Poll

What shape should the Ladderer's "ladder" be?

45 degree staircase (as it is currently)
1 (25%)
45 degree slope (Shimmier-friendly)
2 (50%)
Some other shape (please specify in a comment)
0 (0%)
I don't mind
1 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: August 04, 2023, 12:09:48 AM

Author Topic: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]  (Read 1788 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« on: July 10, 2023, 10:18:39 AM »
From this topic:

Quote from: Strato Incendus
Sand Pourer, Glue Pourer, Filler: I’ve always found the Glue Pourer the most versatile of these three, since it can act as a Filler and a Platformer, depending on the terrain. If there’s some predictable way in which the Glue could be made to “pile up”, the Sand Pourer’s uses could be implemented in the same skill.
In short: I think there should only be one of these three. But in order to be considered worthy of inclusion, it would probably have to be at least versatile enough to feature aspects of all three of these skills.
---
In the past, we contemplated the idea of the Roper being used as a downward Builder, specifically. Meaning, it should not be able to aim upwards, as it can in L2: The Tribes.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 12:08:27 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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I like the idea of a pouring skill, and the Glue Pourer is definitely the most useful from L2.

We could also benefit from a downwards-Builder, but with the Roper having been established in L2 as an "any direction" skill, I wouldn't want to nerf it for use in SLX. So, the question here would be - do we want the Roper, or do we want a downwards-Builder? If the former, then it would become the first and only skill in SLX to be mouse-point-controlled, which would be a huge challenge (but not out of the question).

If the latter, then perhaps we can merge these two ideas into one skill: the Pourer's liquid could have an always-diagonally-downwards trajectory, essentially creating a slide/ramp of terrain.

Support for this idea? Thoughts? Suggestions?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 11:44:25 AM by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Quote from: WillLem
If the latter, then perhaps we can merge these two ideas into one skill: the Pourer's liquid could have an always-diagonally-downwards trajectory, essentially creating a slide/ramp of terrain.

Ooohhh… another great idea I had never thought of! :lem-mindblown:
Almost seems like our go-to fix to make any L2 skill more useful is “make it diagonal!” :thumbsup:

As I’ve outlined in the parallel thread, my exception to this just-invented principle of making a skill more versatile would be the vertical Digger (Twister). Since we already have to diagonally upwards-moving destructive skills.

But a downward Builder is indeed something we’re still sorely lacking. You can only go up (with a Builder) or remain flat (with a Platformer). Of course, there is the Freezer (former Stoner), but they are notorious for creating backroutes, especially when it comes to breaking large falls.

Much like I enjoyed using Fencers to create inverted Miner puzzles (think “Postcard from Lemmingland” from below), the downward Builder could flip another prominent level archetype on its head:
Rather than sending a lemming down (with a Floater / Glider) and then building / platforming from below to break the fall, you could send a lemming up (with a Climber / Glider / Shimmier / Jumper, possibly Ballooner / Twister), and then build (=pour) a path downward. We could group these types of levels into the category “Rapunzel levels”. ^^
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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As I’ve outlined in the parallel thread, my exception to this just-invented principle of making a skill more versatile would be the vertical Digger (Twister). Since we already have two diagonally upwards-moving destructive skills.

To be honest, I'm thinking... swap the Laserer to vertically-upwards, then replace the Fencer with the Twister (which would do exactly what the Laserer currently does, but with the difference that it sends the lem up the tunnel).

Or, to keep things simple, just implement the vertical Laserer and have both Laserer types in the same game! (Maybe not, actually...)

But a downward Builder is indeed something we’re still sorely lacking ... Of course, there is the Freezer (former Stoner), but they are notorious for creating backroutes, especially when it comes to breaking large falls.

We're not worried about backroutes in SuperLemmix - that's a challenge for the level designer to overcome! ;P

you could send a lemming up (with a Climber / Glider / Shimmier / Jumper, possibly Ballooner / Twister), and then build (=pour) a path downward. We could group these types of levels into the category “Rapunzel levels”. ^^

Haha, nice idea :thumbsup:

Offline Strato Incendus

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I see little benefit in changing the existing Laserer to a vertical skill — aside from the continuing (to me worrying) trend of messing with several established skills. I don’t think SuperLemmix needs to do this in order to set itself further apart from NeoLemmix — the mere fact that SuperLemmix might have MORE skills (with the Spearer and Grenader already being exclusive to it) will be enough.

If we proceed to give other skills the Stoner-to-Freezer treatment (as you’ve already brought it up for Walkers, Laserers, and Fencers now), casual shifts back and forth between NeoLemmix and SuperLemmix will become harder and harder. Rather than lots of players using both engines, this will ultimately result in a split between dedicated NeoLemmix and SuperLemmix communities. (And it pains me to say that I would probably find myself on the NeoLemmix side, in such a hypothetical case.)



But to move away from this general “SLX quo vadis?” question, and back to the Laserer, specifically:

The diagonal Laserer has neat interactions with the Shimmier, from being able to stop them (by shooting from the opposite direction) to carving tunnels while the Shimmier is already in motion (by shooting in the same direction as the Shimmier is moving). The range is also an important feature here, since the Laserer can reach the ceiling easily.

A diagonal Twister would not accomplish the same thing, since it would have to be similarly close to the ceiling already as a Shimmier trying to hold on to it. If you have to build up to the ceiling first, then launch a Twister to carve out the tunnel, and then start a Shimmier from the top of the staircase, that’s a lot more effort than creating the tunnel with the Laserer, and then sending a Climber / Jumper up from elsewhere. Also, the extra Builders required to get the Twister close to a high ceiling are likely to break the level, with the Builder being one of the most powerful and versatile skills.

Why are we discussing this in the Pourer thread, though? :evil: I only made a side-remark about the Twister here. My point was about the unique utility of having a downward Builder at our disposal. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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I see little benefit in changing the existing Laserer to a vertical skill
---
Why are we discussing this in the Pourer thread, though?

OK, I seem to have created a bit of unnecessary concern here. Let's agree we'll leave the Laserer as it is, not switch it to vertical. I've outlined a new idea for the "Twister/Propeller" here which I think would work great as a vertically-oriented skill.

And yes, let's keep non-Pourer discussion out of this topic. It's very easy to get crossed wires when there are so many things being discussed at the same time. Apologies for any confusion.

And again - to be very clear - none of the current discussions are confirmation that anything will change, and I'll always announce any upcoming changes (and accepted suggestions) very clearly in this topic, so that they can be discussed further before actual implementation. I've revoked several ideas so far as a result of Forum feedback, so there needn't be any concern that I'll just change things randomly and without notice.

Offline jkapp76

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Here's the glue-pourer in action.

It fills gaps, but will need modded to make downward walkways.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2023, 02:44:36 PM »
I have to be realistic about this - as much as I like the idea, figuring out how to program the "poured stuff" is a bit beyond what I'm prepared to attempt on my own without help.

So, let's focus instead on simply a way of getting a "downwards Builder" - i.e. a slope/ramp/staircase of terrain that orients diagonally downwards from the point of origin.

I propose, then, the "Ladderer".

What I imagine is that this lemming will take out a stack of bricks that will "cascade" downwards, similar to a Jacob's Ladder toy, to form a staircase:





Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 02:54:15 PM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2023, 04:30:41 PM »
I like this more than the liquid stairs.

This is the only version I can really get a grip of. You should be able to use some already-existing art from stackers/builders too.

My last house had a pull-down attic ladder like this so I can relate to the name ladderer.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2023, 04:51:23 PM »
Looks like you’re great at coming up with unique but straightforward skill names! :thumbsup:
(I’m saying that because I like the propeller idea for the Twister, too.)

The only caveat with both is that turning them into personified skill names doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily (“Ladder-rer”, “Propeller-rer” etc.). But then again, the “Laser-rer” has a similar problem. :evil:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2023, 06:56:49 PM »
The only caveat with both is that turning them into personified skill names doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily (“Ladder-rer”, “Propeller-rer” etc.). But then again, the “Laser-rer” has a similar problem. :evil:

"Propellerer" would just be "Propeller", in that they are a lem being propelled, or a propelling lem!

"Ladderer" isn't too bad, but yeah it does have the same problem as "Laserer." Maybe we ought to change it to "Laser Blaster" :shrug: (we still need that :shrug: Lemoji!)



Question regarding the Ladderer idea: what should happen when assigning a Cloner to a Ladderer?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023, 04:31:44 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2023, 04:33:30 AM »
OK, so having decided to shelve the Runner, this one seems like the best idea to concentrate on for now. I'll have a look at it over the next few days :thumbsup:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2023, 08:37:58 AM »
Great, thanks a lot, WillLem! :thumbsup:

I’ve been thinking about the Ladderer a few days ago, because I realised the specific skill interactions that would be possible in SuperLemmix, due to it already having the Spearer and Grenader.

For example, a lemming could jump into the niche created by a Grenader, or onto a spear sticking in a wall, turn around and create a ladder from there. If we already have the Ballooner at that point, flying up a non-Climber-friendly section (be it due to gaps and/or non-straight walls) and then turning around to ladder from the top would also be a thing.

Other interactions that would also have been possible in NeoLemmix are laddering down from a Laserer tunnel, or from on top of a Freezer (Stoner). We might also see zig-zag bridges, built by combining Builders and Ladderers, and/or Platformers.

When creating ladders from the end of tunnels created by destructive skills, interactions with the Miner might end up being the most common.
Due to the angular shape of the steps, it looks like there won’t be any “make skills go through” interactions, like with Builder/Miner and Builder/Fencer. But I’m not sure we’d need those for the Ladderer anyway.

With regards to the sprites, I would prefer the one on the right, where the steps are laid down from the top, rather than “swinging into position” from below.



PS: Since the Runner thread is locked now, I just wanted to clear up what I meant with “on an unrelated note” ;)

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My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2023, 04:06:37 PM »
With regards to the sprites, I would prefer the one on the right, where the steps are laid down from the top, rather than “swinging into position” from below.

You've misunderstood here. The two aren't separate sprites, these show how the bricks will cascade out from a single starting point to form the full "Ladder" - like a Jacob's Ladder toy (see linked video in the same post).

We’ve moved pretty quickly from “let’s go back from the Hoverboarder to the Runner” to “drop the Runner entirely”, so that nobody had time to respond in between. ;)

Yes, I do move quickly on things and I apologise if anyone feels like they didn't have a chance to get involved with the final decision regarding the Runner, but I felt the whole thing had run its course (pun intended). I've been trying more recently to leave at least 24 hours between posting something and checking for replies, but I do tend to make decisions fairly quickly, and - what's more often the case - the decision is made for me by some aspect of a feature's development.

Some features warrant a bit more tenacity - for example, the current proposal to allow airborne Spears to interact with Zombies and Ballooners is something I think is worth taking the time to explore and overcome any issues which arise. The Runner/Hoverboarder, by contrast, never really felt like it was worth the effort I was putting into it and was constantly generating bugs and unanswerable questions. So, it had to go.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer"
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2023, 05:17:05 PM »
Yes, I watched that Jacob’s Ladder video; I just didn’t fully realise how exactly it applied to the skill in motion.

So now I guess the frame where the brick swings into position from below refers to the vertical bricks of the ladder, whereas the bricks that swing into place from above are the horizontal bricks? ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels