicated level pack :)
SEB Lems - My first level pack (175 levels)
Flopsy's Youtube Channel - Watch Lemmings videos/streams with live commentary
Flopsy's Sonic Graphic Sets - Download Neo Lemmix compatible Sonic tilesets.