Comparing these results with our own results from the DOS version: (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1068.0)
Fun 9: You used 2 skills, but this doesn't work on DOS.
Fun 11: You used 5 skills, our record is 3. This presumably relies on steel glitches. It's worth checking whether this works on SNES, because while glitches don't necessarily carry over, steel is pretty flimsy on most versions of the original game :P
Fun 13: I believe that on some versions, e.g. Genesis, this can be done with only 2 diggers. Not possible on SNES?
Fun 15: Sorry, you overlooked a better solution here. 9 skills is glitch-free and should definitely work on SNES.
The worker should be the last lemming.
Fun 23: Our record is 5 skills. From ccexplore's post, it sounds like this is bunching up the crowd so a single lemming can build over the gap, avoiding the need for the blocker.
Fun 27: Our record is 5 skills. I don't know the details of this solution, but I'll see if I can find it and get back to you 8-)
Fun 28: Our record is 10 skills. This is glitch-free and should definitely work on SNES.
The first lemming should be an athlete; then you can dig the crowd out at the end with just one skill.
Could someone move this to Challenges?
Okay, here's a full description of the Fun 28 10-skill solution:
Make the first lemming climb and float out of the holding area.
Build from under the lowest point of the overhanging terrain in the middle. It will take five builders to reach the platform below the exit.
Build to the exit. The lemming will turn round.
Have the worker lemming mine towards the steel in the bottom-right.
Release the crowd by digging all the way down one of the poles of their enclosure.
Several years has passed. I guess some results have improved, but it looks like you haven't really cross-check with the DOS Lemmings results yet, and at the same time you seem to think you're close to maxing all levels. I think it's time you really compare with the DOS Lemmings results. There are definitely some differences that would make some particular results in DOS Lemmings not achievable and vice versa, but there's bound to be at least a few levels where a better result that was reported on DOS Lemmings would carry over to SNES. Even some of the glitches have been confirmed to work on SNES.
Regarding what Proxima mentioned about Fun, I had a chance to test some stuff out earlier today, but didn't have time to write this until now:
Fun 9: You used 2 skills, but this doesn't work on DOS.
This is expected. Amiga/SNES Lemmings' basher extends one pixel further forward, which is just enough to allow you to get through the column with 2 bashers.
Fun 11: You used 5 skills, our record is 3. This presumably relies on steel glitches. It's worth checking whether this works on SNES, because while glitches don't necessarily carry over, steel is pretty flimsy on most versions of the original game :P
While the steel glitch itself actually works on SNES, the problem is that the DOS solution also relies on that version's bugged placement of one-way-wall trigger areas, which in DOS leads to a gap of no one-way-wall just above the steel floor (even though visually you see no gap), which is what lets you bash through the wrong way after digging 4 pixels down into the steel. This doesn't work in SNES.
There is also a 4 skill solution that is glitch-free, but surprisingly that also doesn't work in SNES, due to miner wackiness in SNES. (If you play the game it'd be very obvious, the floor of the mining tunnel doesn't look quite like the normal "2 pixels forward, 1 pixel down" steps you get in other ports.) Apparently it's not easy to mine down a build bridge with SNES's miner.
So unfortunately you might really need 5 skills for this on SNES.
Fun 13: I believe that on some versions, e.g. Genesis, this can be done with only 2 diggers. Not possible on SNES?
I tested this back when we talked about the use of "digger free digger" for this level on various ports. I'll link back to the post when I find it, but basically the problem is that it appears SNES doesn't let you increase the release rate fast enough to get the first 2 lemmings close enough together to do the trick. So you have to start the trick with the 2nd and 3rd lemmings instead, and hence need an extra digger to deal with the 1st lemming. On the Genesis it barely works and requires you to start increasing the release rate as soon as the game lets you (which is like during start of the fade-in before the level is even fully visible).
Fun 17: Our record is 4 skills (steel glitches again, although you also used steel glitches in your solution).
I distinctly remember having tested this on SNES and it should work. When I have time I'll record it in Bizhawk (http://tasvideos.org/BizHawk.html) emulator as confirmation.
Fun 23: Our record is 5 skills. From ccexplore's post, it sounds like this is bunching up the crowd so a single lemming can build over the gap, avoiding the need for the blocker.
Yes. Whether this solution works or not might hinge on whether certain changes in release rate is achievable on SNES, because the solution does rely on manipulating the release rate a little to bunch up the crowd almost perfectly into near-single position. That said, it could still work though even if a few lemmings are slightly off-position from the perfectly-compressed crowd, since the time window of danger (during the building over the gap) is relatively short compared to all that walking along the basher tunnel. You'll just have to test and see. I've included some key details in spoiler below. When I have time I'll try to confirm this solution on Bizhawk emulator.
Raise the release rate from 50 to 68 immediately after (not before!) 1st lemming comes out. 1st lemming digs at the bottom of the first tiny depression on the ground that it walks into. After 12th lemming comes out, lower release rate to 67. The digger keeps digging until only 2 pixels left before breaking through to bottom of level, as soon as 2 pixels left, start building to stop the digging. Now wait for rest of lemming to come out and fall into the digging pit. You end up with one single fairly tight bunch of lemmings. In my solution I started bashing left with a lemming that's almost at the right edge of the pit. I don't know if that matters but definitely be prepared to tweak the position you start bashing from, if the timing doesn't work out for you.
Fun 27: Our record is 5 skills. I don't know the details of this solution, but I'll see if I can find it and get back to you 8-)
It was my solution (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1068.msg28829#msg28829) and I had the replay. Will make sure to restore it on the original challenge thread if it's missing there. [edit: done] It's not a conventional solution and uses steel glitches. The steel glitch might still work but the killer is difference in digging mechanics. Like in Fun 28, SNES doesn't let you continue dig down with so few pixels. From limited testing, I think you will need to shift the entire solution at least 2 pixels further left for the digger to be able to dig all the way down the right side of the steel block, but unfortunately this cause the build bridge to just miss the left edge of the exit platform.
Barring a completely different 5-skill solution to be discovered, 6 might indeed be the best you can do on SNES.
Fun 28: Our record is 10 skills. This is glitch-free and should definitely work on SNES.
Like MASTER-88 pointed out, SNES doesn't let you dig down the pole without being a bit closer to it, which ruins that solution. However, from limited testing I think there is a totally different way to handle the start that might enable a 10-skill solution. Will have to test more later tonight. Details below:
Dig down, then find a very precise spot to start mining left on. The goal is that you get a mining stroke that almost but does not break through the pole on the left, then on the next and final mining stroke, it also breaks through the floor so the miner and everyone else falls down to next holding area below. But if there was a lemming that already walked past the miner and was standing at where the pole was at during that final mining stroke, he should end up fall down past the pole and be able to end up safely outside, where he can do all the required building. You almost certainly have to manipulate the release rate to get the timing of the "lucky lemming" to work out, but it shouldn't require very precise changes to the release rate either (it might well be sufficient to just bump it up to 99 at some point).
Fun 29: Our record is 12 skills. I don't know the details of this solution.
This is also mine (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1068.msg36624#msg36624) and I'll fix the post to re-attach any missing replays [edit: nothing to fix]. It is a glitch-free solution but because it uses miners, I can't rule out being surprised unpleasantly by SNES, though in this case it seems very unlikely that the miner differences in SNES would actually affect the solution. So while it needs to be tested, I think it will work out. In the spoilers below I've listed out all the skills and roughly where they are used.
[edit: finally tested on SNES. So of course the SNES miner ruins things again. >:( Also, the part that uses the basher staircase trick apparently also fails due to the SNES basher taking out more pixels than DOS. :(]
Block, then mine right to free blocker, then mine left with another lemming to stop the first miner and to reach the area left of the entrance area. Bash through next two obstacles. In the next area where there is a gap in the staircase, let the lemmings fall into the area below, then build left starting from the very right side to get out of it. Then use the basher staircase trick (bash, then build to stop the bashing mid-stroke) to get up to the piece of wood leading to the pyramid. At this point you can proceed same as your current solution (bash through pyramid, then 3 builders to reach exit).
Pause immediately when level starts, raise release rate to 90 or 91 before first lemming appears, pause immediately when release rate reached. Assign the digger and miner as shown in previous screenshots (the miner in particular should be assigned at the exact location). Pause shortly after assigning miner to bring release rate back down to 80. (Optional, but keeps the lemmings more bunched up so it's easier to free them later with the basher.) At the 90 or 91 release rate, the timing will work out to allow one single lemming to escape just when the miner breaks through.
First lemming digs (1) on the 4th pixel from the edge. When there's only 1px of ground left below him, make him a blocker (2). Release rate 99. The last lemming digs (3) further back, becomes a floater (4), builds (5) a safe landing. Then, use a right-facing miner (6) to free the crowd.
Taxing 14: 10 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES). [Analysis pending...]
I see typo. This level is Hunt the nessy 14: 22 (DOS) vs 21 (SNES) is correct.
I personally think DOS level could be easily 21 skills. This level is linear.
So I finally took a look and it turns out the level is actually slightly different on DOS! DOS actually has two more islands resulting in more gaps to build over. On the other hand, because DOS doesn't have any water at the bottom, some gaps can be built over with only 1 builder instead of 2.
But it turns out you didn't handle the Nessy optimally either on SNES. I believe you should be able to use only 20 skills on SNES.
5 builders, then bash across at a height just below the eye of Nessy (about bottom 3rd of eye will be bashed out). You will come out slightly below tip of the nose, and the fall is survivable.
Taxing 27
27: 12 [77/80] (DOS) vs 14 [97/100] (SNES). [Analysis pending...]
13 skills is confirmed on SNES. But 12 not. But i can surely say casual 97% method building doensn´t work. Its let one gap remain even pixel prfected. No way make it any less
Mayhem 6
6: 9 (DOS) vs 10 (SNES). [Analysis pending...]
I have some clue how DOS version solution could work and i got make its pretty close work on SNES version, but just seems biggest trouble is strong metal.
For Taxing 27, you can view the DOS solution using Lemmix Player as described step-by-step on this sticky topic (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4570.0). The replay file to view can be downloaded from this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1414.msg36454#msg36454) (look for the one with "7builders" in the filename).
You need 8 skills to make the path to exit (1 bomber, then 5 builders, a blocker, and one final builder). So it's all about how you hold and release the crowd:
Near the entrance, you have that triangular wooden staircase leading to top of the yellow block. Put one blocker on the third step of staircase from bottom. Put 2nd blocker on top of yellow block as close as possible to the 1st blocker, but also have him build one build brick first before blocking (but, assign blocker after build brick is fully laid down, but before lemming moves up onto it). The rest of lemmings will pass through the 1st blocker as they walk up the staircase, but will get trapped between the two blockers. Then once everyone is out, explode someone trapped between the blockers, if timed correctly the explosion will free both blockers, and together with the build brick you added on top of yellow block, the explosion crater will also block lemmings from going further right as well.
One obvious question is, can't you put the blockers lower so you wouldn't need to use the builder? I did some testing but it doesn't seem to work so far. If you for example put the 2nd blocker on one of the steps of the staircase, typically the lemmings would walk through that blocker just like they could walk through the 1st blocker from its left.
While the DOS solution captured in the replay file did have a big jump in release rate, I don't think it is strictly required for the solution. So as long as the blockers behave like they do on DOS, the 12-skill solution from DOS should work on SNES.
------------
For Mayhem 6, you can download the DOS replay file attached to this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1068.msg28845#msg28845), to view in Lemmix Player. The solution technically can't be done as-is on SNES because it has several sharp changes to the release rates (there are parts where the release rate jumps from 99 to 50 and then back to 99). I don't know yet how essential those sharp release rate changes are or whether it's possible to find a different sequence of release rate manipulations that provide the same benefits but is executable on SNES, where release rate can't be changed while paused unlike on DOS. So it's possible there may be no way to make the DOS solution work on SNES, even though everything else in it besides the release rate changes should be doable on SNES.
I believe the release rate manipulation is specifically to help ensure that when the digger starts digging at the spot far enough to the right to eventually be stopped by the metal block, no lemming in the crowd will catch up to the digger before he has dug down far enough, for the right wall to become deep enough to turn lemmings around. I don't otherwise see a need for the release rate changes.
Not sure what you mean when you talk about "strong metal", so I'm curious what other solution ideas you have in mind that is affected that way? ??? I don't think "strong metal" has any relevance to the DOS solution I know about.
Which DOS Lemmix replay did you based your video on (can you post the URL, or the topic title and reply #, if you got it from this forum)? It doesn't quite match any of the 100% solutions replay I have on my computer and I have 3. It looks closest to the one whose filename has "15builders", but your two build bridges in the video look too far apart compared to the replay. The other two replays on my computer have the bridges starting a little bit further out to the left than your video.
The solution that produces the DOS record for total skills count at 100% save, is a variation of this one (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1414.msg36546#msg36546) which originally uses only builders, but can be trivially modified to use 17 builders and 1 climber. It only uses very small release rate changes that are definitely doable on SNES, but as a result it takes longer for level solution to complete (nearly all lemmings are coming out at release rate 30).
The replay for the 15-builder solution is this one (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1414.msg36606#msg36606), but it uses more of other skills, and so the total skill count actually comes out to 20 and not better than the DOS record for total skill count. It looks like your interest in this replay was primarily for the slightly more efficient way to hold (ie. "lock") the lemmings.
Now to address your comments:
1: If you can make this lock system working you can make 99% using 15 skills without glitches. And yeah this lock system work like DOS but releaserate is big trouble. I have to slowdown 3rd lemmings, because 2nd lemmings no have time build up and lock 3rd lemmings. Im not give up yet, but its strongly looks its requires extra builder slowdown. This look DOS version you can change releaserate when you are paused and its doesn´t work on SNES.
If you are referring to the "15-builder" DOS solution, that is not the one that produces the DOS record anyway. For the "lock system", note that you need to set the release rate to 40 before the first lemming comes out. I think you might have missed that when watching the replay, which may be why you ended up building the rightmost bridge not as close to the other bridge as you see in the replay, causing things to not work out. Release rate can be 40 at any time as long as it is before you can see the first lemming coming out. Once after the first lemming comes out, drop the release rate back to 30 before second lemming comes out. These release rate changes are definitely doable on SNES.
The 15-builder DOS solution then requires a release rate change from 30 to 67 after second lemming comes out. This can actually be made 31 to 66 for same effect. It is quite a high release rate change, but based on my calculations it might still barely be doable on SNES. Even if it isn't, it just means you have to spend an extra climber for the extra lemming that isn't part of the compressed crowd that gets slide up by the glitch. In any case, this isn't really worth discussing further because the 15-builder DOS solution is not even the DOS record when it comes to total skills.
When watching Lemmix replays, note that release rate changes have same effect regardless of exact timing, as long as it is done at some point right after Nth lemming out and right before the N+1-th lemming out--the change would then affect not lemming N+1, but the next-next one (N+2). It is not literally necessary for the release rate to make an instant jump from one value to a much larger value, though it is certainly possible with pausing on DOS Lemmings, and Lemmix replays depict all release rate changes as instant given it is always possible with pausing.
2: I finally see how this sliding glitch is maded here, but i personally not know how its exactly working. I am see it used some TAS runs and etc... But i guess its just perfect timing.
There is a brief overview here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1382.0) (under section "Builders"), and I've included some additional details in below spoiler section. It does unfortunately require perfect or near-perfect timing to trigger, which means that in practice, even something as trivial as how long to let a lemming shrug before assigning him next builder, can affect the timing needed. So even when you know the exact timing details, in practice you can almost never work it out in advance, instead you need to use tools like emulators to see how much you've deviated in your current attempt from the perfect timing needed, and then make small tweaks to previous moves before the glitch to try to get the timing to line up. So I'm not 100% sure how helpful those details will be, but I guess better than nothing.
For a step height of 3 pixels (minimum), the builder needs to start laying the brick, when the lemming to be slid up is 8 pixels away from the step. The way we count the 8 pixels is: starting at the vertical column of pixels making up the step, move 8 pixel-steps horizontally away from it towards the lemming that is walking towards the step. Then line up the lemming graphics with the pixel you are at, as follows:
- If lemming is facing right, look at his face (white part) which looks like an inverted T. The left pixel of the inverted T should line up with above pixel.
- If lemming is facing left, use the center pixel of the inverted T instead.
This assumes there are no other large steps in between lemming's current location and the step, so that the lemming moves exactly one pixel forward horizontally each time game advances forward, not having to spend any extra time falling down a large step or jumping up a large step.
It actually also matters whether the builder is a lemming that comes out of entrance before or after the lemming you want to slide. The above assumes "before" (the typical case). If it is "after", you need the lemming you want to slide to be 9 rather than 8 pixels from the step.
If the step height is 4 or 5 pixels instead of 3, in additional to the timings noted above, the walking lemming can also be 1 pixel closer to step: so 7 or 8 for the "before" case, 8 or 9 for the "after" case. For step height 6 (maximum), the walking lemming can be 2 pixels closer to step, so 6-8 "before" and 7-9 "after".
Probably the most useful information is just to know what happens when you missed the perfect timing: if the builder builds too early, the step turns into a wall too early so the lemming just turns around instead of getting slid up. If the builder builds too late, then the lemmings already finishes moving up the step before the build brick is fully laid down, and often those lemmings will then get trapped in what has now become a wall instead of a step. With this information, you can tell when tweaking a solution attempt, whether you need to make the builder build slightly earlier or later, or make the lemming reaches the step earlier or later.
3: 3rd trouble is releaserate like 67 used on DOS version its not enought fast let pass 100 lemmings out fast enoought. There is 80 lemmings on DOS and 100 lemming on SNES. If you need compress you have to make it using faster releaserate or just waste more time in level.
I think you are overestimating the amount of time needed for these solutions. Testing shows that SNES advances game 15 times (steps) for the game's timer to go down one second, versus DOS's 17 times. Now let's look at the 17-builder 1-climber DOS solution, which actually takes even longer as it leaves the release rate mostly at 30:
- The level gives you 6 minutes.
- The 80th lemming comes out when timer reads 3:01.
- The last lemming to exit finishes exiting when time reads 2:18.
So the DOS solution takes no more than 3 minutes for 80th lemming to come out, which in DOS is 17 * 180 = 3060 steps. From the point of 80th lemming out to the level being done, it's about 43 seconds, let's round that up generously to another minute = 17 * 60 = 1020 steps.
At release rate of 30, there is floor((99-30)/2) + 4 = 38 steps between one lemming coming out of entrance and the next one coming out. So having 20 more lemmings on SNES would add 38 * 20 = 760 steps, waiting for them to come out at release rate 30.
Altogether we end up with 4840 steps total, which with SNES's faster game timer taking only 15 steps for each second, we end up with 4840/15 = 322.7 seconds = about 5 min 23 seconds. So yes, you are cutting it a little close, but still under the 6 minute mark.
If you're still not convinced, try this: according to the above calculations, on SNES with release rate left at 30, the 100th lemming to come out should do so around when the timer reads 1:45. Play the level doing (almost) nothing but wait for the lemmings to come out, and see how close the prediction is to reality.
There is however one trouble I've excluded: as you can see when watching the Lemmix replay, the DOS solution actually takes some time waiting after 80th lemming is out before assigning the builder that releases (ie. "unlock") the crowd. This wait is specifically to get the timing to work out later for applying the glitch. With 100 lemmings instead of 80, the required timing obviously changes, and may end up requiring more waiting (beyond just waiting for the 100th lemming to come out) compared to DOS solution. So it is possible you might run out of time as a result, only testing can tell.
As for the 15-builder solution, since it uses a comparatively higher release rate, you are in even less danger of running out of time.
There is an alternative solution/method to save 100% on sunsoft 2 that I think is easier than Richard Diaz's solution , and also it can help you to save more skills. I had proposed that solution for a talisman for the Lemmings Redux version of the level . I will copy-paste my description of that method from that thread ( but I will use again spoiler tags for anyone that doesn't want to have the talisman solution spoiled ):
You use the method used by snc76976 in his TAS video, but in a way that it will help you save 100% instead of 80% that snc saves in his video.
link for the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsQiAl8hWWk
You need to create the staircase snc creates but in a way that extends lower ( closer to the steel floor ). As I said , reproducing this staircase is easy with the Neolemmix mechanisms , but the solution will become tricky at the end, when the lemmings from the left hatch will reach the staircase and they will start going to the exit. In that case , to make your life easier do the following trick:
Use the three last lemmings to dig a wide pit that will have the steel floor as its lowest point, and the staircase as its highest point. Make it as wide as possible. When its finished assign one of these lemmings as a builder to build from the steel floor to the beginning of the staircase. In that case, the last lemmings will go to the exit too, and you will save 100% of the lemmings
Also some additional hints:
Your solution is not a speedrun solution , so you have the luxury to make the spaces between the diggers wider , especially at the beginning ( and also maybe to have a little lower release rate? ). You can even have 3 diggers digging at the begining instead of 2 , so you will have wider spaces. Also you need to save the builder for the final part of the solution , so instead of using it early like snc did , you can use Richard Diaz's method to make the lemmings of the right hatch land safely to the bottom part of level. Generally you have to experiment , to find the best combination of the release rate and the spaces between the diggers.
Basically if I remember correctly, I think if you get a builder stuck inside a wall, then have him build whenever he faces right but before he starts climbing while facing right, I think you can gradually get him further inside the wall, eventually far enough to blow away the first obstacle with just one bomber. This relies on the known behavior that when a climber hits a ceiling, turns around and falls, at the point he turns around the game actually moves him 2 pixels away from the wall rather than just 1, which I think can be exploited to get the lemming gradually further into the wall.
If my idea works out it should work on SNES and DOS as well, but again need to do some testing first, maybe later tonight. Maybe you can beat me to it too.
Finally got find some really new which nobody figured out before. I am quite sure its will working DOS version too
Mayhem 20 No added colours or Lemmings 10001 points (6 skills solution)
This strategy let one climber remain, its use same glitch what i did use Mayhem 3 5 skill solution
Here is video
No added colours or Lemmings 10001 points
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reOfnw-ZED4
EDIT:
Tested out DOS and Genesis version and this strategy doens´t work those versions, because miner mechanism is different.