Author Topic: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)  (Read 3766 times)

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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2022, 01:27:33 AM »
@Ichotlot All your 3 solutions are 100% intended :thumbsup:

And I'm uploading my intended solutions and some alternative solutions I've received here for those who want ;)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2022, 08:52:29 AM »
@Icho

Awesome! Icho has solved all of my contest levels with either intended or acceptable alternatives! :thumbsup: More specifically, R1 is an acceptable alternative, while R2 and R3 are 100% intended, with the former swapping a couple of skills around from my intended one, but it still has the essential parts of the solution in it, so no changes needed for R2 or any of my entries for that matter.


Thank you for the compliment on the visuals for my R1 :thumbsup: In addition to this, I must say that I absolutely enjoyed making the level and I love the different parts of the solution I came up with for it! I think I even like this one more than my R1 from the previous contest even though that one I'm quite proud of too. This is also the entry that got me to finally see the light on how very useful the laserer is. Even though I have played plenty of levels featuring the skill from Lemmings Uncharted, I wasn't yet convinced of its usefulness and hence still thought that it has no place in NL. However, I guess sometimes it's enough to simply make your own levels using the skill in order to see its potential! So, I have to say that I'm now in full support of the laserer skill even though it's been in stable for about a year now.





With this, thank you so much to Apjjm, Icho, and Armani for the positive feedback/compliments/replays for my levels! :thumbsup: Once again, I have Icho to thank here that I even got into level designing, as it was his encouragement to me to give it a try and without that I think I would had simply been content with just solving levels! ;P

As for everyone else, keep the replays coming, as I always love seeing more solutions to my own levels. Not to mention others trying and attempting to get them solved ;) I think I will get around to playing these levels myself in the next few days or so. Just been super busy lately.

Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.

So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.

In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ;P). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.

The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.

Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.

I've never thought of it this way, with each fix lowering the overall quality of the level and the way you've quantified it, but I like the way you explained it here. Interestingly enough, I've kind of felt the same way with each fix as well, although some certainly way more than others, particularly the ones where I kept fixing it up rather than stop after a certain amount of versions. At the same time, I haven't yet gotten into the realm of accepting alternatives because, well, the designs I came up with don't really allow it, mostly due to the skillsets provided. However, as mentioned I have an open-ended level from the previous contest, as well as a couple here where I'm fine with alternatives, so I apparently started allowing other solutions starting with this contest! :P

Quote
As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)

I think you hit it spot on here with the ones you mentioned with being adamant of enforcing the intended solution at all costs. In my case, as I mentioned the problem is that my designs haven't really allowed for any alternatives, although some of mine in this contest do! I'll certainly be more than happy to explore and get into designs with open-ended solutions in the future, but at the same time I want to make sure they're interesting puzzle-wise. I certainly have nothing against them, and I welcome them with open arms just like I do with almost any level ;P From what I've seen and read around here, it's easy to make either an easy or hard open-ended level, but the challenge is making them interesting too!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 09:34:43 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2022, 09:56:17 AM »
Icho's solutions to my R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives. R3 is essentially the intended solution.
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My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Crane

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2022, 09:25:13 PM »
Yep, intended solution IchoTolot - well done.  A nice little classic level, as you said!

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2022, 02:01:25 PM »
@Icho

Just seen your videos! R3 is perfectly acceptable, but R2 is a backroute. Updated version posted! :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2022, 07:37:30 PM »
Is this better? ???

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2022, 09:02:53 PM »
@Icho

A very interesting interaction between laserer and stacker, but still a back route, I'm afraid :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2022, 10:09:19 PM »
Next solution. :)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2022, 04:23:42 PM »
@Icho

And next patch! :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2022, 08:42:18 PM »
This feels intended now. :)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2022, 08:59:25 PM »
You are indeed correct! Nicely done! :thumbsup:

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2022, 11:16:43 AM »
All rightie, I've recorded my playthrough of all the contest levels. Here are the links:

Rule 1: https://youtu.be/60X_dAgTi4I

Rule 2: https://youtu.be/kQuhjw1cXNc

Rule 3: https://youtu.be/ZRCa12izYwE

My contest levels: https://youtu.be/iSN3ANILHss


I've also attached my entire replay collection, as well as replays of the intended solutions for my levels. There are two replays for WillLem's R3, one is for the gold/bronze talisman, while the other is for the silver talisman.

As a whole, I thought this collection pack had really tough levels in contrast to last few contests. In particular, the R3's took the longest to solve. Also, if even top solvers like Icho and Armani thought my levels were hard, perhaps I should consider dropping the notion that my own levels are easy, relatively speaking, to all the other ones. It seems that I badly underestimate the difficulties of my levels. This being said, DO NOT expect me to go easy on the difficulty if I ever decide to make a level pack in the future! :P  I think it's becoming more and more likely that I will consider making one, having been inspired and encouraged by some forum members here :thumbsup:

R1 Feedback


DireKrow's Infiltration R1V1 (click to show/hide)





R2 Feedback

Apjjm's Roiling Clouds R2V1 (click to show/hide)

Armani's Tightrope Planet R2V2 (click to show/hide)


DireKrow's Steep Beescent R2V1 (click to show/hide)




WillLem's Minimalemism R2V1 (click to show/hide)


R3 Feedback







WillLem's Bosom Buddies R3V1 (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 11:23:50 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #103 on: May 29, 2022, 01:56:09 PM »
I have put together a quick video with the inteded solutions for my R2 & R3 levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0eo9cwJ55o

@kaywhyn - Great solutions to both my R2 & R3 levels :thumbsup: - The R2 level uses the intended element in the solution and saving both the blocker & walker was nice. The R3 whilst not the intended path is certainly acceptable. The way you contained the crowds was very different to my solution, and I am pleasently surprised as to how many variations I have seen in solutions to this one.

@ichotolot - Great solves for both levels too :thumbsup:. The R2 level uses the intended element - the way you used the blocker was very similar to the initial concept of the level but I ended up adding a different skill instead to make things easier to execute. The R3 solution again much like kaywhyn doesn't handle the crowds as intended but certainly uses the skills in an interesting way so is an acceptable alternative - the only part of this solution that I might have considered changing is how the platformer is used after the pickup-skill beyond the monitor - though I think it is too late in the contest now for me to want to make changes (and also I kinda like that this is a tricky level with a variety of different solutions).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 02:06:44 PM by Apjjm »
My Level Packs: Quartet

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2022, 05:27:41 PM »
@Apjjm

Just posting to confirm that a save 56 for your R3 is indeed possible if the right exit has a limit of 26, not the left exit as you mentioned in the video description. Replay attached.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0