Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]  (Read 17136 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
[NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: December 20, 2015, 03:07:29 PM »
1.) Download Link:

NeoLemmix player: https://www.neolemmix.com/

PimoLems NeoLemmix (V 3.3  ~ 223 KB): PimoLems V 3.3
Contains the game itself.

PimoLems Music (~ 5.1 MB) : PimoLems Music
Contains the music tracks! Extract all the tracks into the "music" folder of your NeoLemmix player. If the player does not have a "music" folder yet, create one in the same folder where the player is located.

Outdated Old formats version (before NeoLemmix 12.0.1):
PimoLems NeoLemmix (V 2.3  ~ 5.3 MB): PimoLems V 2.3
Contains the game itself.

2.) Installation:

1. Get a NeoLemmix player from: https://www.neolemmix.com/  and extract it into a folder of your choice (if you already have an up-to-date player you can skip this step)
    Also make sure you got all the styles as well and extracted them into your player's "styles" folder.
2. Unzip "PimoLems.zip" into the main folder of your Neolemmix player.  ../levels/PimoLems should exist now.
3. Extract all the music files from "PimoLems_music.zip" into the "music" folder of your NeoLemmix player. If the player does not have a "music" folder yet, create one in the same folder where the player is located.
4. Run "NeoLemmix.exe" and press F2 in the main menu so you can access the pack through the level browser.
5. Inform yourself about the basics, new NeoLemmix features and hotkeys with the manual: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4081.0
6. Enjoy!


3.) Ratings:

Well as Pieuw described them point on the Lemmini version I will just repeat his words here ;)

1 – Calm

Beginning with the calm rating, you'll find kind levels in terms of difficulty, time and % of Lemmings to save. Don't get used to it though.
Difficulty ~ Fun / Tricky.


Calm 07 - Lemstones
Even if these levels are easy, you won't have to ''Just Dig!''

2 – Windy

The wind is rising, making your hair raising. A sign that puzzling levels are coming ! They are very gentle ones, though you may lose some hair if you don't apprehend them correctly.
Difficulty ~ Tricky to Taxing.



Windy 06 – Diggers Mania
Be warned that strange architectures may occur. Do not let them distress you.

3 - Stormy

There's a storm coming, and it's a serious one. Puzzles are getting tougher, bombers suddenly like to walk and even a few glitches slipped into some levels (see below for more information about glitches).
Difficulty ~ Taxing to Mayhem.



Stormy 15 – So Logical
Some of the Stormy levels may try to make you believe they are piece of cake. Don't trust them.


4 - Hurricane

Abandon all hope ye who enter here. And grab something solid if you don't want to fly away in the wind. We're dealing with harsh levels demanding serious thinking, precision, and they're quite tight on time (Icho edit: Well at least where the timer is nessecary ;)).
Difficulty ~ Mayhem and beyond.



Hurricane 10 – How To Prevent a Mass Suicide
Well, I'm sure you'll find a way to show them the way. Anyway.

5 - Pickaxe

We're not in the standard ratings anymore. This one is all about miners, miners, miners. Because yes, I love miners. This skill offers so many possibilities and craziness ! So, here are levels where you'll have to execute various tricks involving pickaxe manipulation.
Difficulty ~ Tricky to beyond Mayhem.



Pickaxe 18 – Lemmings on the Road to Ruin
Don't let this one ruin your day, cross your fingers and you'll be on the high road.

6 - One

Another non-standard rating that only contains one-minute-levels. Who likes to be rushed by the clock ? I don't, but I made 20 of these levels anyway.
Difficulty ~ Tricky to beyond Mayhem.



One 08 – Baptised With a Perfect Name
Well, I think it's pretty obvious that you have to HURRY UP here.

7 - Special

This special rating only contains 3 5 (Icho has now also put 2 of his one in here :)) levels I made with the Castle tileset (from the game Nicky Boum) that I created years ago. There may be more of them to come in the future.
Difficulty ~ Tricky / Taxing.



Special 03 – Marble Gallery
Will you be able to get past the marble ?

8 - Extra

Here's the additional rating, containing levels that did not make it into the ''real'' ones. Most of them had too many backroutes or were too lame to fit anywhere else. I included them in this pack anyway as bonus levels, because the more the better !
Difficulty ~ Fun to Mayhem.



Extra 10 – Backward Train
Don't even ask about the title.


4.) Some words about the general conversion:

I generally tried to stay very close to the original, but quite some changes were needed due to the NeoLemix physics. There are also some levels which need to have NL features like pick-ups to fix backroutes or to get around some Lemmini glitches.
I've also removed quite a lot of the timers which I thought were not needed and would just annoy the player (of course "time crunchers" and the One rating still have them).
Furthermore I tried to make all traps as visible as possible (without looking stupidly out of place) and esspecially the "Iron Industry" level was changed towards a little puzzle challenge rather than a guessing the path type of level.

5.) Special thanks:

Well of course to Pieuw for giving the ok and making the levels in the first place! :)

As well to:

namida                                    for creating the NeoLemmix engine
GigaLem                                  for making the mainmenu logo for me
Simon, DynaLem and möbius  for testing
Vurez                                      for one of the music tracks (Medival Arrengement)
                                               Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy6yLi_53JfvJxSwNtdalWA

6.) CONTACT INFO:

Via email you can reach me at: ScavengerW@gmx.de

Youtube (IchoTolot): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4Elfo3E1jTl-SHlOy97kwA
Youtube (Pieuw)     : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxvPCXx9v2Bx1iC_Jc8FVpQ


« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 08:52:12 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3008
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2015, 03:22:42 PM »
Congrats on polishing this port to release!

Conversion from Lemmini and testing in NeoLemmix have taken time. You've come up with ingenious fixes for little physics differences and backroutes, keeping Pieuw's spirit and visual style fully intact.

I'm looking forward to play more of this pack over at yours when we meet again after the holidays.

-- Simon

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11326
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2015, 03:28:20 PM »
Maybe it's time for me to whip out Open Broadcaster again, especially now that I've mostly finished FF8 Requiem (apart from Omega Weapon)...

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 08:27:27 AM »
1.1 update is out with the switch from exe to nxp.
Your save file will be carried over if it's in the same folder as the nxp+music!
Look at the installation guide to see how to update. :)

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2016, 12:06:38 PM »
Added a link in the description (2.) Installation) to Nepsters manual :)

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 08:38:05 AM »
V 1.2 is out!

- Update to new custom png format
- Implementing of the LP IV custom skillbar
- "Unlock all" enabled
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 11:56:30 AM by IchoTolot »

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 10:27:07 AM »
Here as well:

The mask of the skill panel and skills have been removed as I noticed right now that this does look a bit weird :P

So download-link has been updated!

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2016, 12:25:49 AM »
Hotfix uploaded!

Fixes broken (so "impossible") levels due to recent NeoLemmix player update:

4 08
5 04
7 05

Offline Pieuw

  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2016, 11:15:43 AM »
Great job IchoTolot! :thumbsup:

I'll have to play this version, I'm curious about the levels you added :)

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2016, 12:16:19 PM »
Great job IchoTolot! :thumbsup:

I'll have to play this version, I'm curious about the levels you added :)
Ty very much :)    I hope I'll match your expectations! If there are any more backroutes or other stuff you encounter just pm me the feedback and I'll see what can be patched.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2016, 07:56:45 PM »
PimoLems confirmed possible with the new player version!

Just a ton of broken replays.

Also all my single level are also intact (apart from the replays).

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 03:09:22 PM »
V 1.3 is out! Includes independency of solid edges + gimmick removal.

- 2 10 gimmicks removed
- 3 17 independency of the solid edge
- 5 19 independency of the solid edge

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 03:27:19 PM »
Quick reupload as a change was not included --- fixed now

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2016, 05:09:03 PM »
Version 1.4 is out!

Contains the new version of the "Castle" tileset as well as following changes:

- 1 13 Direct drop prevention removed
- 1 18 Traps are more visible now
- 2 01 a Water tile moved slightly lower + Direct drop prevention removed
- 3 05 backroute fixed
- 8 15 backroute fixed

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 07:36:36 PM »
I think I have another backroute for  8 15    will probably try again when I fix the next bunch :)   (this will take a few versions as it seems ;P)

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2016, 09:38:14 PM »
The next patch will probably come ~ next weekend as I have stuff to do like learning for an exam + some medical things right now. Maybe I'll even get to do another backroute patrol on NepsterLems as well then ;P

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2016, 01:58:09 PM »
Version 1.5 is out!

Following levels have changed:

- 3 20 backroute fixed
- 4 04 backroute fixed
- 5 06 backroute fixed
- 7 02 backroute fixed
- 8 15 backroute fixed
- 8 18 backroute fixed
- 8 19 traps have been made more visible

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: NeoLemmix release of PimoLems
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2016, 11:35:51 AM »
Version 1.65 is out!

Compatible with the new version now!

I don't bother testing it on older versions from right now on and don't guarantee 100% compability for this anymore!

Following levels fixed:

- 1 19 compability stuff terrain related
- 4 09 compability stuff physics related
- 5 20 compability stuff terrain related
- 7 02 steel added
- 8 18 backroute fixed
- 8 19 backroute fixed
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 11:42:09 AM by IchoTolot »

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2016, 11:42:45 AM »
1.7 is out!

Compatible with 1.48 now + new castle tileset included!

- skill icons updated
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 11:52:08 AM by IchoTolot »

Offline Wafflem

  • Posts: 943
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2016, 02:53:16 PM »
For some reason the ZIP has "PimoLems.EXE" instead of the NXP.
YouTube: www.tinyurl.com/YTWafflem
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Wafflem467

Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2016, 03:18:35 PM »
For some reason the ZIP has "PimoLems.EXE" instead of the NXP.

My bad.  Fixed the file. That's why the archive size was 1 MB larger :P

I am keeping a copy of the last version with the old exe format as well and I must have included the wrong file in the archive :-[

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2016, 01:39:27 PM »
Version 1.8 is out!

Again as in Reunion this is mainly to get rid of the Steelareas in favor of autosteel.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2016, 10:29:12 AM »
Version 1.9 is out!

Disables debug mode and replaces the archive with only the nxp for download, as I don't think an extra ReadMe is still nessesary.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2017, 05:41:04 PM »
Version 2.0 is out!

Updates the skill panels to be compatible with the newest NL version again.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2017, 11:26:27 AM »
Nxp was rebuilt with the newest FlexiToolkit version + solvability with the newest NeoLemmix version confirmed!

Offline joshescue18

  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2017, 04:56:31 PM »
I solved this level pack.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2017, 05:07:37 PM »
Thanks, will take a look at the replays after the holidays most likely and see if you found some more backroutes to fix. :)

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2018, 03:35:49 PM »
Version 2.1 is out!

Based on joshescue18's feedback I had quite a few backroutes to fix again. ;)

Following levels have been backroute fixed:

- 2 16
- 2 19

- 3 06
- 3 08
- 3 19

- 4 06
- 4 07
- 4 15

- 5 13
- 5 19

- 6 05
- 6 10
- 6 11

- 7 03

- 8 07
- 8 17

Offline joshescue18

  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2018, 07:30:51 PM »
Here's my another set of solutions.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2018, 09:18:46 PM »
Annnd V 2.2 right away! ;)

From 16 down to 3 backroutes. :)

Following levels have been backroute fixed:

- 2 19

- 5 13

- 7 03

Offline joshescue18

  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 03:20:23 AM »
Here's another set of solutions.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2018, 11:03:43 AM »
Version 2.3 is out!

Warning: In the last 2 versions the music tracks were a bit messed up in the fixed levels, now the correct tracks should be playing again! Sorry for that. :-[

Only 1 backroute remained! ;)

Following levels have been backroute fixed:

- 5 13

Offline joshescue18

  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2018, 04:32:21 PM »
How about this solution?

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2018, 05:27:42 PM »
How about this solution?

Finally it's acceptable! :thumbsup:

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2018, 07:46:13 PM »
V 2.4 is out! :)

This is the first version for the new formats version! Levels are nearly unchanged except some castle flamethrower rearrangements.

You'll need the external music pack now linked in the first post to get the music working!

V 2.3 will remain in the first post as a backup download.

A known issue is that the custom skillpanel is currently not working, but this will be fixed with a future NeoLemmix player update.

Offline joshescue18

  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2018, 09:34:42 PM »
Here are my new solutions.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2018, 09:47:18 PM »
Here are my new solutions.

All solutions are either intented or alternative solutions. :)

Offline joshescue18

  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2018, 10:05:06 PM »
Here is a full set of my solutions.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2018, 10:40:43 PM »
V 2.5 is out! :)

- 3 10 had a little backroute fix.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2018, 10:43:47 AM »
And a quick V 2.6. ;)

- 2 19 locked the RR, as it was possible with RR changes solving it without bombing at the intended position.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2018, 10:19:33 AM »
V 2.7 is out! :)

The following levels have changed:

- 3 17 decoration added to the steel wall

- 4 04 backroute fixed (wooden pillar removed)
- 4 05 decoration added (in form of L2 cavelem torches)
- 4 09 backroute fixed (OWW extended)
- 4 13 backroute fixed (shredder added)
- 4 16 slight visual error fixed

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2019, 08:26:19 AM »
V 2.8 is out! :)

I've added the standard music rotation in case a person hasn't got the music tracks.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2019, 01:03:52 PM »
V 2.9 is out! :)

Pack is made fit for 12.7.0! Changes:

The zip is now to be extracted in the main NL folder instead of inside the levels folder.

Visual fixes, because of the fire pit graphic change:

- 1 01
- 3 13
- 5 11
- 8 18

The following level has an unnessesary pick-up skill marker removed:

- 5 08


The levels were not cleansed yet as this still seems a bit buggy in terms of pack structure. ;P

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2019, 07:22:44 PM »
V 3.0 is out!

Levels cleansed.

Online ericderkovits

  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2020, 01:49:30 AM »
ok Pimolems is now finished. all the levels are now green from the replays.
I didn't see any new neolemmix skills in Pimolems as I did in Dovelems. although Pimolems did have a few pickup skills which I know Lemmini didn't have.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 02:20:49 AM by ericderkovits »

Online ericderkovits

  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2020, 03:34:30 AM »
I just noticed in the Neolemmix version of Pimolems, Icho added 2 special levels from his Reunion Pack(Castle Rush and Another Brick in the Wall, Nightmare 2 and Nightmare 16).
 I wonder why he did that since that isn't part of Pimolems.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2020, 02:19:13 PM »
I just noticed in the Neolemmix version of Pimolems, Icho added 2 special levels from his Reunion Pack(Castle Rush and Another Brick in the Wall, Nightmare 2 and Nightmare 16).
 I wonder why he did that since that isn't part of Pimolems.

I just found a tiny 3 level special rank was a bit weird. So I put 2 Reunion levels I made with the same special style in there to bump it up to 5.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2020, 10:14:44 AM »
V 3.1 is out!

Naming of the rank signs adjusted. For the update please delete the old version of the pack first.



I am also aware of Swerdis solution videos and there have been a few backroutes already in these. Will prepare another backroute fix update after all the pack is completely covered. ;)

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2020, 03:41:14 PM »
That's true though there are not as many as in DoveLems, especially in the higher spheres. I will make some comments when I am through the hurricane rank.  For consistency, I will finish the pack with the old version, though.

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2020, 05:36:26 PM »
That's true though there are not as many as in DoveLems, especially in the higher spheres. I will make some comments when I am through the hurricane rank.  For consistency, I will finish the pack with the old version, though.

There have been around 30 patches for the pack so far, so that's largely why, but mostly because Pieuw seemed to had carefully designed the levels along with a very tight skillset in the later ranks so that they're either impossible or not as easily backroutable.

I haven't watched any of your solutions, but I've been following your quest on beating Pimolems, and I know that you are currently quite far into the pack just from the video title. I got to say I'm quite impressed with the progress you have made. This pack's got nothing on you. Keep up the great work! :) Almost there at the finish line!


Offline uberwolfie

  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2020, 03:59:42 PM »
Hello everyone! :thumbsup:

I finished PimoLems a week or two ago, have just been writing up my complete thoughts since then, which again may be of no interest to anyone but me. Seeing that Swerdis is well on his way to finishing it up himself, and wishing to give Icho a whole set of replays to look at before releasing the next version, I was spurred on to finish that document so I could submit my replays here and the writings at the same time. I'll have to give the document a little proofread before sharing it with you, but in the meantime here are my replays.

I think you may find several of them interesting for backroute-related purposes, particularly you may want to examine:

Calm: 18
Windy: 2 4 14*  15  18
Stormy: 3* 4 7 8*(?) 14*(!) 18
Hurricane: 11 15* 16 17* 18
Pickaxe: 7* 15 16*(?) 17*(note the two replays - I think I found the intended solution in the later one, but it's currently not necessary to utilize the left hand area at all) 18*
One: 5* 7 9 11 15* 16* 18 20(is this what you intend with the walkers?)
Extra: 19 20*

The ones marked with * are ones I'm almost certain break the level in some way. There may be one or two others that I've missed, but probably nothing major.

Ok, now onto more modern packs I think, starting with United...:devil::8()::XD:

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2020, 04:51:16 PM »
Thanks for the replays.:thumbsup:

I will check them up together with Swerdis solution videos then when they are completed and prepare a patch after that. :)

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2020, 06:26:56 PM »
Hello everyone! :thumbsup:

I finished PimoLems a week or two ago, have just been writing up my complete thoughts since then, which again may be of no interest to anyone but me. Seeing that Swerdis is well on his way to finishing it up himself, and wishing to give Icho a whole set of replays to look at before releasing the next version, I was spurred on to finish that document so I could submit my replays here and the writings at the same time. I'll have to give the document a little proofread before sharing it with you, but in the meantime here are my replays.

Congrats on finishing Pimolems. Note that while Swerdis is still far from completing the entire pack, he is close to finishing all the main ranks of Pimolems, ie, almost done with the Hurricane rank. I believe he stated when he's done with that rank, he'll provide his thoughts/feedback.

Quote
Ok, now onto more modern packs I think, starting with United...:devil::8()::XD:

Great to hear that you're thinking of taking on United. While absolutely not required, seeing how you started Reunion some time ago, I still suggest finishing that pack before taking on United. I'm not just saying this because United is a sequel pack to Reunion, but rather I feel one's transition into United should go as smoothly as possible, and this can certainly help. Again, it's not necessary in any way to finish Reunion before playing United. Just a thought. Or, you could even do both concurrently. If you ever get horribly stuck on United, you could then play some Reunion or some other packs in the meantime. It is normal to get stuck, so don't worry if it happens. Happens to me all the time, even in packs that aren't anywhere near as difficult as United or Nepsterlems, for example. Either way, prepare for an extremely long and very difficult journey, considering it's a 200+ level pack (currently 238 levels) and the huge amount of tough nuts in the pack. Despite the very high difficulty, I still recommend United, as it's just a very well-done pack in so many ways. It's probably my most favorite level pack that I've finished solving currently, although I still like all the other packs I've finished playing very much as well.

Online ericderkovits

  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2020, 07:13:58 PM »
Can't wait for Icho to patch this pack, so hopefully some levels in my Superlemmini conversion pack can also match Neolemmix's. Of course only ones that don't involve pickup skills.

Offline uberwolfie

  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2020, 01:55:41 PM »
Hello folks :)

Here is my document, outlining my complete thoughts and experiences playing PimoLems. It is a companion to my previous similar effort on the subject of DoveLems, and the goal is to document what was an amazing experience of expanding my Lemmings horizons, as well as laying out the similarities and differences between the two packs that I noticed. I doubt I will do such a complete analysis of a level pack again.

I see that a number of you downloaded and potentially read at least some of my DoveLems document. I hope it is of interest, the observations are quite personal, and I am not as seasoned a designer or player as many of you forum regulars. I did want to bring up a few specific levels where I have questions for Icho about changes he's made (at least I assume it must have been him). These are all brought up in the document, but obviously I can't expect everyone to slog through that on the off chance they'll run across these points and then be compelled to respond...

Windy 11: "From Pillar to Post": I really question the added steel on the leftmost platforms, which prevent you from digging through from a higher level, as Pieuw's original solution on his YouTube uses this possibility, and I strongly think levels are better with more solutions, so long as they are roughly equivalent in spirit and difficulty, which I think these two (Pieuw's and mine/Icho's) are. Is there a backroute that this seals up that would otherwise completely break the level?

One 10: "Bombing All the Way Home": In a similar vein, I much prefer the idea of this level as one with several different approaches, like the one from the creator himself, which is ingenious, and now seemingly not possible. This level really, for me, seems to have lost some sense of richness with the removal of that one builder, essentially forcing the current solution. Would like to know if others agree with me. Sometimes removing all backroutes makes a level disappointingly one-dimensional in this way.

All other levels I really appreciate the changes and see that this makes them much stronger :lemcat:

Great to hear that you're thinking of taking on United. While absolutely not required, seeing how you started Reunion some time ago, I still suggest finishing that pack before taking on United. I'm not just saying this because United is a sequel pack to Reunion, but rather I feel one's transition into United should go as smoothly as possible, and this can certainly help. Again, it's not necessary in any way to finish Reunion before playing United. Just a thought. Or, you could even do both concurrently. If you ever get horribly stuck on United, you could then play some Reunion or some other packs in the meantime. It is normal to get stuck, so don't worry if it happens. Happens to me all the time, even in packs that aren't anywhere near as difficult as United or Nepsterlems, for example. Either way, prepare for an extremely long and very difficult journey, considering it's a 200+ level pack (currently 238 levels) and the huge amount of tough nuts in the pack. Despite the very high difficulty, I still recommend United, as it's just a very well-done pack in so many ways. It's probably my most favorite level pack that I've finished solving currently, although I still like all the other packs I've finished playing very much as well.

Yeah I just got a little bored of Reunion, not because it's intrinsically boring, just I'm getting a little tired playing all these packs from the Lemmini era when there are bigger and newer things to explore! But what you suggest is a good idea, I'm sure I will use many other packs as breaks from United, I'm almost finished with Pacifism, although obviously this still leaves me only at the foothills of the mountain. Having a great time so far, there's a sort of wonderful exhilaration to some of the designs, it's a whole beautiful mysterious world to explore. I also tried some early levels from a bunch of other packs, like SEBLems, Doomsday Lemmings, and MazuLems. Some fun things! I should try NepsterLems too, given your comments elsewhere on its quality and difficulty. Also I think I will be enjoying your let's plays, I started watching Doomsday Lemmings, and I'll see if I can play it along with you (not in real time though of couse).

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2020, 03:34:27 PM »
Very nice thoughts outlined in your PDF file as usual. Regarding your final thoughts, I still stand by my notion that Pimolems isn't necessarily better quality than Dovelems, because again to me not only is it an unfair claim to make, it doesn't make sense to compare packs from different authors that way. It does make sense to me to compare packs from the same author, eg, Reunion and United. I am in agreement that the puzzles in Pimolems tend to be better and hence there's greater satisfaction in figuring them out and beating them as compared to beating the levels in Dovelems. Another thing that we seem to differ on is how you seem to think the quality of a pack suffers from being backroute ridden, like it is with Dovelems, while Pimolems doesn't have as much. This is where I don't necessarily agree. Just because a level is backroutable doesn't automatically make it a bad level. A backroutable level can still be really good. It just simply means that the level hasn't 100% enforced the intended solution yet. As I have also pointed out, Dovelems is still a really good pack despite how backroutes abound. Both Dovelems and Pimolems are excellent packs in their own ways, which you seem to be in agreement. In the same way, despite all the backroutes I found in United when I played through the pack, in my eyes United is still a very well-done, very high quality pack in my eyes, so therefore the quality has never suffered or too much in my eyes to make me think otherwise. Then again, it's very difficult to find a Lemmings level that I don't really like. In all the packs I have played, there have generally only been around 2-3 levels in each rank I wasn't a fan of. Not to mention that I generally only have very good things to say about the levels whenever I give the pack author feedback. It takes a lot before I start to rage at a level. In general, I seem to have a much higher level of patience compared to most when it comes to solving levels.

Yeah I just got a little bored of Reunion, not because it's intrinsically boring, just I'm getting a little tired playing all these packs from the Lemmini era when there are bigger and newer things to explore! But what you suggest is a good idea, I'm sure I will use many other packs as breaks from United, I'm almost finished with Pacifism, although obviously this still leaves me only at the foothills of the mountain. Having a great time so far, there's a sort of wonderful exhilaration to some of the designs, it's a whole beautiful mysterious world to explore. I also tried some early levels from a bunch of other packs, like SEBLems, Doomsday Lemmings, and MazuLems. Some fun things! I should try NepsterLems too, given your comments elsewhere on its quality and difficulty. Also I think I will be enjoying your let's plays, I started watching Doomsday Lemmings, and I'll see if I can play it along with you (not in real time though of couse).

Haha, I understand! Dovelems, Pimolems, and Reunion were all originally packs made for Lemmini. Particularly since NL is pretty much the primary go to engine to play custom packs these days. Playing other packs in the meantime when you're horribly stuck on a particular pack does wonders. Sometimes, after spending a lot of time away, you all of a sudden are able to breeze through a level that previously was a roadblock and then you wonder why it was one in the first place.

The Pacifism rank should be doable for anyone with some experience with both the Lemmings games and some custom packs, although as you have probably seen it's still no pushover for a first rank. For me, there was no challenge until I got into the mid to late 30s levels in the rank. Even then, I only remember two of them being difficult, Pacifism 36 and the rank finisher, Pacifism 41. 

Regarding Nepsterlems, I still need to go back and finish solving the pack. I'm currently stuck on the very first level of the final rank. It'll definitely be interesting if I can solve even just one level in the Black Hole rank. No chance of LPing that one from me, since I already have too much of it solved long before I started doing LPs. Glad to hear you been watching my LP. I'm already done with solving all of Doomsday Lemmings, meaning my LP of it is already done, so if you mean solving the levels before you watch my solutions to them, then yea, that's what I do as well if I come to a level that I myself haven't solved on my own. I simply stop watching at that point until I do. Seb Lems is on my to-play list at some point, whlie Mazulems was my very first custom Lemmings pack I played on Dos from more than 15 years ago. 

Offline uberwolfie

  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2020, 02:58:23 AM »
Very nice thoughts outlined in your PDF file as usual. Regarding your final thoughts, I still stand by my notion that Pimolems isn't necessarily better quality than Dovelems, because again to me not only is it an unfair claim to make, it doesn't make sense to compare packs from different authors that way. It does make sense to me to compare packs from the same author, eg, Reunion and United. I am in agreement that the puzzles in Pimolems tend to be better and hence there's greater satisfaction in figuring them out and beating them as compared to beating the levels in Dovelems. Another thing that we seem to differ on is how you seem to think the quality of a pack suffers from being backroute ridden, like it is with Dovelems, while Pimolems doesn't have as much. This is where I don't necessarily agree. Just because a level is backroutable doesn't automatically make it a bad level. A backroutable level can still be really good. It just simply means that the level hasn't 100% enforced the intended solution yet. As I have also pointed out, Dovelems is still a really good pack despite how backroutes abound. Both Dovelems and Pimolems are excellent packs in their own ways, which you seem to be in agreement. In the same way, despite all the backroutes I found in United when I played through the pack, in my eyes United is still a very well-done, very high quality pack in my eyes, so therefore the quality has never suffered or too much in my eyes to make me think otherwise. Then again, it's very difficult to find a Lemmings level that I don't really like. In all the packs I have played, there have generally only been around 2-3 levels in each rank I wasn't a fan of. Not to mention that I generally only have very good things to say about the levels whenever I give the pack author feedback. It takes a lot before I start to rage at a level. In general, I seem to have a much higher level of patience compared to most when it comes to solving levels.

Absolutely, no real argument on anything here. I should be clearer though, it's not the quality that suffers from backroutes, it's the experience, like how I feel the one I had from DoveLems was affected by the ease of solving some key puzzles. You're absolutely right that this is a matter of testing and refining rather than initial design - the key problem is thus the expectations of the player going in rather than the nature of the levels themselves. DoveLems certainly is still going through this testing phase it seems, thanks mostly to Icho. So the fact that I was disappointed means that my expectations should have been different going in, not that I genuinely think one pack is superior to the other on every single metric (clearly this is not true, and I think I explore in detail the strengths and weaknesses of each).

I think it's interesting to speculate about level design in terms of whether this process of testing and refinement is initially smooth, that is the initial concept is solid enough that it stays true even with some small tightening, or whether there was a flaw in the initial concept to some degree and the whole thing needs rethinking to bring it to the same place. I do make the very weak claim that DoveLems may be more prone to the latter as it exists now, and with the author not really present, those levels will probably stay that way unless Icho decides to be more hands on (which he probably won't, out of respect). This claim is impossible to prove, but I'm still very interested in the precise mechanics of the creative process generally, and Lemmings levels of the quality of both these packs have given me a lot of food for thought regarding this. It's fascinating to me how designing Lemmings puzzles is a huge process of testing against other minds, not just a solitary endeavour.

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2020, 04:07:04 AM »
Absolutely, no real argument on anything here. I should be clearer though, it's not the quality that suffers from backroutes, it's the experience, like how I feel the one I had from DoveLems was affected by the ease of solving some key puzzles. You're absolutely right that this is a matter of testing and refining rather than initial design - the key problem is thus the expectations of the player going in rather than the nature of the levels themselves. DoveLems certainly is still going through this testing phase it seems, thanks mostly to Icho. So the fact that I was disappointed means that my expectations should have been different going in, not that I genuinely think one pack is superior to the other on every single metric (clearly this is not true, and I think I explore in detail the strengths and weaknesses of each).

Fair point! Thanks for clearing this up. Indeed, I realized after posting that you were already in agreement with almost everything I have said and that something didn't sound right to me in my mind when it sounded as if you were referring to the decline in quality due to backroutes. It does seem to be the case that most tend to associate the quality of levels decreasing when backroutes are present, but as I have previously mentioned, I don't necessarily agree with this, since levels with backroutes can still be really good levels themselves. All it means is that they have the potential to be even better levels than they are currently if the backroutes are patched/blocked.

Indeed, it's clear that our expectations and experiences with the packs are quite different. My experiences have been quite positive with both packs, and my expectations with each one have kind of been exceeded. In contrast, I think Dovelems is still really good despite how it's still very backroute ridden. My perception of the pack stayed quite high throughout, and none of the levels disappointed me in any way. Hence why I said it's extremely difficult to find a level that I'm not a fan of. On the other hand, the only time I felt disappointed with Pimolems was just due to my playing experience in Lemmini of the pack back in the days. There were some otherwise really good Pimolems levels that I ended up not liking as much due to just being overly frustrated with how I had to restart so many times, as the absence of convenience tools make some of the levels on Lemmini much harder to execute. The puzzles themselves are really good, just my perception of some otherwise really good levels due to certain maneuvers/tricks that are required in some of them slowly declined the more I had to restart. Nevertheless, I still think Pimolems is an excellent pack just like Dovelems, and I definitely enjoyed the former more for its challenging puzzles and the satisfaction that resulted from figuring out the solution and finally getting the execution right. Definitely the playing experience is very different depending on what engine you're playing on. I'm sure once I start playing the pack on NL, I will enjoy it way more than I did on Lemmini, although I'm certainly not a hater of the engine, since I did stay with Lemmini/SL for at least 4-5 years before I dove into NL last year due to how they're closer to the original playing experience with the Dos engine I enjoyed and grew up with.

Still, it's always great to hear other people's thoughts on these matters, as these can spark very interesting discussions. Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts, as I always love reading them ;)

Online ericderkovits

  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2020, 04:59:46 AM »
Also remember Dovelems and Pimolems didn't start in NL, but Lemmini. So it was much harder to backroute block levels as there are no pickup skills to help with that. Even my Superlemmini
lemmings reunion, there are some levels that can still be backrouted because of no pickup skills. So when Dodochacalo and Pieuw were designing levels it was very difficult to prevent backroutes. I think if Dodochacalo and even Pieuw were designing the pack to begin with in NL, their packs would have been less backroute-ridden. So one really shouldn't put any fault on either designer, since
the engine they were dealing with was Lemmini.

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2020, 05:25:17 AM »
Also remember Dovelems and Pimolems didn't start in NL, but Lemmini. So it was much harder to backroute block levels as there are no pickup skills to help with that.

Right, we both already acknowledged this. They were also made at a time long before stable New Formats NL was even a thing and in existence. It still goes without saying that they were, and still are, both excellent packs for Lemmini for their time back when Lemmini was quite popular before they were converted to other engines.

Quote
So one really shouldn't put any fault on either designer, since
the engine they were dealing with was Lemmini.

For the record, I don't think anyone on here thinks poorly of either of these packs, although of course everyone thinks differently. Like I said many times before, both packs are very well-liked and held in high regard by most. This also goes back to what I said about Dodochacalo and Pieuw being two very different level designers, as well as how some authors don't care about blocking backroutes as much as some others. They're both really good in their own ways, and I certainly regard both as extraordinary level designers. They both made an excellent Lemmini level pack IMO.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 06:09:03 AM by kaywhyn »

Offline uberwolfie

  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2020, 09:14:39 AM »
Good points all, and naturally the Lemmini engine means that the packs were a very different experience before conversion - I imagine the backroutes were also somewhat harder to execute sometimes, as were most things; it all needed a different approach from the player too.

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2020, 09:31:31 AM »
Good points all, and naturally the Lemmini engine means that the packs were a very different experience before conversion - I imagine the backroutes were also somewhat harder to execute sometimes, as were most things; it all needed a different approach from the player too.

Definitely! Lemmini is a very different engine from NL and the resulting playing experience being different. Levels that relied on Lemmini exclusive glitches don't work properly in NL since it eliminated all glitches and so they needed to be reworked in order to work properly. Not only that, there are also a lot of physics/mechanics differences between them. As for execution, it all depends on the level, since some levels are far harder in Lemmini than in NL due to the lack of convenience tools that are available in the latter, but there are also some levels that are somewhat easier in the former than in the latter. These are levels that usually relied on abuse of mechanics/glitches if you are aware of the differences which can potentially make it easier or harder in Lemmini, but again it depends on the level. Lemmini was also the first modern engine available for quite a while before the others emerged and hence was quite popular for playing/making levels for a time back then.

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2020, 11:58:32 AM »
Hi,

in the past days I made my way through the peak of PimoLems. Knowing that I still have a long way to go to complete this pack, I want to give some feedback now, as I completed the hurricane rank.

There was a discussion here how PimoLems compares with DoveLems - maybe because both are older packs and both were adapted to NeoLemmix by Icho. For me, at this point, it's hard to say which one is better. To be honest, they are quite akin compared to other packs. Both often use remarkably small skillsets even in large levels, both contain almost no 20-of-everything-levels. And just like DoveLems, PimoLems ist not extraordinarily difficult to beat. It gave me some hard nuts to crack, though - maybe it's slightly harder than DoveLems, but that's nuances only. I read that PimoLems was far less backroute-prone than DoveLems. I cannot confirm that. I found several in the lower ranks, and the number decreased drastically in the middle of the pack. But to my surprise, in the hurricane rank the amount of backroutes rose again. Having said this, I'm with kaywhyn in this point. For me, lots of backroutes don't devaluate a pack. As a pack-creator, I would try to eliminate them, as a player I like to find them.

What also attracted my intention: It's clear that Pieuw like miners - otherwise he wouldn't create a whole rank dedicated to this skill. But he seems to have relatively little use for blockers. There are hardly any blocker-puzzles in this pack. In the hurricane rank, only 5 out of the 20 levels use this skill at all, the first 9 levels are totally blocker-free. Pieuw seems to prefer free-roaming Lemmings - forcing the player to find other ways how to stop these creatures.

A big advantage in favor of PimoLems, at least for me, is the presence of custom music. With the exception of the tune with the dogs in the background (which is terrible) I like all of the tracks. My favourite is the one which occurs first in Calm 3 and then later in Windy 16 or Hurricane 13 for example. The tunes in Windy 1 and Hurricane 18 are also great - unfortunately the only appear once. Can anyone tell me where these are from?

To go further into detail:

Calm: This is actually what can be expected from a good first rank. Tutorials levels without being too childish (except for the very first level). Calm 2 (Training Day) serves its purpose very well for example. My personal favourite at this early stage is probably Calm 7 (Lemstones) - not too easy combined with an attractive visual design. Things accelerate a bit after Calm 14. Calm 20 is even quite hard for this rank - then you know that the distribution of gifts is over.

Windy: To be honest, this rank is not where the pack really shines. It starts strong with a good, nice-designed first level, then you get your standard "let one Lemmings work from the other side and mine them out" level, followed by six relatively weak efforts. Windy 3 is much too easy. The tricks used in Windy 5,6 and 8 are very obvious for any experienced player. Windy 7 is too builder-extensive in a not-good way. But after that, it gets better. Windy 9 (The Hiking Tour) which I heavily backrouted, is a great level. Windy 11, though too hard for its position, Windy 12, 15 and especially 16 are very good too. The final level of Windy (Nick of Time!) almost played itself.

Stormy: To say it straight: This is the best rank of the regular pack. Most of my level-favourites are congregated here - and it's certainly not by accident that the stormy-levels seem to be the least backroute-prone. Pieuw did a great job here! Stormy 1 to 3 is already good, but the levels from 4 to 7 are really absolute gems. The next great sequence is from Stormy 10 to 12. The 13th level doesn't quite match up, but Stormy 14 and 15 are hot contenders even for the best levels in the entire pack. In "So logical", I'm sure many players are on the completely wrong track in the beginning - that's high art of level design. A late highlight of this rank, at least in my opinion, is Stormy 20.

Hurricane: As it should be, the levels in Hurricane are really harder than in Stormy - but not necessarily better (though still great). I admit that I had an easy time with some levels: Hurricane 2,4,12,13,14. The direct approach in "Barbarous Bars" proved successful though I immediately knew that this is a backroute. The trick used in Droll Drill and Cuba Libra I already knew from a Sublems-Level. I also was familiar with the major trick used in Hurricane 10. But this one was more demanding to figure out, because the trick had to be used twice and not "completely" - if you watch the specific video you know what I mean :-) As I already mentioned I found lots of backroutes in this rank. The heaviest, apart from Level 13, are Hurricane 9 (Blue Monday) and Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) - though I must say I like especially this backroute a lot :)

The by far biggest problems I had with Hurricane 5 and Hurricane 19. In Candelabrum, I was quite sure from the beginning that I had to let the basher and digger cross. Mainly to make the basher work one pixel lower to save the Lemmings down right. But how to save to digger and the Lemmings falling into the pit then, this really caused me problems since you can't bomb at the ground....well, I finally found the solution. In "Balance your Strategy" I did what I normally never do. I looked into the internet for some inspiration. But this was not very successful, since Pieuw himself and Ichotolot in their videos had three miners at their disposal. Fortunately, I was able to solve this level with two miners only. Not a very elegant solution though, but the only one I can imagine.

So now, I will see what the additional ranks will bring. I'm especially excited for "One". Levels with time-limits are normally not something, I am particularly good at.

My solutions are here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 11:37:08 AM by Swerdis »

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2020, 05:03:49 PM »
Congrats on finishing up through the Hurricane rank, Swerdis! :thumbsup: Indeed, there's still 65 levels remaining, but I know you can do it. This pack's got nothing on you ;) Also, thanks for the feedback on some of the levels in the first 4 ranks themselves. I don't really remember any of the levels themselves due to how much time has passed since I solved the entire pack, but I think due to your thoughts I'm inspired to pick up this pack again and play through it sooner than I thought I would. So, thanks to you, I will be revisiting this pack in the near future ;)

There was a discussion here how PimoLems compares with DoveLems - maybe because both are older packs and both were adapted to NeoLemmix by Icho. For me, at this point, it's hard to say which one is better. To be honest, they are quite akin compared to other packs. Both often use remarkably small skillsets even in large levels, both contain almost no 20-of-everything-levels. And just like DoveLems, PimoLems ist not extraordinarily difficult to beat. It gave me some hard nuts to crack, though - maybe it's slightly harder than DoveLems, but that's nuances only. I read that PimoLems was far less backroute-prone than DoveLems. I cannot confirm that. I found several in the lower ranks, and the number decreased drastically in the middle of the pack. But to my surprise, in the hurricane rank the amount of backroutes rose again. Having said this, I'm with kaywhyn in this point. For me, lots of backroutes don't devaluate a pack. As a pack-creator, I would try to eliminate them, as a player I like to find them.

This pack's difficulty definitely doesn't come anywhere near what you see in packs like United, Nepsterlems, and probably even Seb Lems. Once again, I have yet to play Seb Lems, but I will soon, just as soon as I get my planned LPs done ;) There's definitely quite some tough nuts in Pimolems, though. It was even worse for me due to how I first played and solved the entire pack on Lemmini due to the lack of convenience tools. It'll probably be a much more pleasant playing experience on NL when I get around to playing the pack on that engine in the future.

Quote
What also attracted my intention: It's clear that Pieuw like miners - otherwise he wouldn't create a whole rank dedicated to this skill. But he seems to have relatively little use for blockers. There are hardly any blocker-puzzles in this pack. In the hurricane rank, only 5 out of the 20 levels use this skill at all, the first 9 levels are totally blocker-free. Pieuw seems to prefer free-roaming Lemmings - forcing the player to find other ways how to stop these creatures.

That's what I like about the levels in some packs in that you often have to get creative in containing or delaying the crowd in some way, rather than use the standard 1 or two blockers to hold back the crowd, which the original Lemmings used way too much. It wasn't until the Taxing rank where you had to start using other ways to do so, such as digger/miner pits. These were often roadblocks for players when they were kids, just for the way the levels all of a sudden started demanding these things from the players without warning, especially since the levels before Taxing did an absolutely poor job of teaching players that there are other ways to contain the crowd besides using blockers.

Quote
Windy:
The final level of Windy (Nick of Time!) almost played itself.

When I first played through this pack on Lemmini, Windy 20 was one of the few levels that I ended up skipping. I don't remember when I finally solved it, but I think it might had been way after I finally came back to the pack a few years after I gave up on the pack in frustration in being stuck on Hurricane 3, along with Stormy 30. I do agree that the level is really good, and the solution to it is just so nice when it all comes together. As my post shows, it's definitely way more frustrating to play the pack on Lemmini, although Lemmini/SL are still my preferred engine of choice to play on due to how I stayed with them for at least 4-5 years before I finally made the switch to trying out NL last year. I have definitely grown to love NL a lot in the time I played through United.

Quote
Stormy: In "So logical", I'm sure many players are on the completely wrong track in the beginning - that's high art of level design. A late highlight of this rank, at least in my opinion, is Stormy 20.

That was definitely the case for me in So logical. In a way, the level title isn't being ironic at all. The solution is logical, you just have to think outside the box. It's still a great level, IMO. For Stormy 20, this was one of several glitch levels on Lemmini, and so if you look at this level on Lemmini, you can see that the level had to be reworked in order to work properly on NL. Due to how glitches are eliminated in NL, the reworked/remade version you see in NL is the closest you can get to the original Lemmini glitch solution. Most prominent is how there's a preplaced lemming, which Lemmini doesn't have.

Quote

Hurricane: As it should be, the levels in Hurricane are really harder than in Stormy - but not necessarily better (though still great). I admit that I had an easy time with some levels: Hurricane 2,4,12,13,14. The direct approach in "Barbarous Bars" proved successful though I immediately knew that this is a backroute. The trick used in Droll Drill and Cuba Libra I already knew from a Sublems-Level. I also was familiar with the major trick used in Hurricane 10. But this one was more demanding to figure out, because the trick had to be used twice and not "completely" - if you watch the specific video you know what I mean :-) As I already mentioned I found lots of backroutes in this rank. The heaviest, apart from Level 13, are Hurricane 9 (Blue Monday) and Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) - though I must say I like especially this backroute a lot :)

The by far biggest problems I had with Hurricane 5 and Hurricane 19. In Candelabrum, I was quite sure from the beginning that I had to let the basher and digger cross. Mainly to make the basher work one pixel lower to save the Lemmings down right. But how to save to digger and the Lemmings falling into the pit then, this really caused me problems since you can't bomb at the ground....well, I finally found the solution. In "Balance your Strategy" I did what I normally never do. I looked into the internet for some inspiration. But this was not very successful, since Pieuw himself and Ichotolot in their videos had three miners at their disposal. Fortunately, I was able to solve this level with two miners only. Not a very elegant solution though, but the only one I can imagine.

As is generally true in any level pack, there tends to be way more backroutes in the later ranks than the more open-ended levels in the earlier ranks. Hurricane 10 took me a while to solve, but I think it's a really good level with a really great solution with the trick needed. It's awesome seeing the solution in action. It is a hard level, though, especially since it's very difficult to spot it and most of the time players don't even think of using builders that way when solving.

I completely agree with Hurricane 5 being a headscratcher of a level. That level also gave me some problems. The solution is difficult to plan in one's mind. As you might guess, executing the solution is far worse on Lemmini.

For the record, Hurricane 3 was what made me rage quit the pack. Keep in mind that I first played the pack on Lemmini. I didn't come back to Pimolems for a few years. When I finally did revisit the pack, I was able to get past the level with not as many problems. If it wasn't already done before then, I also was able to finally solve both Windy 20 and Stormy 20.

Quote
So now, I will see what the additional ranks will bring. I'm especially excited for "One". Levels with time-limits are normally not something, I am particularly good at.

I really love the One rank. It's amazing how Pieuw has an entire rank of 1 minute levels, most of which I consider really good. I'm one of the few that doesn't mind time limits in the game. I consider it a staple of the game, even if many of them in the original game are too huge to be any problem. I'm also a huge fan of numbers, especially since I'm a math teacher. You'll be fine, though. Luckily, the levels themselves are very short due to the 1 minute timers, meaning they're over really quick. It doesn't mean that the levels of the rank are quick solves, though. Some of them are quite hard, especially the later ones in the rank. In particular, I remember the brick level Straightforward in the rank, where my initial impression upon seeing the level was, "Really, the level's possible in just 1 minute?" You would think that it isn't due to the obstacle in the way: A very long wall that needs to be gotten through quickly. Can definitely bring up memories of the Just a Minute levels though, where it's pretty similar in terms of what needs to be done.

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2020, 05:45:42 PM »
Thanks for your reply. An additional note to the blockers: When I said that Pieuw didnt' do a lot with blockers in PimoLems, I didn't think of using them to hold the crowd back in this very traditional manner. I'm sure all of us here are way beyond that. But there are lots of other things that can be done with blockers. The first two packs of NeoLemmix I ever played were Lemmings Plus I and II. And in these two packs, Namida did al lot of crazy stuff with them. And with bombers as well which are also a bit neglected in PimoLems. I think of levels like "Droppin' Bombs", "Top Deck" or "Above the forests". That's not a criticism of PimoLems. I just find it fascinating that every pack has its own characteristics.

Hurricane 10: Yeah, that one looks great in action in the end. I'm glad I played Insane Steve's World before - he used this trick in his pack quite often. So I was familiar with it - and used it again in Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) to open a very nice backroute :-)

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2020, 07:56:25 PM »
Thanks for your reply. An additional note to the blockers: When I said that Pieuw didnt' do a lot with blockers in PimoLems, I didn't think of using them to hold the crowd back in this very traditional manner. I'm sure all of us here are way beyond that. But there are lots of other things that can be done with blockers. The first two packs of NeoLemmix I ever played were Lemmings Plus I and II. And in these two packs, Namida did al lot of crazy stuff with them. And with bombers as well which are also a bit neglected in PimoLems. I think of levels like "Droppin' Bombs", "Top Deck" or "Above the forests". That's not a criticism of PimoLems. I just find it fascinating that every pack has its own characteristics.

Thanks for the clarification. Indeed, it's amazing seeing other uses of the skills beyond their most common function. I have also played through Lemmings Plus 1, but I first played through this pack on Dos. In that engine, there are two levels that I didn't solve. I know the solution to both levels, they're just extremely annoying and very fiddly to pull off due to several things that Dos lacks: No directional select, cannot assign skills while paused, and no framestepping. I will likely LP this pack for NL after I finish my LP for Sublems. It seems like a really good compliment to it, as they seem quite similar in difficulty: Starts off very easy, gets hard near the end. For Lemmings Plus 2, I have not played the pack at all.

Quote
Hurricane 10: Yeah, that one looks great in action in the end. I'm glad I played Insane Steve's World before - he used this trick in his pack quite often. So I was familiar with it - and used it again in Hurricane 17 (Prisoners of the Pun) to open a very nice backroute :-)

That's awesome! :thumbsup: Also, you reminded me that I need to finish up Insane Steve's pack. I played the first few levels but then stopped after that and haven't gone back to play the pack since. I think it was simply due to other packs that I wanted get through first, most notably United. Your post brings up a good point in that playing other packs can certainly help with learning some tricks that you possibly can use in other packs later on. This is one such case for you, so nice job ;) Generally, it seems that once you learn/know of a trick, it's easy to apply it whenever the opportunity/situation calls for it. Some are still difficult to spot that it needs to be used, but it depends on the level, especially if the solution is very well-hidden.

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2020, 11:14:40 AM »
I am delighted to discover this level pack. Thanks Pieuw for this great job and thanks IchoTolot for converting and updating ! Well done ! It's awesome ! :thumbsup:

I quite quickly managed to get to Stormy 4 level, and only From Pillar to Past (Windy 11) really gave me a problem ! But hey, by looking carefully, I managed to find a solution ! Difficulty medium ? Really ? I think it's starting to get hard, right ? ???

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2020, 11:46:05 AM »
Quote
Difficulty medium ? Really ? I think it's starting to get hard, right ?

Oh, my sweet summer child. :devil:  Let's say there is still much room concering the increase in difficulty in lemmings levels.

On another note: Defining difficulty is very difficult in itself. Even more if the variety of levels is so large as in lemmings. It's more of a general rough estimate here.

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2020, 11:55:14 AM »
Thanks IchoTolot, I understand ! But ... I'm less trained/gifted than you ! Otherwise, I took a look at the Lemmings United pack, but ... what can I say ? I am too young to die !!! It's true, you're right, I am a sweet summer child. And... I like it !
:crylaugh: :thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2020, 04:00:03 PM »
To add to Icho's explanation, difficulty is also extremely subjective. Levels that some found hard others might had found easy or vice versa. In the same way, some may like a particular level but others might dislike it. In general, if most found a particular level hard, then it's generally considered a hard level, regardless of whether some found it easy.

In my experiences, Pimolems starts picking up in difficulty a little less than halfway through the Windy rank and only goes up from there. The difficulty really kicks up when you leave the Windy rank and go into the Stormy rank, and then the difficulty stays high up through the end of the Hurricane rank. Then when you get to the special ranks of Pickaxe and One, they both start off easy but get quite difficult later on.

Otherwise, I took a look at the Lemmings United pack, but ... what can I say ? I am too young to die !!! It's true, you're right, I am a sweet summer child. And... I like it !
:crylaugh: :thumbsup:

"I am too young to die" is a rank from Reunion, not United :P They're both Ichos' packs, though. 

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2020, 07:04:52 PM »
I completely agree ! It is quite subjective. I'm in Stormy rank, and it's getting difficult (for me). :o

Quote
"I am too young to die" is a rank from Reunion, not United: P They're both Ichos' packs, though.

Yes, sorry, I was talking about Lemmings Reunion : I downloaded both IchoTolot packs at the same time. Difficult to locate myself in this "lemmings jungle", I feel like Little Thumb. And the lemmings ate my bread crumbs and stole my stones ! ;P

Offline Pieuw

  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2020, 10:37:44 AM »
It's crazy to get so much detailed feedback after all the years. I've been reading this thread bits by bits over the last few days, plus uberwolfie's very thorough document, it's been such a joy! :cute:
I'm very aware of the pack's flaws. If I had to remake it today some levels wouldn't make the cut, others would be heavily edited. I'm not sure I would keep the bonus rank either. It seemed essential to me at the time since it showcases "milestones" on the journey I took with the editor. Some are the first levels I ever made, others were experimentations. As a player point of view, I can understand this rank feeling totally useless.

Without IchoTolot's endeavor I think PimoLems (and DoveLems probably) would have slowly sunk into the void. Lemmini, as great as it was back in the days, just doesn't stand comparison with NeoLemmix.

To address a particular point I've read here and there: yes at the time Dodo and I were messaging a lot and exchanging levels. We kind of inspired each other, which explains the similarities some people noticed between our two packs. We sometimes had similar ideas at the same time, like the main trick used in Sharin' the fuel and Lemmings on the Road to Ruin. Then we would send them to each others and be like "Whaaaat?" :crylaugh: Ah, the nostalgia.
If I remember correctly, which I may not, DoveLems was released before PimoLems right?

Comparing the packs (any packs) feels a bit awkward I guess, each author having their own style and preferences. In the end it's only about the player's taste and the feeling may vary greatly from player to player. Diversity is what makes this world amazing after all :thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2020, 11:01:58 AM »
Hi Pieuw,

It's so awesome to see the author of Pimolems return after so long and glad to finally meet and get to interact with you. Welcome back! :thumbsup: Your Pimolems pack is the second custom pack I have played, my first one was Dovelems. Coincidentally, I think a few years after my college years, I was remembering the game of Lemmings and I did some searching on Youtube. I probably typed "custom lemmings level packs" in the search on the site, and a video by rtw LPing Dovelems happened to pop up. In particular, his intro video describing the Lemmini features was what drew me to the engine, and so I set out to download Lemmini and set it up, and hence begin my custom pack playing on a modern engine. The directional select rtw talked about in the video was what got me into getting Lemmini, as I think it's a very welcome feature when playing levels. Before this, I had played several Dos custom packs. Also, I grew up with the Dos version of Lemmings. I have a very extensive history with the game that I detailed here as my very first post here from earlier this year in March. Would you like to read it? WARNING: It's extremely long. I'm a very super detail-oriented person. You can definitely see it in the extensive feedback I've given to pack authors in the various level pack topics I've posted in.

I do have a confession to make in regards to my playing experience with your Pimolems pack, and that is Hurricane 3 - The Warehouse was what caused me to rage quit and stop playing the pack for a few years before I finally came back and got myself unstuck and proceed to solve the entire pack. I think I might had also had both Windy 20 - In the Nick of Time and Stormy 20 - Let Them Eat Cake unsolved at the time as well. If you recall, the latter uses a Lemmini glitch, although it's also present in Dos. I might had solved the rank finishers before skipping around the pack, and then encountering Hurricane 3, but I'm kind of more certain that I also had them unsolved before being stumped again with Hurricane 3. The former is a really great level with a really great solution. It's just so much fun seeing the solution in action and it working out, and it was certainly very satisfying to figure out. Can you really blame me for rage quitting due to how solutions are far more annoying to execute in Lemmini due to the lack of convenience tools like NL has? In any case, I eventually figured out all the solutions on my own, even if it took me 3 years.

Don't get me wrong, I think your Pimolems pack is an excellent pack. I definitely enjoyed your pack for the challenges the levels provided. Just the fact that I first played your pack on Lemmini back those many years ago (I think I played it in 2014?) was somewhat frustrating at the time, especially since one missed assignment and it's a restart. Pretty much the entire Hurricane rank is that. Normally, it takes a lot to get me to rage at Lemmings levels, and it's extremely difficult to find a level that I don't like, but I can only take so much after a certain number of resets on the same level. I'm sure once I start playing the converted pack on Neolemmix it will definitely be a more enjoyable playing experience. 

If I remember correctly, which I may not, DoveLems was released before PimoLems right?


I believe so?

Offline Pieuw

  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2020, 12:12:37 PM »
Hey kaywhyn! Thank you for the warm welcome :thumbsup:

Yes I've read your posts as well, and I understand your frustration! I remember testing levels on Lemmini being quite tedious more often than not. So I can imagine playing them and having to restart over and over, not being sure you're even on the right track, being discouraging.
NeoLemmix makes the experience of playing so much fun even when you mess up! Controlling time is very satisfying. I often get mixed up with the hotkeys though :crylaugh:

If you come back to PimoLems I hope it'll be a pleasant journey for you :)

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2020, 12:25:48 PM »
I should add that I'm still a lover of Lemmini/Superlemmini even though I'm definitely very used to NL by now. Just the fact that playing on Lemmini is quite close to how I grew up with the Dos version, which is what I liked with the mechanics present: timed bombers, no assist tools like skill shadows and framestepping, to name a few. As a matter of fact, the second and last time I played through the entire Pimolems pack on Lemmini again was back near the end of 2018 when we were getting our house renovated. I haven't played any of the pack since, but thanks to Swerdis' detailed feedback on your pack I will be getting back to your pack much sooner than I thought I would. Before, I had decided that because I have already beaten the pack on Lemmini, playing it on NL was low priority for me, even though I have plans to eventually do so. I will likely end up LPing your pack, and so I'll let you know when I have my videos up on Youtube for that and provide you the link to watch.

I especially love the One rank, since I'm one of the few who doesn't mind time limits in the game, and I consider it a staple of the game. What blows my mind is how you managed to have an entire rank of 20 levels, all with only 1 minute on the clock. Not only that, I really like almost all the levels in the rank :) The Pickaxe rank is pretty good as well, just far more frustrating to pull off in Lemmini, especially with miner cancelling.

Offline uberwolfie

  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2020, 03:12:11 PM »
To address a particular point I've read here and there: yes at the time Dodo and I were messaging a lot and exchanging levels. We kind of inspired each other, which explains the similarities some people noticed between our two packs. We sometimes had similar ideas at the same time, like the main trick used in Sharin' the fuel and Lemmings on the Road to Ruin. Then we would send them to each others and be like "Whaaaat?" :crylaugh: Ah, the nostalgia.
If I remember correctly, which I may not, DoveLems was released before PimoLems right?

Comparing the packs (any packs) feels a bit awkward I guess, each author having their own style and preferences. In the end it's only about the player's taste and the feeling may vary greatly from player to player. Diversity is what makes this world amazing after all :thumbsup:

Hi Pieuw! :laugh:
This is really interesting to know, and does answer those questions. Tbh I regret a bit pushing the comparison angle so much - my reaction to DoveLems says I think more about my mental state playing it than any objective feature of the levels...and I probably had as many criticisms of PimoLems ultimately :-[

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2020, 07:34:46 PM »
To continue the discussion from Davids level pack here:

I didn't create a complete pack by myself, but what I realize is that every creator deals differently with this subject. Some are eager to eliminate every trace of a backroute while others can live with them quite well and consider them legitimate alternative solutions. Namida for example, who has multiple packs, provides updates for his recent pack only (at least I understood him like that) So when you play an older pack of him and find a backroute, it will most likely been left in.

As a player, I don't mind backrouting at all. For me, it's often more fun than finding the intended solution. I ALWAYS compare my solutions to those of others (via youtube, if possible of course). This means there is no appeal for me to play a pack again when it's patched.

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2020, 07:45:59 PM »
Yes, it's nice to find solutions that the author had not considered (especially for the player) ! But, when you are a beginner (not professional, anyway!) in the level creation, like me, pointing out backroutes allows me to progress, to learn new tricks... For now, I am keen to correct these "errors" (which are not really errors, of course) ! :thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2020, 07:58:38 PM »
I didn't create a complete pack by myself, but what I realize is that every creator deals differently with this subject. Some are eager to eliminate every trace of a backroute while others can live with them quite well and consider them legitimate alternative solutions. Namida for example, who has multiple packs, provides updates for his recent pack only (at least I understood him like that) So when you play an older pack of him and find a backroute, it will most likely been left in.

From what I understand, after a while namida considers his packs set in stone and so they're only updated just to remain compatible and playable in newer NL versions.

Quote
As a player, I don't mind backrouting at all. For me, it's often more fun than finding the intended solution. I ALWAYS compare my solutions to those of others (via youtube, if possible of course). This means there is no appeal for me to play a pack again when it's patched.

I think this is where you and I have common ground, since for me I'm content with solving the level in any way possible, whether I try to backroute or not. Level solved is level solved, right? And yes, I also think it's fun to compare my solution to other people's. I only watch after I solve the level myself. Only the levels where I felt my solution was hackish have me curious, so I watch those. Most of the time, watching other solutions has me going, "Wow, I can't believe I missed this much easier way. Mine is really complicated." I try to keep my solutions as simple as possible, but I seem to have the very bad habit of overcomplicating my solutions! :crylaugh: I will likely not go back and play patched up levels either, since once a pack is completely solved for me, I'm pretty much done with it. In the same way I don't care for talismans at all.

Offline Pieuw

  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2020, 08:17:12 PM »
Thank you David for what you said in the other discussion. I'm glad you're enjoying the pack! :thumbsup:
You have already solved a lot of levels, I hope Hurricane won't be too hard on you. :)
Let Them Eat Cake was a glitch level in Lemmini, I guess it's been changed a lot for NeoLemmix!
From Pillar To Post seems to be a roadblock for a few people, it may be placed too early in the game.
Temple Ruins is not a hard level but if you have some skills left you probably backrouted it.
Broad Pit with two builders only ? Whoaaaaat? :XD:

About backroutes, as a player I always enjoy finding one. But when it obviously completely breaks the level and I'm missing an otherwise clever solution, I feel a bit disappointed.
When it comes to my own levels it hurts to watch savage backroutes, but it's also fun in a way. If the players are enjoying themselves, that's what counts after all!

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2020, 08:19:28 PM »
Quote
I think this is where you and I have common ground, since for me I'm content with solving the level in any way possible, whether I try to backroute or not. Level solved is level solved, right? And yes, I also think it's fun to compare my solution to other people's. I only watch after I solve the level myself. Only the levels where I felt my solution was hackish have me curious, so I watch those. Most of the time, watching other solutions has me going, "Wow, I can't believe I missed this much easier way. Mine is really complicated." I try to keep my solutions as simple as possible, but I seem to have the very bad habit of overcomplicating my solutions! :crylaugh: I will likely not go back and play patched up levels either, since once a pack is completely solved for me, I'm pretty much done with it.

Yeah, no dissens here :) I see it the same. As for the talismans, it depends on my mood and patience. I'm basically willing to get them - but when it takes too long (and I was able to solve the level before) I go to the next level. At my yt-channel, I have special playlists for the talisman-solutions, but they always remain incomplete. :(

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2020, 08:29:25 PM »
Oh yes, speaking of which, I forgot to say that you're doing an awesome job, Swerdis. As usual, I'm getting the Youtube notifications of when you have a video of Pimolems up. Looks like you're doing well in the One rank so far. I haven't seen any of them, since I would like to eventually try my hand at the NL version at some point, but I know based on the level number and video title that you're making great progress in the rank. That reminds me, I'm not sure if you've already played it, but if I'm not mistaken you should be coming up to the level Straightforward. That's the one, upon first glance, had me thinking, "Really, this is possible in just 1 minute?" I would like to know if you had a similar reaction once you reach it and have played and solved it.

@David Yes, just like Pieuw said you're doing quite well too! :thumbsup: Good luck in the Hurricane rank, the final main rank of the pack. It's a bit surprising that you're stuck on Hurricane 1 though. It might be due to the very high RR, but it's really not that difficult. At the same time, it's not trivial. Pretty much almost every level in the rank isn't easy from what I remember.

Wow, all of you guys who are currently playing through Pimolems are inspiring me to play this pack again soon, but for NL! :thumbsup: Most likely once I get all my planned LPs done. And Pieuw, I would like to LP this pack once I get to it, so I'll give both you and Icho a link once my videos go up, although I believe Icho already gets notifications from me when my Youtube videos go up?

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2020, 08:44:41 PM »
kaywhyn : hey, it's funny ! In the rank One, I'm stuck at the Straightforward level, while the previous levels didn't give me much problem... I have an idea on the solution (I see only one possibility so as not to take too much time), but I can not manage to achieve it ... But I don't give up, I always end up getting there !!!

Do you find that the Hurricane 1 level isn't that difficult ? I spent time there, but to no avail. Same, I will not give up... :smug: ;)

I should also record the replays ! It's interesting to show them to the creator/author of the pack ! :thumbsup:

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2020, 08:47:55 PM »
That's really funny. I'm stuck in the same level at the moment.  This level looks almost exactly the same as "The Brick" of MazuLems (that also has a time limit). Which I solved already, so I looked into my old video to find an approach. But unfortunately, the solutions seems to be an entirely different one. But I'm working on it.

For me, the replays are also actually the best way to "collect" all my solved levels into one entity. The green checkmarks within the game don't work for me since there are always new versions of the game.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 08:53:41 PM by Swerdis »

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2020, 09:12:10 PM »
Quote
For me, the replays are also actually the best way to "collect" all my solved levels into one entity. The green checkmarks within the game don't work for me since there are always new versions of the game.

;P I like the idea !

Quote
This level looks almost exactly the same as "The Brick" of MazuLems (that also has a time limit). Which I solved already, so I looked into my old video to find an approach. But unfortunately, the solutions seems to be an entirely different one. But I'm working on it.

I don't know this level yet ... Maybe soon ... 8-)

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2020, 09:19:41 PM »
kaywhyn : hey, it's funny ! In the rank One, I'm stuck at the Straightforward level, while the previous levels didn't give me much problem... I have an idea on the solution (I see only one possibility so as not to take too much time), but I can not manage to achieve it ... But I don't give up, I always end up getting there !!!

That's the spirit, David! I like perseverance and determination.

Quote
Do you find that the Hurricane 1 level isn't that difficult ? I spent time there, but to no avail. Same, I will not give up... :smug: ;)

It is difficult, but it's not as difficult as it looks. You'll see that once you're successful in solving Hurricane 1 that there are much worse than that later in the rank.

That's really funny. I'm stuck in the same level at the moment.  This level looks almost exactly the same as "The Brick" of MazuLems (that also has a time limit). Which I solved already, so I looked into my old video to find an approach. But unfortunately, the solutions seems to be an entirely different one. But I'm working on it.

Haha dang, makes it even more hilarious I brought up the Straightforward level, since both you and David are there. Don't give up! You guys can do it. There are harder levels than this later on in the One rank. As the title suggests, the level really is straightforward. As for my hint:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
For me, the replays are also actually the best way to "collect" all my solved levels into one entity. The green checkmarks within the game don't work for me since there are always new versions of the game.


Whenever there's an update, levels that have changed will be indicated by an orange checkmark if you already solved the level before. What it really means is that there's a possibility that your replay might have broken. Here, I would run a mass replay check, and if the text file says "pass" for the level, then there's nothing else you need to do. Otherwise, if it fails, it means you need to resolve the new level.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 09:36:03 PM by kaywhyn »

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2020, 09:50:24 PM »
Quote
There are harder levels than this later on in the One rank. As the title suggests, the level really is straightforward.

That's it ! I just succeeded. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Thank you ! It wasn't really difficult, finally ! So, I had found the right way, but I was missing only one thing :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
.
:P

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2020, 12:03:52 AM »
Did it, finally :-) By the way, if Pieuw reads here: Can you tell me where you have this song from? It's by far the best track in this pack - I love it :)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 12:24:25 AM by Swerdis »

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2020, 12:44:28 AM »
Great job to the both of you! :thumbsup: As you both have probably seen, it's not a hard level. Rather, it's a hard level only due to the very strict time limit. More often than not, the clock is your worst enemy on this level. @Swerdis, I don't know what you were doing before your successful attempt, but I'm guessing it was simply due to you running out of time. Of course, without the very strict time limit Straightforward would be way too easy.

In any case, keep up the great work, both of you! :thumbsup: Doing quite well here, and I'm certainly impressed :)

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2020, 12:47:56 AM »
No, it wasn't just the time limit. I guess I'm just not used to trap a crowd between two blockers anymore :) This happens so rarely...

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2020, 12:55:34 AM »
Oh, got it! Yea, that's the only way to ensure that you'll save the required amount. Otherwise, they'll be too scattered out and you won't be able to meet the quota. The standard trap the crowd with 1/2 blockers does occasionally come up, but it definitely seems to be a rarity in custom packs. Also, as you have correctly mentioned, there are creative tricks that you have seen with blockers beyond just the standard and common function of turning lemmings around.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4199
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2020, 04:08:34 AM »
For anyone who wants it: I've made an all-in-one zip of PimoLems and its music. The music will automatically download into a subfolder of the music folder, and all levels have been edited to correctly refer to the music inside the subfolder.

Offline Pieuw

  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2020, 09:33:08 AM »
Well done for solving Straightforward! It was heavily inspired by The Brick from MazuLems indeed. I think I had a different solution from the intended one and wanted to make it into a level. MazuLems was a big source of inspiration, as the very first custom pack I played. It opened my eyes to a bright new world of possibilities :laugh:

Quote
By the way, if Pieuw reads here: Can you tell me where you have this song from? It's by far the best track in this pack - I love it :)
All the tracks come from a website called OGG Archives or something like this. I don't think it exists anymore. :XD: They were all copyright-free tunes made by people and I don't think they come from any known media, the exception being the Star Wars one.

Thanks for the help Proxima! :thumbsup:

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2020, 09:53:53 AM »
Seems like I've got a lot to check and fix when I start working on the patch after Swerdis videos are up. :)

Just now a bunch of SYCLW challenge replays came in as well.

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2020, 10:32:58 AM »
Thanks for the explanation, Pieuw. I had thought that it might be from a different computer game. But good to know.

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2020, 02:33:30 PM »
Kaywhyn : Thank you ! :thumbsup:
But about the level Straightforward, I reread your explanations in the "spoiler", and I see that you said to use the 2 climbers and the 3 bashers to succeed ! I was not successful with this method (I didn't know how to do it !). I did it more simply, with only 1 climber and 2 bashers. So, it's a backroute ? ??? (my replay is attached)

Quote
For anyone who wants it: I've made an all-in-one zip of PimoLems and its music. The music will automatically download into a subfolder of the music folder, and all levels have been edited to correctly refer to the music inside the subfolder.

Thank you very much Proxima. I will see that !
But... in fact... I don't know how to put the custom music when I play. :-[ ??? I will try first, and if I can't find solutions, I will come back and ask. :P Bye !
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 06:01:36 PM by David »

Online ericderkovits

  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2020, 05:37:59 PM »
hey, David. I see you have a single replay for a level. Since this is only 1 small file, no need to put it into a zip. You can just attach it as is one_07.nxrp,  Really only need to zip when there are more
than 6. So even if you have 6 replays, you can just attach them 1 at a time. Only need to compress when there are more than 6. Although maybe zip with three or more as it will make it quicker for the downloader to put them into the replay folder. So if you have 1 or 2, probably just attach the 2 replays one at a time.

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2020, 05:59:18 PM »
For the customed music to work properly, I noticed that you have to put the "music from the pack" files in the "music" folder directly, and not in a subfolder. So, ok ! ;) (However, I imagine that there must be some method to leave the music files in a subfolder ???)

ericderkovits : of course ! :-[ Thank you ! Zip files are used to compress files. It's therefore unnecessary to do this if the files are small. I took note ! :thumbsup:

Here it is : I unzipped the file in my previous post ! :thumbsup:

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4199
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2020, 06:03:52 PM »
For the customed music to work properly, I noticed that you have to put the "music from the pack" files in the "music" folder directly, and not in a subfolder. So, ok ! ;) (However, I imagine that there must be some method to leave the music files in a subfolder ???)

The level files contain pointers to where they expect the music to be. So if the level file has the line "MUSIC PimoLems_01" then it will look in the main music folder, but if it says "MUSIC PimoLems\PimoLems_01" then it will look inside a subfolder called "PimoLems".

That's why the zip file I posted not only exports the music to a subfolder, but also has all the level files fixed to point to that subfolder.

Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2020, 06:12:31 PM »
@David Yea, your solution to One 7 should be fine. Really the third basher is to help speed getting through the wall even more, but since you managed to pull it off with just two, that's fine. I might had initially solved it with just two bashers as well, but I honestly don't remember, since the first time I played through the pack was a really long time ago. Regardless of what solution is used, time always comes down to the wire.

Offline David

  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2020, 06:19:52 PM »
Proxima : I imagined it worked that way ! ;) Thank you for these explanations !

I downloaded your file, and everything works fine: I find it more convenient that the customed musics are all in a sub-folder. That's great ! Good work ! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Quote
@David Yea, your solution to One 7 should be fine. Really the third basher is to help speed getting through the wall even more, but since you managed to pull it off with just two, that's fine. I might had initially solved it with just two bashers as well, but I honestly don't remember, since the first time I played through the pack was a really long time ago. Regardless of what solution is used, time always comes down to the wire.

Yes thanks ! I actually didn't know how to use the third basher. Each time, I made him go back (and so, in a minute, I didn't have time to save him, the rascal !). The difficulty : the time. Yes ! Now, I only have two levels left in rank One, 16 and 18, both difficult ! ??? ;)

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2020, 05:04:38 PM »
Yeah, I finished "One"today. And what can I say - there are some great levels in this rank. I especially enjoyed One 16 ("For Crystal Sake"). This level is absolutely AWESOME and probably a hard nut to crack for someone who is not familiar with the initial trick. I'm also quite sure that it is backroute-safe which cannot bei said for most of the levels here. Other levels I really enjoyed were One 12 ("I See Led People", also a great title), One 18 ("Lines & Curves") and One 20 ("There's Rashness in the Method").

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka


Offline kaywhyn

  • Posts: 897
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2020, 05:11:03 PM »
Congrats! :thumbsup: One 20 was also originally a glitch level in Lemmini. I think I like the NL solution better, even if it had to be reworked and doesn't use classic skills only in order to work properly. It's the closest one can get to the Lemmini solution anyway, since the glitch that the level originally relied on doesn't work in NL.

Onto the Special and Bonus ranks. 25 levels to go. Almost done, Swerdis! :thumbsup:

Offline uberwolfie

  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2020, 12:21:41 AM »
Yes, well done! You're basically finished with the meat of the pack now, I'm sure you'll make quick work of the rest. Maybe one or two might give you pause...
I've been really enjoying watching you break some of the levels, you seem to be really good at that :crylaugh:

I'm also quite sure that it is backroute-safe which cannot bei said for most of the levels here.

Try this :P

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2020, 03:45:30 PM »
Okay, you convinced me :-) This was a little hasty. It's still my favourite level of this rank, though.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4199
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2020, 04:27:15 PM »
Finished the Stormy rank. Replays attached.

Replays Icho might particularly want to look at are Stormy 3 and 18. Mostly it's namida who's finding the really unexpected solutions, so his solutions attached here and in the next two posts are also (even more) worth taking a look.

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2020, 05:27:37 PM »
V 3.2 is out!

With a ton of backroute fixes thanks to Challenge replays and Swerdis:

- 1 14 (extended the OWWs)

- 2 01 (Parts of the glass sides are now steel)
- 2 09 (Extended a trap, exits are now limited to 1 lemming)
- 2 11 (A bomber is now a pick-up skill)
- 2 12 (Added a OWW + ice blowers)
- 2 14 (some minor terrain changes)

- 3 03 (added steel)
- 3 04 (4 builders are now pick-ups)
- 3 08 (added steel, extended traps)
- 3 17 (added a 3 min timer + steel)
- 3 18 (added steel)

- 4 01 (added steel)
- 4 02 (added fire)
- 4 03 (added steel, removed a OWW)
- 4 04 (a digger is now a pick-up skill)
- 4 09 (added a trap)
- 4 11 (Moved the entire level to the edge and reduced level size)
- 4 13 (narrowed the gaps, 2 builders are now pick-ups)
- 4 15 (added steel, added OWW)
- 4 17 (added more traps)
- 4 18 (added steel and extrended traps)
- 4 19 (added trap)

- 5 02 (added steel)
- 5 12 (removed some chain terrain)
- 5 16 (added some terrain)
- 5 17 (added a OWW)
- 5 18 (added steel, added a trap)
- 5 20 (terrain changes, there are now 2 exits with save requirement-1 capacity)

- 6 05 (added steel)
- 6 10 (a builder is now a pick-up skill)
- 6 11 (added a OWW)
- 6 13 (some terrain changes)
- 6 14 (some terrain changes)
- 6 16 (added steel)
- 6 17 (a basher and a builder are now a pick-up skill)
- 6 18 (some terrain changes)
- 6 19 (added steel)

- 7 02 (2 builders are now pick-up skills)

- 8 10 (removed the blockers+bombers)
- 8 14 (added fire)
- 8 15 (the blockers are now pick-up skills)
- 8 16 (added steel)

Offline Shmolem

  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2020, 05:15:08 AM »
Here's a backroute that needs a bit of fixing on Stormy 5

Online ericderkovits

  • Posts: 627
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2020, 06:09:33 AM »
how clever shmolem, yes this is a backroute that needs fixing. Definitely not intended. doesn't even get either bomber pickup.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 06:33:01 AM by ericderkovits »

Online IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 2914
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2020, 08:53:38 PM »
V 3.3 is out!

Backroute fix thanks to the replays of Shmolem:

- 3 05 (-10 climbers)