[?][SUG] Potentially useful L2-The Tribes skills / features for SuperLemmix

[Strato Incendus]

This is the type of thread that we'd no longer dare to open for NeoLemmix — but I must admit I also look forward to having stable and reliable physics in that engine, with the certainty that there won't be any further changes.

In SuperLemmix, meanwhile, not only are physics changes still pending (like the behaviour of the Shimmier), but new objects are still being introduced, too — or at least, their potential introduction is still being discussed.

While this makes me hesitate to create levels for SuperLemmix as long as future core physics changes to established skills / objects are likely (such as the Shimmier), it also looks like an opportunity to go back to the drawing board and wonder which of the skills we formerly considered for NeoLemmix might be suitable for SuperLemmix. Especially given the different philosophy SuperLemmix is moving towards.

And what better place to start out than with the Lemmings 2: The Tribes skills?
A game notorious for its execution difficulty might be a valuable source for an engine like SuperLemmix, that deliberately brings some execution difficulty back into the mix. The crucial point is of course not to overdo it.



For that reason, I would personally not advocate for any of the skills that rely on the fan in Lemmings 2: The Tribes.
Or instead, if they should be considered for NeoLemmix, then in some altered version that no longer requires the fan.

Wind Skills

Ballooner: This one might be interesting without the fan, since it can get up vertical obstacles that the Climber cannot pass. It would require an automatic move into the direction the lemming is currently walking, though, once it finishes. Alternatively, perhaps it could be implemented as an upward Glider, moving diagonally upwards as soon as it is assigned. This would also fit with the NeoLemmix / SuperLemmix version of the Laserer, which is diagonal, too — while L2s Laser Blaster is vertical.

Magic Carpet: This might qualify as an upward Glider, too. Or as a strictly horizontal "Flier" skill.

Jet Pack: Unless it's implemented like one of the two skills described above, I see no way of using this without the fan. Therefore, a big no from me.

Twister: In L2, this is the main skill for digging diagonally upwards. We already have two ways to do that in SuperLemmix: The Fencer and the Laserer. The only use I could therefore still see for the Twister is the previously discussed idea of an upward Digger. Again, this would require the lemming to move into the direction it is facing, once the skill has been completed. Otherwise, the lemming will fall down its own shaft, and most likely splat in the process.

Surfer: We have previously discussed the utility of "one-time use" skills, which can create an interesting restriction to design levels around. Much like the "non-permanent skills" gimmick used to do, in NeoLemmix 1.43, where Climbers / Floaters etc. would lose their skills after a single use. The Surfer would be a non-permanent Swimmer. Alternatively, the same role could be given to the Kayaker. Obviously, that makes the respective other skill redundant. So if we decide we might want this, there should only be either the Surfer OR the Kayaker.
Note that neither the Surfer nor the Kayaker would be able to dive, which is a mechanic that does come up with Swimmers every now and then.

Parachuter: A Floater that can be moved by the fan, with no added benefits. So no, I don't think we need this one.

Hang Glider: We have the Glider, so this one is superfluous, too.

Icarus Wings: Again, I can imagine this being a stand-in for some generic "flyer" skill — moving either upwards or horizontally. If considered, it should have a predictable trajectory. Even with that, it might be overpowered.



Honourable Mention: The Hoverboarder
This was a skill we briefly considered in NeoLemmix, as a similar thing to the Spearer: The lemming can fly through the air on his own hoverboard, but the hoverboard will stick in a wall like a Spearer's projectile. There is obviously some overlap with the Surfer, here, too.

With destructive skills, there are some redundant ones, too:

Destructive Skills

Scooper: A slightly steeper Miner, no need for that.
Club Basher: A Basher that creates a slightly higher tunnel, superfluous.
Stomper: I still haven't found the difference to the Digger to this day, so a big no.

Flame Thrower: This one is a little more interesting, in that it has a fixed area of destruction, much like the Bomber or Grenader. Plus, it's non-lethal. Without the Grenader, this might have been worth considering. But given that you can still use a Grenader when standing right in front of a wall, in order to create a fixed crater without losing a lemming, the Grenader can probably accomplish most things the Flame Thrower could do, and then some.

Laser Blaster: Referring to the "upward Digger" idea here again. If we decide we could use an upward Digger in SuperLemmix, it should probably be called something different, so that the Laserer remains the way it is. And then we might as well go with a vertical Twister, as described above.

Essentially, that would mean Laserer and Twister swap roles from L2 to SuperLemmix:
- The Laserer is vertical in L2, diagonal in SuperLemmix.
- The Twister often goes diagonally in L2, but might be useful as a vertical skill in SuperLemmix.

For the constructive skills, most of them have already found their way into NeoLemmix, with three notable exceptions:

The Pourer Skills

Sand Pourer, Glue Pourer, Filler: I've always found the Glue Pourer the most versatile of these three, since it can act as a Filler and a Platformer, depending on the terrain. If there's some predictable way in which the Glue could be made to "pile up", the Sand Pourer's uses could be implemented in the same skill.
In short: I think there should only be one of these three. But in order to be considered worthy of inclusion, it would probably have to be at least versatile enough to feature aspects of all three of these skills.

As for the L2 Stacker, I admit I always liked the idea of a lemming rising WITH the stack he builds. Especially now that we have Jumpers / Shimmiers / Walkers, to cancel such a Stacker anytime. Since the Stacker already exists in NeoLemmix / SuperLemmix, if a skill like the L2 Stacker should ever be considered, it would have to be named differently. "Tower Builder" or something.

Conversely, the L2 Planter essentially does what the NL / SL Stacker does. The problem with the Planter is that it works differently when facing to the left than when facing to the right, so the Planter gets a no from me.

With regards to the Shooting Skills, these are currently a unique feature of SuperLemmix over NeoLemmix:

Projectile Skills

The Spearer also covers the use of the Thrower, and some applications of the Archer.

The Grenader is basically SuperLemmix's version of the Bazooka (coincidentally, the two most frequently used weapons in the "Worms" games ^^, with both Worms and Lemmings belonging to Team 17 currently). The Mortar's use can also be covered by the Grenader.

That esentially only leaves the Roper worth considering. In the past, we contemplated the idea of the Roper being used as a downward Builder, specifically. Meaning, it should not be able to aim upwards, as it can in L2: The Tribes.

For the movement skills, some have been previously discussed for NeoLemmix already. The Jumper, Shimmier, and Slider were all taken directly from Lemmings 2, setting a good precedent here.

Spoiler

The Runner: It already exists in Lix, and the only reason it doesn't in NeoLemmix is that it tends to add execution difficulty where the NeoLemmix player wants none. For SuperLemmix, though? It seems tailor-made!

Skier / Skater: This is a really fringe skill and borders on "joke" for me. However, now that WillLem has started creating alternative water objects, such as Poison, who says that "Ice" (as it exists in L2 or perhaps Lemmings 3D) is ruled out?

Pole Vaulter: Another interesting way of overcoming non-Climber-friendly obstacles, that are also too high for the Jumper. It would probably require a skill shadow to show the lemming's trajectory, like for the Jumper.

Rock Climber: Another fringe skill. With the Dangler state already implemented in SuperLemmix, plus the Shimmier being able to move up 45° slopes (which it can't in L2), there is little extra benefit for the Rock Climber. The Rock Climber would go up even steeper slopes than the Shimmier, of course — and it would be facing the other direction while doing so.
The only thing that both Climbers and Rock Climbers can do in L2, which they can't do in NeoLemmix, is to transition from a Shimmier back into a Climber, i.e. go around an upward corner.
The interesting challenge with this is that it tends to be much harder to contain a Rock Climber than a regular Climber. Especially interesting with pre-assigned hatches. Try containing an entire crowd of Rock Climbers, because they go over almost anything!
That's something that can't happen in L2, since there are no pre-assigned skills there.
So it would be an interesting interaction in a NeoLemmix-based engine, like SuperLemmix.

Diver: Basically just a fancy Jumper, if implemented as in L2. What would be a lot more interesting, though, is if it could be assigned to a Swimmer to make him go down in a water pond, without requiring a ceiling of terrain to do so.

Attractor: This is basically just L2's Blocker in all tribes except Classic. So I don't really see any extra benefit.

SuperLem: The only skill that directly follows your mouse. Yes, it does add execution difficulty without requiring the fan. But if a player is good at handling this, especially with pausing / framestepping etc., it can single-handedly break a lot of levels, I would assume. Probably too overpowered. Keep in mind it can also be used like a Walker / Jumper / Shimmier to cancel other skills. That alone is enough to make Walkers one of the most powerful skills.

Magno Booter: This is one we previously discussed for NeoLemmix. It would probably be hard to code, though. Especially if, for added utility, it would work like the gravity-reversal objects in Lemmings Revolutoin, where Magno Booters could build / platform / stack / mine / fence / dig / laser-blast upside down.

Kayaker: See what I said above about the Surfer.

Hopper / Roller: These are really odd, in that they permanently alter the way a lemming moves through the level. While the same is true for the Runner, the Runner is just faster and jumps a little wider, which is easy to predict. With the Hopper and Roller, you never know where they're gonna bump their heads, jump a little too wide and fall down a cliff, etc. So these two get a no from me.

Finally, the Wiki page from the Lemmings Fandom also lists three more skills I've never heard of:
- the "User" (what does this even do?), from the PC MS-DOS Demo
- Magic Bridge
- Pyramider (the latter two are from Sega Master System, Game Gear, and Game Boy)

I remember WillLem being one of the most active users on the "joke ideas for skills" threads I once created. So I hope he won't mind me at least bringing this up for consideration. While some L2 skills do look like jokes to me, the question of whether we might want to cherry-pick a few more from among them for SuperLemmix is indeed meant as a serious one.



To conclude, I'd pick a few of my favourites:

- the Runner: already present in Lix, and should be comparatively easy to implement
- the Roper and the Twister: downward Builder and upward Digger, respectively. These are the only directions of movements still missing for constructive and destructive skills, as far as I am aware.
- Ballooner or Pole Vaulter: something to overcome those pesky not-Climber friendly obstacles that are way too high for a Jumper or single Builder
- the Glue Pourer: the most versatile one of the Pourer skills
- the Magno Booter: probably the one with the most versatility, especially if it's a permanent skill that can start using other skills upside down (which it can't in L2: The Tribes). Probably the hardest to implement, though.



PS: L2: The Tribes also has trampolines. With the reintroduction of Radiation and Slowfreeze being discussed (=objects that assign Bombers and Freezers), I could see a trapoline acting as an object that turns a lemming into a Jumper, but only if he falls onto it from above. It would also prevent splatting, like an anti-splat pad or updraft. To simplify things, the Jumper width could be independent of fall height (in contrast to Lemmings 3D / L2: The Tribes).

Then again, if the Runner is considered, that would already be a skill that alters the Jumper's range. So perhaps, these two questions should be discussed in context.



What are your thoughts?

[jkapp76]

I've narrowed this list down to my four favorites...


Magic Carpet: I like the idea of a glider-type that goes upward.

Twister: I can see some use for digging upward vertically.

The Runner: Having one lemming run ahead to perform skills seems great. And having a runner perform a higher jump would replace
the vaulter for sure.

Flame Thrower: I agree this is replaced by the grenader pretty well, but I would make this one very different.
I would recommend making the flame perform like the old ghost gimmick; the flame will turn around any lemming (or zombie) it hits.
The possibility of some projectile killing a zombie is also a cool idea idea, I've suggested that spears or grenades kill zombies before.

Trampolines could be a useful object type, just make the lemming jump when he lands on it and not splat.

[Floyd Brannon]

Here's my favorites. Some of these I've never actually seen in Lemmings 2, but sound fun.

Ballooner! This would be the best upward-vertical option I think. There is also lemmings artwork showing lemmings in balloons. A jetpack version is cool too.

Vertical laser? It might be nice to have the current laser have both directions. I thought the laser in Lemmings 2 allowed you to fire it in any direction. I know there's some weapon you can aim.

Magno-booter! C`mon, we all want this. We just don't expect to get it. I'm no programmer, but I think this would be best if it's temporary. Clicking the booter would begin a timer and cause the lemming to fall up. When the lemming hits the ceiling it can walk upside-down until the time runs out, then he falls. This would be the crown jewel of Super Lemmix skills.

[WillLem]

Excellent topic! Thanks for this one, Strato

Lots to reply to, so I've broken out some of the ideas into their own topics.

Note that, as of SLX 2.4, the Jumper now bounces and turns, as they do in L2 (I tested this before implementing the behaviour, and took it as something of a decision-making nudge when I realised this is how it's done in L2) - the point here being that I'm not averse to making skills act more like their L2 counterparts in general.

One more thing to note: none of my replies, or the individual topics created, are confirmation that any of these will happen. It's good to be discussing the ideas and exploring the possibilities, though

In SuperLemmix, meanwhile ... physics changes still pending (like the behaviour of the Shimmier)
---
this makes me hesitate to create levels for SuperLemmix as long as future core physics changes to established skills / objects are likely (such as the Shimmier)

Not sure if you've seen the latest post in this thread, but the future of the Shimmier is fairly solid now. I've added an extra pixel's grace for overhead checks (so they fall at 3px instead of 2px now) and this is unlikely to be reverted, but the proposal to have them turn when meeting a vertical wall is pretty much ruled out.

Ballooner: This one might be interesting without the fan, since it can get up vertical obstacles that the Climber cannot pass. It would require an automatic move into the direction the lemming is currently walking, though, once it finishes.

Replied to this here. Definitely a favourite.

Twister: ... The only use I could therefore still see for the Twister is the previously discussed idea of an upward Digger. Again, this would require the lemming to move into the direction it is facing, once the skill has been completed. Otherwise, the lemming will fall down its own shaft, and most likely splat in the process.

Replied to this here.

Surfer: ... The Surfer would be a non-permanent Swimmer.

Replied to this here.

I've always found the Glue Pourer the most versatile of these three

In the past, we contemplated the idea of the Roper being used as a downward Builder, specifically. Meaning, it should not be able to aim upwards, as it can in L2: The Tribes.

Replied to these here.

As for the L2 Stacker, I admit I always liked the idea of a lemming rising WITH the stack he builds

I'm 50/50 on this. Yes, it would make it easier to separate the stacking lem from the crowd, but currently having to add a Climber or Jumper into the mix to achieve this can make for some interesting and unique scenarios.

With that said, it may also help to reduce some of the Stacker's general fiddliness in this regard. A worthwhile suggestion, for sure.

The Runner: It already exists in Lix, and the only reason it doesn't in NeoLemmix is that it tends to add execution difficulty where the NeoLemmix player wants none. For SuperLemmix, though? It seems tailor-made!

Replied to this here. More of a challenge than you might think, this one. I do like the idea, though

Skier / Skater: now that WillLem has started creating alternative water objects ... who says that "Ice" ... is ruled out?

Yes, ice could automatically assign Freezers to non-Skaters, creating a way to block the crowd and get a lem ahead at the same time! Nice idea, this one.

Diver: Basically just a fancy Jumper, if implemented as in L2. What would be a lot more interesting, though, is if it could be assigned to a Swimmer to make him go down in a water pond, without requiring a ceiling of terrain to do so.

Replied to this here.

SuperLem: The only skill that directly follows your mouse.

Replied to this here.

I could see a trapoline acting as an object that turns a lemming into a Jumper, but only if he falls onto it from above. It would also prevent splatting, like an anti-splat pad or updraft.

Replied to this here.

Flame Thrower: ... I would recommend ... the flame will turn around any lemming (or zombie) it hits.

Replied to this here.

The possibility of some projectile killing a zombie is also a cool idea idea, I've suggested that spears or grenades kill zombies before.

Replied to this here.

Magno Booter: This is one we previously discussed for NeoLemmix. It would probably be hard to code, though. Especially if, for added utility, it would work like the gravity-reversal objects in Lemmings Revolutoin, where Magno Booters could build / platform / stack / mine / fence / dig / laser-blast upside down.

Magno-booter! ... I think this would be best if it's temporary

Replied to this here.

Overall, some brilliant ideas in this topic. Again, none of the replies are confirmation that anything will happen, I'm just enjoying the discussion at this point. If anyone wants to discuss any of these ideas further, please reply in the individual topics created (or if one doesn't exist then please create one), so that we can discuss them individually, rule out the ones that perhaps aren't worth the effort, and make more definitive plans for the ones that have the most support.

One thing I will state definitively at this point: SLX must always have an even number of skills. So, we either add one and lose one, or add two. And, I'd prefer not to go any higher than 28, which is double the current amount allowed by SLX's 14-wide skill panel.

[Floyd Brannon]

Here's a pic of all the L2 skills.

[jkapp76]

Here's a screenshot that actually includes every single
skill SLX has!

I admit though, I modified that laserer to fire diagonally to match SLX.

I figured someone out here might want to make an icon set from these some day.

*Edit I may or may not have created a couple of my own for completion sake...

[Strato Incendus]

Did you use the Club Basher to represent the Batter / Flinger there?

[jkapp76]

Yes, I figured the club basher had the most potential for the batter/flinger.

I also just added the freezer.  I fudged these last couple in just for fun.

[jkapp76]

I just played the Lemmings 2 Demo and noticed there's a couple additional skills.

There's one that looks just like a disarmer, so I updated the skills picture in the above post.

There's a skill called "User". Not sure what it does yet. It just Bonks like I can't use that here.

*Update: There are some objects in this game, like cannons and if you make a lemming a USER, he will light the fuse and jump in, firing himself through the air. That's what a User does.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for resolving this mystery, jkapp76! Indeed, I had also just heard about the User for the first time a few days ago, and also asked the question here on the forums what it does. Looks like, in the demo version of Lemmings 2: The Tribes, you still had to make lemmings manually use the various objects in the game - whereas in the final version of Lemmings 2: The Tribes, they use catapults, cannons etc. automatically if they just walk onto the trigger.

Finally, the Wiki page from the Lemmings Fandom also lists three more skills I've never heard of:
- the "User" (what does this even do?), from the PC MS-DOS Demo
- Magic Bridge
- Pyramider (the latter two are from Sega Master System, Game Gear, and Game Boy)

I assume you can't say anything about the Magic Bridge or Pyramider skills then, right? Because they only exist on the ports listed above?

[WillLem]

*Update: There are some objects in this game, like cannons and if you make a lemming a USER, he will light the fuse and jump in, firing himself through the air. That's what a User does.

Maybe it was supposed to be "Fuser"...?

Or, maybe it means "object user", and - as Strato mentioned - they later stopped this being a skill and just made it an action.

[jkapp76]

"Pyramider" is a skill that can be assigned to a lemming in the Game Boy and Game Gear ports of Lemmings 2: The Tribes. When assigned, the lemming places a triangle-shaped ramp on the ground which becomes part of the terrain. This can be used to help a lemming walk out of a shallow pit or reach a higher elevation. It serves as a replacement to the Filler and Sand Pourer skills due to the handheld devices limitations, but a lemming assigned a Pyramider skill will not turn around.

"The Magic Bridge" is a skill that can be given to a lemming in the Game Boy and Game Gear ports of Lemmings 2: The Tribes. When assigned, the lemming will place a single tile in front of him and immediately begin walking again. Meanwhile, the tile will extend over a considerable distance until it hits an obstacle or it has reached its maximum length. It is useful in closing off gaps and pits in the lemming's path. The skill behaves similarly to the port's version of the Roper but can only be fired horizontally in the direction the lemming was walking. This skill was meant to replace the Glue Pourer which could not be programmed into the games due to the handheld devices' limitations.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the explanation, potentially also for digging up this information!

So the two skills can be grouped as follows:
- Filler / Sand Pourer / Glue Pourer / Pyramider
- Platformer / Roper / Glue Pourer / Magic Bridge