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Messages - IchoTolot

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The 2nd round is up. :)

Total number of levels: 48

Group 1

WillLem's "Lemmina City Steel Facility"
Armani's "Breaking the Cycle"
DireKrow's "Shoestring Operation"
David's "Lavomatique"
Mantha16's "What a Marbleous Job"
Strato Incendus's "The puzzle"
Gronkling's "Coypu: Hold It Together!"
IchoTolot's "Tribute To V"

Group 2

WillLem's "Custom built for Lemmings"
Armani's "Polaris Rhapsody"
Ron Stard's "End of quarantine"
GigaLem's "A Year in ruin"
Flopsy's "The Birth of Creativity"
Strato Incendus's "You keep me hangin' on"
Gronkling's "Pacarana: Crystallisers"
IchoTolot's "Victory Lap"

Group 3

Armani's "NeoLemtris"
Turrican's "Dockside Warehouse"
Nessy's "All The Right Moves!"
Colorful Arty's "The sea"
GigaLem's "Miracle on Ian Avenue"
Strato Incendus's "Clockworks"
IchoTolot's "Night Of The Living Lems"

Group 4

WillLem's "Backroute To The Future"
Armani's "Secretly, Greatly!"
Duuddu's "Godlems"
Ron Stard's "No time for a spa"
Colorful Arty's "Minimalism"
Nessy's "Send Us An Angel"
IchoTolot's "I'm Loving This Circus!"
IchoTolot's "Checkerboard's Crossing"

Group 5

WillLem's "With a Twist of Lemmina Please"
Armani's "Marina Bay Sands"
DireKrow's "Abyssal Descent"
David's "Le mur de briques"
Colorful Arty's "Journey to Futility"
Strato Incendus's "Symphony of destruction"
Gronkling's "Lemming: Sticky Situation"
IchoTolot's "Temple Of Escher"

Group 6

WillLem's "Soda Streams"
Armani's "The Gaema Plateau"
NieSch's "Step Up Your Game"
David's "Soucoupes violentes"
Flopsy's "More Toys in the Attic"
Mantha16's "Alas Poor Doric"
Gronkling's "Mara: Molten Steel Works"
IchoTolot's "Highlights With A Safety Net"

Welcome to the Level of the Year 2020 voteoff!

So, most of you will know how this works, but just in case - and so that specifics are covered - here's a quick rundown.

The 48 nominated levels have been divided into 6 groups of 8 levels, semi-randomly. To be specific, the division was done in such a way that a single author wouldn't have too many levels in a single group.

Each group will be voted on one at a time, with only 3 levels from each group advancing to Phase 2. We try to bring the number down to 3 in 1 single Round. I plan no tiebreakers for this and if we have a minor tie then all tied levels advance. In case of a lot of major ties (5or6+ levels), I might run a tiebreaker later.

If we then have a bit more than 18 levels in phase 2, these will be split up into 3-4 groups for phase 2. There, I also plan to just let 2-3 of each group survive with no tiebreakers if possible. Only in the final phase I plan to enforce placements with tiebreakers.

If you want to see the full list of nominated levels in non-randomized order, check the nominations list topic.
If you want to play these levels without having to dig up all the various level packs, check the playing phase topic which has an NXP available for download that contains all the nominated levels.

Please remember that discussing the nominated levels is not allowed in the LOTY2020 topics now that voting has begun. This does not apply to levels that have already been eliminated at the time. Discussing them elsewhere in the site is okay, as long as it's not in the context of LOTY2020.

Contests / Lemmings Forums Level Contest #22 - Results
« on: May 08, 2021, 08:21:00 PM »
Ladies and gentleman, we've got our final results! :)

The winning level is:

"Childhood Dreams"

Congratulations to Armani for winning the contest! :thumbsup:

Congratulation to Nessy as well as he reached the 2nd place with:

"A Rock And A Hard Place"

Choice for the prize for the first place is either:

- a month's advertising on the forum's news ticker
- picking the next contest's rules
- US $5.00 (PayPal would be the easiest here I think).

What about replacing "Advanced" with "Harder" ???

"Harder" is clearly more difficult than hard and I would argue clearly lower than "Extreme".

Contests / Re: Level of the Year 2020: Playing Phase
« on: May 05, 2021, 03:08:04 PM »
Expect the voting phase to kick-off sometime during the weekend (hopefully :P).

I now got the picture links from Nessy and still need to create groups, make the topic etc.

Just a quick info on the current status. ;)

Finals are up! :)

Now another post about level difficulty and why you cant simply put a graph on it.

From my experience the following holds true: For a good evaluation on a packs difficulty you won't get around having veteran users play the pack!

Simply saying if we have many skills and most/all of them have to be uses = hard level does not reflect the nature of levels.

Of course there are quite a few cases where this indeed fits, but you still would have too many exceptions.

I have seen many cases like that, where the majority of skill assignments (even if they were many) are crystal clear. Like if you have a gap with no terrain around it a builder has to go there and you have a skill that is 100% locked in place. Like that levels can get easy very fast if a lot of the skills are effectively locked in place.

Lemmings is PSPACE-complete ( and it is very hard to judge its difficulty on easy countable variables. Let's just say you can programm chess computers, but a computer solving all kinds of lemming levels is a far distant dream if not even impossible.

A better approach would be using more vague but also more fitting terms like "entropy".

As I would double post my exaplanations, here I will simply link an older topic where we already discussed the matter:

My first post in there describes the terminology.

We also had another topic discussion the option to reduce said entropy:

As said term is hard to grasp the best difficulty evaluation is to have some experienced players go through the packs and judge their difficulty. Also, more experienced pack authors who played and solved many levels are more likely to judge the pack's difficulty closer to the experienced difficulty by the user from my experience.

Just to be clear:

My main problem in the pack topics was mostly that the scale here was already seen as 100% forum wide accepted and other users who were not part of the discussion were already told "Hey this is what we use!" despite no great forum wide agreement!

What do people think about the idea of representing the various stages of difficult as numbers (or letters)?

So, the above scale could be represented thus:

1 - Beginner
2 - Easy
3 - Medium
4 - Hard
5 - Advanced
6 - Extreme

That way, packs could be labelled [Difficulty: 1-4] or [Difficulty: 5-6]

I'm not sure how I feel about this idea. I think I'm suggesting it on the grounds that it would save space in the topic title whilst indicating the range of difficulty presented by the pack, but words are always more helpful, particularly if someone isn't familiar with the suggested scale.

This was the last post before the advertisement campaign through new pack topics began!

I highly veto against making it already marked as widely accepted at this point!

But back to the problem at hand:

1.) If we come to a scale widely accepted: I think it's best to use moderator powers to roll out the scale widely and base the rating on author+user experience. Packs already rated for a long time should receive the same/similar rating if no big objections in some cases are made.

2.) My problem with the currently suggested scale: The advanced case. What is advanced? It is more unclear than you think! It could come just after medium and before hard for example (from here on you need more "advanced" stuff).
We need a term that is crytal clear here! To adjust the scale another rank is needed. We could add one between "hard" and "extreme", but alse between "medium" and "hard" could work. We just need a term that is crystal clear in its meaning so that every user can see right away where it stands in the scale without seeing the whole scale before. "Advanced" does not achieve this.

3.) Just using plain number like the suggested 1-4 for example does not have much information value. New players don't know the scope of the scale or if 4 still means easy. And no, they won't likely read the topic for the scale even if it's pinned! That's why we need clear terminology!

Seems like we need a little tiebreaker to determine the 2nd level in the finals. :)

Take a look at this scale to get an idea of what the community have agreed on as an appropriate indication of a pack's difficulty. Since the "Easy" levels that I've seen in your pack thus far generally only have a single intended solution (and only just enough skills to execute that solution), they're probably further towards "Medium" or "Hard".

Wait, wait. Since when have we all agreed on that scale! Nowhere are terms like "Advanced" used anywhere on the board!

We already have a non-documented but widely used scale with what you currently see in the "NL levels" board: Esay - Medium - Hard - Extreme!

Also, "Number of skills" and "Number of assignments" are not very good indicators of difficulty to be honest.

"Required Tricks" and "Entropy" are better indicators there even if you can't simply put a number on them.

Lix Main / Re: Feature idea: NPC Lix
« on: April 28, 2021, 03:30:53 PM »
Seems like you exactly thought of NeoLemmix's neutral lemmings. ;P

I would speak out my support for them in Lix! :lix-smile:

In NeoLemmix they are represented by grey lemmings. In Lix multiplayer though grey is a choosable player color. Maybe add more colors for MP and make grey dedicated for NPC Lix/neutral Lix? ???

Semi-finals is up! :)

NeoLemmix Levels / Re: BadLems pack
« on: April 25, 2021, 01:39:57 PM »
Here are my solutions. :)

There should be some backroutes.

I would agree with Gronkling as I think the pack is not too hard and the biggest improvement would be the visual departement.

Also, a few level just had too many lemmings for their own good. If the level is already finished and there are still like 20 lemmings inside the hatch it's a good sign that that number could be a little bit lower.

The biggest thing I found was as I noticed that in a new level my replay for the last level started playing:

- Most levels levels share the same level ID!  

You can still change the level ID inside the editor by loading the level, clicking on the "Random ID" button in the "Global" tab and saving it.

If you create a new level always click on new level in the editor and be sure you get a new ID!

If all levels have more or less the same idea the replay system can get really messy.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: Only-On-Terrain will be deprecated as of V12.12
« on: April 24, 2021, 02:15:41 PM »
I think we should start "gather" objects in released tilesets that are meant to work especially with "only on terrain" and update them accordingly to the Paint type over time.

For this maybe a list in the first post where we gather the findings would be a good idea. ???

Right out of my mind I would call out the 2 different animated windows from the L2 shadow tileset.

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