Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings  (Read 4946 times)

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Offline Flopsy

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Hey everyone,

While watching a lot of speed runs on Youtube recently, I thought to myself that Lemmings is not very well represented in the speed run category.
It then dawned on me that Lemmings is very restrained in the original ports by how fast it could be completed because the levels could only run at x1 speed.

I then thought to myself I could possibly speed run Lemmings in Neo Lemmix due to the fast forward and frame skip hotkeys.
Also all of the v1.48 updates like builder, miner, digger, basher masks could help out here.

I feel that Neo Lemmix in comparison to the original Lemmings 1991 games has many differences such that a speed run now in Neo Lemmix will be considerably faster than playing the game on the original ports.

So I've compiled nxps of Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings using the v1.48 Flexi toolkit and will be speed running both games.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 08:12:25 AM by Minim »
Flopsy's YouTube Channel

SEB Lems (160 levels)
MegSEGAbytes (40 levels)
Modular Lems (10 level minipack)
Gotta Go Fast (NEW 189 level pack as of Sept 2021)
The Flopsy Disk Drive (53 level pack of unused levels)

Offline namida

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2016, 09:07:15 PM »
Quote
So I've compiled nxps of Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings using the v1.48 Flexi toolkit and will be speed running both games.

Why not use the existing ones?
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2016, 09:20:38 PM »
It's not entirely true that "the original ports" didn't have fast-forward; the Mac version has it, for one, though it's an undocumented feature that the user was left to discover for themselves (as also was walker-only select).

No question, though, that overall the NeoLemmix features will be a great help 8-)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2016, 11:47:58 PM »
Best of luck! 8-) Fast forward and frame skip should be helpful to both player and viewer, though unless you really want to challenge yourself, I suspect there will still be many tedious parts where you might not be able quite stay completely in fast forward throughout, like building long bridges.  (I guess it depends on how much faster is the fast forward in NeoLemmix.  2x is probably doable but probably not something like 10x.)

Offline namida

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2016, 04:50:28 AM »
NL's fast forward is 3x. Frameskips can be more useful here - in particular, the 10sec frameskip is just slightly shorter than the duration it takes for a builder to finish; a 5sec frameskip also exists by default, and it is possible to configure custom frameskip keys of any duration the user wants - the precision allowed is to the frame, not just to the second, and negative durations (ie: backwards skip) is allowed too. On top of this, it is possible to assign skills in fast forward, and doing so does not cancel fast forward mode.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Nepster

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2016, 10:04:50 AM »
NL's fast forward is 3x.
I haven't looked at the code, but according to my experiments with the current NL version, fast forward is almost 6x.

Offline namida

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2016, 10:18:58 AM »
Ah, I must be remembering old (possibly redundant) code. Indeed, in the current code, NL's fast forward will run at up to 6x normal speed (if the limit of what the hardware can handle means it won't reach 6x, it will just run as fast as possible without skipping any frames).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline mobius

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2016, 09:30:39 PM »
wait, the best engine to do this on is the WinLems 95, on a modern computer.

:( well I would've been funny to post a video so you could see but I can't find one atm. Basically; the FF on WinLems, only if you are playing on a modern computer; causes the game to move at like 500% faster, so 10 minutes goes by in like 5 seconds.

I'm joking of course; this makes it unusable. :P
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline Flopsy

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 09:48:25 AM »
The Original Lemmings Speed Run is now live

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJsVX6nMdQ&feature=youtu.be

Resolution is lower than my usual videos, only goes up to 480p but it's still good quality.
Flopsy's YouTube Channel

SEB Lems (160 levels)
MegSEGAbytes (40 levels)
Modular Lems (10 level minipack)
Gotta Go Fast (NEW 189 level pack as of Sept 2021)
The Flopsy Disk Drive (53 level pack of unused levels)

Online Simon

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 03:52:01 PM »
I have raced single L1 ranks against geoo in Dos L1, but never the entire game. Good perseverance. 8-)

Depending on seriousness, you might memorize optimized routes for nontrivial levels. Painful time loss on Kessel, it's impossible to gain that much back with cool tricks. Good that Kessel stayed the only reset-heavy level.

Be bold. Don't pause to think. Instead, framestep-back if you have thought too long. This doesn't seem like much, but it adds up in every single level. You like precise skill assignments, but in real-time attack, you can't afford to pause for most.

Fast-forward is too slow for running. You might want something in between fast-forward and the 10-second skip. Make a 1- or 2-second-skip. NL allows fine-grained control.

The 10-second-skip is almost too fast; It's for long walking, builders, and end-of-level mashing. You look like you have a good feel for how long the 10-second skip is for walkers, very nice.

Don't bomb extraneous blockers at end of level; press Esc. Or instead mash 10-second-skip, nuke with hotkey, and mash 10-second skip. In general, don't click on the panel; use hotkeys for skill selection. The default NL keys are horrible, spread out all over the keyboard. Consider making your own layout. No matter what you invent, it will be better than the default layout. Learning a different set of keys will nuke your performance at first, it's your call whether re-learning is worth it.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 04:16:52 PM by Simon »

Offline Nepster

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2016, 05:37:06 PM »
The 10-second-skip is almost too fast; It's for long walking, builders, and end-of-level mashing. You look like you have a good feel for how long the 10-second skip is for walkers, very nice.
Better use a 11-second skip: The builder will just have finished when the time-skip ends.

In general, don't click on the panel; use hotkeys for skill selection. The default NL keys are horrible, spread out all over the keyboard. Consider making your own layout. No matter what you invent, it will be better than the default layout. Learning a different set of keys will nuke your performance at first, it's your call whether re-learning is worth it.
Note though that a good speed-run layout for L1 will likely differ from a good general-purpose layout: For a speedrun you probably need a lot more time-skip hotkeys on very convenient keys, but can omit all hotkeys for the new skills. On the other hand, a general-purpose layout will likely have skills and pause on the most convenient skills and fast-forward resp. time-skip farther away. 
So if you don't want to get too serious with speed-running and use a general-purpose layout instead, then perhaps keeping your fingers on the time-skip hotkeys and selecting the skills with the mouse is faster. After all you would rather select a skill with the mouse than wait for four second for the lemming to reach the correct position.

One more idea for getting faster (though you might consider this cheating ;P):
For repeat levels, already solve the easy version in a way that works as well for the hard one. Then save the replay and when you get to the hard version, load this replay, click away the warning message that the level ID isn't correct and hit a 10min-frameskip to solve the repeat.
This way you still have to solve the hard level, but trade solving the easy version with just loading a replay. I guess this is a lot faster than playing through longer levels like Steel Mines of Kessel or Curse of the Pharaohs (resp. their easier counterparts).

Offline Flopsy

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2016, 07:02:48 PM »
One more idea for getting faster (though you might consider this cheating ;P):
For repeat levels, already solve the easy version in a way that works as well for the hard one. Then save the replay and when you get to the hard version, load this replay, click away the warning message that the level ID isn't correct and hit a 10min-frameskip to solve the repeat.
This way you still have to solve the hard level, but trade solving the easy version with just loading a replay. I guess this is a lot faster than playing through longer levels like Steel Mines of Kessel or Curse of the Pharaohs (resp. their easier counterparts).

I would consider loading replays as cheating, good suggestion though.
Flopsy's YouTube Channel

SEB Lems (160 levels)
MegSEGAbytes (40 levels)
Modular Lems (10 level minipack)
Gotta Go Fast (NEW 189 level pack as of Sept 2021)
The Flopsy Disk Drive (53 level pack of unused levels)

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2016, 11:31:08 PM »
Somewhat related suggestion:

The framestepping/replay saving could make the game good for TASing if there's some way of playing back an entire level pack's worth of replays without loading each individual one.

Offline Flopsy

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Re: Neo Lemmix Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2016, 12:52:45 AM »
Here is a fixed version of the nxp I used for my speed run of Orig Lemmings

It fixes all of the left facing trapdoors I encountered.

Happy speed running :)

Let me know if any issues arise in this nxp!
Flopsy's YouTube Channel

SEB Lems (160 levels)
MegSEGAbytes (40 levels)
Modular Lems (10 level minipack)
Gotta Go Fast (NEW 189 level pack as of Sept 2021)
The Flopsy Disk Drive (53 level pack of unused levels)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Speed Run of Original Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2022, 04:00:04 PM »
My speedrun results for NeoLemmix:

Lemmings

Full game: 58m 13s
Fun: 5m 27s
Tricky: 9m 33s
Taxing: 13m 56s
Mayhem: 22m 54s

The videos can be seen here :lemcat: