Author Topic: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix  (Read 2658 times)

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Offline WillLem

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Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« on: December 29, 2020, 03:44:54 PM »
I recently brought up the idea of having records topics for SuperLemmini, and I was asked by Gronkling on Discord whether there are any physics differences which may affect challenge results.

I am aware of some differences already, but I thought it might be worthwhile to investigate further and document as many as I can find. Some of these differences may affect challenge results, but others are unlikely to make any significant difference. Either way, it's interesting to see how the engines differ.

So, here are the differences that I'm aware of. Please comment if you know of any others and I'll add them to this list.



3. Steel oddities (click to show/hide)









Thanks to Turrican and ericderkovits for supplying images, replays and videos.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 11:21:32 PM by WillLem »

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2020, 06:22:07 PM »
This is a topic , that I would really like to participate , but unfortunately I have little time for anything lemmings related , the last months. Also I am doing some "Lemmix to Neolemmix" level conversions , and some of the converted levels , contain some tricks , that are Not possible in Neolemmix ( with more to come ).

So first of all : In Superlemmini , a basher and a miner can cancel each other , if you time them correctly. This applies if the basher and the miner are facing at the opposite direction , and if they are facing at the same direction. In both cases the miner and the basher can cancel each other.

There are two levels that I have converted , that showcase both these tricks ( the second can be solved , without that trick , but the replay of my solution includes the trick ). The converted levels are :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another trick: Do you have a lemming , that it needs to cross an area that has a 1-pixel gap at the floor? No problem! When it is at the edge of the 1-pixel gap , assign it a miner at the correct frame , and it will surpass it.

Levels that I have converted , that showcase this trick :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also in Superlemmini , a climber can surpass by climbing , objects like a "3 builder wall" for example.

I am sure , I can find more differences between the two engines , but I need to find time to experiment.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 07:19:07 PM by Turrican »
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Offline namida

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2020, 06:26:51 PM »
#2 in WillLem's post is a great example of how SuperLemmini is kinda inconsistent. In some of these cases, it is reproducing actual Amiga behaviors despite them being blatant glitches - the steel thing being the obvious example. And yet #2 is a deviation from Amiga physics; as Amiga behaves the same way NL does in that case. The only other engine I can think of that doesn't, is Cheapo (edit: and Lix).

EDIT: (See below, further discussion reveals SL is consistent with Amiga, DOS, NL, etc on this point.)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 02:12:58 AM by namida »

Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2020, 06:47:53 PM »
#2, Diagonal downwards slipping through blocks: I call this checkerboarding. This is a wonderful source of endless debate: If lemmings walk into the side of a checkerboard, shall they move diagonally upwards or downwards?

I claim that SL and Lix have this right (upwards checkerboarding = no slipping downwards through diagonal cracks) and that L1 and NL (downwards checkerboarding) suffer from the human aftermath of putting the lemming's pin inside the walked land instead of into the air directly above the land.
 
Icho claims the opposite and considers it natural that the lemmings slip downwards through diagonal gaps.

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 08:47:40 PM by Simon »

Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2020, 06:58:43 PM »
#1 (builder-cancelling top edge) and #4 (steel is can of worms) are consistent with DOS and probably Amiga L1.

In L1, there is a magic builder-cancelling force field near the top edge. Slightly higher than that, walkers will turn if they ascend diagonal slopes. If you re-assign builder to force the lemming even higher, the lemming will get stuck in the top edge.

It's not easy to find good top edge behavior, nothing feels completely natural. Most of the L1 top edge behavior, still, I consider it weird or buggy. But if SL shall replicate Amiga physics, these several effects must be replicated in SL.

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 07:25:23 PM »
It's not easy to find good top edge behavior, nothing feels completely natural. Most of the L1 top edge behavior, still, I consider it weird or buggy. But if SL shall replicate Amiga physics, these several effects must be replicated in SL.

As I've said before, there's a big difference between the possible philosophies of "go with Amiga in edge cases where the various versions differ" and "be a replica of Amiga, glitches and all". It's never been made clear which of these is really SL's philosophy, partly because of Tsyu not being around much, partly because of other users conflating the two in discussions.

Offline LanaAndCo

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2020, 07:43:55 PM »
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly (I did it hastily and without knowing how to use the new editor). In the original SuperLemmini version, the pixels aren't diagonally opposing each others, they are "glued" together, because lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels. It's in fact while making this level that I learned about this and I didn't wanted the lemmings to die so early in the level because of an optical illusion of some sort.

Here's a screenshot of the SuperLemmini version :


And here's the NeoLemmix version :


It's kinda hard to see, so I changed the background colour for it to be easier but you still need to zoom a lot.

I don't know how the NeoLemmix Editor works when converting a SuperLemmini level to a NeoLemmix one, but my assumption is that it reorganize the tiles on a grid maybe? It's probably my fault too, since I never used the newer version of the NeoLemmix Editor. Sorry for all of this.

Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2020, 08:56:01 PM »
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly
lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels.

Excellent catch, thanks. In OP's SL screenshot, the blocks are barely glued.

I, too, assume that the editor will halve the SL coordinates and round to the NL integer grid, and the diagonal gap is an artifact of the rounding.

I edited my reply #3 with: SL has downwards checkerboarding, not upwards.

Quote from: Proxima
"go with Amiga in edge cases where the various versions differ" and "be a replica of Amiga, glitches and all". It's never been made clear which of these is really SL's philosophy, partly because of Tsyu not being around much, partly because of other users conflating the two in discussions.

Right. I conjecture that SL doesn't want to duplicate Amiga physics, otherwise SL's physics would be low-res. Even then, many of these cases are good old bug-or-feature decisions.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 09:36:57 PM by Simon »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 02:38:56 AM »
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly (I did it hastily and without knowing how to use the new editor). In the original SuperLemmini version, the pixels aren't diagonally opposing each others, they are "glued" together, because lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels. It's in fact while making this level that I learned about this and I didn't wanted the lemmings to die so early in the level because of an optical illusion of some sort.

Confirmed. Thanks for clarifying this, Lana! I double-checked (pun intended ;P) by creating the following:


So, the OP has been updated accordingly.

I don't know how the NeoLemmix Editor works when converting a SuperLemmini level to a NeoLemmix one, but my assumption is that it reorganize the tiles on a grid maybe? It's probably my fault too, since I never used the newer version of the NeoLemmix Editor. Sorry for all of this.

No need to apologise at all, it's not your fault. The editor does handle things slightly differently when converting to NXLV, I noticed a few objects moved 1 pixel to the right during the Amiga Lemmings conversion project.

Also, your level has helped to clarify that SuperLemmini is, in fact, consistent with Amiga physics on this particular point, so thank you! :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 01:26:20 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 02:13:56 PM »
(1) In Superlemmini , a basher and a miner can cancel each other , if you time them correctly. This applies if the basher and the miner are facing at the opposite direction , and if they are facing at the same direction.
---
(2) Another trick: Do you have a lemming , that it needs to cross an area that has a 1-pixel gap at the floor? No problem! When it is at the edge of the 1-pixel gap , assign it a miner at the correct frame , and it will surpass it.
---
(3) Also in Superlemmini , a climber can surpass by climbing , objects like a "3 builder wall" for example.

Thanks for these suggestions, Turrican! I'm sure I'll be updating this topic periodically for quite a while, so feel free to mention any of these that you find as and when, it's all good.

I've confirmed 2 and 3 and added them to the OP. However, I can't seem to recreate the first of these (i.e. Bashers and Miners cancelling each other). If anyone has a replay which demonstrates this in action, I'd be grateful to see it.

Climbing past of a 3-builder "wall" is, again, another way in which SL is consistent with Amiga physics. I wonder whether the Miner/1px gap trick is also present in Amiga, but I can't think of a suitable level for testing it.

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 02:51:56 PM »
However, I can't seem to recreate the first of these (i.e. Bashers and Miners cancelling each other). If anyone has a replay which demonstrates this in action, I'd be grateful to see it.

Both tricks are present in the replays of two of the levels that I have converted. These levels are
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Links for these two levels and their replays :

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.msg86502#msg86502

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.msg86643#msg86643
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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2020, 04:31:53 PM »
Hi WillLem and Turrican,

I uploaded to Youtube 3 videos.

1) showing a climber climbs a 3 builder wall(from my Lemmings Reunion). This level requires a builder wall to be solved. I had to add another builder(to make a 4 builder wall), so level can be solved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsqjzDSH-Jk

2) showing a climber WILL be STOPPED by a 4 builder wall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VetJtU2iUhM

3) Miner and Basher BOTH STOPPED. From a level in Pimolems. The Miner and Basher STOPPED near exit. Thus I saved 1 over the requirement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMJXv0S0aBQ
 

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2020, 05:03:42 PM »
Great job ericderkovits! :thumbsup:

We have eric's video now ,  that showcases the basher/miner cancel where both are facing at the same direction , so here is also , a video that showcases the basher/miner cancel where the lemmings are facing at the opposite direction ( from one of the levels that I have converted ) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06dKxkuwx48
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Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 05:33:37 PM »
Thanks for the links, guys :thumbsup:

I've now added the Bashers & Miners trick to the OP. As far as I'm aware, it's not possible for these skills to mutually cancel each other in NeoLemmix.

I wonder how Icho created the mixed style level in Reunion...? Is it a "super style" which mixes all tiles from all sets? I was thinking of doing the same thing myself, but no need if it already exists!

I don't have Reunion for SuperLemmini yet, but I'll definitely be getting it after watching that vid! :lemcat:

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 05:45:30 PM »
RE: WillLem

Icho's mixed style is called EPIC. Icho used this style for the final levels of Reunion in each of the 4 5 ranks. I have all of Icho's styles in the 1.43 editor as well as for my Reunion Superlemmini Conversion. So if you have downloaded the Superlemmini 1.43 styles that I posted, you can make levels using this EPIC style for Superlemmini.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 08:10:59 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2020, 07:59:16 PM »
I've now added the Bashers & Miners trick to the OP. As far as I'm aware, it's not possible for these skills to mutually cancel each other in NeoLemmix.

You are correct. In the case of the basher and miner, in Neolemmix this means the only possibilities are one gets cancelled but the other continues, or both continue, although the latter is far harder to achieve. Indeed, in NL I think the only skills that can cancel each other out are miners. It's a lot easier to cancel just one miner, but to have both cancel is far harder and much more precise. All other combinations are either one gets cancelled and the other continues or both continue.

Quote
I wonder how Icho created the mixed style level in Reunion...? Is it a "super style" which mixes all tiles from all sets? I was thinking of doing the same thing myself, but no need if it already exists!

Yup, the epic tileset is simply all of the original Lemmings and ONML tilesets in one. I remember being in awe seeing the Reunion levels that used the tileset. They're wonderfully designed!

Icho's mixed style is called EPIC. Icho used this style for the final levels of Reunion in each of the 4 ranks

Yikes, you have forgotten that Reunion has 5 ranks :P
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Offline namida

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2020, 08:22:50 PM »
Quote
I wonder whether the Miner/1px gap trick is also present in Amiga, but I can't think of a suitable level for testing it.

You can set it up yourself in an X-of-everything level. See attached replay (for Gentle 8 of Redux) - the exact setup would be a bit different due to the different builder checks, but same general idea applies. If you were to do this on DOS (and presumably, Amiga - I'd be very surprised if it doesn't happen there too), the miner would cross the gap instead of falling into it.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2020, 03:35:01 AM »
Icho's mixed style is called EPIC... So if you have downloaded the Superlemmini 1.43 styles that I posted, you can make levels using this EPIC style for Superlemmini.

I downloaded Reunion (along with music, styles and replays) yesterday evening. I plan on LPing it at some point, it looks like an awesome pack :lemcat:

And yes, it's great to see that the EPIC style is something which already exists! :thumbsup:

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2021, 07:40:39 PM »
Another one:

Load Tame 1 from onml , and try to create a bridge , like the one that is shown at the pictures , that I have attached. How many builders will it take?

It took me 5 builders for the Superlemmini version , and 7 builders for the Neolemmix version. This happens ( if I am correct ) , because of the more relaxed builder checks , the Superlemmini version has , compared to the Neolemmix version.

For Superlemmini , I used the conversion , of the dos version of onml.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2021, 09:09:25 AM »
Thanks for the info & screenshots Turrican, I've added this to the OP.

I also confirmed that it only takes 5 Builders in the Amiga version as well, making SuperLemmini consistent with Amiga physics on all points noted so far:





Incidentally, I have noticed that there is at least one way in which SuperLemmini is not consistent with Amiga, and that's with Climbers being able to hoist through a Builder bridge that begins on the very edge of the terrain (the SL screenshot is on the right):



Note that, on Amiga, it is possible for the Climbers to pass the Builders bridge, but in SuperLemmini they fall. I wonder whether this is due to inconsistent Climber-ceiling checks in the Amiga version which Tsyu decided not to emulate.


Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2021, 09:38:10 AM »
I've found another one, but I'm not sure exactly what the difference is here. In the Bonus level "Don't Make The Wrong Choice", NeoLemmix makes it possible for a single Builder to bridge the gap near the end, making a 100% save possible:

NeoLemmix version (click to show/hide)

However, in the SuperLemmini version, it requires 2 Builders to cross the gap no matter where the first Builder is placed (I've tried!), meaning that it's only possible to save 49/50:

SuperLemmini version (click to show/hide)

This video shows that the gap requires 2 Builders on the Amiga version as well (the player uses only 1 Builder to traverse a similar gap at the other side of the level, so it's likely they will have attempted the same on this side; the gap at the other side can be traversed with 1 Builder in all versions AFAIK).

I'm aware that LVL-to-NXLV conversion can cause displacements of objects by 1 or 2 pixels, but I'm not sure whether the same happens with terrain.

If so, it could simply be that the level conversion itself has made it possible for a single Builder to bridge the gap, and if not then it could point to another fundamental difference in the physics.

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2021, 12:10:46 PM »
I've found another one, but I'm not sure exactly what the difference is here. In the Bonus level "Don't Make The Wrong Choice", NeoLemmix makes it possible for a single Builder to bridge the gap near the end, making a 100% save possible:

However, in the SuperLemmini version, it requires 2 Builders to cross the gap no matter where the first Builder is placed (I've tried!), meaning that it's only possible to save 49/50:

The reason for that seems to be a characteristic left-facing builders have in several games/engines. In Superlemmi when a left-facing builder starts building a bridge , it places the first brick , one pixel behind it's feet. That doesn't happen to right-facing builders , and also doesn't happen in Neolemmix in both left-facing and right-facing builders.

The same thing that happens in Superlemmini , happens also in dos. From the "Glitches in Lemmings" thread:

"Right-facing builders place bricks one pixel further in front of them than left-facing builders. This affects the potential length of a bridge that can be made by "stretching" bridges"

I have attached pictures that showcase all these behaviors , by making a climber start building , at the first frame , when it has ended climbing . Pictures are again from Tame 1 from onml ( For Superlemmini , I used again , the conversion of the dos version of onml. )

In the picture you have posted the builder is a left-facing builder , so what I have described here , seems to be the reason for this behavior.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 12:17:52 PM by Turrican »
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Offline Simon

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2021, 12:22:25 PM »
5 builders for the Superlemmini version , and 7 builders for the Neolemmix

This is a particularity of NeoLemmix. I've called this NL's builder belly check, but it's really an extended foot check (up to 3 pixels above ground), or leg check. Besides NL, I don't know any other engine that has a taller foot check than 1 pixel.

-- Simon

Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2021, 04:19:32 PM »
The reason for that seems to be a characteristic left-facing builders have in several games/engines. In Superlemmi when a left-facing builder starts building a bridge , it places the first brick , one pixel behind it's feet. That doesn't happen to right-facing builders , and also doesn't happen in Neolemmix in both left-facing and right-facing builders.

Ah, of course, that old chestnut!

I kind of already knew about this one, but it's good to have it confirmed that it is indeed a physics thing and not just something I was imagining. I even mention it in my SUPERLEMMINGS playthrough; I modified the level to have Builders facing in both directions, because it is slightly more difficult to build to the left (1px more difficult, to be exact!).

I've added this example to the OP, thanks again for confirming.

This is a particularity of NeoLemmix. I've called this NL's builder belly check, but it's really an extended foot check (up to 3 pixels above ground), or leg check. Besides NL, I don't know any other engine that has a taller foot check than 1 pixel.

I wonder what the reason for this is... I'll ask namida on Discord.

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2021, 12:08:48 PM »
Here is a blocker release technique , that doesn't work the same between Superlemmini and Neolemmix , due to differences in basher physics , between the two engines.

Let's say you have a bridge with a blocker assigned on it , in the position that is shown in the first picture that I have attached.
If you assign an incoming lemming as a basher at the correct position , as shown in the second picture that I have attached , it will release the blocker , but instead of bashing the entire lower part of the bridge , it will just remove some pixels of it ( as shown in the third picture ) , so the bridge won't be destroyed , and the other lemmings will be able to use it.

Now , in Neolemmix what I have described here can work , but only if the bridge is "under construction" ( only if the builder has  has just placed the first bricks of the bridge ) , when the basher is assigned.

If the bridge is complete , or is close to be completed , there is no way for the basher to release the blocker , without destroying the bridge.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 12:15:17 PM by Turrican »
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Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2021, 04:56:25 PM »
Now , in Neolemmix what I have described here can work , but only if the bridge is "under construction" ( only if the builder has  has just placed the first bricks of the bridge ) , when the basher is assigned.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Any chance of a quick video demo?

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2021, 07:49:57 AM »
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Any chance of a quick video demo?

In the first 3 pictures , that I have attached , you can see a similar builder-blocker setup , to the one that I used in Superlemmini , but as you can see the builder is currently building the bridge. In that case , you can release the blocker with the basher , without destroying the bridge. ( Same as Superlemmini ).

In the last 3 pictures , we have the exactly same builder-blocker setup , but the bridge is now complete. There is no way now to use this trick now. There no way to release the blocker without destroying the bridge.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2021, 07:03:39 PM »
That's an interesting one, Turrican - very likely that it's connected to Basher terrain checks, as per this discussion on how it affects Basher/steel interaction.

Added it to the OP.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2021, 02:06:00 AM »
ok I figured I would put these on Youtube

Superlemmini ones

1) blocker released by a basher on a bridge(when bridge is complete) basher doesn't destroy bridge (will NOT work in NL)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLzcVTd9lUU

2) blocker released by a basher on a bridge(when bridge is still being built) again basher doesn't destroy bridge (Does work in NL)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFiVwGtK2c4

Neolemmix ones
1) Attempting to release blocker on bridge by a basher (when bridge is complete) can't release blocker on bridge by a basher when bridge is complete. (Does work in SL.)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK46L-7rWgI

2) blocker released by a basher on a bridge (while bridge is still being built). This does work in NL as well as SL.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkA2Srl4foU


Thanks Kaywhyn for commenting on youtube. I just wanted to post videos of these 4 so WillLem can see actual videos instead of just pngs.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 02:21:35 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2021, 02:17:08 AM »
As I already mentioned on your videos, many thanks for them. It's a lot clearer this way.

Conclusions:

Superlemmini

It's ALWAYS possible to release a blocker on a builder staircase without destroying the bridge so that others can still use it, regardless of whether the bridge is complete or currently in progress

Neolemmix

Two possibilities, either the blocker gets bashed free without destroying the builder staircase, or the blocker gets bashed free but in the process the bridge is destroyed so that others cannot use it.

For the former, this can only happen in the very early stages of the bridge being built. The latter happens if too much of the bridge is already built or is complete.

Grand conclusion: No contradiction in anything Turrican said. To be fair, it was a bit unclear what engines the pictures were for, but based on his description it should be possible to figure out.
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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2021, 02:24:27 AM »
yes I just wanted videos for WillLem to see instead of pngs. I was just confirming Turricans, not trying to contradict them (which I couldn't do even if I wanted).

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2021, 02:36:56 AM »
Yea I should had waited before commenting on your first one, because I later realized there was no contradiction at all (I edited it) :XD: Anyway eric, your videos demonstrating all 4 cases are very much appreciated :thumbsup:
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Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2021, 08:33:59 PM »
Here is a trick , that works in Superlemmini , but it is impossible in Neolemmix.

I have posted pictures in this post ,that showcase the trick ( first three are from Superlemmini , and the last three are from Neolemmix ) , but in my next post , I will also post replays , that showcase it.

So , to perform the trick , assign a miner to a lemming that is in the top of a large terain piece , which has the same shape as shown in the first picture.

Assign it as a digger , in such a postion , that it leaves an 1 pixel wall in front of it ( again , as shown in the first picture ).

When it is low enough , assign it as a builder , in order to have it stop digging. It will stop building because of the 1 pixel wall of course. At the first frame , when it turns around , assign it as a basher , so it will start creating a basher tunnel ( as shown in the third picture ).

In Superlemmini , if you do it correctly , it will also remove a part of the 1 pixel wall as well ( as shown in the third picture in Superlemmini ) , and it will be able to make a complete basher tunnel , that the other lemmings will be able to cross it completely , because that 1 pixel wall will not be an obstacle anymore.

In Neolemmix that's not possible. The basher just can't remove that part of the 1 pixel wall , when you assign it as a basher , at the first frame , when it turns around ( as shown in the third picture from Neolemmix ) . It won't be able to make a complete basher tunnel ( like the one it made in Superlemmini ) , because the 1 pixel wall will be still an obstacle for the other lemmings.

You can also , perform the same trick , by replacing the basher with a miner .In that case the results will be the same. In Superlemmini the miner , again will remove a part of the 1 pixel wall , in Neolemmix it won't be able to remove it.

The reason that this happens , is a small difference in the placement of the terrain-destruction mask of bashers and miners between the two engines.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 08:53:38 PM by Turrican »
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Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2021, 08:41:54 PM »
Here are for replays , that showcase both the basher and the miner versions , of the trick that I've described in my previous post , for both Neolemmix and Superlemmini.

So if you also want to see how the miner version of the trick works , you can see it from these replays.

The replays have been taken from onml Tame 1. ( For the Superlemmini version , the replay is from Tame 1 from onml remastered version ) .
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 09:02:11 PM by Turrican »
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Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2021, 10:26:44 PM »
Also here are in video form , the basher and the miner version of the trick , that I described in my two previous posts , for both Superlemmini and Neolemmix , uploaded on youtube by ericderkovits :

Basher trick , Superlemmini version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ2s6unLYS8

Basher trick , Neolemmix version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ul3DjBZK8

Miner trick , Superlemmini version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdPBaNbWNik

Miner trick , Neolemmix version :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7dLD-A8Ml0


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Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2021, 05:10:43 AM »
Thanks for uploading these, Turrican. I've added this one to the OP.

P.S. I know you're pushed for time, so pictures and a description are more than sufficient :thumbsup:

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2021, 08:31:44 PM »
ok, I wanted to show the difference in NL and SL with the bashers dealing with mild slopes. (Used the same level for both engines. HurtMePlenty 25-Metropolis)

IN Neolemmix bashers CAN bash mild slopes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZYb0nMup9I

IN Superlemmini bashers CAN'T bash mild slopes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh3OrM0--m4

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2021, 04:53:50 AM »
Thanks to eric, another one that I thought of testing: How many digger strokes it takes before a lemming can bash all the way through.

In Neolemmix:

A digger needs to dig at least 5 strokes before he can bash

However, in Superlemmini:

A digger needs to dig at least 6 strokes before he can bash
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2021, 11:53:02 AM »
ok, I wanted to show the difference in NL and SL with the bashers dealing with mild slopes.

How many digger strokes it takes before a lemming can bash all the way through.

Both of these things are more than likely due to the hi/low-res physics differences; I'll investigate this further before adding them to the OP 8-)

Offline namida

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2021, 12:00:03 AM »
Quote
Both of these things are more than likely due to the hi/low-res physics differences; I'll investigate this further before adding them to the OP 8-)

NL's basher is a lot more sensitive than most ports/clones, so it's very likely an actual difference on the "how far to dig" one at least.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2021, 04:13:47 AM »
ok here are 3 videos showings the lemmings reunion hurt me plenty 25(Metropolis) taking 2 bashers to get thru mild slope(Need there to solve level)

1) Lemmini version (notice it takes 2 bashers to get through(therefore the level has 3 bashers instead of 2 like NL)
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eXx5QzfH8k

2) Superlemmini vesrion (again same as regular lemmini takes 2 bashers to get through thus my SL version also has 3 bashers matching regular Lemmini
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ude7hx3r-Vk

NOTE: since my Superlemmini conversion of Reunion had 1 extra miner (I will now put -1 miner since now the extra miner is not needed). so Now only 1 miner in level instead of 2.

3) Neolemmix version (ok, in NL it does'nt require the 2nd basher to get through the mild slope. Notice in NL there is only 2 bashers not 3 as in Lemmini and Superlemmini)
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4wZGFwrgcU

So since NL and SL(reg. Lemmini) differ in the number of bashers in this level, there is a physics difference with bashers dealing with small slopes(suggest to put in OP). Also see Namida's post above.


Edit: since Reunion is from Icho, I'm sure if you ask him about the basher thing with mild slopes(since he did both in Lemmini and Neolemmix which differs in number of bashers, he can also
confirm this to you. also refer to Reunion's hurt me plenty 25(Metropolis) so he knows what he is looking at.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 05:16:50 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2021, 04:58:28 AM »
It's definitely a difference in basher mechanics rather than one concerning low-res vs high-res. Indeed, I tested with NL high-res, and it will still only require one basher for the slope in the level.

Also see this, starting at reply #2: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4871.msg83393#msg83393. This is definitely one where the basher mechanics differences between NL and SL really shows. The level is much easier in NL, but it's considerably harder on SL. The level has since been fixed because it was originally impossible, and Tsyu has since confirmed that the basher mechanics are indeed different in Amiga, which SL seems to emulate in most cases, vs, say, Dos. I haven't played Ron Stodard's pack in Dos yet, but I'm convinced that the level's solution is easier to pull off on Dos. Also the clock is slower, so I'm guessing it's possible to finish with more than a second remaining.
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Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2021, 12:09:19 PM »
In Superlemmini you can do the following trick:

Start building with a lemming , then with a second lemming , do the "blocker turns bulder" trick.

If you position the blocker in the correct way , it can turn the builder in such a way , that the other lemmings that are crossing the bridge , won't be able to turn around and follow the builder.

This is possible in Superlemmini , but as far as I know it's not possible in Neolemmix.

This can benefit you , because you can have the crowd contained ( as shown in the pictures and the replay , that I have posted ), while the builder continues to build a large bridge for example , uninterrupted. Now if you want to "release" the crowd , so they can follow the builder , you can do it by using a builder , the way it is shown in the replay , that I have posted.

The replay that I have posted is from Tame 9 , from the Dos conversion of onml.
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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2021, 03:54:35 PM »
I already knew about this. And actually I don't like it as it affects levels where one needs to place a blocker at the end of of another builder building where the lemmings need to follow. Especially left-facing ones. In fact I was having trouble with Danger 26 from the newly converted Lemmings Plus 1 pack. In this level it requires 2 spots where one has to place a blocker on the end of builder steps while another lemming is building to turn around the builder.
And it was rather annoying to solve the level.

In NL's version of this same level it's much easier to place blockers at the end of builder steps to turn around the builder while building even left-facing ones.

So as a result of this I like NL"s version of this better.




Offline WillLem

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2021, 11:12:40 PM »
If you position the blocker in the correct way , it can turn the builder in such a way , that the other lemmings that are crossing the bridge , won't be able to turn around and follow the builder.

This is possible in Superlemmini , but as far as I know it's not possible in Neolemmix.

So as a result of this I like NL"s version of this better.

I'm about 50/50 with this one; I can see how it's beneficial to use the trick to separate a worker, but then it also ends up costing another builder to free the crowd anyway, so... it's swings and roundabouts, really.

Added this to the OP.

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2021, 02:24:58 PM »
Here is another trick (triple-basher canceling) : In superlemmini , you can have three bashers cancel each other , in a way , that will leave the terrain in a "small staircase shape" , and will help you complete a level like onml Tame 9 , by using only four bashers!

How to setup it : Load tame 9 , use release rate 88 for the space between the first and the second lemming , and release rate 99 for the space between the second and the third lemming.

When the first lemming reach the left wall , assign it as a basher . When the second lemming arrive in the basher's tunnel , you will see it's positioning  having it a little higher that the first lemming for a few frames . Assign it as a basher , but only at the fame when it's position is at the highest pixel. It will start bashing , but in higher height , compared to the first lemming. Then the third lemming will find itself in the same height as the second lemming. Assign it quickly as a basher.

If you do it correctly , the third and the second bashers , both will cancel each other , and then the first basher , will immidiately stop bashing too. As a result , you wil lhave a "small staircase shape" at that part of the terrain , and you can use a fourth basher to lead the other lemmings to the exit.

Because this is a more complex trick that the previous ones , I have mentioned here , instead of pictures , I will post here a link for a video , where I use this trick to complete tame 9 with four bashers.

Here is the link for the video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U7onAoo-9I

Also I have attached in this post , the replay of that solution. It is from Tame 9 , from the Dos conversion of onml.

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Offline namida

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2021, 08:58:11 PM »
Quote
[Builder-blocker 1px diagonal gap] is possible in Superlemmini , but as far as I know it's not possible in Neolemmix.

In NeoLemmix this was considered to be a bug and intentionally changed to not happen.

Regarding the above multi-basher staircase thing: It's possible on NeoLemmix too; I used it in several of my SYCLW challenge results. You may need more bashers than on SL to create a similar staircase, though, due to NL's basher being far more sensitive.

Offline Turrican

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Re: Physics differences between SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2021, 09:27:18 PM »
Regarding the above multi-basher staircase thing: It's possible on NeoLemmix too; I used it in several of my SYCLW challenge results. You may need more bashers than on SL to create a similar staircase, though, due to NL's basher being far more sensitive.

I know it. The central point of my post , was not these staircases , that are possible in both engines , but the easy and fast 3-basher canceling , that can be achieved , due to the bashers , not be so sensitive.
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