I recently brought up the idea of having records topics for SuperLemmini (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5342.new;topicseen#new), and I was asked by Gronkling on Discord whether there are any physics differences which may affect challenge results.
I am aware of some differences already, but I thought it might be worthwhile to investigate further and document as many as I can find. Some of these differences may affect challenge results, but others are unlikely to make any significant difference. Either way, it's interesting to see how the engines differ.
So, here are the differences that I'm aware of. Please comment if you know of any others and I'll add them to this list.
Levels in NeoLemmix have deadly sides and tops (i.e. the lemming will disappear off the edge of the screen if they reach the extreme side or top of a level, and will exit the level as a lost lemming), whereas in SuperLemmini they are non-deadly. This is significant because not only are sides and tops no longer a threat, but they can be used to turn lemmings around.
Somewhat bizarrely, when a lemming builds to the top of a level in SuperLemmini, they stop building and walk forwards, which is of course different from building into a terrain ceiling (which turns the lemming around, as normal, in both engines).
SuperLemmini uses high-resolution physics, and so displays twice the number of frames per second (FPS) as NeoLemmix. This means that even finer framestep positioning is possible, with lemmings moving forward in smaller increments per frame.
Also, graphics themselves are twice the resolution, so detail on the edges of terrain is finer, and lemmings can interact with every pixel, i.e. each pixel in the graphic translates to an actual pixel in the physics. Whether or not this would make any actual significant differences to level solutions is debatable, but the difference is there.
Another one that's best shown visually. In NeoLemmix, steel is steel - it cannot be destroyed under any circumstances (this is one of the things I love about NeoLemmix (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4748.msg81069#msg81069)).
Note in this NeoLemmix example that 2 Bombers have been used to create the first crater in the platform, and the second has been created by a Digger. Both craters show destruction right up to the edge of the steel, and it's necessary to use a Climber to exit the digger pit:
(https://i.imgur.com/BC2P78s.png)
By contrast, performing the same actions in SuperLemmini produces a completely different result. The second Bomber has blown a crater in the steel, whilst the Digger was stopped several pixels short of where the edge of the steel is, meaning that the lemmings can simply walk straight out of the digger pit:
(https://i.imgur.com/kvlPh47.png)
Similarly, in this level it's possible to dig and bash through the edge of the steel in SuperLemmini, provided some part of the skill path is in contact with a substantial enough amount of terrain (this means that 100% is possible in Compression Method 1):
(https://i.imgur.com/hBK96J3.png)
Whereas, in NeoLemmix, this is not possible:
(https://i.imgur.com/0SzPO9x.png)
I prefer NeoLemmix steel to be honest; it makes more sense and is far more predictable. But, the more oddly-behaved "classic steel" in SuperLemmini means that alternative solutions may be possible.
Please note, this steel behaviour in SuperLemmini can be disabled from the 1.43 Editor, and the steel areas can be resized independently to fit the blocks exactly, so that SuperLemmini steel behaves exactly like it does in NeoLemmix. This means that levels can be edited so that the steel differences are nonexistent, however since NeoLemmix does not allow classic steel behaviour at all, it can be considered a fundamental difference between the two engines (albeit one which can be manually tweaked user-side). Furthermore, since SuperLemmini "(un)officially" presents the original games with classic steel enabled, this is how the levels are intended to be played in that engine, and challenge rules normally state that levels cannot be edited anyway.
In SuperLemmini, if assigned in just the right place (margin of error is about 3-4 frames), a Miner will land on the opposite site of a 1-pixel gap, as if they've "stepped over" it. This is most likely a bug, however I can see why it might make sense were it to be intended. The Miner leans forward as they strike, and then steps onto the available terrain in front of them. It could be argued that their forward-momentum is what has carried them over the gap.
It's also worth noting that in most engines, Miners can "float" in mid-air for a frame or two when they reach the end of a block of terrain, in a similar manner to Digger physics. The difference is that, for just 1 frame, they are still moving forward (whereas the Digger is moving downwards) It's possible that this "1-frame's-grace" is what allows the lemming's position to move past the gap in engines where the bug is unchecked.
Here's visual confirmation of the action having happened:
(https://i.imgur.com/qB2qI96.png?1)
Needless to say, this behaviour is not replicable in NeoLemmix, having been treated as a bug and fixed.
The classic trick of using 3 Builders close together to form a "Blocker" (which happens due to the bridges forming a vertical "wall" of >7 pixels) is enough to contain Climbers in NeoLemmix. However, in SuperLemmini, they are able to climb up the >7 pixel "wall" and hoist themselves over it.
Again, this is one I'd probably suggest makes some sense, since the part of the bridges being climbed is towards the shallower end of the slope, where there is nothing above the "wall" stopping a Climber from transitioning to hoister. I'd be interested to know how this behaviour gets corrected in NeoLemmix, and will note it here.
Here's the behaviour in action:
(https://i.imgur.com/WCQMmsL.png?1)(https://i.imgur.com/Mqm7CGr.png?1)
Incidentally, it's also present in Amiga physics:
(https://i.imgur.com/QtaEqRl.png?1)
In SuperLemmini, Bashers and Miners can mutually cancel, regardless of direction.
Here is a video showing them cancelling each other when moving in the same direction (https://youtu.be/NMJXv0S0aBQ?t=93). And here is one showing them cancelling each other from opposite directions (https://youtu.be/06dKxkuwx48?t=25).
As far as I'm aware, neither is possible in NeoLemmix (I haven't managed to recreate the behaviour), but I could be wrong about this. If so, I will of course remove this item from the list.
Another fairly important one. In the following example, it takes 2 fewer Builders to reach the overhead platform in SuperLemmini than in NeoLemmix. This is most likely due to stricter Builder checks in the latter (images supplied by Turrican):
(https://i.imgur.com/7luEbmI.jpg)
SuperLemmini - 5 Builders used
(https://i.imgur.com/E2Xk5xz.jpg?2)
NeoLemmix - 7 Builders used
You know the one; left-facing Builders don't reach quite as far. I always wondered what caused this, and it turns out that the left-facing lemmings place their first brick 1 pixel further back than right-facing lemmings.
NeoLemmix corrects this behaviour, allowing Builders to reach the same distance in both directions (images supplied by Turrican):
(https://i.imgur.com/efghuhC.jpg?2)
NeoLemmix - both Builders start their bridges flush with the wall
(https://i.imgur.com/kaPlhfs.jpg?1)
SuperLemmini - the left-facing Builders starts their bridge 1px further back
This one's bizarre. Basically, in SuperLemmini it's possible to bash underneath a Blocker that's standing on a Builder staircase such that a) the Blocker is freed from duty, and b) the staircase is not completely destroyed, and can still be used by subsequent lemmings:
(https://i.imgur.com/1RJ28Zr.png?1)
In NeoLemmix, it's possible to do the same thing but only whilst the staircase is under construction:
(https://i.imgur.com/oUdIjQx.png?1)
If you try to do it when the staircase is completed, the Basher goes all the way through the staircase, thus destroying it:
(https://i.imgur.com/2DMuDcl.png?1)
Best guess is that this is to do with the differences in high and low-res physics coupled with Basher terrain checks. Every single pixel in NeoLemmix translates to 4 square pixels in SuperLemmini, so terrain checks can be more strict, and Bashers can (and invariably do) stop bashing sooner than they would in NeoLemmix.
More on this particular point (i.e. Basher terrain checks) later, there are some differences here that are particularly interesting, especially when it comes to bashing towards steel, and Builder bridges in general.
In SuperLemmini, Bashers and Miners are capable of taking out 1px worth of terrain from behind them on the first swing, thus:
(https://i.imgur.com/GmfFbTF.jpg) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ2s6unLYS8)
Click the image to see a video of this in action
Whereas, NeoLemmix Bashers and Miners only destroy terrain ahead of them:
(https://i.imgur.com/oZl5nTZ.jpg) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ul3DjBZK8)
Click the image to see a video of this in action
Depending on how you look at it, this is either a bug or a bonus. I'd say it's a bonus, since both the Basher and the Miner animations start with a "backswing", so in many ways, it makes sense that they would affect whatever terrain is immediately behind them as well.
In Superlemmini, if you position the "blocker turns builder" trick just right (or wrong, depending on perspective/situation), it can turn the builder in such a way that the other lemmings won't be able to follow the builder. This makes it a useful worker separation/crowd-control tactic, albeit one which requires the use of an extra Builder to free the crowd.
In NeoLemmix, the bridge always connects fully at the point that the Builder is turned, and therefore requires the use of a destructive skill or another Blocker to stop the crowd from following the worker.
(https://i.imgur.com/uApk1F4.jpg)
Thanks to Turrican and ericderkovits for supplying images, replays and videos.
This is a topic , that I would really like to participate , but unfortunately I have little time for anything lemmings related , the last months. Also I am doing some "Lemmix to Neolemmix" level conversions , and some of the converted levels , contain some tricks , that are Not possible in Neolemmix ( with more to come ).
So first of all : In Superlemmini , a basher and a miner can cancel each other , if you time them correctly. This applies if the basher and the miner are facing at the opposite direction , and if they are facing at the same direction. In both cases the miner and the basher can cancel each other.
There are two levels that I have converted , that showcase both these tricks ( the second can be solved , without that trick , but the replay of my solution includes the trick ). The converted levels are : "Rush hour" by Tseug , and "The Isle of Skye" by Gronkling
Another trick: Do you have a lemming , that it needs to cross an area that has a 1-pixel gap at the floor? No problem! When it is at the edge of the 1-pixel gap , assign it a miner at the correct frame , and it will surpass it.
Levels that I have converted , that showcase this trick : "Not Quite!" by Tseug , and "Trading and Cooperating" by Geoo
Also in Superlemmini , a climber can surpass by climbing , objects like a "3 builder wall" for example.
I am sure , I can find more differences between the two engines , but I need to find time to experiment.
Number 2 is actually a case of NeoLemmix Editor not converting the level properly (I did it hastily and without knowing how to use the new editor). In the original SuperLemmini version, the pixels aren't diagonally opposing each others, they are "glued" together, because lemmings do walk through diagonally opposite pixels. It's in fact while making this level that I learned about this and I didn't wanted the lemmings to die so early in the level because of an optical illusion of some sort.
Confirmed. Thanks for clarifying this, Lana! I double-checked (pun intended ;P) by creating the following:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zun3238.png)
So, the OP has been updated accordingly.
I don't know how the NeoLemmix Editor works when converting a SuperLemmini level to a NeoLemmix one, but my assumption is that it reorganize the tiles on a grid maybe? It's probably my fault too, since I never used the newer version of the NeoLemmix Editor. Sorry for all of this.
No need to apologise at all, it's not your fault. The editor does handle things slightly differently when converting to NXLV, I noticed a few objects moved 1 pixel to the right during the Amiga Lemmings conversion project.
Also, your level has helped to clarify that SuperLemmini is, in fact, consistent with Amiga physics on this particular point, so thank you! :thumbsup:
However, I can't seem to recreate the first of these (i.e. Bashers and Miners cancelling each other). If anyone has a replay which demonstrates this in action, I'd be grateful to see it.
Both tricks are present in the replays of two of the levels that I have converted. These levels are "Rush hour" by Tseug , and "The Isle of Skye" by Gronkling
Links for these two levels and their replays :
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.msg86502#msg86502
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.msg86643#msg86643
I've found another one, but I'm not sure exactly what the difference is here. In the Bonus level "Don't Make The Wrong Choice", NeoLemmix makes it possible for a single Builder to bridge the gap near the end, making a 100% save possible:
(https://i.imgur.com/9SOPTQN.png?1)
However, in the SuperLemmini version, it requires 2 Builders to cross the gap no matter where the first Builder is placed (I've tried!), meaning that it's only possible to save 49/50:
(https://i.imgur.com/ghj0u2Z.png?1)
This video (https://youtu.be/qwKd_2zE6WI?t=123) shows that the gap requires 2 Builders on the Amiga version as well (the player uses only 1 Builder to traverse a similar gap at the other side of the level, so it's likely they will have attempted the same on this side; the gap at the other side can be traversed with 1 Builder in all versions AFAIK).
I'm aware that LVL-to-NXLV conversion can cause displacements of objects by 1 or 2 pixels, but I'm not sure whether the same happens with terrain.
If so, it could simply be that the level conversion itself has made it possible for a single Builder to bridge the gap, and if not then it could point to another fundamental difference in the physics.