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Messages - IchoTolot

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Actually, I think we are kind of missing the point now that I review namida's original message more carefully.  If I understand correctly the problem considered most severe, is specifically that you can currently do ohno -> drown -> assigned swimmer now and it swims (and recycle the lemming from impending death, to borrow IchoTolot's words).  Proposal B by itself actually is meaningless for this case--you have to specifically remember that the drowning lemming was transitioned from an ohno lemming, so that either the attempted subsequent swimmer assignment is disallowed, or that it is allowed but does not let the lemming swim.

In other words, it seems like you'd need both B and C actually, if I understand the situation accurately.

You are right there, this currently only cover the case the swimmer was assigned before. In the uncovered case assigning a swimmer to that specific lem should be prohibited. General rule could be for all Oh-Noer cases: No more skill assignments to a lemming that was already an Oh-Noer --> Oh-Noers are untouchable.

So in the end it would be: b + c (in the no-assignment case)

The Climber stops climbing, yes, but it doesn't "lose" the Climber skill in the sense that it doesn't suddenly fall off the wall.

That's because the climber is actually placed 1 pixel inside the wall. The Oh-Noer is standing inside the wall and is in no need of the climbing ability.

Instead, with the Climber remaining in its place when oh-noing and sort-of "standing in the air" while doing it, one could argue that Swimmers should do the same, i.e. "stand" on top of the water area an finish the oh-no-animation plus the explosion, rather than continuing to fall.

That would disarm the "Simmers should stand on water" argument, as the climber Oh-Noer stands on solid ground on the most outer wall column.

Floaters and Gliders can't oh-no, and coincidentally, Oh-Noers can neither float nor glide, because they never reach splat height anyway before exploding, as I've repeatedly outlined in this thread. So we never actually see whether they "lose" the skill, unless you'd want to argue that floating or gliding lemmings already open up their parachutes very early during a drop, i.e. even before a regular lemming would reach splat height - and Oh-Noers don't.

If a glider or floater digs and before turning into a faller the digger is given a bomber in mid-air, he turns into an Oh-Noer and falling like a normal lem ignoring the glider/floater ability to fall slower/glide forward hinting at that the lemming has lost the skill --> supporting my argument for the drowning swimmer in my last post:

If the Lemming should not behave like a swimmer that therefore renders out swimming (after the basic assumption) and exploding (as that would imply that he switch to swimming), he should behave like every other Oh-Noing and simply drown, what would be consistant with 1.) on top of that: A oh-noing swimmer should not swim anymore, but again should be "eaten" by the water.

As that would then not only be consistent with disarmers and climbers, but also floaters and gliders.

It still feels right to me that the oh-noer should not be a special case that doesn't react to water at all. So I think a reaction should be there.

Now is the question: Explosion, swimming or drowning?

Swimming I think should be out as that would recycle the Lemming. That seems to be in the minds of most people here.

And between an instant explosion (which seems very weird to me) and the drowning I still think the drowning is the answer even if the Lem is a swimmer. The Oh-Noer I think should cancel out the other permanent skills. Also this would create a completely new type of special case where an Oh-Noer can be cut short for a faster explosion.

Let's take the following line of thinking under the basic assumption "Swimming should be out of the question as that would recycle the Lemming":

1.) An oh-noing disarmer should not be able to disarm traps anymore, although he can be eaten by them. (A oh-noing climber also stops climbing for example)

2.) A swimmer being assigned a bomber explodes instantly, but this is a no Oh-No case and he does not swim anymore right after the assignment and just explodes.

3.) In our problem we have the case that the Lemming is already Oh-Noing and does not already swim.

4.) We have situation 3.) now and under the assumption "Swimming should be out of the question as that would recycle the Lemming" the Lemming should NOT behave after 2.) as that would be the exact reaction of a swimmer in water, therefore impling that he briefly switched to swimming in order to interrupt the Oh-Noing to explode instantly.

5.) If the Lemming should not behave like a swimmer that therefore renders out swimming (after the basic assumption) and exploding (as that would imply that he switch to swimming), he should behave like every other Oh-Noing and simply drown, what would be consistant with 1.) on top of that: A oh-noing swimmer should not swim anymore, but again should be "eaten" by the water.

As a result, I would still go with b.) "Ohnoers always drown, even if they're swimmers", as this avoids new special cases where Oh-Noers can prematurely explode and does not have any kind of hint that the Lemmings was recycled from an Oh-Noer to a Swimmer, even if the Swimmer explodes instantly and does not swim. :)

I would say b) is the most logical case for me. An Oh-Noer uses his hands to explode --> therefore cannot swim if that makes sense.

a) seems very weird for me when they just fall through the water. This would be my least preferred case.

As a result this also seems like the bug for me:

Now, try assigning a swimmer to the ohno'er before they hit the water (you can't do this during the ohno, it must be done before assigning the bomber). Notice how instead of drowning (since swimmers can't drown), they continue falling to the bottom of the water, exploding when appropriate. This part, IMO, is fine.

Normally traps catch any type of falling Lemming regardles if he is a disarmer or oh-noer.

With the new update the pop up boxes where you choose files for example are not resizable anymore. With the very small standard size it is quite a hassle to select files in bigger folders now.

Also the style of the boxes seems to have changed from a small modern Windows Explorer to an old Win98 like selection window if that helps in any way to identify the problem. I even guess the change here is the main problem as there might be an option in the new Delphi to get an Explorer like window again.  Example on how they looked:

It would be nice if they are resizable again. :)

NeoLemmix Main / Re: NeoLemmix V12.6.2, Editor 1.13 Release
« on: August 19, 2019, 08:32:54 pm »
Is it normal that the "choose file" boxes are not resizable anymore? It is kinda really annoying that it is forced that they stay so small now. :(   (I had them quite large before the update to display more stuff at once)

In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: August 19, 2019, 01:49:09 pm »
I don't know how many levels the first rank, "Skills", is supposed to have eventually, or whether these are all already. If so, 12 is a weird number for Lemmings packs - I'd suggest going up to at least 20, maybe even the standard 30, and show a little more of skill interactions.

The number itself does not matter here. It could be 7 and when the rank teaches everything it wants to achieve it's fine. I will stay at 12 out of the reason Proxima stated: Don't exhaust the new player right of the get go. Imagine that: You want to learn Lemmings and see a 30 level first rank of new skills...yeah pass that. Instead the first ranks will only introduce the most basic uses of skills and the most basic interactions with objects and they will try to be as short as possible while covering the nessesary stuff. Later when providing training levels and examples of tricks you can have a larger rank.

Also the skill rank will not include skill interactions. Again, this is advanced stuff that comes later. After learning the basic uses of skills we should probably teach the player about steel, OWWs, teleporters, frame-stepping and other elemental things first. After all that is done I promise that the core skill interactions will be taught! ;)

To qoute your points one by one:

, that gliders interact with updrafts,

100% Object rank --> updraft introduction.

walkers can cancel skills

Advanced mechanic that can lead deep into the mechanics -> Training/Trick rank. Even if the blocker interaction is more basic, let's stay a bit more consistent and move the whole theme together.

that cloners copy skills

Again, this leads deep into the mechanics and is better taught later.

some skills just are too complex to point out everything they do in one level, I guess.

That's why I am not doing that. ;)

During the last few posts I see that some fall into the trap of wanting to explain everything about a topic at once. That would be counterproductive. You need a short introduction about the basic components first where only the basic uses of them are explained. Anything beyond comes later.  It is only problematic if the basic use is not explained properly.
I will continue with the "Interactables and Functions" rank next where I will go over Steel, Objects and helpful NL functions.
After that is done I move to the "Tricks and Training" rank where first some basic training levels will come up where the user can play around with a bunch of skills. Then all your interactions and tricks will be slowly trickled in. ;)

So, be patient and after the next level sets come out it all might get clearer. :)

V 7.6 is out! :)

The following levels have received a backroute fix:

- 5 28 (added some steel)

5 28 seems to be the biggest roadblock so far. Only 2 fixes needed until this point, but the intended solution still remains hidden. ;)

In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: August 18, 2019, 07:02:49 pm »
Thanks for the replays. :)

Looks good so far! For the most part the skill combinations make sense, but there is one that I think could use a little reconsideration: walkers and cloners, in my opinion, didn't really demonstrate the behavior of either skill very well, which could result in the player having forgotten the information about each skill presented in the text by the time a level requests them to make use of it. Show, don't tell, after all.

Behaviors of cloners not demonstrated:
 - Skill continues after use.
Behaviors of walkers not demonstrated:
 - Cancels skill in use.
 - Can be assigned to blockers.

I've attached replays.

All of these will be covered in the rank that shows tricks and advanced uses. The level in the skill rank only covers the most basic behavior of the skill. Combinations with other skills will come later.

Releasing blockers will be a major theme and walkers is among the first options to show. Also canceling skills (basher staircases in particular) will be another big theme.

Cloning several active skills (miners,builders,stackers) is also a topic on it's own. Getting all of this into the Cloner introduction level would be overkill, you could even argue that I should not mention the extra uses until later on.

NeoLemmix Tutorials / Re: The NeoLemmix Manual
« on: August 18, 2019, 11:07:53 am »
This will be updated at some point in the future.

First I will finish the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack though, as I think this is still the best tutorial option. ;)

Also there are still some changes to features in NeoLemmix right now and I don't want to change text back and forth. So it is better to let everything stabalize itself first.

In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: August 18, 2019, 11:04:53 am »
Thanks again for the feedback! :thumbsup:

V 0.03 is out!

- Swapped level 4 and 5 so that the intro text for the shimmier/climber level has the introduction to splat falls.
- Reworked the shimmier/climber level so that there is a clear situation where the climber hit their heads.
- Reworded the text in the builder/platformer level.
- Reworded the text in the nuke level, so that it specifically says double-click the nuke button.

General - some of the preview texts seem really compressed into the middle of the screen, with not much vertical spacing between paragraphs. Each line can be up to 40 characters iirc.

For the shorter texts, I think what you've done with splitting them up into a larger number of shorter lines is actually a good thing. The font used isn't very readable in long paragraphs, but having shorter lines helps make it a lot friendlier.

I am with Proxima here with the fact that shorter lines are better to read. It is also very hard to word the text in the level file without instant visualisation on how it will actually look. The texts often took longer to make than the level! :P

I noted some small issues with the intro texts as I was going along, so when I have time I'll look through them again and make a detailed post. I also think some of them (especially the first) may be too wordy and this may be a bit tricky for new players to take in all the information. It may be a good idea to think about what's really important to say and what can be left for the player to infer.

I tried to be as short as possible and I think the information there is nessesary to give. If you can compress the texts more though (and test if they can indeed be displayed in NL), write them in here and I can include them. I am not a very great writer and displaying information in as little words as possible can be very tricky.

, you mention the 64-pixel splat height, but users won't be happy about counting pixels, so the splat ruler should really be introduced here.

The exact splat ruler will have a dedicated level where there will be some close calls. But if you want I can now just say "they splat if they fall too high distances" and give the exact definition later in the splat ruler level. The cases here should be clear so that just a fall warning should be enough.

In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: August 17, 2019, 10:46:29 pm »
Thanks for the feedback.

Two levels (2 and 11) I can't play though, because of a missing "flame_deco" piece in the Marble tileset?

Oh yes, these tiles were non-standard special tiles. I've removed them from the levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That is more advanced stuff that would go into the last rank where I go into some basic tricks. In this rank only the basics are taught.

In the climber-shimmier level, you call both of them permanent skills. Shimmiers aren't permanent skills, though ;) .

Yeah, I screwed up there. :XD: I've corrected the text.

And with that:

V 0.02 is out!

- Removed the non-standard tiles.
- Reworked the introduction text of the stoner/stacker level.

In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: August 17, 2019, 09:49:32 pm »
I've finished the skill introduction rank and added a download link of the first beta version of the pack to the main post. :)

I am especially unsure about the pre-level texts. If you find any spelling errors, point them out to me.

I appreciate all kinds of feedback! :)

NeoLemmix Main / Re: NeoLemmix V12.6.1 Release
« on: August 17, 2019, 02:44:23 pm »
I'm just in the middle of downloading all the styles for 12.6.1. It's too loooong. :sick: I wonder if it's possible to reduce the size and thus, the length of the download. One possibility maybe is to only include the official graphic sets, and put all the custom ones in a separate thread.

I think we are past the point where the original ones are enough. Seperate downloads will only result in the reappearance of posts and topics of the type: "I am getting this error that this file is missing". And we link the full styles download.

If NL can fetch missing styles automatically from the site in-game when it notices missing ones then I would consider this a good option. How long does the download take for you btw? I just tested it and it is <10 secs for me.

Closed / Re: [Bug][Editor] Inconsistent naming bomber / exploder
« on: August 17, 2019, 02:33:46 pm »
I am also in for Exploder, as it is more precise in the fact that no bomb is involved here.

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