I agree that the RC version can be used with additional sounds for testing purposes so that we can at least try them out.

I exaggerated yes, but I can easily see that we can get into the "too many sounds" area not only through many new sounds but through the right/wrong ones and I can already see the potential here.

The "Sound Schemes" idea sounds like a very good suggestion. We should use the RC to test it out. Maybe even ask a new playerprofile what they prefer at the first start?

Adding the swimmer to Complete is something we could test. I agree that the sound not being optimal and is my least favorite sound out of the current. Maybe we even find/create a better one that is easier on the ears!

Comments:

QuoteRe-word 'Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskips' as 'Replay After Backwards Frameskips' and uncheck it by default (every effort will be made to preserve current user option, but it may need to be re-set following this change)

The current standard should be 'Don't Replay After Backwards Frameskips' turned off as I recall. So this should be a change of standard as I understand it.

The standard option then should always be 'Replay After Backwards Frameskips'. If the player skips backwards, it is really bad that the standard is then to not save their inputs in a replay. Player input should not be deleted by accident!
Imaginge you discover Backwards Frameskip by accident and then all your progress is lost. That would be a great source of rage.

QuoteAdd "Reset Talismans" button, so players can reset their talisman progress on a per-level basis. Very handy for level testing, and when replaying an already-completed pack!

This should come with an "Are you sure?" promt.

QuoteAdd an "Assign Fail" sound; this plays whenever a skill assignment is attempted, and fails

1st: I think this should also be able to be turned off. Especially in levels where I might needs to spam the skills a bit it could get on someones nerves. Also when you want to precisely place blockers as close together as possible you might run into a ton of extra sounds here as well.

2nd: When skill queuing is on and I assign a skill that can be queued and excuted in a few frames - does it count as failed in that moment? As then it should not count as failed.

QuoteAdd sounds for Jumpers and Laserers - Jumper sound is the one from L2, see SLX for Laserer sound

Could you mabe directly attach the soundfiles?

Also I don't think those should have extra sounds. If you need to spam these in a level it can really get on your nerves!
Currently skill sounds are very limited (bombers,stoners and the disarmer) and I think that is a good thing.

The most controversial thing I see here: Don't overload the player with 1000 sounds! Be it the skill panel or the skills themselves!

QuoteAdd pitch-shifted sound to Skill buttons (modelled on Amiga/Lemmini) - this could also be made optional if people dislike it

100% optional please and it being turned off as standard.

QuoteAdd pitch-shifted sound to RR/SI -/+ buttons (modelled on Amiga/Lemmini) - this can be toggled off in options if players prefer silent RR buttons - this will be "not silent" by default

I have no problem with SLX going the noisy route, but I think here the standard should again be silence.

QuoteChange cursor to Red when in normal Replay mode, and Blue when in Replay Insert mode - another visually very noticeable one, but necessary for adding clarity to these modes. Could be made optional if people dislike it, or the cursors themselves could be redesigned (e.g. with scissor icon, etc).

I am in favor here, but you might need to test this as the red and especially blue could be hard to see against some tilesets - so choose the colors with care. A total redisign would need to be tested first.

@Silken, please be a bit more civil in your tone and not just jump at a person for having a different viewpoint. I get where your point comes from but maybe be a bit more careful in future posts.
Everything is still fine though! 

To quickly elaborate my stand on the topic of AI - even if it goes a bit further than the wiki.
If it sends the discussion too far off topic we could split it up.

Stance on generative AI:

My point on generative AI is to use it as an ally, but be very careful with it.
I haven't used it a lot, but as my job is in the field of computer science we are discovering its uses in our field and how we can improve our work with it.
We are also aware of instances where AI was used without regards for safety/correctness or its learing algorithm even cannibalizing itself. So I saw the dangers!

Like a research paper that was accepted by a reviewer which included AI generated pictures under those one of a mouse with giant genitals. - It went through a peer review!

Also, if AI was used to add a few lines of code to the engine you would not even have the chance to notice it. I can tell you: A ton of programmers use AI from time to time to assist them in formalizing code chunks. You can't blindly use it there either as you still need to test and complie the program anyway - it often mostly helps with syntax.

AI and the wiki:

For a wiki I wouldn't mind it helping us in providing some examples for paragraphs. Never just copy the text though! There lies disaster!
Forming sentences can be hard and having it spit out some ideas can help a lot in the writing process.
Again, we should still write the text ourselves and only use it for assistance - not just mindlessly copying text!

AI and art in general:

Example: If a user wants to make an AI generated tileset it is their decision to make it and ours to use it.
Point about taking Art from others here: It is not like we haven't taken sprites from other stuff ourselves as well: Sonic, Lemmings itself, .... you can extend the list yourself and I would say like 80% of tilesets fall into that category.
Should we remove all Sonic tilesets from NL because of this? I think not.

Especially for music I don't see the big difference here between taking remixes of old video game music and something like an AI altered song.
You don't simply throw somthing at an algorithm and it comes out perfectly. It can take a lot of work to tell an AI exactly what it needs to do.

If the AI thing to remove lyrics/change the voice is unethical so should be the remix in my opinion.
In both the AI variant and the remix work was indeed put in - in both cases human work included! In both cases a human makes art using programs and algorithms.
In most remix cases I highly doubt an official licence from the publisher was aquired before making it! So the playing field is even there.

So what's left is the intend.
Another example: A person wanting to make a lyric free version of a song as it has a nice melody I would not call malicious. An AI algorithm to filter out voices I would not call harmful. Even more when it is used on an old obscure song.
If the AI algorithm to change the voice is used to deceive people instead -like laying words in the artist mouth without highlighting the use of AI- then it turns bad.

I am even a fan of things like "what if band X sang song Y" with the help of AI - often even there you would need to help the AI with your own singing to make it work. The channel "ThereIRuinedIt" explained his working process quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vh4ErO-i5o
Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ThereIRuinedIt/videos

An algorithm to simply slobber up all art on the internet without permission to create blatant copies is a completely different case though and I would agree with GigaLem there! There the intent is malicious!

So I would say I stand in the middle position here by saying that using AI as a tool is OK as long as you are indeed careful with it, double check the outcome and not blindly copy it and your intend is not malicious.
As a result, I would not object its assistance in the creation of a wiki by principle.

Here are my solutions to the pack! The new levels were worth revisiting Zemmings!

I found a nasty backroute on Volume I level 4 though while solving for the talisman solution. I attached that one seperately.

I also will probably record up my solutions during the next days. 

I uploaded my solutions to YouTube including the ones for my own levels.

Rule 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwLqm5-uqBk
Rule 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtsU01dJ6xo
Rule 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUBXs0DpSM8
Rule 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq3kDWW9v6M

Yep Arty's solution was a backroute. Guess I have to place that steel block after all...

Update to my R1 level.

V2: Moved a platform by 1 pixel to the right.

Update to my R2 level.

V2: Added a bit of steel.

Update to my R3 level.

V2: Some terrain changes.
V3: Added a steel piece.

Quote from: ericderkovits on December 29, 2024, 08:55:43 PM@Icho

Rule 1 and Rule 3 solutions are good but not my Rule 2 level

So for V4 I added stomper traps, made digger and stacker skills pickups and 9 of the 10 walkers pickups.


also Colorful Arty backrouted your Rule 3 level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck2qHdVTZ5o&t=82s
He started playing at 1:09:47

I have resolved the level and attached my solution. I think this should be it. 

Although I have a point of criticism here  :

I think 2-3 blocks per row would make the trick being used in that section clear enough.
Having to do every trick 6-7 times is really exhausting when solving/resolving the level.
To comply with the rule when condensing the area to 2-3 blocks: The steel section would probably also be possible to rearrange to function with less space.

I do really like the tricks being used here, but, as explained, having to do everything many times without much variation is really exhausting when solving/resolving.


I will have a look at Arty's solution. Thanks for the notice! 

Here are my replays for the contest levels! 

I don't think there are too many backroutes here, but you never know. 

What a nice surprise announcement after the christmas break! 

From the titles I would choose "Lemmings Memories" as it sounds more unique than just "Classic" or "Nostalgia" - at least in my opinion though. 

Thanks to kaywhyn's post, I've noticed that there was indeed an update to the pack in September!

I've updated my replays so that they solve the newest version of the pack. 

I hope the number of backroutes has decreased now!

As always, I am at my hometown for christmas, so less activity during that timeframe. 

I will probably try and play through the levels when I am back from my hometown christmas break as it seems like the first wave of backroutes has come to an end. 

@ericderkovits

Intended solution for my R3! Great job! 

Also it seems like I finally got that one backroute fixed. 

@ Armani

Intended solutions for my R1 and R3 levels! Great job!