Author Topic: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 25.1.2020.  (Read 3697 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5133
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 3.1.2020.
« Reply #105 on: January 13, 2020, 11:27:55 am »
As I said, I needed to take a break this weekend.  I'm back.

The method in your videos isn't fast enough compared to DOS, for two key reasons:

1) You let the 3rd lemming out float much longer than minimum.  Since you can't start the sliding until at least after he lands, the later he lands, the less time you've left to get the safe landing ready.  The 3rd lemming out should ideally be assigned floater at last second.

2) In your method, the 3rd lemming out ends up the one that would build to trigger sliding.  In contrast, the DOS solution has the 2nd lemming out wound up ahead of the 1st lemming out, while the 3rd lemming out, upon landing, merges with the 1st (and those two gets slide up).  The 2nd lemming does the building to trigger the glitch.  This ends up faster because by the time 3rd lemming lands, the 2nd lemming is already ahead of him, and therefore can get to the column and start building sooner.

I think you will need to find a way to set up sliding that follows the two points above, in order to maximize the amount of time you have to get the safe landing ready.

I did not have a chance yet to dig out old backups to try to find my notes on the SNES release rate/timing information.  Will see if maybe I can get to it later today.

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 3.1.2020.
« Reply #106 on: January 13, 2020, 02:59:05 pm »
Quote
In your method, the 3rd lemming out ends up the one that would build to trigger sliding.  In contrast, the DOS solution has the 2nd lemming out wound up ahead of the 1st lemming out, while the 3rd lemming out, upon landing, merges with the 1st (and those two gets slide up).  The 2nd lemming does the building to trigger the glitch.  This ends up faster because by the time 3rd lemming lands, the 2nd lemming is already ahead of him, and therefore can get to the column and start building sooner.

Okay i see my problem thanks. I totally overlooked this because my all focus was just make perfect compression and im not figured out that 2nd lemmings will be ahead.

So we have to compress 1 & 3 lemmings and 2nd lemming make glitch.  Its sounds easy in theory.  I also overlooked DOS digger already. Its look when its comeout sametime as floater so its look just weird. However im not still never make succesfully compression using digger. I probably have look some things again.

But its seems its most important take 3rd lemming floater much more close to land and make focus how compress 1 & 3 lemmings and 2nd lemmings hav to space much enought perform glitch. But its fact i can´t copy DOS method perfectly because basher have to take longer distance and its requires 3 build brick. But i have to manipulate 1 & 2 floaters and make all focus with this. Not sure will releaserate like DOS working, but let see.

EDIT:
Looking DOS strategy little bit better, but i find so much techincal trouble and its will be really hard fixed those alls on SNES.

1: 3 build brick confused me so much. DOS can turn lemming with two ones.
2: Its seems DOS releaserate is way too high and cannot drop it fast enought when im unpaused.  Thats make it impossible compress 1 & 3 lemmings.
3: Rightnow its not come even close make DOS method working. Its will requires huge changes compress 1 & 3.

EDIT:
My method yesterdays compress 1 & 2 look really working, but like you said its not quick enought save falling lemmings. How ever working SNES method could be more like this, but 3rd floater timer have to be lower than my video. So that requires some manipulations with 1 & 2.

But rightnow my ideas started are empty. I´ll back if i got more information or figured out something which could work.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 05:13:59 pm by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 3.1.2020.
« Reply #107 on: January 13, 2020, 10:50:38 pm »
Mayhem 10
Another jump method. This make two brick, but thats seems some potential rightnow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGkU0tnq4jk

I´ll look out how this could work.

EDIT:
Yeah this method working.:thumbsup: Two lemmings lost. Its will little bit change level itself like this climber. I have to looking other things better.

EDIT:
Here it is 97% (73/75 saved) Confirmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHIYiw1Qic

I have to make some research and start real console attempts. But yeah that was brutal like Mayhem 2. A lot pixel timings everywhere. Im done it.8-) And i confrim it. But yeah its will requires a lot research how i did those releaserates with starting. IIRC. I did it pretty much same way as DOS. Only change come when i break this wall and take slide glitch building back.

HERE is whole tutorial. Its save even one more builder than first attempt
Mayhem 10 73/75 (97% guide). I did it in 5 parts. Next i have make this all hard in one go my console.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gIBHU4L8nQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaO9Zhi5lFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbSceZyu1cQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkyyUAzfb3g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-JFGSmNg4
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 12:05:48 am by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 3.1.2020.
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2020, 03:10:11 am »
Here it is. Mayhem 10 Pillar of Hercules 9707 points (2 lemmings lost and 30 skills used)
I did this my real SNES console system and yeah thats take me 4 hours attempts. Super hard level. Its use pretty much DOS route, but i have to change its little bit because basher working different. I accidentally got find perfect basher strategy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAlivB86dMA

Really happy with this.:thumbsup: Just counted this take me 142 failed console attempts. Its bit less than Boiler Room, but still a lot.

EDIT:
-Have to say. We are making really good progress and very big thanks Ccexplore who are help me a lot improve my records. Here is few levels remain yet.
Taxing 4 might my next progress. I look those miners working very well and also goal bug so if we can perform slide glitch 13 skills might are very possible on SNES. Here is still much troubles, because lemmings coming very different vs DOS and SNES. I personally not managed that slide completely on SNES, but its might requires more looking.

-DOS players might try confirm my Mayhem 1 27 skills solution. I am pretty sure its will working on DOS version too. I quickly look this level on DOS and there not seems are much version differences.

-About mayhem 6 9 skills could be probably theory possible on SNES, but its fact you can´t releaserated sharp like DOS. So this will be really hard progress.

BTW im also interested see just a minute levels replays. At least Just a minute part one. DOS 2 skills vs SNES 4 skills. I think 2 is definitely impossible on SNES, but how about 3 skills?

« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 10:27:48 am by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5133
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 14.1.2020.
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2020, 08:12:12 pm »
Good job on Mayhem 10! :thumbsup: I may actually need to look at the level for DOS again, I know the variation you used to setup sliding is possible but have not yet explored it in detail for DOS, looks like it may also help improve the record for DOS, or at least provide improvements to one of the other DOS challenges for this level.

Taxing 4 might my next progress. I look those miners working very well and also goal bug so if we can perform slide glitch 13 skills might are very possible on SNES. Here is still much troubles, because lemmings coming very different vs DOS and SNES. I personally not managed that slide completely on SNES, but its might requires more looking.

I have attached a tweaked version of the level for Lemmix that works a little closer to SNES, and also a 13-skill solution replay for that version that incorporated the execution improvements mentioned in a previous post.  To view the replay using the tweaked version of level instead of DOS original, download the 0304.lvl file into same folder as the LemmixPlayer.exe, then in the main menu, press F4 and then use the "3" key on the keyboard to toggle the "look for LVL files" settings to ON (and then press ESC to go back to main menu).  This would tell LemmixPlayer to load 0304.lvl for Taxing 4 instead of the original version.  I've added an animated flag to the tweaked version of level, on the right outside of the main area of level; you can look for that flag to confirm it is the tweaked version of level that was loaded into Lemmix.

The main differences addressed by tweak version of level is to move the entrances slightly so the lemmings come out exactly same places as on SNES (otherwise they come out a pixel further right on SNES as compared to DOS), and also to fix the order in which lemmings come out so that it is SNES's left-right-left-right, instead of DOS's left-right-right-left.  It cannot account for the SNES basher reaching one pixel further, so on actual SNES you need to compensate for that, by making the lemming that digs and bashes start digging one pixel further left than depicted in Lemmix replay.

The release rate changes is to change to 54 after 8th lemming comes out, and then to 56 after 32nd lemming comes out.  (Around the time of 32nd lemming out is also when you soon needed to assign builder to 30th lemming, so you can use that as a reference for when to change to 56.)  The 30th lemming that comes out will end up doing the building that eventually triggers sliding glitch, and 34th lemming out will get slid up.  You must use that 30th lemming to ensure correct timing; track it by eye as soon as it comes out so you can tell it is that lemming (and not someone else) when it reaches the exact spot it needs to build from.  Almost all of the builders used in the solution must be placed pixel-perfect locations, including where you assign builder to 30th lemming (which may be a little hard to see in the replay since it's so close to the basher at that moment).

While this method avoids the problems with the hangman trap, there are still two small timing elements to be aware of:

1) On the left at the start where you turn the digger to a basher, you should assign the basher more on the late side, after lemming has dug down 9 times but before the 10th time.  This slight delay in making the assignment plays out later when you assign the 30th lemming out the builder, near where the basher also is at that time.  The goal is for the basher's stroke to take out parts of the bridge started by that 30th lemming, so that other lemmings will go under the bridge instead of on it.  That way they can actually reach the step that they can do sliding from.  If basher is assigned too early, not enough of the first brick of the bridge will be taken out, and other lemmings would just end up walking on top of the bridge, and cannot do sliding.

It is unfortunate this timing remains, but it should be slightly more forgiving compared to original DOS replay using the blocker, where the timing of the basher assignment also directly affects the timing of successfully sliding up 34th lemming out and would need to be frame-perfect.

2) Although you no longer have the danger of the hangman trap, near the end where you build up to the ceiling slope created by miner, if you have bad timing, some lemmings may get stuck at the moment the last build brick is laid down that touches the lower boundary of the ceiling there.  This is a much smaller time window of danger compared with building over the hangman trap like in the original DOS solution, but it means you still have to be a little careful in when you assign that builder, to avoid hitting the bad timing.

About mayhem 6 9 skills could be probably theory possible on SNES, but its fact you can´t releaserated sharp like DOS. So this will be really hard progress.

BTW im also interested see just a minute levels replays. At least Just a minute part one. DOS 2 skills vs SNES 4 skills. I think 2 is definitely impossible on SNES, but how about 3 skills?

After some more analysis with Mayhem 6, my tentative conclusion is that the release rate changes in DOS solution are essential.  It is what creates enough distance between the digger and the crowd, so that the crowd doesn't overtake the digger before he has dug down far enough (and he has to do that digging further right than usual so that the steel [metal] can stop the digging).  Since those sharp release rate changes are not doable on SNES, you may instead be forced to leave the release rate pretty low throughout the solution, in which case you may end up running out of time (and then you may still have problem creating enough distance for the digger, now that you are much more restricted in what release rate values you could be using).  So at the moment I suspect it will be impossible to adapt DOS solution for Mayhem 6 to SNES.  If there is a 9-skill solution on SNES, it would likely look quite different from the current DOS one.

As for Just a Minute parts 1 and 2, looks like the Lemmix replay attachments were lost so I've added them here.  I'm pretty sure they cannot work on SNES.  The SNES timer runs down faster such that when on DOS/Lemmix it still says about 7 seconds left, on SNES you are already out of time.  The DOS solutions all have only maybe 1-3 seconds left on the timer if I recall correctly.  Also their sharp release rate changes are pretty essential I think.  I haven't analyzed thoroughly but I think those solutions implicitly rely on leaving the release rate mostly at 99, so that all the lemmings can come out well before the basher has gotten far enough to the right.  On SNES you can change release rate to 99 okay, but then you can't change it back down sharply to a lower number at those strategic times like you see in the DOS solutions, that are done specifically to avoid bad timings observed for specific lemmings.

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 14.1.2020.
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2020, 06:51:20 am »
Thanks new infromations ccexplore. I start some more serious attempts taxing 4 and look your LemmixSNEStest lrb replay frame by frame and looking can this match on real SNES system.

Im not are make working it yet. Not sure what i do wrong or is there more version differences or did i have change some more setups. At least i pick up one little difference, im not sure will this change anything about timing at end when i attempt sliding.

But i tested digger-basher difference. On SNES system you have to take this basher one pixel later than Lemmix. Otherwise this picture setup will hit with metal pillar of the middle level on SNES version. Its might change some pixel timings at end and buildings. I really test many things when i attempts sliding, but not are find correct way yet. This picture is correct spot on Lemmix, but you have to make it one pixel/step later on SNES version avoiding hittin metal.

Oteheswise this starting setup look very similar pixels. Im not still are correctly make sliding. I´ll might back and look around this better, because there is some minor chances im overlooked some little bit.

EDIT:
More testing, but seems some steps come wrong. I just make all focus lemmings number 30 and his steps behind basher. Its look steps happen little bit different on lemmix replay than SNES. Im not sure is this basher reason. I have to take it one pixel later because SNES version required it to bash under metal pillar. But it seems i have to change some setups and spots little bit. Probably even releaserating. I´ll keep trying if i could make somethings better.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 08:29:51 am by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2020, 09:11:00 am »
Its time to analyze some more version difference between lemmix and SNES and its might explain why i cannot make slide glitch with lemmix setup.

9 Gap building and turning over first trap. (its very different pixel and its might change things before sliding)

EDIT:
Attempt to slide 8 gap trap setup. Im also try 9 gap trap setup, but then lemmings steps seems going wrong. Probably have look more better reason with this.

But no luck. But 30 lemmings step look correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW3KxSxpwdI
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 09:59:07 am by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5133
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 14.1.2020.
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2020, 10:14:55 am »
But i tested digger-basher difference. On SNES system you have to take this basher one pixel later than Lemmix. Otherwise this picture setup will hit with metal pillar of the middle level on SNES version.

If you are talking about the metal in the middle separating the left and right sides, I just tested on SNES emulator and bashing underneath that is working fine, basher does not get stopped by any metal.  Just like in Lemmix replay, you need to dig down 9 times (ie. the dig pit will be 9 pixels in height) before bashing.  But, as I also emphasized multiple times, on SNES you must start digging one pixel more to the left of where you see in Lemmix replay, which would mean the digger on SNES would actually take out a tiny bit of the metal left of him when he started digging.  If you don't start digging in the right place, the basher will not be creating the "dent" for sliding at the right place later.  The dent must line up exactly with the leftmost vertical column of pixels of metal (of the metal block to the right of the hangman trap).

I really don't see how your basher is getting stopped by the metal separating left and right sides, nor how that would even be affected merely by shifting the digging/bashing left or right.  Or maybe I just don't know what you are trying to tell me.  If you are still having the problem, please show me a video of the problem happening.

The basher's stroke takes out pixels of land over several frames.  The first frame that does that will create a 1-pixel dent, but that actually won't work for sliding here (the step leading up to the dent is too short in height).  The next frame of the basher will create a 2-pixel dent (they will appear gray in color, coming from the non-land pixels of the hangman trap) that does work for sliding here.  So make sure you assign builder to the basher at the correct time.

The 30th lemming out that will start building near where the basher is, don't line him up based on where basher is (since on SNES the basher will be 1 pixel more to the left compared to Lemmix), line him up using the pattern of pixels in the ground, and match the position exactly as in Lemmix for that builder assigned to 30th lemming.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5133
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2020, 10:29:40 am »
Its time to analyze some more version difference between lemmix and SNES and its might explain why i cannot make slide glitch with lemmix setup.

I cannot figure out what you are trying to tell me with those pictures. ??? Maybe a video would explain things better?

The build bridge over the hangman trap (built by 2nd lemming out) is solely to keep any lemmings from getting killed by that trap, and serves no other purpose.  The exact position of that bridge doesn't need to be pixel-perfect to where you see in Lemmix, but the bridge should start more to the left (ie. don't start it too close to the trap), to avoid the 30th lemming out bumping his head on that bridge while he is trying to build his own bridge (the one that would eventually trigger sliding).

The build bridge by 30th lemming that eventually triggers sliding, is started at the bottom of the basher tunnel, so I'm not sure what you are doing with those pictures, I don't see the basher tunnel in them. ???

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2020, 10:44:34 am »
Im not even know where i have trouble. But my main trouble is lemming doensn´t go to slide and exactly not know reason and can,t solved it. I just try explain it myself first. Those pictures just explain some things which goes different lemmix than Snes emulator. Not even know is there any matter about it. But its might changes some things and steps. Can´t know.

Another short video clip trying  sliding. Its still going wrong. And yeah lemmings 30 is always used when attempt to slide. Also releaserates is changed correctly, but its not still matter. I think i did some wrong in level. Thats why i pictured things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoT1XX_L0gs
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 10:49:44 am by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5133
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2020, 11:14:09 am »
It looks to me like you started your basher much too far to the right in that video.  The dent he creates goes way past the leftmost vertical column of metal block.  The dent cannot be that far right, otherwise when builder tries to build to seal up the dent (which is 2 pixels in height, and thus needs 2 build bricks to seal up), builder will stop building after laying down brick that fills just 1 of the 2 pixels, due to the check for ceiling.  If you see the Lemmix replay, the dent created is barely visible, lines up perfectly with leftmost column of metal block,  and is gray in color (the latter due to some non-land pixels from the graphics of the hangman trap).

If possible, please make the video start all the way from the beginning when the level just fades in.  Like in this video, I think your basher started wrong, but I can't confirm because assigning the basher is not included in the video.

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2020, 11:41:18 am »
Quote
If possible, please make the video start all the way from the beginning when the level just fades in.  Like in this video, I think your basher started wrong, but I can't confirm because assigning the basher is not included in the video.

I just did slide glitch correctly using lemmix. I have to check out match my solution just my SNES. I´ll make SNES video for you if this not match. Then there is probably some version differences between lemmix and Snes emulator.

But its possible i am overlooked somethings already. Be right back.
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2020, 12:17:32 pm »
Quote
If possible, please make the video start all the way from the beginning when the level just fades in.  Like in this video, I think your basher started wrong, but I can't confirm because assigning the basher is not included in the video.

Okay here is basher video
And thats really look i did it exactly same spot as lemmix, but something happen while bashing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Ha5Cyuc0c

Its really look version difference between SNES and Lemmix emulator. Thats why i got some pictures already. Steps going bit different and i alrdeady did it succesfully done on lemmix.

Here is part two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mNjs7Hg4T0
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 12:27:26 pm by MASTER-88 »
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5133
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2020, 07:00:08 pm »
The video confirms that you started bashing too far to the right.  I kind of hate that you are making me do all this, but attached here is picture of where you should start digging on SNES.  It is one pixel more to the left compared to the Lemmix replay, to compensate for basher difference.  I also attached a picture of what the dent made by basher (that the 30th lemming's building eventually seals up to trigger sliding) should look like on SNES, the dent circled in light blue.  Those two things are different in your video.

Where you start bashing matters because while it doesn't require pixel-perfect timing, the solution is still relying on the basher being very close to the 30th lemming when 30th lemming starts to build.  So there is a timing relation between the basher and the 30th lemming, and changing where you started bashing will affect that.

Offline MASTER-88

  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 16.1.2020.
« Reply #119 on: January 16, 2020, 10:14:50 pm »
Okay this digger picture actually show you dig 2 pixel behind than lemmix. Then its look basher bash correct spot at end, but thats 30 lemmings build still wrong. Its build 7 gap and its required 8 gap make slide.

But however make digger one or two pixel more left than lemmix its still doesn´t make me sliding. Attempts both setups and pixels several times. My best attempt was just stuck one lemming into metal. I don´t know reason and can´t make even emulator videos anymore.

Some unknow reason my emulator AVI recorder started crash my emulator over and over so i can´t make emulator videos before i fixed this trouble. No recorded problems before. I guess this computer make some fucking updates and thats make it crash.

Seriously this level started make me more angry than any other slide glitch levels already.:devil: And its not even that hard trick to make with lemmix setups.

Be right back when emulator recording working and its easier look what fuck i still do wrong or did this trick even possible on SNES.
Video games player.
See my youtube: Several games videos includes lemmix custom levels
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhum