Author Topic: [SUG] Potentially useful L2-The Tribes skills / features for SuperLemmix  (Read 1686 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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This is the type of thread that we’d no longer dare to open for NeoLemmix — but I must admit I also look forward to having stable and reliable physics in that engine, with the certainty that there won’t be any further changes.

In SuperLemmix, meanwhile, not only are physics changes still pending (like the behaviour of the Shimmier), but new objects are still being introduced, too — or at least, their potential introduction is still being discussed.

While this makes me hesitate to create levels for SuperLemmix as long as future core physics changes to established skills / objects are likely (such as the Shimmier), it also looks like an opportunity to go back to the drawing board and wonder which of the skills we formerly considered for NeoLemmix might be suitable for SuperLemmix. Especially given the different philosophy SuperLemmix is moving towards.

And what better place to start out than with the Lemmings 2: The Tribes skills? ;)
A game notorious for its execution difficulty might be a valuable source for an engine like SuperLemmix, that deliberately brings some execution difficulty back into the mix. The crucial point is of course not to overdo it.



For that reason, I would personally not advocate for any of the skills that rely on the fan in Lemmings 2: The Tribes.
Or instead, if they should be considered for NeoLemmix, then in some altered version that no longer requires the fan.

Wind Skills (click to show/hide)

With destructive skills, there are some redundant ones, too:

Destructive Skills (click to show/hide)

For the constructive skills, most of them have already found their way into NeoLemmix, with three notable exceptions:

The Pourer Skills (click to show/hide)

As for the L2 Stacker, I admit I always liked the idea of a lemming rising WITH the stack he builds. Especially now that we have Jumpers / Shimmiers / Walkers, to cancel such a Stacker anytime. Since the Stacker already exists in NeoLemmix / SuperLemmix, if a skill like the L2 Stacker should ever be considered, it would have to be named differently. “Tower Builder” or something. ;)

Conversely, the L2 Planter essentially does what the NL / SL Stacker does. The problem with the Planter is that it works differently when facing to the left than when facing to the right, so the Planter gets a no from me.

With regards to the Shooting Skills, these are currently a unique feature of SuperLemmix over NeoLemmix:

Projectile Skills (click to show/hide)

For the movement skills, some have been previously discussed for NeoLemmix already. The Jumper, Shimmier, and Slider were all taken directly from Lemmings 2, setting a good precedent here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Finally, the Wiki page from the Lemmings Fandom also lists three more skills I’ve never heard of:
- the “User” (what does this even do?), from the PC MS-DOS Demo
- Magic Bridge
- Pyramider (the latter two are from Sega Master System, Game Gear, and Game Boy)

I remember WillLem being one of the most active users on the “joke ideas for skills” threads I once created. ;) So I hope he won’t mind me at least bringing this up for consideration. While some L2 skills do look like jokes to me, the question of whether we might want to cherry-pick a few more from among them for SuperLemmix is indeed meant as a serious one.



To conclude, I’d pick a few of my favourites:

- the Runner: already present in Lix, and should be comparatively easy to implement
- the Roper and the Twister: downward Builder and upward Digger, respectively. These are the only directions of movements still missing for constructive and destructive skills, as far as I am aware.
- Ballooner or Pole Vaulter: something to overcome those pesky not-Climber friendly obstacles that are way too high for a Jumper or single Builder
- the Glue Pourer: the most versatile one of the Pourer skills
- the Magno Booter: probably the one with the most versatility, especially if it’s a permanent skill that can start using other skills upside down (which it can’t in L2: The Tribes). Probably the hardest to implement, though.



PS: L2: The Tribes also has trampolines. With the reintroduction of Radiation and Slowfreeze being discussed (=objects that assign Bombers and Freezers), I could see a trapoline acting as an object that turns a lemming into a Jumper, but only if he falls onto it from above. It would also prevent splatting, like an anti-splat pad or updraft. To simplify things, the Jumper width could be independent of fall height (in contrast to Lemmings 3D / L2: The Tribes).

Then again, if the Runner is considered, that would already be a skill that alters the Jumper’s range. So perhaps, these two questions should be discussed in context.



What are your thoughts? ;)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 11:33:43 PM by WillLem »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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I've narrowed this list down to my four favorites...


Magic Carpet: I like the idea of a glider-type that goes upward.

Twister: I can see some use for digging upward vertically.

The Runner: Having one lemming run ahead to perform skills seems great. And having a runner perform a higher jump would replace
the vaulter for sure.

Flame Thrower: I agree this is replaced by the grenader pretty well, but I would make this one very different.
I would recommend making the flame perform like the old ghost gimmick; the flame will turn around any lemming (or zombie) it hits.
The possibility of some projectile killing a zombie is also a cool idea idea, I've suggested that spears or grenades kill zombies before.

Trampolines could be a useful object type, just make the lemming jump when he lands on it and not splat.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 03:39:43 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Here's my favorites. Some of these I've never actually seen in Lemmings 2, but sound fun.

Ballooner! This would be the best upward-vertical option I think. There is also lemmings artwork showing lemmings in balloons. A jetpack version is cool too.

Vertical laser? It might be nice to have the current laser have both directions. I thought the laser in Lemmings 2 allowed you to fire it in any direction. I know there's some weapon you can aim.

Magno-booter! C`mon, we all want this. We just don't expect to get it. I'm no programmer, but I think this would be best if it's temporary. Clicking the booter would begin a timer and cause the lemming to fall up. When the lemming hits the ceiling it can walk upside-down until the time runs out, then he falls. This would be the crown jewel of Super Lemmix skills.

Offline WillLem

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Excellent topic! Thanks for this one, Strato 8-)

Lots to reply to, so I've broken out some of the ideas into their own topics.

Note that, as of SLX 2.4, the Jumper now bounces and turns, as they do in L2 (I tested this before implementing the behaviour, and took it as something of a decision-making nudge when I realised this is how it's done in L2) - the point here being that I'm not averse to making skills act more like their L2 counterparts in general.

One more thing to note: none of my replies, or the individual topics created, are confirmation that any of these will happen. It's good to be discussing the ideas and exploring the possibilities, though :lemcat:

In SuperLemmix, meanwhile ... physics changes still pending (like the behaviour of the Shimmier)
---
this makes me hesitate to create levels for SuperLemmix as long as future core physics changes to established skills / objects are likely (such as the Shimmier)

Not sure if you've seen the latest post in this thread, but the future of the Shimmier is fairly solid now. I've added an extra pixel's grace for overhead checks (so they fall at 3px instead of 2px now) and this is unlikely to be reverted, but the proposal to have them turn when meeting a vertical wall is pretty much ruled out.

Ballooner: This one might be interesting without the fan, since it can get up vertical obstacles that the Climber cannot pass. It would require an automatic move into the direction the lemming is currently walking, though, once it finishes.

Replied to this here. Definitely a favourite.

Twister: ... The only use I could therefore still see for the Twister is the previously discussed idea of an upward Digger. Again, this would require the lemming to move into the direction it is facing, once the skill has been completed. Otherwise, the lemming will fall down its own shaft, and most likely splat in the process.

Replied to this here.

Surfer: ... The Surfer would be a non-permanent Swimmer.

Replied to this here.

I’ve always found the Glue Pourer the most versatile of these three
In the past, we contemplated the idea of the Roper being used as a downward Builder, specifically. Meaning, it should not be able to aim upwards, as it can in L2: The Tribes.

Replied to these here.

As for the L2 Stacker, I admit I always liked the idea of a lemming rising WITH the stack he builds

I'm 50/50 on this. Yes, it would make it easier to separate the stacking lem from the crowd, but currently having to add a Climber or Jumper into the mix to achieve this can make for some interesting and unique scenarios.

With that said, it may also help to reduce some of the Stacker's general fiddliness in this regard. A worthwhile suggestion, for sure.

The Runner: It already exists in Lix, and the only reason it doesn’t in NeoLemmix is that it tends to add execution difficulty where the NeoLemmix player wants none. For SuperLemmix, though? It seems tailor-made! :thumbsup:

Replied to this here. More of a challenge than you might think, this one. I do like the idea, though ;P

Skier / Skater: now that WillLem has started creating alternative water objects ... who says that “Ice” ... is ruled out?

Yes, ice could automatically assign Freezers to non-Skaters, creating a way to block the crowd and get a lem ahead at the same time! Nice idea, this one.

Diver: Basically just a fancy Jumper, if implemented as in L2. What would be a lot more interesting, though, is if it could be assigned to a Swimmer to make him go down in a water pond, without requiring a ceiling of terrain to do so.

Replied to this here.

SuperLem: The only skill that directly follows your mouse.

Replied to this here.

I could see a trapoline acting as an object that turns a lemming into a Jumper, but only if he falls onto it from above. It would also prevent splatting, like an anti-splat pad or updraft.

Replied to this here.

Flame Thrower: ... I would recommend ... the flame will turn around any lemming (or zombie) it hits.

Replied to this here.

The possibility of some projectile killing a zombie is also a cool idea idea, I've suggested that spears or grenades kill zombies before.

Replied to this here.

Magno Booter: This is one we previously discussed for NeoLemmix. It would probably be hard to code, though. Especially if, for added utility, it would work like the gravity-reversal objects in Lemmings Revolutoin, where Magno Booters could build / platform / stack / mine / fence / dig / laser-blast upside down.
Magno-booter! ... I think this would be best if it's temporary

Replied to this here.

Overall, some brilliant ideas in this topic. Again, none of the replies are confirmation that anything will happen, I'm just enjoying the discussion at this point. If anyone wants to discuss any of these ideas further, please reply in the individual topics created (or if one doesn't exist then please create one), so that we can discuss them individually, rule out the ones that perhaps aren't worth the effort, and make more definitive plans for the ones that have the most support.

One thing I will state definitively at this point: SLX must always have an even number of skills. So, we either add one and lose one, or add two. And, I'd prefer not to go any higher than 28, which is double the current amount allowed by SLX's 14-wide skill panel.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 11:27:09 AM by WillLem »

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Here's a pic of all the L2 skills.

Offline jkapp76

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Here's a screenshot that actually includes every single
skill SLX has!

I admit though, I modified that laserer to fire diagonally to match SLX.

I figured someone out here might want to make an icon set from these some day.

*Edit I may or may not have created a couple of my own for completion sake...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2023, 12:18:49 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Strato Incendus

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Did you use the Club Basher to represent the Batter / Flinger there? :D
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Yes, I figured the club basher had the most potential for the batter/flinger.

I also just added the freezer.  I fudged these last couple in just for fun.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2023, 02:59:12 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline jkapp76

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I just played the Lemmings 2 Demo and noticed there's a couple additional skills.

There's one that looks just like a disarmer, so I updated the skills picture in the above post.

There's a skill called "User". Not sure what it does yet. It just Bonks like I can't use that here.

*Update: There are some objects in this game, like cannons and if you make a lemming a USER, he will light the fuse and jump in, firing himself through the air. That's what a User does.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 02:02:40 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Strato Incendus

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Thanks for resolving this mystery, jkapp76! :thumbsup: Indeed, I had also just heard about the User for the first time a few days ago, and also asked the question here on the forums what it does. Looks like, in the demo version of Lemmings 2: The Tribes, you still had to make lemmings manually use the various objects in the game - whereas in the final version of Lemmings 2: The Tribes, they use catapults, cannons etc. automatically if they just walk onto the trigger.

Quote from: Strato Incendus
Finally, the Wiki page from the Lemmings Fandom also lists three more skills I’ve never heard of:
- the “User” (what does this even do?), from the PC MS-DOS Demo
- Magic Bridge
- Pyramider (the latter two are from Sega Master System, Game Gear, and Game Boy)

I assume you can't say anything about the Magic Bridge or Pyramider skills then, right? Because they only exist on the ports listed above? ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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*Update: There are some objects in this game, like cannons and if you make a lemming a USER, he will light the fuse and jump in, firing himself through the air. That's what a User does.

Maybe it was supposed to be "Fuser"...? :P

Or, maybe it means "object user", and - as Strato mentioned - they later stopped this being a skill and just made it an action.

Offline jkapp76

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"Pyramider" is a skill that can be assigned to a lemming in the Game Boy and Game Gear ports of Lemmings 2: The Tribes. When assigned, the lemming places a triangle-shaped ramp on the ground which becomes part of the terrain. This can be used to help a lemming walk out of a shallow pit or reach a higher elevation. It serves as a replacement to the Filler and Sand Pourer skills due to the handheld devices limitations, but a lemming assigned a Pyramider skill will not turn around.

"The Magic Bridge" is a skill that can be given to a lemming in the Game Boy and Game Gear ports of Lemmings 2: The Tribes. When assigned, the lemming will place a single tile in front of him and immediately begin walking again. Meanwhile, the tile will extend over a considerable distance until it hits an obstacle or it has reached its maximum length. It is useful in closing off gaps and pits in the lemming's path. The skill behaves similarly to the port's version of the Roper but can only be fired horizontally in the direction the lemming was walking. This skill was meant to replace the Glue Pourer which could not be programmed into the games due to the handheld devices' limitations.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Strato Incendus

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Thanks for the explanation, potentially also for digging up this information! ;)

So the two skills can be grouped as follows:
- Filler / Sand Pourer / Glue Pourer / Pyramider
- Platformer / Roper / Glue Pourer / Magic Bridge
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels