Author Topic: Revenge of the Lemmings 3.0 (Read 23485 times)

mobius · « **on:** July 24, 2016, 12:56:04 AM »

Since NeoLemmix has undergone some major changes since the last version was released; a lot of new things need to be considered before making another update to this level pack. Should I lock the old topic? I'd prefer discussion to go here since this version will be quite different; a ton of new people are here since last time, and quite a lot of things need to be addressed/argued since there are varying opinions on levels.
To make things easier (for me mostly); people can post their own here. In particular if a level of yours is in the pack and has known issues, post it. Also discussion regarding the order of levels/ secret levels/ and levels to be removed or added.

Also since physics changes have been made as well; there might be new issues that were not present before. Additional testing for this may be required.

Note: I have not yet familiarized myself with the new NeoLemmix. I will do that as soon as I can. I can't promise it will be immediately.

namida · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2016, 01:14:24 AM »

Currently, it's being advised that all content be created for the stable version (V1.43n-F), which isn't too different from any version that supports NXPs. There'll probably be much larger concerns when the big update comes around, but that's still a while away - the needed changes to graphic sets, replays and physics are more or less done, but that's it.

mobius · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2016, 11:38:54 PM »

to start off; these are the secret levels. It needs to be discussed what to do with them.

rank 1
picnic:
In the Swamp (Dragon'sLover)
In The Countree (MZ)
Edge of Oblivion (group)

rank2:
they just won't climb that wall
Leaky Building Syndrome
Dig This!
Lem Ramp Scam

rank3:
Mental Process (I.S.)
Bunker Hill (hubbart)

rank4:
Land of Nightmares (Proxima [has okayed removal])
Lemming Cliche (Ellischant)
Ball Bearing (Crane)

rank 5:
Fallout Boys (MZ)
Singular Squish (Clam)

rank6:
Case of Floating Dots (Gronkling)
Teir Drops (Crane)

rank7:
There's a method in the Madness (geoo)
I won't Say I'm in Lem (Dodo)
From the Brink (Clam)

---------

I'm in favor of removing the following:
In the Countree, Edge of Oblivion, Dig This!, Bunker Hill, Land of Nightmares, Fallout Boys, Singular Squish, Case of Floating Dots

ones I'm not sure whether I'm in favor or not:
Lemming Cliche, There's a method in the Madness, I won't Say I'm in Lem, From the Brink

Other Notes:

since at least one person has solved The Shaft (part 1) the intended way of part 2, missing the gimmick entirely I suggest either altering the first one so the second's solution isn't possible or removing it.

Feel free to mention other levels that you feel for one reason or another could be removed.

Crane · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2016, 04:11:51 AM »

Here's my current selection of updated levels. The update to Crystal Caves is to make the "4 Miners" talisman a bit fairer to achieve (the terrain on the rightmost trapdoor made it unfairly precise).

I've also made potential backroute fixes to "Clonic Inferno" and "A Bid Farewell", also attaching replays showcasing what I think is the intended solution for each. I'm not sure if the latter opens a backroute though.

- Clonic Inferno - left walls are now steel.
- A Bid Farewell - extra terrain just to the right of the steel blocks, so lemmings will walk up it.

I can't be sure if the music tracks are correctly assigned.

NOTE: Nemesis still has a secret level trigger.

Crane · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2016, 04:34:42 AM »

Regarding "From the Brink", I do like the level, but I for one have no clue how to complete it even after well over a year! I will be so grateful if someone can enlighten me!

bulletride · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2016, 03:44:15 PM »

I fixed a bunch of my levels and sent them to Wafflem a little while back, let me know if you need me to re-upload them here (I might give them another look over and re-upload them anyway).

I wouldn't mind if Almost Easy was removed from the pack and either replaced with a bonus level or one of my other levels.

As far as bonus levels go, I have not played most of them yet but In the Countree was a great level and I think it should stay in the game.

Nepster · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2016, 04:34:44 PM »

EDIT: Read Simon's hint first, try "From the Brink" again and only if you are still making no progress read my spoilers. It is a MUCH bigger spoiler!

If the ROTL level "From the Brink" is pretty much the same as clam's level in the database, then try...

Big Spoilers (click to show/hide)

Warning: The level in the database will not be solvable in the experimental version of NeoLemmix without adding two floaters to the skill set.

Simon · « **Reply #7 on:** August 01, 2016, 04:37:12 PM »

Make an extra ~~directory~~ rank, dump everything in it. Then you aren't pressed to remove anything, unless the level is bad by itself.

Hint for From the Brink (click to show/hide)

-- Simon

Wafflem · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2016, 04:41:19 PM »

Quote from: Simon on August 01, 2016, 04:37:12 PM

Make an extra ~~directory~~ rank, dump everything in it. Then you aren't pressed to remove anything, unless the level is bad by itself.

Agreed, this is something that I myself am thinking should be added.

möbius also posted some hints in the old Revenge of the Lemmings topic. I myself haven't beaten it.

I already sent BulletRide's fixes to möbius. I also agree that In The Countree should not be removed, it's a unique one-worker-lemming level in the sense that you have no bashers and still proves a challenge. Plus, can't not love the scenery!

Detailed comments will come in a future post!

Crane · « **Reply #9 on:** August 02, 2016, 12:47:57 AM »

I finally got it thanks to Simon's hint. Not sure why I didn't consider that before, but timing is everything. But now that I know the solution... wow! That level is absolutely genius, but I can see why it's a secret level, and also why "From the Brink" is such a brilliant name for it too. Please don't remove it!!

I'm not sure how I missed möbius' clues. I would have gotten it too from reading the first few of those. I've saved a replay, but I'm not sure if I should post it yet because I don't want to spoil it for everyone, even if people read Nepster's spoiler.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I forgot to fix one of my levels, which namida backrouted thanks to some precise miner use. Here is my updated version of "Prize Catch", with a slightly thicker barrier and wider metal floor.

Crane · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2016, 05:24:32 PM »

Personally I'd keep "The Shaft" (part 1), as it teaches players to look more carefully or otherwise make it hard on themselves. Plus there is a "Save 100%" talisman for that level, which isn't possible with part 2, and that should clue in any kind of achievement hunter (or at least make them look around).

ADDITIONAL: Here's an update to the Picnic level "Song of the Lemming", which reintroduces one of the one-way walls that appears in "Perfect Harmony", just so it's not painfully easy as namida demonstrated.

Regarding the "Through Fire and Flames: No Builders" talisman, I recommend adding "Save 100%" to it as well. It was my intention when I originally suggested it, but forgot to be explicit. It doesn't increase the difficulty that much really.

mobius · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2016, 12:49:42 AM »

The total number of levels in the pack was currently somewhere around 210. IMO this is too many and I think I should've cut back before it's release but it's too late now for that. But anyways, I'm not in favor of adding any more. If there's enough levels to add, I'd rather put that in a new pack altogether.

as of now the levels to be removed are:
In the swamp
Edge of Oblivion
Dig This!
Bunker Hill
Singular Squish
Case of Floating Dots
Almost Easy

Ones I'm still not sure about:

Fallout Boys

Lemming Cliche and Method in the Madness I mention because they are rehashes from the original game. I'm okay with that but I'm curious about others opinions.

Mental Process; this idea is sort of similar to other levels we have and more tedious than them.
Leaky Building Syndrome [a tricky builder level with a pretty similar vain to Builder's Cracks]

I'll consider moving the exit in Land of Nightmares and keeping it [and making it visible]

Crane · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2016, 01:29:06 AM »

I actually don't mind the large number of levels that Revenge of the Lemmings provides. It keeps players busy for a long time and shows off the wide variety of designs that people have come up with, and shows it as a massive extension to the original games.

I don't mind rehashes of original levels personally - to be honest, the Fun levels are the most... fun with this because you can create some interesting new challenges and puzzles with them simply by limiting what tools you can use or by trying to save 100%, say. Other times, when you need something simple like a one-way obstacle, then levels like "Keep your hair on, Mr. Lemming" are more than suitable for the task.

I think "In the swamp..." is okay for a secret level or even a regular level because it's a 1-lemming level, which are quite uncommon in the grand scheme of things. I don't think much of "Edge of Oblivion" though. It feels... unrefined or unfinished. Not sure. Plus it just boils down to a mammoth building exercise that the original Lemmings was infamous for.

"The Land of Nightmares" is just annoying in its current form. I tried completing it myself without looking at the file in an editor, and gave up. It turned out that I bashed right underneath it at one point as well.

I agree that Mental Process is somewhat tedious and sort of ruins the uniqueness of the Mario-themed level (although I believe a third one exists, "They just won't climb the wall"). Some secret levels really offer something unique or challenging though, and they are secret after all, so part of the fun is hunting them down.

namida · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2016, 03:59:23 PM »

The reason for removing secret levels is because NeoLemmix itself will be dropping support for them in the future (experimental versions have already removed support). The same goes for all gimmicks, except for zombies (which will no longer be a gimmick as such, but rather, just another feature).

Crane · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2016, 04:08:33 PM »

Oh I see. I've been away for about a year and am well behind the times! I guess "From the Brink" will now be Armageddon 30!

Wafflem · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2016, 05:10:10 PM »

I've played through Revenge of the Lemmings a couple of times. Note that I have not beaten all the levels, but I feel I can notice when a hard level is in an easy rank. Here are my thoughts on what levels should be changed:

Picnic (click to show/hide)

Hootenanny (click to show/hide)

Devious (click to show/hide)

Frenzy (click to show/hide)

Pain (click to show/hide)

Carnage (click to show/hide)

Armageddon (click to show/hide)

Crane · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2016, 05:39:02 PM »

My choice in music for "Duality" was down to how beautiful the solution was, in my opinion. This was back when it was Armageddon 29 though (and Armageddon 30 was "Oh No! Not Again!", which shared music with the very first level to indicate the game coming full circle). Isn't the current selection of NeoLemmix' Frenzy music suitable as a final level track for "From the Brink"?

Levels I can think off-hand that I don't think are particularly good levels. Nothing against its creators, but I personally don't like them:

- The Land of Nightmares (in its current form)
- Tribute to Benny Hill (this one is just annoying and tedious)
- Oh No! Not Again!

Ones I think should be kept above all others (once again, due to personal opinion):

- Betcha can't save just one!
- Mastermined
- A Break in the Pillar (this one is the perfect tease!)
- Builders' Cracks (an almost-pure Builder level that is genuinely difficult and intriguing)
- Duality (As beautiful as the solution is, I personally think this level works better as a penultimate level rather than the final level, although I can't give a solid reason why... just a feeling)
- From the Brink

Those are the ones that come to mind anyway. I'm not at my home computer currently.

I agree with a music change for Waltz in C Sharp Miner, but I don't know offhand the track that you're suggesting - do you have a filename for it? I recall that Proxima loved the standard Tetris theme for its easier version, Minesweeper Lemmings, but even I've started to dislike the "Tetris B" theme, I think because it's a bit too grating.

Wafflem · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2016, 10:07:31 PM »

Quote from: Crane on August 03, 2016, 05:39:02 PM

My choice in music for "Duality" was down to how beautiful the solution was, in my opinion. This was back when it was Armageddon 29 though (and Armageddon 30 was "Oh No! Not Again!", which shared music with the very first level to indicate the game coming full circle). Isn't the current select of NeoLemmix' Frenzy music suitable as a final level track for "From the Brink"?

That's a valid point. Admittedly, I have never beaten Duality, and if the solution fits the current music then that is fine.

You're right, From the Brink's music does have that final-level feel.

Quote from: Crane on August 03, 2016, 05:39:02 PM

I agree with a music change for Waltz in C Sharp Miner, but I don't know offhand the track that you're suggesting - do you have a filename for it? I recall that Proxima loved the standard Tetris theme for its easier version, Minesweeper Lemmings, but even I've started to dislike the "Tetris B" theme, I think because it's a bit too grating.

This post is where Proxima shares his music suggestion. I myself admittedly don't mind the Tetris B theme, but I don't mind it being changed either.

Suggestions for levels with the Tetris B music:
Hootenanny 10 "Lem Dunk" should use the same one as first heard in Picnic 3 "Road Block" (it's the Jaguar XJ220 game theme song, I think).
Pain 10 "Balancing Act" should use the same music as in Devious 10 "Cliffhanger" (also heard in Stormy 6 "A Breezy Breeze!" of PimoLems)

mobius · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2016, 01:07:23 AM »

I like the idea of removing the tutorial levels; but I don't feel like adding any more X-of-everything levels. This would allow more room for regular levels. [And I think there's enough Fun levels

Nepster's one of the few people who gave any praise for Oh No, Not Again. Quite a few people strongly disliked this level, as of now I'll be removing it.

If From the Brink stays, I think it'll definitely be the final level. It's certainty the hardest.

I'm still unsure about how to handle the backroutes of Duality. Namida's solution is very close to Yawg's intended and forces that (which would be surprisingly easy) would remove a ton of other solutions. However numerous people have liked this level and found it quite difficult as-is. Plus Crane has achievements for it as-is. Not sure yet if this would be effected.

@Wafflem: just curious tell me or send replay for Top Shelf. I still very much plan to remove this one--it's too similar to another and there's no good way to remove the backroute.

@Crane: Tribute to Benny Hill, awww, I really enjoyed this one, although I admit it can be tedious; this could be fixed a little bit. I think this level is very unique. But if it doesn't get a lot of love, I'll consider removing it.

Note: I'll discuses achievements later; once we have this all straigthened out.

Proxima · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2016, 01:47:04 AM »

If I'm thinking of the right level, Top Shelf is the same level as Bipolar Maniac in the Lix community set. That one only wants a single trick to solve, but it's a very hard trick to spot, and the level offers many plausible directions to go that don't lead anywhere. I remember, when Insane Steve first built the Lix version, spending ages on it without getting anywhere. I haven't played many of the top-tier levels so maybe it doesn't belong in Armaggedon, but I definitely wouldn't drop it down lower than Carnage.

Oh No, Not Again is notorious for being one of the hardest ever levels to solve -- even people like Nepster report having taken months over it. I haven't solved it myself, but I've certainly found it an interesting level to attempt, and don't see anything wrong with it, other than dependence on time limit (and considering that RotL includes a lot of older content, probably it still has a fair number of time-limited levels?) Sadly, because of time limit dependence we may have to remove it from the Lix pack (unless we can find a good way to fix it, which isn't necessarily impossible) so it would be sad to see it cut from RotL as well.

GigaLem · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2016, 02:41:45 AM »

I dont mean to go off topic,but unless im missing an update, there needs to be a final level post message too

Crane · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2016, 04:32:33 PM »

This is the great thing about Lemmings... everyone has different preferences to level types and the lists of best and worst levels are often very different if you ask different people. For a minor example, I didn't think much of Herculems, if only because I had issues with timed bombers and positioning when I first played it on Lemmini, but almost everyone else feels it is an absolutely brilliant level. Even with my own levels, I don't feel too strongly about "Lemming Cathodes" and "Sharing a Climber?" because they were the 3rd and 1st levels respectively I had ever designed from scratch, hence I was far less experienced, but these are considered quite good levels by the community, as evidenced by their inclusion in Revenge of the Lemmings.

And yes, some kind of ending screen would be nice, as currently it just takes you back to Picnic 1.

Wafflem · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2016, 07:16:40 PM »

I'll post my Top Shelf replay when I get back home.

Another thing to consider - should we make it as far as to remove either all or just some easier repeats of harder levels and replace those with different levels? There are so many great levels out there that could have been used in this pack, especially in a pack of 210 levels. It appears that not a lot of people like repeats in packs, and many of the recent packs use very few to no repeats. Even Lemmings Redux avoids the idea of repeats.

I also still think we should consider a Bonus rank for levels we choose to remove, much like Pieuw's Extra rank in PimoLems and namida's Recycle Bin. It will be great bonus content for those who have completed the main game but want to play more levels, or a breather rank if people are currently tired out by the main game (e.g. Colorful Arty playing the Extra rank after completing the Stormy levels in his PimoLems video playthrough).

mobius · « **Reply #23 on:** August 05, 2016, 01:07:53 AM »

I like the Extra rank idea a lot. In that case; most or all of these levels I'm proposing to remove will be put in this extra rank [unless it goes over 30 but I highly doubt that].

also you're right that apparently the consensus is now that repeats are dumb, which honestly makes me sad; I really like the concept and use them at least a little in my own packs. But regardless; if that's the consensus then I'll consider removing some or all of the repeat/easy levels I made. Keep in mind part of the reason I added the new rank in the beginning was a lot of people complained that the first version got too difficult too quickly.

@GigaLem I never thought about a post message; didn't even know that was a thing... but good thought. Some else should write a congratulations message though, I have no ideas.

Wafflem · « **Reply #24 on:** August 05, 2016, 01:13:15 AM »

That's a very good point that a lot of people found the first version of ROTL too hard; even I myself found it difficult (most especially since the Final Countdown was Picnic 30!). There's a lot of easy levels out there though, so I can look through what Nepster and I have converted from Lemmix-to-NeoLemmix to see what we can put there.

Here is my replay for The Top Shelf. If my solution is intended, I would keep it and try to fix the backroute.

Proxima · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2016, 01:29:33 AM »

Quote from: möbius on August 05, 2016, 01:07:53 AM

also you're right that apparently the consensus is now that repeats are dumb, which honestly makes me sad; I really like the concept and use them at least a little in my own packs. But regardless; if that's the consensus then I'll consider removing some or all of the repeat/easy levels I made.

I don't think such a consensus exists. I think what you're seeing is that people who don't like X (for any value of X) are liable to be vocal about not liking X, whereas people who like X or are indifferent might not see the need to say anything.

Of course, there are special cases -- Lemmings Redux was mentioned. This is explicitly a collection of what we (as near to consensus as we can establish) consider the best levels of the original games. Except for the Genesis levels, all the repeats in the original Lemmings are n-of-each levels that were added when the developers realised there weren't enough easy levels to get the player started. We've kept a few of these, but mostly we'd rather give space to other interesting easy levels, such as the better levels of the PSP set.

I don't know what the situation is with Revenge of the Lemmings; the community has made a ton of levels, so maybe you could find easy levels that are better than the repeats you currently have. On the other hand, in general the better designers find it more interesting to work on harder levels, so you might not find that many easy levels of good quality.

Simon · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2016, 02:01:52 AM »

Quote from: Proxima on August 05, 2016, 01:29:33 AM

Quote from: möbius on August 05, 2016, 01:07:53 AM
apparently the consensus is now that repeats are dumb
I don't think such a consensus exists. I think what you're seeing is that people who don't like X (for any value of X) are liable to be vocal about not liking X, whereas people who like X or are indifferent might not see the need to say anything.

This. I have ranted against repeats in IRC. Except for Akseli popping in shortly, I haven't seen any support against repeats. There are several arguments on both sides.

Whoever wants to know details, they're welcome to start a dedicated level design thread.

-- Simon

Crane · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2016, 02:31:07 PM »

I'm actually fine with repeat levels. It provides a brief trip down memory lane to when the levels were easier(!) and with some of the levels, the easy version offers no clues as to how the hard version plays out (i.e. Singularity -> Duality and Hunting Season -> Wish you had them?). I wouldn't want too many levels from Picnic removed. For one, I enjoyed Minesweeper Lemmings more than Waltz in C Sharp Miner.

Proxima · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2016, 02:44:33 PM »

Quote from: Crane on August 05, 2016, 02:31:07 PM

For one, I enjoyed Minesweeper Lemmings more than Waltz in C Sharp Miner.

That's an interesting example. The Cheapo original was made for a multi-rank level pack I never finished, and each rank was going to have one special level. There were repeats in the pack, but all the special levels were unique. The repeat came into existence when I remade this level for the Lix community set. We needed more easy levels, and I felt that Waltz, with its multiple hatches, would be a good candidate for a fun easy-repeat.

Wafflem · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2016, 06:40:10 PM »

If people don't really want to remove repeats (that is why I suggested some, not all), I still think only the skill tutorial levels should be removed.

This would mean Picnic 1-9. I'm okay with tutorials that teach medium-to-advanced tricks, which is why I'm okay with keeping Picnic 10 "Arrow Keys Will Help You Here!" (again, assuming we don't remove all repeats), as it teaches two tricks - the directional select and the digger holding cells. I would however move that level to later-Picnic.

Picnic 6 is Play Bridge, the difference being that this version has 50 builders and is a left and right-facing entrance (i.e. lemmings come out facing right and left). If the skill tutorial levels are removed, this level will then have to be reverted to its original version, which belongs in Hootenanny (and should be switched with the Endless Steps as that level becomes tons easier with instant bombers).

"In the swamp" can then be placed in early-Picnic.

mobius · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2016, 02:43:45 PM »

@Wafflem; that is the solution to Top Shelf

good work. That level is very hard.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll remove the main tutorials and maybe some of the repeats which aren't that popular. [and welcome some suggestions on new levels to add]

Crane · « **Reply #31 on:** August 06, 2016, 03:44:01 PM »

Wouldn't a better backroute patch to make the floor only a pixel thick around the trapdoor's vicinity?

Proxima · « **Reply #32 on:** August 06, 2016, 03:58:32 PM »

Or just reduce the number of lemmings.

mobius · « **Reply #33 on:** August 06, 2016, 04:15:34 PM »

excellent ideas! Nobody's had those until now

.

Note: for anyone making changes to levels if you upload a level here please use the following format for titling the file: XXX level title here. XXX being three numbers used to identify the level's place. Example: 305 = third rank, fifth level.

I'm not sure about this no---I'm trying to find a better way to organize the levels. Just title them for now and don't bother with numbers if you want.

mobius · « **Reply #34 on:** August 06, 2016, 04:45:04 PM »

Quote from: Wafflem on August 03, 2016, 05:10:10 PM

I've played through Revenge of the Lemmings a couple of times. Note that I have not beaten all the levels, but I feel I can notice when a hard level is in an easy rank. Here are my thoughts on what levels should be changed:

Hootenanny (click to show/hide)
Hootenanny 2 "Lemming In a Cone" strongly belongs in Devious. I feel this level is a huge step-up in difficulty and is harder than the later Hootenanny levels, and there is a trick used there that not many people know about.

Hootenanny 3 "Kung Fu Bashing" , Hootenanny 4 "Bat Country" and Hootenanny 6 "No Loitering" belong in later-Hootenanny.

Hootenanny 9 "Not as easy as it looks" should be in very-early Hootenanny, especially seeing as that it is tons easier than Lemming in a Cone.

Hootenanny 17 "The endless steps" is better in early-Hootenanny, especially seeing as that instant bombers make this one a lot easier.

Hootenanny 21 "Turn it around!" might work better in early-Hootenanny, it's a simple tutorial level teaching players the bridge-wall trick and showing that you only need three builders to make that wall.

Hootenanny 27 "Crossing Paths" should be moved to later-Devious. I myself found this to be way too hard for a Hootenanny level.

Hootenanny 31 "They just won't climb the wall" should be moved to mid-to-late Hootenanny.

Hootenanny 34 "Lem ramp scam" may work in late-Devious.

Devious (click to show/hide)
Devious 2 "Ball Pit", Devious 4 "Crossing the Chasm", Devious 6 "Inside the Pyramid", Devious 10 "Cliffhanger" and Devious 14 "The Windmill" might be better in Hootenanny.

Devious 24 "Subterranean", I have a feeling that it might work better in Frenzy. I haven't beaten it yet though.

Devious 25 "Builderless work" might work better as early-Devious.

Frenzy (click to show/hide)
Frenzy 10 "Dilemma" is too easy for Frenzy and should be moved to early-Devious, maybe even late-Hootenanny.

Frenzy 11 "Leap of Faith" might work as the first level of Frenzy instead.

Frenzy 26 "Take it Like a Lemming" should be switched with Armageddon 8 "The Lemmyrinth". The Lemmyrinth seriously does not belong in Armageddon.

Pain (click to show/hide)
Pain 26 "The Silent Circus" should be moved to Frenzy. Well, when mobius sent me the files, I saw that Pain 26 was already in Frenzy as Frenzy 26

Pain 30 "A Bid Farewell" ... hmm...should we change it back to the original title that Matthias Witt put (which was "Someone must help us!")?

Carnage (click to show/hide)
Carnage 12 "Honey I Shrunk the Levels" - the music should be changed to Lemmings 2 Classic. I don't think the music for this one would fit a level that uses Orig Lemmings levels. Besides, the Classic levels of Lemmings 2 also use the Pillar style, so the L2 music should fit better here.

Carnage 20 "Waltz in C Sharp Miner" - I'd like to go with Proxima's suggestion to use the Waltz song he suggested in the old ROTL topic.

Carnage 32 "Tier Drops" As I have not beaten many of the Frenzy-Armageddon levels, Tier Drops might work in late-Frenzy.

Armageddon (click to show/hide)
Armageddon 8 "The Lemmyrinth" as I said does not belong in Armageddon at all. It shouid be in late-Devious to early-Frenzy.

Armageddon 16 "The Top Shelf" might work better in Frenzy or Pain. This level (aside from the Lemmyrinth) is the only one I've solved in Armageddon.

Armageddon 30 "Duality" - I feel the music from Stormy 17 "Leaving on the Edge" of PimoLems works a lot better here, the music IMO gives that final-level feel. Even if this were Armageddon 29 if From the Brink becomes Armageddon 30, the PimoLems music will still work.

We should give From the Brink a music that has the feel of a final level if we are to move this to Armageddon 30.

Did you beat "Lem Ramp Scam"? the only reason this is in Hootenanny is because it was a secret. As a regular level IMO it's more of a Pain or even Carnage level. This level is quite unique and I really like it btw.

Do we have the Lemmings 2 Classic music in this pack? I don't remember that being in.
I'll change the title back to Someone must help us!
I put Take it Like a Lemming in Carnage for now. I might put it higher but a lot of feedback has several of the Armageddon levels easier than they really are because of backroutes.

Wafflem · « **Reply #35 on:** August 06, 2016, 06:02:13 PM »

Here's Lem Ramp Scam; I had another replay but it turned out to be in another computer.

Not sure if this is the solution as I didn't use all the blockers.

I'm not sure why I said Devious, I was kind of rushing when I made those comments.

Regarding the L2 Classic, here is the attachment; it also comes with IchoTolot's Lemmini verison of Lemmings Reunion. I've also sent it to you by PM weeks ago.

mobius · « **Reply #36 on:** August 08, 2016, 10:43:39 PM »

oh shoot-- that is a huge backroute to Lem Ramp Scam [trust me the intended solution is way cooler! Not that your solution wasn't ingenious as well, but like I said; this level's pretty unique]

at the moment I have no idea how to fix this

I'm hoping Clam's already fixed many of these (pretty sure at least one other level by his got backrouted). I can check Clamlix which he updated far more recently than these.

----

Everyone who has levels in this and had backroutes pretty much sent me the files to fix them already but in case you haven't; please consider if your levels have any serious problems now.

Now for the people who aren't around; I'll be going through the posts and namida's LP to look for the many backroutes I remember there being. I'll make a list here; anyone who can help fix them is welcome to try.

-----

I'm thinking of reverting FALL AND DIE to Clam's changes; 1. Because it's Clam's level so he should get a say, and 2. I think the comments that it was easier were made by people who had already solved the level so I think it's skewed. Others [Simon for one] who played the Lix version commented it was very difficult.

One level I sort of always wanted to add was Clam's "Switchback symmetry" but this level has a glitch RR that's lower than normal. I think this was necessary and I don't know if it's fixable/if Neolemmix would support this. I don't know if I'll invest any time to actually find a solution to this. I think Wafflem's idea is better to add some easer(ish) levels they found recently.

Crane · « **Reply #37 on:** August 14, 2016, 03:03:03 AM »

I've been playing through random levels here and there, looking for random backroutes, a possible talisman or an overlooked level.

One random thought that came up... I would like for the miner tutorial level "Ups and Downs" to remain, because completing it using only miners (which gives a bronze talisman) is actually pretty challenging, or is at least a test of precision in an otherwise easy rank.

mobius · « **Reply #38 on:** August 14, 2016, 08:30:12 PM »

renaming it to ROTL 3.0; imo a better title (3.0 is really only to indicate the version. 1 was the Lemmini version, 2 was the first NeoLemmix version. This will be the latest update (still for NeoLemmix))

I managed to work on a few levels over the weekend despite only having an old laptop without all my files.

----

Quote from: Crane on August 14, 2016, 03:03:03 AM

One random thought that came up... I would like for the miner tutorial level "Ups and Downs" to remain, because completing it using only miners (which gives a bronze talisman) is actually pretty challenging, or is at least a test of precision in an otherwise easy rank.

It would be odd to have 1 tutorial like level without the others. Unless there's other similar levels offering challenges. Or Keep all the tutorials or like-tutorial levels but making the challenges the actual solution. Maybe having that level (with just that challenge as the solution) would be good; albiet it might need to placed later.

Crane · « **Reply #39 on:** August 15, 2016, 01:17:46 AM »

Quote from: möbius on August 14, 2016, 08:30:12 PM

...
Quote from: Crane on August 14, 2016, 03:03:03 AM
One random thought that came up... I would like for the miner tutorial level "Ups and Downs" to remain, because completing it using only miners (which gives a bronze talisman) is actually pretty challenging, or is at least a test of precision in an otherwise easy rank.

It would be odd to have 1 tutorial like level without the others. Unless there's other similar levels offering challenges. Or Keep all the tutorials or like-tutorial levels but making the challenges the actual solution. Maybe having that level (with just that challenge as the solution) would be good; albiet it might need to placed later.

It's not a huge tutorial really, given you have floaters, blockers and builders as well, but not enough builders to finish the level with just them. The only other tutorial level that has a talisman, I think, is "Play Bridge", which demands you save everyone and don't use bashers.

mobius · « **Reply #40 on:** August 15, 2016, 02:50:25 PM »

I made several changes upon people's request; mostly typos or title changes, and re-ordered some levels

A few backroute fixes to "Top Shelf" and Descent Decent" per ISteve's request though he warns this may open up an old backroute. No other ideas for now. (And I still need to test this actually)

Floodgates Open time limit has been fixed.

Altered part 1 of "the Shaft" so the hard solution isn't possible.

Crane · « **Reply #41 on:** August 15, 2016, 03:47:47 PM »

Seems fair to make the hard solution impossible, and easy enough as well (removing that vertical plank of wood). I would argue that namida made it hard on himself by not properly looking at the entire level first, like roundthewheelrtw tends to do and also 'taught' in the Oh No! More Lemmings level "No Problemming".

Suggestion for the end text after Armageddon 30 (if it fits, while making less-than-subtle references to the rank name and what I hope will be the final level!):

Quote

After enduring a nightmarish journey and saving 76 lemmings From the Brink of Armageddon, you may now rest on your laurels in the knowledge that you are indeed a true master of Lemmings. Congratulations!

For an additional challenge, be sure to collect all of the talismans to further prove your worth to the lemming deities.

Be sure to thank us at http://www.lemmingsforums.net, where you may also seek out more devious puzzles from the developers that brought you Revenge of the Lemmings.

mobius · « **Reply #42 on:** August 17, 2016, 02:20:11 AM »

that sounds pretty good. Good point in reminding people about the talisman.

---
Just remembered that "Lem Ramp Scam" is very similar to another level. Since this is backrouted; I think I'll put this in the extra rank. No idea how to fix it anyway.

Wafflem · « **Reply #43 on:** August 17, 2016, 03:49:17 PM »

The Lemmyrinth should also go in the Extra rank. It's a very original concept, but not one that would work among the main ranks.

Alright, finally got some level suggestions to add so far:
2112 - Rhythm of Lem - a nice long level with lots of obstacles. Could work in Picnic.
ccexplore - Every Single One Counts! - this level was meant to demonstrate that you can make your own VGASPEC. However, it also functions like a regular level, and is very interesting because it has a lot of multitasking and you have to save 100%. This can go in the Extra Rank.
Chmera - The Great Migration '06 - perhaps this could be the very first Picnic level? Seems too easy and simple though, but I think it wouldn't hurt to start it simple. Also remove the '06 in the title.
Dullstar - The Ice Palace, The Waffle Express (was not inspired by my name!

), Attack of the Killer Toddlers - all of these were also suggested by Nepster in the NeoLemmix Community Pack. All three could work in Picnic. Attack of the Killer Todders especially teaches a trick.
Timfoxxy - One of Everything - an excellent and simple one-of-everything level. Place in Hootenanny.
Timballisto - Lemmings on the Roof - has a very clever and hidden solution. Place in Hootenanny.
TOG - Up and Around - this level is the type that teaches you that you don't always have to 100% a level, especially if the save requirement says so. Place in late-Picnic?
TOG - Roller Coaster - a good level that teaches the reverse miner trick. Place in early-Hootenanny.
TOG - Mind the Gap - a level with a very clever solution. Place in mid-Hootenanny.
Tumble Weed - Skill Your Lemmings - a good review of the eight traditional skills. This is different from a skill tutorial level. You already know how the traditional skills work, so no need for tutorials, but a review of how they work and when they should be used is different. A Picnic level.
Tumble Weed - Stairway - uses a lot of clever tricks, one of which is also used in Lemmings Plus I. Tumble Weed included this in his pack of best levels. This belongs in Devious.
Tumble Weed - Multiple Choice - haven't beaten this one, but Tumble Weed included this in his pack of best levels. It works in Armageddon possibly, and I feel Nepster's "Divide and Conquer" (Neutron Star 7) was inspired by this level.

For those who want to make any other suggestions to add, look through the Lemmix-to-NeoLemmix conversions.

I will go through more level packs and see which levels can be added.

mobius · « **Reply #44 on:** August 18, 2016, 12:18:00 AM »

thanks for zipping up all the levels here conveniently

----

While I said I like repeats, I am open to removing some of the early-version repeats if other people would like to. If you feel there are better levels to include, verses some already currently in Picnic.

---

I'll be completely re-creating Hotel in Hell (as necessary) If anybody wants to help you may.

I'm having trouble getting the special graphic levels to work again... I've put the graphic files in the right place... (I think, for Hotel in Hell for example; in the style folder under "Cheapo" + the vgaspec special file needed as well.) But the editor can't find it. When someone's on chat I'll try to get some help.

How do you get ccexplore's level to work? the vga spec won't show up. [All I see is entrances and the exit and water.

Wafflem · « **Reply #45 on:** August 18, 2016, 12:41:40 AM »

There are two solutions around the Cheapo problem:
1. When you open the level and it says "Select Style", click the drop down arrow, and select "NeoLemmix - Cheapo Styles".
2. (more convenient solution IMO): Just put all the graphic files in the NeoLemmix folder instead and open the level as normal.

Looking through the ROTL, the only easy repeat levels in the game are:
Picnic 1-10, 13, 15, 17-20, 22-25, 27-28, 30
Hootenanny 5

For me, I'm in favor of removing Picnic 1-9 (the tutorial levels), 19 ("Hunting Season", repeat of "Wish you had them?" Carnage 4 and 20 "Food For the Gods", repeat of Carnage 27 "Finding a Safe Place to Stay"). If we remove Picnic 6 which is "Play Bridge", we could replace that with the original version of Play Bridge (this version has 20 builders).

I'm thinking that if you want to keep Ups and Downs for its talisman, perhaps you can replace "The Endless Steps" (currently Hootenanny 17) with that? IMO "The endless steps" is too easy with instant bombers.

Regarding ccexplore's level, did you put the x_vgaspec0.dat in the NeoLemmix folder?

Also, a level I'd like to be brought back: "Conveyor Bolt" by Ellischant.

EDIT: Found another Picnic-worthy level: Blowtorches are Fun by Mossaic91.
EDIT 2: Turns out I put the wrong level for Tumble Weed's Skill Your Lemmings (it's And Out Come the Bashers...). Here is the correct version.

Crane · « **Reply #46 on:** August 18, 2016, 04:32:02 AM »

"Hunting Season" is a repeat of "Wish you had them?", the latter of which is notable for having no builders and looking almost impossible at first glance. Admittedly I selected some repeat levels to help fill up Picnic but which gave few clues as to how to solve their harder versions (in this case, "Hunting Season" and Picnic 28: "Singularity").

Wafflem · « **Reply #47 on:** August 19, 2016, 12:54:41 AM »

In IRC, möbius and I have agreed to add two of the levels I've suggested: The Great Migration '06 by Chmera as the very first level in ROTL (obviously the '06 must be removed), and Mind the Gap by TOG.

Pain and Armageddon are currently lacking in special graphics levels. Frenzy could count as well depending on what we do with the Land of Nightmares.

I have bundled an NXP of seven special graphics levels to see which can be put in those two to three ranks:
1. geoo's VGASPEC conversion of Insane Steve's Cheapo version of the Mon0lith
2. geoo's Supaplex Tricks...
3. geoo's Through the Thicket (actually, I think this VGASPEC's graphics come from the Outdoor Tribe)
4-7. Proxima's Repton levels.

NOTE: The Repton levels are Cheapo levels.

Crane · « **Reply #48 on:** August 20, 2016, 03:38:50 AM »

So I think my level "Deep Freeze" has made it into the next iteration of Revenge of the Lemmings, but we're not quite sure what rating it should go in. I've attached the latest version here, which requires saving 77 out of 80 lemmings and adds some extra decoration to give it a feeling of coldness. Any rating suggestions would be greatly appreciated, just don't let the fact that it's a 10-of-everything level lull you into a false sense of security!

I've also attached my latest version of "JAILBREAK!" which requires saving 96 out of 100 - the solution that saves 96 is not really any more difficult than saving 95.

Note that the levels use music tracks in Revenge of the Lemmings; "Deep Freeze" uses "1gbridge.mod" and "JAILBREAK!" uses "2aspace2.mod".

Crane · « **Reply #49 on:** August 20, 2016, 04:04:02 AM »

I made some possible patches to "Spiralling Snowstorm" (Armageddon 3) to patch a couple of backroutes I found - there's some icicles hanging from the top of the screen so you can no longer use some building trickery to get across the pit (you could get across the pit in 3 builders, with the 2nd builder hitting his head on the top of the screen), and the container in the bottom right is now smaller, which makes life more difficult for Climbers that aren't Floaters (a backroute has Climbers go that way).

Note that I'm assuming namida's solution is the intended solution, since it uses all of the tools and all of the level. I left a message for Clam with a link to this post to see if he's okay with it.

NOTE: The music for this level file is not set, but is meant to be the Christmas mix file: christmas.mod

mobius · « **Reply #50 on:** August 20, 2016, 06:27:49 PM »

Quote from: Wafflem on August 19, 2016, 12:54:41 AM

In IRC, möbius and I have agreed to add two of the levels I've suggested: The Great Migration '06 by Chmera as the very first level in ROTL (obviously the '06 must be removed), and Mind the Gap by TOG.

Pain and Armageddon are currently lacking in special graphics levels. Frenzy could count as well depending on what we do with the Land of Nightmares.

I have bundled an NXP of seven special graphics levels to see which can be put in those two to three ranks:
1. geoo's VGASPEC conversion of Insane Steve's Cheapo version of the Mon0lith
2. geoo's Supaplex Tricks...
3. geoo's Through the Thicket (actually, I think this VGASPEC's graphics come from the Outdoor Tribe)
4-7. Proxima's Repton levels.

NOTE: The Repton levels are Cheapo levels.

I messed around with The Mon0lith before the last update and ultimately decided against including it. I might take a moment and play this level again and judge it again. It's quite a demanding level. It is however, quite interesting and difficult. [this level's featured in the Lix pack where it's easier because of runners and the entire levels quite a bit larger]
If we include any more levels [let alone custom graphic ones] this would be my first choice and it would go perfectly in Armageddon.

@Crane. IMO Deep Freeze should go in either Devious or Frenzy. But then my judgements don't often match the consensus. I'll put it in Frenzy for now.
This level has a similar idea to "Split Complementaries" but more compact and straightforward but sort of more puzzling. I think.

Crane · « **Reply #51 on:** August 21, 2016, 12:04:04 AM »

Well, I suppose Deep Freeze is straightforward in that it's clear what you have to do, but unlike Split Complementaries, everyone has to be doing work somewhere (e.g. the 'safe' lemmings can't get to the exit by themselves), then there's the multitasking and finding ways to save enough lemmings, given you have to use Blockers. There is a similar idea though, with only one out of many trapdoors having a safe landing.

bulletride · « **Reply #52 on:** August 21, 2016, 01:02:59 AM »

If you are still taking suggestions I would like to add my level Fall Guy to the mix.

Crane · « **Reply #53 on:** August 21, 2016, 02:49:01 AM »

One slight problem with that is that there's a level called Fall Guy in Revenge of the Lemmings already by t3tesla... Frenzy 9.

mobius · « **Reply #54 on:** August 21, 2016, 04:20:02 PM »

Quote from: BulletRide on August 21, 2016, 01:02:59 AM

If you are still taking suggestions I would like to add my level Fall Guy to the mix.

I'd love to include this level, but eventually I'll need a replay for it because I've never managed to solve it (after a very long time). I did see a few other people's solutions but they all abused climb-through-wall glitches.

Quote from: Crane on August 21, 2016, 02:49:01 AM

One slight problem with that is that there's a level called Fall Guy in Revenge of the Lemmings already by t3tesla... Frenzy 9.

Actually this level was re titled because the original was an ONML title. So I'll just find another title for this level.

Also; about Split complimentary; the reason I mentioned that level was because I'm not sure it's in the right place of difficulty. Maybe Carnage is too high?

Crane · « **Reply #55 on:** August 22, 2016, 02:06:25 AM »

Personally I don't think Split Complementaries is that difficult. It looks scary at first glance, but once you save the first lemming and start building, it mostly just falls into place. Most players will know to use multiple lemmings as well to save them faster. I might drop it down a notch to Pain personally.

chaos_defrost · « **Reply #56 on:** August 22, 2016, 03:46:51 AM »

Quote from: Crane on August 22, 2016, 02:06:25 AM

Personally I don't think Split Complementaries is that difficult. It looks scary at first glance, but once you save the first lemming and start building, it mostly just falls into place. Most players will know to use multiple lemmings as well to save them faster. I might drop it down a notch to Pain personally.

I remember watching namida's playthrough and being surprised this level was this far in the pack unedited. Dropping it a tier is fine, reducing builders (50->20?) to where it's actually a mild challenge in the place it's in is also fine. Depends on the other levels you want to include/replace.

Crane · « **Reply #57 on:** August 22, 2016, 04:12:00 AM »

Just tried to complete it with 20 builders, and it's a LOT harder, as you have to make more sacrifices. I've attached my solution that uses only 20 builders and saves 78% - with some adjustments I could save 80%. That would make it more Carnage-like, but removes a lot of freedom for the player to solve it in their own way (although the save requirement could be a talisman rather than a prerequisite so some freedom is kept).

There is one minor change to Split Complementaries, and that's the hanging ball on the upper right of the level. It's where the secret level trigger is, as you have no reason to build to it in a normal solution, and it looks innocuous enough that most people would dismiss it as a piece of scenery.

Crane · « **Reply #58 on:** August 22, 2016, 10:57:00 AM »

Sorry, here's "JAILBREAK!" again - somehow a random barrel got inserted in the last copy. It didn't affect the solution, but certainly looked weird.

mobius · « **Reply #59 on:** August 24, 2016, 09:59:45 PM »

I like Having Split Complimentary as-is but with a 20 builder talisman. The more optional challenges the better. I'll move it to Pain or Frenzy Though. I'd like to keep levels in order based on their standard difficulty not the difficulty of their talisman. That's what the bronze, silver, gold is for.

Crane · « **Reply #60 on:** August 24, 2016, 10:44:04 PM »

In that case I'd consider Split Complementaries' talisman to be bronze-level, maybe silver given the level's difficulty. Hard to be sure with the higher ratings.

Split Complementaries - 20 Builders

namida · « **Reply #61 on:** September 07, 2016, 07:09:08 PM »

Quote from: Crane on August 24, 2016, 10:44:04 PM

In that case I'd consider Split Complementaries' talisman to be bronze-level, maybe silver given the level's difficulty. Hard to be sure with the higher ratings.

Split Complementaries - 20 Builders

There's no hard-and-fast rule, it's generally up to the content creator how they'll assign their talismans; but for me, I generally think in terms of "how hard is this relative to the level's usual solution", not "how hard is this in absolute terms". There are some exceptions of course - for example, most of my packs give away a free gold talisman for simply completing the final level (there are some that don't, though).

Crane · « **Reply #62 on:** September 08, 2016, 05:05:20 AM »

That certainly makes sense. And I have to be careful because this is möbius' pack, first and foremost, and I don't want my enthusiasm to encroach on his work and plans.

In this instance, I would still consider it bronze-level since it's easy enough to save the lemmings required, but with just the extra difficulty of being conservative with your builders and seeing where you can trade them for other skills, or allowing extra lemmings to be sacrificed. By the time the player reaches that level, it should be a relatively straightforward challenge.

mobius · « **Reply #63 on:** September 08, 2016, 09:23:01 PM »

Quote from: Crane on September 08, 2016, 05:05:20 AM

That certainly makes sense. And I have to be careful because this is möbius' pack, first and foremost, and I don't want my enthusiasm to encroach on his work and plans.

You don't have to worry about that. Honestly; I would *really* be happy if someone stepped up and said "I'll take over as project leader and finish it up." What's left to do is just a lot of tedium that I don't really feel like doing right now, plus my time is so limited. I'd much rather work on my own pack which is in sad shape right now. I guess I thought at first that there wasn't as much work to do as there really is.

Here are the major things that need to be done:
-fixing backroutes [not a lot are left but not all of namida's have been addressed]
-remaking/fixing some of Proxima's Cheapo levels
-fix and outline the talismans
-order the levels

Crane · « **Reply #64 on:** September 10, 2016, 03:17:12 AM »

I can't say I can take over and do everything either because, like you, I don't have that much free time, as I have a full-time job and am working on other projects, mostly involving programming of some kind.

I can, however, submit the occasional backroute-patched level, at least what I think is backroute-patched, make suggestions here and there and select music tracks like I did last time, for example, so I can help share the workload.

mobius · « **Reply #65 on:** November 06, 2016, 07:25:09 PM »

I've decided to work on this again so that I can finish it as soon as possible. I'm afraid I'll not be including some of the recent suggestions like trying for a custom graphic level in every rank. Putting them together is difficult and I want to just focus on getting the pack backroute fixed, and the existing levels fixed, and get the talismans ready. If at some later date; I or anyone else has more suggestions of levels to fix/offer I will update the pack again. [Probably will be updating later anyway because more backroutes you know

]

to be clear these levels *have* been added; Crane's Deepfreeze, a couple of Wafflem's suggetsions and Fall Guy by BulletRide (replacing Almost Easy).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

mobius · « **Reply #66 on:** November 07, 2016, 02:54:52 PM »

Considering making "From the Brink" an easy level (save 74) with the original solution being a achievement, (save 76). Any thoughts? I'm not sure it's a great idea; saving 74 is pretty trivial if you're the least bit good at lemmings I think and kind of spoils the main point of the level, partly because it seems like not that many people pay close attention to achievements from what I've seen on video anyway.

Simon · « **Reply #67 on:** November 07, 2016, 03:20:34 PM »

Hmm, hiding the core idea in achievements is bad, you've already explained why.

If you want fewer trick levels, cut the level entirely.
If you want more easy levels, find or make easy levels.

If you insist on re-using the terrain and skillset, at least give a new name to the easier level. If you easened From the Brink without renaming, everybody would have to specify whether they mean the easy version or Clam's version. Clam's version is well-known.

-- Simon

Crane · « **Reply #68 on:** November 08, 2016, 01:30:18 AM »

I personally would leave "From the Brink" as the final level with its unique and difficult solution. I don't know about others, but part of me thinks that if the core idea is hidden in an achievement, there is a risk that people will dismiss it as a bug and hence impossible to get, whereas if the level itself appears impossible to complete, it's less likely to be dismissed as a bug, especially if it's the last one because something like that would not be overlooked.

mobius · « **Reply #69 on:** November 08, 2016, 01:34:16 AM »

I decided not to do this. Not sure why I proposed the idea actually. And I need to stop proposing ideas and then all but dismissing them myself in the initial post...

Crane · « **Reply #70 on:** November 10, 2016, 05:34:48 AM »

Nothing wrong with discussions and throwing ideas into the cauldron. This is your development topic after all.

mobius · « **Reply #71 on:** December 29, 2016, 08:14:35 PM »

I'm sorry to announce this but I'm not going to finish this project. The only way this will be updated is if somebody else does it. I simply have absolutely no more interest in this or in basically the work of maintaining a levelpack this large.

If you want to play this levelpack simply download the older version:
http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2203.0

Crane · « **Reply #72 on:** December 30, 2016, 09:51:17 AM »

Aww, that is a shame. I will be willing to pick up the slack. Holiday Lemmings '16 has given me some practice in using the FlexiToolkit.