Corner case question on the currently implemented version of deadly ceilings (Yes even these don't avoid them ):

What about a Lem walking ~ 3-4 pixels under the ceiling on flat terrain. What will he do when he hits a vertical wall that reaches the ceiling? Will he try to step up and die or simply turn?

I waited for my solutions to be uploaded until they were all acceptable. That means no backroutes and alternative solutions at most.

We came to a very good compromise in IRC today that I personally think will work for both sides:

Distinguishing teleporters from receivers in general

We will change the sprites of every teleporter/receiver pair to include a writing like the L2_Space ones with either "IN/OUT" or "I/O" depending on the sprites size. This will be added to the guidelines of creating a new tileset with teleporters.

Distinguishing turning teleporters/receivers

We will merge the turning with a sprite flip, so that it is visible from the start that the direction is flipped. The new "IN" and "OUT" writings will make this possible ("NI" and "TUO" for turning ones). This way we can keep the behavior intact while it also being visible from the start.


I think this is a fair compromise that hopefully acts like a sign of new found unity and eases some of the frustraition with all the recent critical culling changes.

To slowly get away from all these discussion topics:

I've finished now the currently avialable Allied Act II missions of Mental Omega. Link to the first of the last mission videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfehxONDcc0

Currently recording up the rest of Act II.

Also NepsterLems has reached the Neutron Star rank last week. Link to the first Neutron Star solution video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZ1kuptuzM

I can offer you help with the conversion, as I really want this pack to come out. I saw a very high quality when I played through the demo and loved the work so far.

When the time comes in the future, when the changes that need to happen are final:
I need intended solution replays, the pack and the files for the single levels in the stable version. I have no experience with custom sprites, but I can at least help with the levels after I'm done with my own stuff of course. If you still need it at that point.

Until then I think you can still talk to Nepster about the converted tilesets and find a solution. I can't see a reason why a tileset can't have different exits/hatches. I can see a problem with the number of tiles in one tileset exploding though and there I think a middleway could be found. A few tiles will certainly be redundant but maybe not in the scale Nepster set on them.
I am also interested in these tilesets being successfully converted as I am thinking about making a few levels with them for United, too. (and I would like to have access to all different dreathnought hatches as well )

I don't want to write these anymore, I hate this and I feel as I slowly become the bad guy for a lot of people instead of a helpful person that tests, creates and plays content. I want it to stop, but if I don't reply, my concerns and voice is not being heard either and it will all be worse. These topics need to stop popping up, but they just keep on coming.

A ton of players and designers are frustrated and confused. More like never before. That's one of the reasons I created the checklist topic to visualise the upcoming changes and ease the confusion. I really want the new formats version to be successful, but I see that more and more wrong decisions are being made. I have long accepted the radiation, slowfreeze and ceiling changes, but this trend needs to stop, as recently the peoples patience with the culls has come to an end.


Addressing your consequences:

1) No player in the world will guess all the behaviors correctly, regardless of how you simplify them and therefore NL's tools are here to support him. Also people's guesses differ significally, therefore the right, expected differs depending on the person. 

2)

Quote"The helping features like clear-physics or frame-stepping should never be necessary."

Then we would go back to the stone age only solving 1st rank levels. We have these features to be able to provide better levels where the execution isn't the problem anymore.
That's why I even came over from Lemmini!
I needed frame-stepping to support more complex and precise level design, which then can result in more difficult levels.

3) Both styles are needed to be succesful. You need to be able to think things through, but you also need to try them out -- otherwise you keep on missing even very obvious things. Checking true physics is also part of head solving in my opinion.

4) And here comes the hammer....

Quote"Already existing levels are unimportant"

Then why are we even here? Why are we still following? Why are we even building levels if everything we do is unimportant and doesn't matter? This sentence is a punch in the face for every person who has created a level!
If this is true then we can all stop and call it a day as creating levels is now unimportant.
My whole purpose here is to provide and test content for the people out there and it's now called unimportant. This feels like a knife in the back to be honest.

Quote"If a level does not use player-confusing features, then it will automatically work in the future, too."

Tell that to the people who used radiation and slowfreeze for example.
Also the confusing part HIGHLY depends on the person. If one single person finds a thing even slightly confusing and 100 people don't, then the whole thing gets under the culling axe and is ruined for everyone else? The definition of confusing is shifting for every single person and therefore is extremely shaky.
What is confusing? Which behaviors can I take as safe and granted? I used to know that, but now I am just scared to create new levels that use new stuff and techniques.

Quote"Removing some levels (be it because they don't fit the current culture or have become impossible) is an absolutely normal procedure."

The circumstances under which these removals happen now are the key. A skill that isn't even out yet shakes up a core mechanic. A face-left and flip merge threatens to cull a teleporter feature. Even disarmers were discussed to be culled and I don't need to bring up the overly hard radiation thing up again.
Before bugs and glitches were the main source of culling (as from Lemmix to NL) and that was perfectly acceptable! I just helped in finding the most content friendly way to fix them. Now only existing features and mechanics are being culled.

Quote"On the other hand levels relying too much on the fine points of the game mechanics or the terrain layout usually generate not quite as enthusiasthic feedback."

That I would call untrue and again HIGHLY depends on the person. An excellent level can use the fine points as well as the standard points to it's advantage.

Quote"The amount of code necessary for a feature is absolutely unimportant"

Complexity still plays a role. If a feature needs a year to be implemented then it's a factor. Also a feature that is only a line worth of code and statisfies a bunch of users is a factor.

And now I will speak free directly from my heart:

I only wanted to create and test levels. I didn't want all this physics discussion to happen. I even don't care about NL consisting of binary blobs or single files. I just want to play and ensure everyones content can be played and enjoyed.
But all these incomming culling frenzys, rants, conversion/maintenance work and feature removals are really pushing my limits.

The recent culling frenzy was absolutely uncalled for and to be 100% honest this is the thing I feared the most when namida left. The qoute you said when I ask you about the clear majority for the ceiling change sent me shivers down the spine: "It consists of me, me and me!" So why are we even discussing anymore?
First I found the culling of both radiation and slowfreeze very harsh, even if I am not a fan of both of the features. Also the decision came quite surprising as most people where more on the middle path of culling just slowfreeze as I recall. Then the ceiling change was decided with that qoute and shortly after teleporters came under fire and I fear the warning voices are not heard by you again.   
Before namida and you were in balance and you found a good middleway between critical changes and backwards compability -- now everything has be turned over to cull and replace, while Simon shouts and I qoute IRC here: "<SimonN> I want more oil poured into the ceiling discussion. The heat is intense, everybody is intense, the popcorn is unbearable."
Yes even more oil into the fire and drag the whole thing down even more.........
Even if this is meant in a more comical way it still is damaging, as I feel a lot of disarray currently. I know and like you Simon, but your fire for ranting and complaining goes too far from time to time. I want harmony not arguing! 

As namida isn't active anymore and even though I despite all these physics discussions, you need a counterpart that stands in for the existing content and I feel the need that I have to fill this void even if I hate to do it and it displays me as the bad guy from time to time.

Cull and keep. Change and tradition needs to be in balance! That is the guideline that stands as my goal.

As a final advice and closing sentence: I accept the decisions made until now, but I highly warn to go further down the culling route!


I want to go through my checklist and be done with it.....

Added Nepsters points and changed the post accordingly.

Quote from: chrisleec728 on November 11, 2017, 09:29:20 PM
Hmm, NeoLemmix doesn't appear to have a folder. I have NeoLemmix as an EXE file, the level packs I have are all NXP files and I also see INI files called "Hotkeys" and "Settings".

If NeoLemmix hasn't created a "music" folder yet, you can also create one yourself in the same folder as the EXE. Normally when starting NL the first times it should create one itself.

You can then change the orig_XX and ohno_XX tracks yourself and choose tracks of your preference.

I've decided to make a list with all possible things you will need to change or adjust when converting your packs and levels to the new format version. I will cover everything from tileset to physic changes. That way everything is listed in one central topic, so no more searching around for all the changes.

This list can be incomplete, so please if you found something I missed tell me and I'll update the list. I also try and include new things when they are freshly decided.

Physics changes

Radiation and slowfreeze cull (critical)

With the new format version radiation and slowfreeze-objects will be culled so each level using them will have to be adjusted or removed.

The ceiling will become deadly (critical)

The ceiling will now become deadly so each level in which the solid ceiling behavior is part of the level must be adjusted.
Note: A lot of levels can rely on the old solid ceiling behavior passively in a way that for example stray climbers or lemmings can suddenly die even when not part of the actual solution. I highly recommend countermeasures in these cases + where the ceiling can easily be reached as this can be highly annoying otherwise. So check your stuff carefully for unintentional ceiling dependencies!

Freed blockers can now survive a few more pixels when falling ((mostlikely) non-critical)

There was a bug that freed blockers could only survive 60 pixels falling doen rather than 63. This change will most likely not interfere with any level.

Tileset changes

GigaLems's freedom planet tilesets are ongoing a lot of changes (critical)

A lot of tiles were merged here (mostly rotated/flipped/inverted versions) and therefore levels will need some manual fixing as they will look quite different now.

LP V's machine tileset locked exits need to be placed in a different way (Situationally critical)

Currently you need to place the locked exit's door over a fake real exit. With the culling of "fake" based on my knowledge the locked door gets a non-animated exit around it, so the fake real one will be removed now and the placement of the new locked exit sprite should be checked.

Converted Lemmini castle tileset's flamer will have a more slimmer trigger area analog to orig_fire (Situationally critical)

Currently the castle tileset's famer's trigger area is 5 pixels too thick on the bottom side. This will change to match the standard fireblower trigger area.

L2 + L3 tileset changes (decoration critical)

All the changes are listed here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3209.0

Mostly a lot of decorational pieces will be removed and an identical terrain piece will be added to the list of tiles. This means a few decorational pieces will disappear from your levels and you might reconsider and add new decoration.

All custom background pictures must be selected in the editor again (decoration critical)

With converting your levels the background image you chose has been reset and you will need to select it again for it to be displayed. This is because of technical restrictions.

On top of terrain decorational pieces need to be set to "Only-on-terrain" (decoration critical)

As all decorational objects are now classified as moving objects they will always be displayed behing terrain. So for them to be seen on terrain again they must be set to "Only-on-terrain" giving this option more power.
Objects most likely to be affected are:
- L2 outdoor's spider eyes and bush eyes.
- L2 beach's sun eyes.
- L2 egyptian's sphinx eyes.
- The christmas lights of the original xmas set

If you find more tell me and I'll add them here.

Most exit tops have been merged with the exit (decoration critical)

As it says a lot of exit tops have been merged with the lower exit and you might reconsider your decoration if you have used the exit tops as decoration objects.

Next round is up to determine the 3 levels from rule 1 that advance to the Mixed rounds!

Quote from: kieranmillar on November 09, 2017, 07:41:11 AM
That sort of touches on my point though that these behaviours are already doable with the builder, so if you're gonna add another construction skill you might as well make it not behave in the same way wherever possible, because in the situations where you do want the constructor to turn around you can just use a builder instead. Offer as much opportunity to the designer as you can with a single skill addition by not having it behave in the same way as existing skills, then the designer can get the behaviour they want at the times when it ends up mattering.

Exactly that is not completely true. The builder has (in NeoLemmix) a lot higher backroute potential as the platformer. The height gain and the all time assignability comes into play here. I rather give the player a platformer than a builder, because of all the side effects. Things like builder-stair-blocks and stuff are just not possible with platformers and it's far more reliable in that case. If it would have no turn all the time I would even say the potential is lowered.
I still say L2 got it wrong back then.

Quote from: kieranmillar on November 09, 2017, 12:00:27 AM
Oh the horrors that could have been avoided if the builder didn't let you turn a lemming around. It turns out that this difference is actually a lot more meaningful than you might at first think. By not having to worry about arbitrarily turning around a lemming, you can make the puzzle more focussed, cleaner, and more forgiving, instead of every little bump in terrain being a backroute hazard.

Actually I use exactly this turning around behavior when hitting terrain to enforce these focussed, clean solutions. Often a lemming needs to go back in my levels, but I wanted to force away the general crowd too ---> a platformer gap solves both problems.
This can be seen as different design styles and I must say I rather focus on unique tricks and skill combinations than hindering a climber to turn and for these I want the extra control of the Lemming's direction in which platformers and builders are a great help.

I think you could argue in both directions here. But if builders and platformers (even miners) do not turn this would load all focus on the walker and give it extreme backroute potential and power as it has too many uses.
Also, as I explained a no-turn solution can easily be gained by lowering the other side of the gap.

I still think a lemming platforming when all the bricks are going into the terrain is pointless. It just seems weird that an ongoing construction skill does nothing and won't cancel and I would keep the restrictions, that in my opinion make it a cleaner skill. There are better non weird stalling methods and a change would be for the worse in my opinion.

Thinking about this once more and I even came with more reasons why a change wouldn't make any sense at this point and you can easily even now achieve every wanted situation :

Turn or no turn question

You can easily replicate all 3 possible behaviors with the current mechanic:

1.) For Turn let the platformer simply hit the edge.

2.) No turn + gap sealing: Make the other side 1 pixel lower than the starting side.

3.) No turn + no gap sealing: Make the other side >=1 pixel lower than the starting side.

So you can have all 3 behaviors already. A change would mean no gain here and just cause everybody to fix a ton of broken levels + replays and new backroutes.


Assignment

You can't assign while on flat land or on an upwards hill. Why should/must you be able to? This would only lead in a possible extra turn or some stalling and we've got tons of skills to achieve that already! (Walkers for example)

Again: A change would mean no gain here and just cause everybody to fix a ton of broken levels + replays and new backroutes.

Heigth gain

Why does the platformer need to achieve this? We've got builders, stackers and even stoners for this. This would make the platformer inconsequentional as it isn't flat anymore and achieves even more of the builders use space.

Not to sound like a broken record but: A change would mean no gain here and just cause everybody to fix a ton of broken levels + replays and new backroutes.

Quote from: GigaLem on November 08, 2017, 07:45:45 AM
To be clear here, it builds downwards diagonally, so instead of going up like a normal builder, it goes down

I really like this idea!

This could really be a thing worthy of a serious suggestion!

As ccexplore said, it would need to start from a ledge of course, but I don't see this as a problem. Maybe it can also even go 12 steps just as a builder.

I might have a very simple idea what could work for you mobius:

If NL platformers are in your way for a level and you don't like them: Make the level in Lix!

Why change the entire platformer of one engine when you can have the version you want already in another? And I think Lix could use more Singleplayer content.

"I am not a fan of how the platformers work at all and I'm strongly in favor of reverting them to L2 or Lix's behavior."     Simply do it in L2 or Lix and you're fine anyway!