Author Topic: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix  (Read 2661 times)

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Offline WillLem

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Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« on: December 29, 2020, 03:44:54 PM »
I recently brought up the idea of having records topics for SuperLemmini, and I was asked by Gronkling on Discord whether there are any physics differences which may affect challenge results.

I am aware of some differences already, but I thought it might be worthwhile to investigate further and document as many as I can find. Some of these differences may affect challenge results, but others are unlikely to make any significant difference. Either way, it's interesting to see how the engines differ.

So, here are the differences that I'm aware of. Please comment if you know of any others and I'll add them to this list.



3. Steel oddities (click to show/hide)









Thanks to Turrican and ericderkovits for supplying images, replays and videos.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 11:21:32 PM by WillLem »

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2020, 06:22:07 PM »
This is a topic , that I would really like to participate , but unfortunately I have little time for anything lemmings related , the last months. Also I am doing some "Lemmix to Neolemmix" level conversions , and some of the converted levels , contain some tricks , that are Not possible in Neolemmix ( with more to come ).

So first of all : In Superlemmini , a basher and a miner can cancel each other , if you time them correctly. This applies if the basher and the miner are facing at the opposite direction , and if they are facing at the same direction. In both cases the miner and the basher can cancel each other.

There are two levels that I have converted , that showcase both these tricks ( the second can be solved , without that trick , but the replay of my solution includes the trick ). The converted levels are :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another trick: Do you have a lemming , that it needs to cross an area that has a 1-pixel gap at the floor? No problem! When it is at the edge of the 1-pixel gap , assign it a miner at the correct frame , and it will surpass it.

Levels that I have converted , that showcase this trick :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also in Superlemmini , a climber can surpass by climbing , objects like a "3 builder wall" for example.

I am sure , I can find more differences between the two engines , but I need to find time to experiment.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 07:19:07 PM by Turrican »
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Offline namida

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2020, 06:26:51 PM »
#2 in WillLem's post is a great example of how SuperLemmini is kinda inconsistent. In some of these cases, it is reproducing actual Amiga behaviors despite them being blatant glitches - the steel thing being the obvious example. And yet #2 is a deviation from Amiga physics; as Amiga behaves the same way NL does in that case. The only other engine I can think of that doesn't, is Cheapo (edit: and Lix).

EDIT: (See below, further discussion reveals SL is consistent with Amiga, DOS, NL, etc on this point.)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 02:12:58 AM by namida »

Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2020, 06:47:53 PM »
#2, Diagonal downwards slipping through blocks: I call this checkerboarding. This is a wonderful source of endless debate: If lemmings walk into the side of a checkerboard, shall they move diagonally upwards or downwards?

I claim that SL and Lix have this right (upwards checkerboarding = no slipping downwards through diagonal cracks) and that L1 and NL (downwards checkerboarding) suffer from the human aftermath of putting the lemming's pin inside the walked land instead of into the air directly above the land.
 
Icho claims the opposite and considers it natural that the lemmings slip downwards through diagonal gaps.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 08:47:40 PM by Simon »

Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2020, 06:58:43 PM »
#1 (builder-cancelling top edge) and #4 (steel is can of worms) are consistent with DOS and probably Amiga L1.

In L1, there is a magic builder-cancelling force field near the top edge. Slightly higher than that, walkers will turn if they ascend diagonal slopes. If you re-assign builder to force the lemming even higher, the lemming will get stuck in the top edge.

It's not easy to find good top edge behavior, nothing feels completely natural. Most of the L1 top edge behavior, still, I consider it weird or buggy. But if SL shall replicate Amiga physics, these several effects must be replicated in SL.

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 07:25:23 PM »
It's not easy to find good top edge behavior, nothing feels completely natural. Most of the L1 top edge behavior, still, I consider it weird or buggy. But if SL shall replicate Amiga physics, these several effects must be replicated in SL.

As I've said before, there's a big difference between the possible philosophies of "go with Amiga in edge cases where the various versions differ" and "be a replica of Amiga, glitches and all". It's never been made clear which of these is really SL's philosophy, partly because of Tsyu not being around much, partly because of other users conflating the two in discussions.

Offline LanaAndCo

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2020, 07:43:55 PM »
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly (I did it hastily and without knowing how to use the new editor). In the original SuperLemmini version, the pixels aren't diagonally opposing each others, they are "glued" together, because lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels. It's in fact while making this level that I learned about this and I didn't wanted the lemmings to die so early in the level because of an optical illusion of some sort.

Here's a screenshot of the SuperLemmini version :


And here's the NeoLemmix version :


It's kinda hard to see, so I changed the background colour for it to be easier but you still need to zoom a lot.

I don't know how the NeoLemmix Editor works when converting a SuperLemmini level to a NeoLemmix one, but my assumption is that it reorganize the tiles on a grid maybe? It's probably my fault too, since I never used the newer version of the NeoLemmix Editor. Sorry for all of this.

Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2020, 08:56:01 PM »
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly
lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels.

Excellent catch, thanks. In OP's SL screenshot, the blocks are barely glued.

I, too, assume that the editor will halve the SL coordinates and round to the NL integer grid, and the diagonal gap is an artifact of the rounding.

I edited my reply #3 with: SL has downwards checkerboarding, not upwards.

Quote from: Proxima
"go with Amiga in edge cases where the various versions differ" and "be a replica of Amiga, glitches and all". It's never been made clear which of these is really SL's philosophy, partly because of Tsyu not being around much, partly because of other users conflating the two in discussions.

Right. I conjecture that SL doesn't want to duplicate Amiga physics, otherwise SL's physics would be low-res. Even then, many of these cases are good old bug-or-feature decisions.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 09:36:57 PM by Simon »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 02:38:56 AM »
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly (I did it hastily and without knowing how to use the new editor). In the original SuperLemmini version, the pixels aren't diagonally opposing each others, they are "glued" together, because lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels. It's in fact while making this level that I learned about this and I didn't wanted the lemmings to die so early in the level because of an optical illusion of some sort.

Confirmed. Thanks for clarifying this, Lana! I double-checked (pun intended ;P) by creating the following:


So, the OP has been updated accordingly.

I don't know how the NeoLemmix Editor works when converting a SuperLemmini level to a NeoLemmix one, but my assumption is that it reorganize the tiles on a grid maybe? It's probably my fault too, since I never used the newer version of the NeoLemmix Editor. Sorry for all of this.

No need to apologise at all, it's not your fault. The editor does handle things slightly differently when converting to NXLV, I noticed a few objects moved 1 pixel to the right during the Amiga Lemmings conversion project.

Also, your level has helped to clarify that SuperLemmini is, in fact, consistent with Amiga physics on this particular point, so thank you! :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 01:26:20 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 02:13:56 PM »
(1) In Superlemmini , a basher and a miner can cancel each other , if you time them correctly. This applies if the basher and the miner are facing at the opposite direction , and if they are facing at the same direction.
---
(2) Another trick: Do you have a lemming , that it needs to cross an area that has a 1-pixel gap at the floor? No problem! When it is at the edge of the 1-pixel gap , assign it a miner at the correct frame , and it will surpass it.
---
(3) Also in Superlemmini , a climber can surpass by climbing , objects like a "3 builder wall" for example.

Thanks for these suggestions, Turrican! I'm sure I'll be updating this topic periodically for quite a while, so feel free to mention any of these that you find as and when, it's all good.

I've confirmed 2 and 3 and added them to the OP. However, I can't seem to recreate the first of these (i.e. Bashers and Miners cancelling each other). If anyone has a replay which demonstrates this in action, I'd be grateful to see it.

Climbing past of a 3-builder "wall" is, again, another way in which SL is consistent with Amiga physics. I wonder whether the Miner/1px gap trick is also present in Amiga, but I can't think of a suitable level for testing it.

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 02:51:56 PM »
However, I can't seem to recreate the first of these (i.e. Bashers and Miners cancelling each other). If anyone has a replay which demonstrates this in action, I'd be grateful to see it.

Both tricks are present in the replays of two of the levels that I have converted. These levels are
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Links for these two levels and their replays :

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.msg86502#msg86502

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.msg86643#msg86643
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2020, 04:31:53 PM »
Hi WillLem and Turrican,

I uploaded to Youtube 3 videos.

1) showing a climber climbs a 3 builder wall(from my Lemmings Reunion). This level requires a builder wall to be solved. I had to add another builder(to make a 4 builder wall), so level can be solved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsqjzDSH-Jk

2) showing a climber WILL be STOPPED by a 4 builder wall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VetJtU2iUhM

3) Miner and Basher BOTH STOPPED. From a level in Pimolems. The Miner and Basher STOPPED near exit. Thus I saved 1 over the requirement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMJXv0S0aBQ
 

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2020, 05:03:42 PM »
Great job ericderkovits! :thumbsup:

We have eric's video now ,  that showcases the basher/miner cancel where both are facing at the same direction , so here is also , a video that showcases the basher/miner cancel where the lemmings are facing at the opposite direction ( from one of the levels that I have converted ) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06dKxkuwx48
My Youtube channel ( Turrican Lemm )  :
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGFBOHdYITHlsqa203Tu8Q

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 05:33:37 PM »
Thanks for the links, guys :thumbsup:

I've now added the Bashers & Miners trick to the OP. As far as I'm aware, it's not possible for these skills to mutually cancel each other in NeoLemmix.

I wonder how Icho created the mixed style level in Reunion...? Is it a "super style" which mixes all tiles from all sets? I was thinking of doing the same thing myself, but no need if it already exists!

I don't have Reunion for SuperLemmini yet, but I'll definitely be getting it after watching that vid! :lemcat:

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 05:45:30 PM »
RE: WillLem

Icho's mixed style is called EPIC. Icho used this style for the final levels of Reunion in each of the 4 5 ranks. I have all of Icho's styles in the 1.43 editor as well as for my Reunion Superlemmini Conversion. So if you have downloaded the Superlemmini 1.43 styles that I posted, you can make levels using this EPIC style for Superlemmini.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 08:10:59 PM by ericderkovits »