Author Topic: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)  (Read 2771 times)

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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2022, 01:27:33 AM »
@Ichotlot All your 3 solutions are 100% intended :thumbsup:

And I'm uploading my intended solutions and some alternative solutions I've received here for those who want ;)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2022, 08:52:29 AM »
@Icho

Awesome! Icho has solved all of my contest levels with either intended or acceptable alternatives! :thumbsup: More specifically, R1 is an acceptable alternative, while R2 and R3 are 100% intended, with the former swapping a couple of skills around from my intended one, but it still has the essential parts of the solution in it, so no changes needed for R2 or any of my entries for that matter.


Thank you for the compliment on the visuals for my R1 :thumbsup: In addition to this, I must say that I absolutely enjoyed making the level and I love the different parts of the solution I came up with for it! I think I even like this one more than my R1 from the previous contest even though that one I'm quite proud of too. This is also the entry that got me to finally see the light on how very useful the laserer is. Even though I have played plenty of levels featuring the skill from Lemmings Uncharted, I wasn't yet convinced of its usefulness and hence still thought that it has no place in NL. However, I guess sometimes it's enough to simply make your own levels using the skill in order to see its potential! So, I have to say that I'm now in full support of the laserer skill even though it's been in stable for about a year now.





With this, thank you so much to Apjjm, Icho, and Armani for the positive feedback/compliments/replays for my levels! :thumbsup: Once again, I have Icho to thank here that I even got into level designing, as it was his encouragement to me to give it a try and without that I think I would had simply been content with just solving levels! ;P

As for everyone else, keep the replays coming, as I always love seeing more solutions to my own levels. Not to mention others trying and attempting to get them solved ;) I think I will get around to playing these levels myself in the next few days or so. Just been super busy lately.

Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.

So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.

In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ;P). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.

The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.

Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.

I've never thought of it this way, with each fix lowering the overall quality of the level and the way you've quantified it, but I like the way you explained it here. Interestingly enough, I've kind of felt the same way with each fix as well, although some certainly way more than others, particularly the ones where I kept fixing it up rather than stop after a certain amount of versions. At the same time, I haven't yet gotten into the realm of accepting alternatives because, well, the designs I came up with don't really allow it, mostly due to the skillsets provided. However, as mentioned I have an open-ended level from the previous contest, as well as a couple here where I'm fine with alternatives, so I apparently started allowing other solutions starting with this contest! :P

Quote
As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)

I think you hit it spot on here with the ones you mentioned with being adamant of enforcing the intended solution at all costs. In my case, as I mentioned the problem is that my designs haven't really allowed for any alternatives, although some of mine in this contest do! I'll certainly be more than happy to explore and get into designs with open-ended solutions in the future, but at the same time I want to make sure they're interesting puzzle-wise. I certainly have nothing against them, and I welcome them with open arms just like I do with almost any level ;P From what I've seen and read around here, it's easy to make either an easy or hard open-ended level, but the challenge is making them interesting too!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 09:34:43 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2022, 09:56:17 AM »
Icho's solutions to my R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives. R3 is essentially the intended solution.
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Offline Crane

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2022, 09:25:13 PM »
Yep, intended solution IchoTolot - well done.  A nice little classic level, as you said!

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2022, 02:01:25 PM »
@Icho

Just seen your videos! R3 is perfectly acceptable, but R2 is a backroute. Updated version posted! :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2022, 07:37:30 PM »
Is this better? ???