Lemmings SNES all levels max pointed (videos up) Update 23.4.2024.

[MASTER-88]

If you prefer, you could instead provide us your list of results in the format of a flat list of skill counts used for each level, similar to this table at the top of our DOS topic:

Thats might good idea. Im not going make similar (i really hate exel), but i´ll make another one which show used skills better. I might have time make it later today.

The current best solution on DOS for Tricky 5 doesn't use any skills to hold back the crowd.  It takes advantage of there being a lot of space in the level area to fit the entire stream of walking lemmings without them looping back onto itself, assuming you bump the release rate to 99 as quickly as you can as soon as the level starts.  You then perform most of the skills using lemmings near the back of the stream

Its actually working on SNES. Used that releaserate method taxing level 8. (10 skill solution) On tricky version there is just easier lock lemmings using one digger. However you will need break this rope and its easier use just simply digger. Taxing level 8 you not have diggers, so this strategy goes very different.
Tricky 5 (10 skills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8wyL9vgp70&list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj1mqlmDSnHjmjdQAdh3ed-i&index=5
Taxing 8 (10 skills( using 99 releaserate method)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKKXJZN_Qvs&list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj136snR0XiQSGv4jxL4135B&index=8

The current best solution on DOS for Tricky 12 is very much like Fun 23 conceptually.  You bunch up the crowd near perfectly via adjusting release rate to a particular number (don't remember which) that works with the width of the starting area, then do the rest of the level without attempting to hold back the crowd with any additional skills.  You do need 2 builders on DOS to make a safe landing starting on the floor of the pit.  The DOS solution uses just 3 floaters.

This sounds interesting and im definitely not are test out this before. I am personally really worse planning releaserate manipulation. However im not sure can this work, its definitely worth trying it here.

[MASTER-88]

If you prefer, you could instead provide us your list of results in the format of a flat list of skill counts used for each level, similar to this table at the top of our DOS topic:

Watch my first post. I Using wordpad, but this is a lot easier to check out now.

I´ll update this list when i go improve my records.

[MASTER-88]

Tricky 5. This last ball could be bashed only one basher. You need bash third ball right pixel and then fourth ball could be done with one only.

About Tricky 12 methods. I cannot find correct releaserate. Just releaserate 5 seems best, but its not even close enought.

But tricky 5 will be possible improve. Taxing 8 is really different task, because this level is really precise. So i not sure could this method bash last ball one are fast enought. But its for sure will take more planning than tricky 5.

EDIT:
Tricky 5 10151 (9 skills)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0ZCxYhBMp4

Next i might back work on taxing version with this level.

EDIT 2:
Taxing 8 10041 (9 skills) This is much more harder than tricky 5 because you can,t lock your lemmings. This also includes double basher trick which requires two pixel perfect bashers like tricky 5. I really hate this level, but finally done it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9SFPDzN7rY

[ccexplore]

Tricky 5. This last ball could be bashed only one basher. You need bash third ball right pixel and then fourth ball could be done with one only.

Good find! This also works on DOS, so the record there is now improved to 7 skills using your discovery.

Will have to test and see whether the timing works out for SNES to do 8 skills (ie. no extra skills used for crowd control).  Sadly this new way of getting through the final ball does shorten the amount of walking for the crowd, so it is much more likely for the crowd to overtake the builder (and fail the solution) if we attempt to do no crowd control, only testing can show if it ends up success or failure for SNES.

About Tricky 12 methods. I cannot find correct releaserate. Just releaserate 5 seems best, but its not even close enought.

I should've mentioned this before, there is actually a formula that translates a release rate number into the corresponding spacing between consecutive lemmings:

spacing in pixels/steps = floor((99 - release rate) / 2) + 4

floor(x) means always round down to nearest integer.  So for example floor(1 / 2) = floor(0.5) = 0, floor (2 / 2) = floor(1) = 1, floor (3 / 3) = floor(1.5) = 1, etc.

So at release rate of 99 and 98, the next lemming out is 4 steps behind the current lemming.  A release rate of 1 for example comes out to 53 steps.  The same formula works on both DOS and SNES Lemmings (as well as Amiga, Genesis, etc., basically many versions that are closely based on DOS/Amiga physics).

The width of the pit in Tricky 12 is 16 pixels.  But the lemming actually moves into the wall itself at the moment it turns around, so one single iteration of back and forth in the pit takes 17 * 2 = 34 steps.  Solving for the formula above, to get 34, the corresponding release rate needs to be 39 or 38.  5 is way too low by comparison.

In order to minimize the amount of floaters used, you actually need to keep the release rate at 1 until the landing is safe, then raise it.  I don't know if SNES lets you raise release rate all the way from 1 to 38 without having the next lemming comes out before that finishes.  On the other hand, even a few lemmings out of the perfect position might still be okay, only testing will tell if builder can finish before some lemming overtakes.

[MASTER-88]

Tricky 12 9 skills working on SNES, i just confirmed it. You have to use 38 releaserate and IIRC you have to take this before 3rd lemming will come out (only two single lemmings is allowed run down, i have to check out it better. This is also pixel perfect one. But i take some pictures and this really will be done on SNES version too. 

This is some fun time spend trying that my console. I have to thanks you with this. I personally really suck releaserate manipulations.

I can,t make it again. But yeah its working once using heavy amount savestate

Good find! This also works on DOS, so the record there is now improved to 7 skills using your discovery.

Thanks. This game will always surprise. Nice to see its working DOS version too.

[ccexplore]

So here are the levels that have different results currently between DOS vs SNES:

Tricky

• 2: 5 (DOS) vs 3 (SNES).  Expected, difference in physics of digger makes 3-skill solution not work on DOS.  Same deal across all four "We All Fall Down".
• 5: 7 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES).  Test pending for 8 (SNES).  SNES needs 3 builders (instead of DOS's 2) to reach the island before exit, since it has water at the bottom, which are removed on DOS.
• 12: 9 (DOS) vs 10 (SNES) [MASTER-88 confirmed 9 for SNES as well]
• 21: 9 (DOS) vs 14 (SNES).  Completely different level.  DOS has "666" and SNES has Japanese "Ohayo".
• 23: 24 [saves 79/80] (DOS) vs 21 [saves 97/100] (SNES).  [MASTER-88 confirmed DOS lose-1 solution on SNES as well]
• 26: 3 (DOS) vs 2 (SNES).  Expected, SNES basher can take out one pixel further ahead compared to DOS, just enough to get through pillar with only 2 bashers.
• 28: 4 (DOS) vs 5 (SNES).  [MASTER-88 confirmed 4 for SNES as well]

Taxing

• 1: 9 (DOS) vs 10 (SNES).  DOS solution will run out of time on SNES with its faster timer.
• 2: 8 (DOS) vs 7 (SNES).  [Analysis pending...]
• 4: 14 (DOS) vs 16 (SNES).  [Analysis pending...]
• 7: 8 [79/80] (DOS) vs 10 [99/100] (SNES).  DOS solution relies on being able to bash through the one-way-wall left-to-right from 6-7 pixels below ground level, which probably won't work on SNES (same reason DOS Fun 11 solution won't work on SNES).
• 8: 8 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES).  Expected, like the earlier Tricky 5, SNES needs 3 builders (instead of DOS's 2) to reach the island before exit, since it has water at the bottom, which are removed on DOS.
• 13: 10 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES).  Expected:  due to a bug in DOS, you cannot mine left-to-right the one-way wall just before the exit (miner will stop even though it's in same direction as the arrows), instead you have to mine down starting further left to get below it, then bash.  Hence the extra skill usage.
• 14: 22 (DOS) vs 21 (SNES).  DOS level has 2 more islands than SNES, so there are more gaps to build over.  On the other hand, because DOS lacks water, some gaps can be built over with just 1 builder instead of 2 like SNES.  But actually you didn't handle the Nessy optimally on SNES either, I think you should be able to get 20 on SNES.
  
  Spoiler (click to show/hide)

  5 builders, then bash across at a height just below the eye of Nessy.  You will come out slightly below tip of the nose, and the fall is survivable.
• 15: 11 (DOS) vs 12 (SNES).  DOS solution should also work on SNES.
• 17: 9 (DOS) vs 7 (SNES).  [Analysis pending...]
• 17: 6 (DOS) vs 7 (SNES).  (There's a typo in MASTER-88's list, it's 8 not 7.) [edit: my mistake, wrong video]  The DOS solution doesn't use crowd control, vaguely similar to Fun 23 (but of course here you can't compress the entire crowd into one single bunch; it'd be more like 12 bunches).  There's no strong reason to suspect there isn't some similar way for it to work out on SNES, but all the technical details, including the release rate(s) to use, will change, due to differences between SNES and DOS miner.  So test pending on SNES, but I'll likely put this off for a while.
• 18: 12 (DOS) vs 13 (SNES).  [MASTER-88 confirmed 12 for SNES as well]
• 20: 9 (DOS) vs 8 (SNES).  improved to 7 skills, same solution on both versions
• 22: 5 (DOS) vs 6 (SNES).  Same as Fun 27, the DOS solution relies on difference in digger behavior that won't work on SNES.
• 25: 7 (DOS) vs 8 (SNES).  DOS solution looks like won't work on SNES due to SNES having 100 lemmings rather than DOS's 80, plus with SNES's faster timer, the DOS solution ending at around 0:22 will probably run out of time on SNES.
• 26: 12 (DOS) vs 13 (SNES).  [MASTER-88 confirmed 12 for SNES as well]
• 27: 12 [77/80] (DOS) vs 14 [97/100] (SNES).  [Analysis pending...]
• 30: 7 (DOS) vs 3 (SNES).  Expected, We All Fall Down, same deal as Tricky 2.

Mayhem

• 2: 18 [80/80] (DOS) vs 17 [99/100] (SNES).  Test pending for matching DOS 100% solution on SNES.
• 3: 4 (DOS) vs 6 (SNES).  Test pending.  I think we might even have found several different 4-skill solutions for DOS actually.  The main difference that can doom some of those solutions though, is that the timer runs faster on SNES so you actually have less time to complete level compare to DOS.  Still, I suggest you take another look at this.
• 4: 4 (DOS) vs 5 (SNES).  SNES has 100 instead of 50 lemmings and faster timer, so the 4-skill solution runs out of time.
• 5: 13 18 [76/80] (DOS) vs 14 [95/100] [76/80] (SNES).  DOS solution relies on digger behavior (ie. digging down full length of pole without taking out all 3 columns of pixels of pole) that doesn't work on SNES.
• 6: 9 (DOS) vs 10 (SNES).  [Analysis pending...]
• 7: 14 (DOS) vs 13 (SNES).  [ccexplore confirmed 13-skill for DOS]
• 9: 13 (DOS) vs 14 (SNES).  DOS solution uses the same staircase trick as on Fun 29, that doesn't work on SNES for reasons previously explained.
• 10: 31 [73/75] (DOS) vs 24 [72/75] (SNES).  Test pending for matching DOS solution on SNES.
• 11: 9 (DOS) vs 3 (SNES).  We All Fall Down for the last time.
• 12: 5 (DOS) vs 15 (SNES).  DOS solution exploits a very special glitch that lets you get through the steel and go directly to the exit.  I strongly suspect that won't work on SNES, but will test.
• 14: 18 (DOS) vs 17 (SNES).  [ccexplore confirmed 17-skill for DOS]
• 16: 2 (DOS) vs 4 (SNES).  DOS solution relies on very precise release rate manipulations to allow a "dig then bash" solution to work out.  SNES doesn't allow changing release rate while paused so you are severely constrained on how much you can jump from one release rate to another.  The timer also runs down slower on DOS so you actually get more time compared to SNES.  My guess is you can't do 2 on SNES, but will test.
• 17: 12 (DOS) vs 11 (SNES).  [LemSteven confirmed 11-skill for DOS]
• 18: 20 (DOS) vs 18 (SNES).  [LemSteven confirmed 18-skill for DOS]
• 21: 28 (DOS) vs 56 (SNES).  On DOS there's a way to get a safe landing with one builder, so that you don't have to use all 50 floaters.  It turns out on SNES, the lemmings emerge from the entrance one pixel further right compared to DOS, and that's enough to land them on the next lower step of the builder bridge, which turns out to be just 1 pixel too long a fall to survive.
• 22: 16 (DOS) vs 14 (SNES).  [LemSteven confirmed 14-skill for DOS]
• 23: 18 (DOS) vs 16 (SNES).  [LemSteven confirmed 16-skill for DOS]
• 25: 12 (DOS) vs 13 (SNES).  [MASTER-88 confirmed 12-skill for SNES as well]
• 26: 17 [76/80] (DOS) vs 17 [95/100] (SNES).  The DOS version gives you 20 builders instead of 10 like on SNES.  This DOS solution uses 11 builders, so unfortunately not doable on SNES.  I don't see a way so far to adapt the solution to 10 builders, so 95/100 may be it for SNES.
• 27: 3 (DOS) vs 4 (SNES).  Like Mayhem 16, DOS solution relies on very precise release rate manipulations to make things work out, and DOS also gives you a little more time.  So my guess is you can't do the DOS solution on SNES but will test.
• 28: 7 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES).  Both solution uses the ceiling-bash route, but so far (more testing later) on SNES we haven't found a way to get past the second metal (the one with the trap below), hence the extra skills.
• 29: 21 [78/80] (DOS) vs 23 [97/100] (SNES).  The DOS version lacks water below the steel block where lemmings land on.  This lets you steel-glitch your way sufficient far down the steel that you can actually build west from the start instead of east (and need a blocker to turn the build bridge around).  As this can't be done on SNES, the maximum saved on that version will likely remain 97.
• 30: 38 25 (DOS) vs 25 (SNES).  Level is actually slightly different:  on the left side, there is a part where SNES can use only 5 builders to go across, but on DOS the same part is wider in length and requires 7 builders.  Also, SNES current solution on right side builds into level's right boundary which on SNES will turn lemmings around, that doesn't work on DOS.  However, it is expected that by adopting moves used in DOS solution, SNES should be able to reduce skill count here by at least 1, possibly 2 if it can also replicate the miner behavior used in DOS solution.

Looks like we didn't actually do a very good job for DOS on Taxing and Mayhem.   Hopefully some of your SNES solutions on those levels can work on DOS too, and improve the records for that version.  Thanks again!

[Proxima]

Looks like we didn't actually do a very good job for DOS on Taxing and Mayhem.   Hopefully some of your SNES solutions on those levels can work on DOS too, and improve the records for that version.  Thanks again!

It seems this was one of the last challenges that needed to be finished when overall interest in challenges declined, and Minim filled in a lot of gaps with his own results. I'm grateful for the hard work, but I don't have the same confidence in Minim's results being final that I would if it were you or Clam The lack of closure on Wicked 6 is especially vexing, since I don't think we have any confirmation that the current "record" has actually ever been achieved.

Maybe if I can work out how to set up Lemmix players on my new HD, I could help out with some of the results again

[MASTER-88]

About taxing 1: Time limit in level is 4 minutes. Fun solution have 8 minutes. So there is no enought time make this long bashing like fun 15. As far as i can tell its requires 6 minutes time limit.

4: 4 (DOS) vs 5 (SNES).  Ok, I just attached a screenshot of the DOS solution showing where to bash.  I can't imagine this not working on SNES, unless you run out of time or something.  You tell me

About Mayhem 4: 4 basher solution working in level, but you need more than one minute time. I used it Fun 25, but its take longer than one minute. This time limit is problem. Snes version also includes 100 lemmings. Dos 80 and also timer run faster.
so this there is not time make this in one minute. See fun 25 (4 basher solution) Here you really can see and realize difference about timer. 1 minutes is not enought in any theory used tha way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhPLhRmVcR4&list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj2iavqxLhsm1cPpoklWfqch&index=25

Mayhem 12

I strongly suspect that won't work on SNES, but will test.

I am tested that, but its will stop bashing middle of steel.

Mayhem 21

21: 28 (DOS) vs 56 (SNES).  There's a way to get a safe landing with one builder, so that you don't have to use all 50 floaters

IIRC i am checked out this before and then this doesn´t work. I will try it again and look can one builder are enought. But i am quite sure its doesn´t even you can take it with longer distance. But i´ll check out this better yet.

Mayhem 21 is tested pixel by pixel and this DOS strategy doesn´t work on SNES. Two picture proof it
Pic 1: Last pixel you can command builder without turning
Pic 2: Building is done and lemmings still dies


EDIT:
I also test mayhem 21 midair, but its doensn´t work
Pic 1 Midair
Pic 2 Midair done

EDIT: 2:
However this is really close one (one build gap will needed), but i personally can´t find pixel correct pixel. Someone else might could test that level better. If basher take any longer you can build midair, but its will always turning back. Probably frame perfect releaserate manipulations and etc.. things could make it possible make on SNES version too. But i really cant find that myself. So its impossible as long as someone make it working.

EDIT: 3 BTW: I´ll very thankfully if you guys can give me more tips about tricky 12 (9 skills) Thats look i yesterday make its pure accidentally succesfully, but i forget how hell i did it my TAS. Spending try two more hour today my emulator, but i really can,t make that all again correct. So i can really forget attempts record that my console system. This piss me off so much.

[namida]

Maybe if I can work out how to set up Lemmix players on my new HD, I could help out with some of the results again

https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=download_list&program=42

All of these are self-contained EXEs. (Except CustLemmix, which works the same way CustLemm did.) They've also got a few fixes with regards to accuracy-to-DOS (most notably, EricLang's code made traps faster than they should be, and didn't implement the nuke glitch) compared to the original code by EricLang.

[ccexplore]

About taxing 1: Time limit in level is 4 minutes. Fun solution have 8 minutes. So there is no enough time make this long bashing like fun 15. As far as i can tell its requires 6 minutes time limit.

I checked and DOS Taxing 1 9-skill solution is actually a bit different from the Fun solution, but on DOS it still leaves only 3 seconds on the timer.  Since on SNES the timer runs down faster, it'll almost certainly be out of time.

Mayhem 12

I strongly suspect that won't work on SNES, but will test.

I am tested that, but its will stop bashing middle of steel.

You haven't tested with the glitch required to make it work though, this is not just your regular "I can remove a little bit of steel" trick.  The glitch lets you assign a digger to a walking lemming standing completely on steel, when there is already another old working digger under the cursor.  The new digger will only dig down 2 pixels before stopping but it's enough.  You actually need to apply the glitch twice in this level, to get far enough into the steel block (basically halfway through it) to start bashing.  I attached a screenshot of what it looks like on DOS.

Mayhem 21
EDIT:
I also test mayhem 21 midair, but its doensn´t work
Pic 1 Midair
Pic 2 Midair done

EDIT: 2:
However this is really close one (one build gap will needed), but i personally can´t find pixel correct pixel. Someone else might could test that level better. If basher take any longer you can build midair, but its will always turning back. Probably frame perfect releaserate manipulations and etc.. things could make it possible make on SNES version too. But i really cant find that myself. So its impossible as long as someone make it working.

Ok, I finally tested this.  It turns out on SNES, the lemmings emerge from the entrance one pixel further right compared to DOS.  That turns out to be enough to land the lemmings on the next lower step of the build bridge, which turns out to be just one pixel too much to survive fall.  So the DOS solution doesn't work on SNES by literally one pixel. The basher's dent can't be more than 3 pixels inside the wall for the builder to keep building after one brick without turning around (the builder is at the maximum right when with its first build brick, only the brick's leftmost pixel is outside the wall).  The DOS solution already starts building at that position, so you can't start building any further right either (to try to compensate for the difference on SNES).

[MASTER-88]

17: 6 (DOS) vs 8 (SNES).  (There's a typo in MASTER-88's list, it's 8 not 7.)

Its not typo. I count there is 41 skills and 34 will be remain. Its 7 skills (5 climber, 5 bomber, 20 builder, 5 basher & 6 miner) =41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mDQvkk3LiI&list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj136snR0XiQSGv4jxL4135B&index=17

[ccexplore]

My bad, apparently I was looking at an older version of your videos (https://archive.org/details/taxing0110012points).

[MASTER-88]

Finally make Tricky 12 Bitter lemming with 9 skills my real console condition. Thats really take time planning this even ccexplore give me awesome releaserate tip. Even then this level was really hard figured out.

Just spending hours practice that my emulator and finally was ready make it my console.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQqwVdkzBZY

[MASTER-88]

5: 18 [76/80] (DOS) vs 14 [95/100] (SNES).  It's definitely possible to not need a blocker on the right side of the level, but it's a little hard to explain how.  I'll make a separate post on this later.  I'll start though by saying you want to leave the release rate at the initial 80 and wait for everyone to come out first before you start digging down, this keeps the lemmings bunched up tightly into just 6 distinct bunches.  SNES solution for getting 96/100 might take more skills than DOS because you can't use one digger to dig down the thin pillar without breaking through it (ie. same reason we had to find a different way for you to do Fun 28 on SNES).

This is actually 76/80 saved SNES version. But its show 95% because there is not 100 lemmings. Also SNES version includes 80 lemmings in this level so 95% is 4 lemmings lost (all 4 used blockers at end) So 76/80 (95%) using 14 skills is my best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcffs76nwrY

28: 7 (DOS) vs 9 (SNES).  Given the low number of skills I assume the SNES solution also goes through the ceiling?  Will have to test and see the precise differences between the DOS and SNES solution.  I suspect this may be relying on some quirk on DOS related to builders and ceiling, that may not replicate on SNES; will test.

Yeah my solution use ceiling glitch, but that look digger is mandatory to use before it let you bashing this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOdJYHVlBBY&list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj3qTY_z-MWqhoM0AryLTdd1&index=28

I did several test my emulator and around test pixel by pixel, but three things will happen
1: If you build pixel too low its will get hit with roof and turning
2: If you start bash too low lemmings will falling See picture 2
3: If you bash too high lemmings will cancel his bashing. See picture 1

Thats look like its all depend one single pixel once again.

No idea how about 7 skills is possible on DOS. At least this 2nd metal is way too strong with SNES version and basher can,t bash it through. So i used digger, builder and basher before goal.

You guys might test out this better, but its strongly looks 9 skills is mandatory on SNES version.

[ccexplore]

At least this 2nd metal is way too strong with SNES version and basher can,t bash it through. So i used digger, builder and basher before goal.

I see.  DOS can be made to not have that trouble there.  I'll do some more testing later, but I can believe SNES behaving differently when it comes to checking for stuff (like metal for basher) that's technically outside the regular level map.  9 would be the minimum for sure if you can't get past the second metal.