Poll

What shape should the Ladderer's "ladder" be?

45 degree staircase (as it is currently)
1 (25%)
45 degree slope (Shimmier-friendly)
2 (50%)
Some other shape (please specify in a comment)
0 (0%)
I don't mind
1 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: August 04, 2023, 12:09:48 AM

Author Topic: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]  (Read 7868 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2023, 11:45:07 AM »
Great! :thumbsup: I'm looking forward to it!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2023, 03:03:27 PM »
Another video demo of the Ladderer in its new form, with 45-degree sloped ladder:



The above video shows the general assignability of the ladder on various different terrain shapes, the "end of ladder" checks to stop the skill action when the ladder has hit terrain, plus the Shimmier interaction.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 12:40:59 AM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2023, 03:22:52 PM »
I don't see anything about this that I don't like.

...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2023, 03:49:44 PM »
I don't see anything about this that I don't like.

Me too, I'm pretty stoked with how nicely this one has come together.

There are 2 things that need to be addressed:

1) The Ladderer currently stops when the end of the ladder hits terrain; they should also stop when hitting one-way-fields/Blockers. Turning wouldn't work unfortunately (for many reasons), but stopping seems appropriate.

2) Lems can currently ladder through existing ladders, Builder bridges and other thin diagonal platforms. Do we want this? Personally, I think it's desirable, but I can see a case for it not being so:



« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 10:07:30 PM by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2023, 08:06:37 PM »
Great job once again, WillLem! :thumbsup:

The nice irony is that, due to the low resolution of Lemmings games in general, the diagonal line still looks a little like a staircase, indeed, because one can still recognise "steps" in it. I don't think that's a problem - it just goes to show that there is little difference between a ladder and a diagonal rope in practice. Only the Platformer doesn't have this feature, since he creates a straight line.

Now we have an analogous symptom to the "longer step / brick" (the "a little bit further forward" part you mentioned) that we had with the angular ladder, where two consecutive ladders won't form one straight diagonal line, but there will be a slight horizontal shift instead. I don't think this is a problem either, since the resulting "ceiling" is flat, so several ladders in a row are still Shimmier-friendly in one piece. This probably just has to do with the starting position of the ladder.

The other point you raised is related to that, I assume:

Quote
2) Lems can currently ladder through existing ladders, Builder bridges and other thin diagonal platforms. Do we want this? Personally, I think it's desirable, but I can see a case for it not being so:

I've noticed something similar with the Laserer, who will not cut through a Builder staircase if assigned on the last pixel before stepping through the staircase. The reason for that is that he actually holds the cannon above the staircase, so it makes sense he can't shoot through it. A similar behaviour can be exploited in NeoLemmix by having a Shimmier jump through a low-hanging Platformer bridge (the Reacher state takes him above the bridge, so that he then lands on top of it).

So I don't think this is a problem either. In fact, it can be useful to connect Builder staircases and ladders in a zig-zag pattern. :thumbsup:

Quote
1) The Ladderer currently stops when the end of the ladder hits terrain; they should also stop when hitting one-way-fields/Blockers. Turning wouldn't work unfortunately (for many reasons), but stopping seems appropriate.

Ah, you mean that the terrain created by the Ladder can't be affected by Blockers and one-way fields? Makes sense, just like a Spearer's or Grenader's projectile can't be affected by them. One-way fields (which Blockers have on their hands) only affect lemmings themselves, at the end of the day.

However, what happens when you assign a Blocker in front of a Ladderer to turn the lemming himself around mid-performance?
Here I'd expect the same behaviour as when turning a Laserer with a Blocker mid-shooting (I just saw a NeoLemmix level on which this is required :D ). Meaning, the Ladderer would create the lower part of the ladder in the opposite direction - similar to what happens when you clone a Ladderer.



Also, I just want to say I like the skill panel icon!
:thumbsup: It's just a little strange to me that the downward staircase in the icon looks like a Builder staircase, i.e., more "step-like", and at a flatter angle. I assume this might just be a preliminary version of the icon, and the final version will have the actual angle the skill uses? ;) If not, I don't have a problem with it either - it might just be a little more confusing for new players.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2023, 10:42:25 PM »
I've noticed something similar with the Laserer, who will not cut through a Builder staircase if assigned on the last pixel before stepping through the staircase. The reason for that is that he actually holds the cannon above the staircase, so it makes sense he can't shoot through it. A similar behaviour can be exploited in NeoLemmix by having a Shimmier jump through a low-hanging Platformer bridge (the Reacher state takes him above the bridge, so that he then lands on top of it).

So I don't think this is a problem either. In fact, it can be useful to connect Builder staircases and ladders in a zig-zag pattern. :thumbsup:

Yes, agreed. I don't think there's any need to prohibit this behaviour. It's something that can always be looked at further down the line if people think it shouldn't happen. Meanwhile, I quite like that it adds another element of versatility.

However, what happens when you assign a Blocker in front of a Ladderer to turn the lemming himself around mid-performance? Here I'd expect the same behaviour as when turning a Laserer with a Blocker mid-shooting ... Meaning, the Ladderer would create the lower part of the ladder in the opposite direction - similar to what happens when you clone a Ladderer.

Just tested this, and it is indeed what happens; the skill action continues on the opposite side.

It was actually remarkably difficult and fiddly to set this up though, given the relatively small area from which the Ladderer can begin Laddering, and the brevity of the action.


Also, I just want to say I like the skill panel icon![/b] :thumbsup: It's just a little strange to me that the downward staircase in the icon looks like a Builder staircase, i.e., more "step-like", and at a flatter angle. I assume this might just be a preliminary version of the icon, and the final version will have the actual angle the skill uses?

Actually, that is pretty much the final version. And, it's the same angle as the actual skill, but the bricks are only 2px wide (instead of 3px) in the skill panel version due to the size of the button. I suppose I could make them 3px wide and see if that looks any better.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2023, 06:28:55 PM »
You’re right, I just looked at the video thumbnail again, which was already sufficient to see that the angle of the Ladderer on the skill panel is indeed correct. :D Sorry, I must have gotten the wrong impression while watching the video for the first time. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2023, 09:42:11 PM »
Here's another demo video of the Ladderer as it is currently - it also shows a little of the Ballooner in action as well.



In case anyone's interested, here's how the new version of the ladder is coded. Much simpler than the previous version!

Code: [Select]
procedure TLemmingGame.LayLadder(L: TLemming);
var
  i: Integer;
  PosX, PosY: Integer;
  FrameOffset: Integer;
const
  LadderBrick: array[0..8, 0..1] of Integer = (
       (0, 0), (1, 0), (2, 0),
               (1, 1), (2, 1), (3, 1),
                       (2, 2), (3, 2),(4, 2)
               );
begin
  PosX := L.LemX + L.LemDX;
  PosY := L.LemY;

  for i := 0 to Length(LadderBrick) - 1 do
  begin
    if L.LemPhysicsFrame in [10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24] then
    begin
        case L.LemPhysicsFrame of
          10: FrameOffset := 0;
          12: FrameOffset := 3;
          14: FrameOffset := 6;
          16: FrameOffset := 9;
          18: FrameOffset := 12;
          20: FrameOffset := 15;
          22: FrameOffset := 18;
          24: FrameOffset := 21;
          else Exit;
        end;

      if L.LemDX > 0 then
        AddConstructivePixel((PosX + FrameOffset) + LadderBrick[i, 0],
                             (PosY + FrameOffset) + LadderBrick[i, 1], BrickPixelColors[FrameOffset div 2])
      else
        AddConstructivePixel((PosX - FrameOffset) - LadderBrick[i, 0],
                             (PosY + FrameOffset) + LadderBrick[i, 1], BrickPixelColors[FrameOffset div 2]);
    end;
  end;
end;
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 12:41:21 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Downwards-Builder / "Ladderer" [POLL]
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2023, 09:02:20 PM »
I'm pleased to announce that the Ladderer is now confirmed for inclusion in SuperLemmix 2.6 - we're still ironing out a few kinks in pre-release testing, but it's pretty much good to go! :)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 12:39:24 AM by WillLem »