Author Topic: [DISC][Player] Slider behavior where there is a small gap between wall and floor  (Read 378 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
If you let a slider slide down a wall and the wall just ends close the the floor, he won't turn around into the little wall gap actually and just walk on. Visualization: See attachment.

Is this intended or a bug? ???  I would have expected him to go to the left in the attached example level.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 11:40:44 PM by namida »

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 1596
  • #SaveTheGrenader
    • View Profile
Re: [BUG?][Player] Slider does not turn after sliding down walls
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2020, 01:07:42 AM »
It looks to me like it's because he doesn't transition to a faller (or rather his feet check the ground before his hands check the bottom edge of the wall), and so he is still facing away from the wall.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11277
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [BUG?][Player] Slider does not turn after sliding down walls
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2020, 02:18:54 AM »
^ That was my guess from just reading the report, too (I haven't actually looked at the level yet).

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11277
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [BUG?][Player] Slider does not turn after sliding down walls
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2020, 11:30:21 PM »
After actually looking at this, I could see valid arguments for either behavior. My personal preference is the existing behavior. What does everyone else think?

Reclassified this from "bug" to "discussion" accordingly.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 11:40:58 PM by namida »

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1454
  • #FourMoreSkills ;D
    • View Profile
Okay, I've looked at it, and the logic seems to be "if the Slider can 'dangle' from the ceiling, he will keep going in the direction he was facing while sliding; if not, he will turn around".

So the question the player would have to ask themselves is: "Is this gap high enough so that the Slider could transition into a Shimmier?"

In this case, the answer is no, because the Shimmier would turn into a Walker right away, due to his feet touching the ground. Therefore, one could argue the Slider's feet touch the ground immediately as well, as soon as he reaches the bottom of his slide. Therefore, he turns around even though there is a small gap he could walk into.

Therefore, I'm fine with the current behaviour, too.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 1596
  • #SaveTheGrenader
    • View Profile
+1 for current behaviour, for pretty much all the reasons mentioned by Strato.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
I would be ok with that as well.

If he cannot dangle he doesn't turn and just walks along.

Be reminded though: Then you could make narrow horizontal passsges into a slider wall where the slider won't go into. As a result the lemming would then just fall after he doesn't "fit" into the passage.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
Ok, a thing that confuses me now:

If a slider shall stop and not turn when there is only a small gap in the wall he is sliding down, then why does he turn and go inside a small crack in the wall like at 37:14 in WillLems video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIgv9H3tIIs

With the previous explanation I would exapect him to not turn and simply fall down as he cannot dangle here.

Now the floor case seems to be a complete exception from the rule as a slider does indeed fit into small holes in a wall, but not into a small hole near a floor.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11277
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Hm... perhaps what's needed is for the Slider to always have a foot check too (as even ignoring other concerns, I feel a bit iffy about how he climbs into that gap in this video). Currently there is a foot check for water, or for bottom-of-wall terrain (going away from the wall), but not for gaps in the wall - that's only a hand check.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4183
    • View Profile
Just to clarify: what effect would that have on situations like the one in that level? I have no attachment at all to that particular level, but I do believe strongly that in that situation, a Slider should stop and walk into any size gap. After all, lemmings are notorious for their ability to squeeze through 1-pixel gaps, and it would be enough to stop a Climber.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11277
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
The lemming would remain able to slip into that gap, it just wouldn't first slide past it (then move back up as an ascender), instead just directly stepping into it.

Perhaps the foot check should specifically be: "If there is a nonsolid pixel, with a solid pixel immediately below it, step into the gap". The question still remains - if it is a gap at a floor, which direction should the lemming go? I still feel that either answer has valid reasons, though perhaps "walk towards (and under) the wall" has better puzzle potential...

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 1596
  • #SaveTheGrenader
    • View Profile
I concur, the lemming should walk forwards. Watching the video back, I was in fact expecting the walk-into-the-gap behaviour, so it makes sense for this to also apply to gaps at floor level (otherwise there are too many "rules" to learn).

It also keeps it consistent with "Sliders walk forwards when landing," in general.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
The other option would be:

A slider always goes into a gap inside the wall even if the gap is on floor level.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11277
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
In the next build, sliders will cleanly walk into a gap in the wall if they encounter one (provided that it is small enough that they don't become a faller due to the hand check failing first - though in this case they would still fall into the gap anyway). This applies even during the dehoister phase, and applies even if they reach a flat ground (ie: they will only walk away from the wall if the wall connects with the ground).