The first of the Mixed Rounds is up for voting!

Here we will bring down the 6 remaining levels down to 4, so you are able to vote for your personal top 4.

Needed to upload a quick hotfix as I actually forgot 2 critical ceiling cases!

Following levels fixed:

5 19
5 26

Version 3.1 is out!

All solid ceiling dependencies that are critical or can possibly be annoying have been patched out!

Levels slightly altered for this:

1 16, 1 17, 1 24, 1 26
2 05, 2 17, 2 18, 2 20, 2 22, 2 25, 2 28, 2 30
3 04, 3 13, 3 18, 3 22, 3 24, 3 27, 3 30
4 04, 4 05, 4 07, 4 08, 4 11, 4 14, 4 15, 4 17, 4 20, 4 21, 4 22, 4 24, 4 28
5 01, 5 07, 5 08, 5 10, 5 11, 5 12, 5 13, 5 15, 5 16, 5 20, 5 22, 5 23, 5 25, 5 27, 5 30

Mouseover appreance is a very good idea Dullstar!

A simple mouseover can then tell entrance and exit as well as turning and non-turning apart.

Quote from: Simon on November 17, 2017, 09:04:01 AM
History: NL had decoration, a.k.a. no-effect gadget. Deco was drawn on top of terrain every time. Some decoration even looked like terrain, e.g., trees and lampposts in L2 shadow. Very enraging, and Nepster eventually commented these tiles with "do NOT use" in their text-format conversions.

Fast-forward a year: IchoTolot clarified the tiles. Some of the confusing decoration is now animated, some others are replaced by proper terrain. Movable background has always been drawn behind the terrain, where most decoration should belong, too. This made decoration a special kind of moving background, moving at speed 0.

Moving background isn't a good name anymore, most tiles will be set still. The name is for clarity during conversion. "do NOT use" should vanish once the trees animate clearly.

-- Simon

The trees, lamps and staffs already should animate clearly in the newest exp versions.
I just now read about the "do NOT use" tag and honestly it kind of bothers me. I find this tag way more confusing for players and designers than any form of decorative objects could ever be. Why should the designer may not use decoration? It can be slightly confusing for some people when not used correctly, but recommend not using them entirely is just a ridiculous overreaction. I suggest a quick removal of the "do NOT use" tag as it's more of a personal rant than help for the user.

EDIT: Even before my clarifying tileset patches that Simon described: A decorative object that's placed in a confusing manner can be clarified with one press of the true physics key or at first interaction with it. A "do NOT use" tag just leaves questions that only can be clarifiyed by asking the person who put in the tag  -- a way more annoying task. And of course most users won't see any good reason not to use them or just ask why.

Rule 3 Round 1 is up to determine the last 2 levels for the mixed rounds!

Seems that I was mistaken, there must have been some default white arrows that I used in the new formats version for sports. The conversion table links to a default one + I checked it in a level. So you still got white arrows as it seems.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on November 13, 2017, 09:08:39 PM
I noticed the L2 sports tileset was still missing one way-down arrows, so I decided to fix that . I'm using these arrows anyway in one of my tilesets, so I just threw them in the sports file as well. Of course, I added them at the very end of the object list, in order not to mess up existing levels.

Keep in mind these can also work as one way-up arrows if you invert them. This will only allow fencers to pass.

Thanks I guess, even if I don't see much sense in that addition as you can simply use the arrows from other tilesets.
Most L2 arrows I used are simply copies from other standard tilesets. In the case of Sports the pillar arrows are very similar and nearly an exact copy, that's why these arrows will be the replacement in the new formats version as they also have the exact same size --> total backwards compability.
In the new formats all L2 One-Way-Arrows will be linked to the default ones they copied, so that this doubling down isn't needed anymore.
The only really special arrows in these sets are in egyptian and shadow.
Not every single tileset needs every variation nessesarily, as for that tileset mixing was added.

Quote from: Nepster on November 13, 2017, 09:18:16 PM
1) You can also rotate one-way-walls. So one-way-down arrows can be achieved even with the old sports.dat file.

Also this.

Alright, Rule 2 Round 1 is up! Only 1 vote and 1 round this time though.

Corner case question on the currently implemented version of deadly ceilings (Yes even these don't avoid them ):

What about a Lem walking ~ 3-4 pixels under the ceiling on flat terrain. What will he do when he hits a vertical wall that reaches the ceiling? Will he try to step up and die or simply turn?

I waited for my solutions to be uploaded until they were all acceptable. That means no backroutes and alternative solutions at most.

We came to a very good compromise in IRC today that I personally think will work for both sides:

Distinguishing teleporters from receivers in general

We will change the sprites of every teleporter/receiver pair to include a writing like the L2_Space ones with either "IN/OUT" or "I/O" depending on the sprites size. This will be added to the guidelines of creating a new tileset with teleporters.

Distinguishing turning teleporters/receivers

We will merge the turning with a sprite flip, so that it is visible from the start that the direction is flipped. The new "IN" and "OUT" writings will make this possible ("NI" and "TUO" for turning ones). This way we can keep the behavior intact while it also being visible from the start.


I think this is a fair compromise that hopefully acts like a sign of new found unity and eases some of the frustraition with all the recent critical culling changes.

To slowly get away from all these discussion topics:

I've finished now the currently avialable Allied Act II missions of Mental Omega. Link to the first of the last mission videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfehxONDcc0

Currently recording up the rest of Act II.

Also NepsterLems has reached the Neutron Star rank last week. Link to the first Neutron Star solution video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxZ1kuptuzM

I can offer you help with the conversion, as I really want this pack to come out. I saw a very high quality when I played through the demo and loved the work so far.

When the time comes in the future, when the changes that need to happen are final:
I need intended solution replays, the pack and the files for the single levels in the stable version. I have no experience with custom sprites, but I can at least help with the levels after I'm done with my own stuff of course. If you still need it at that point.

Until then I think you can still talk to Nepster about the converted tilesets and find a solution. I can't see a reason why a tileset can't have different exits/hatches. I can see a problem with the number of tiles in one tileset exploding though and there I think a middleway could be found. A few tiles will certainly be redundant but maybe not in the scale Nepster set on them.
I am also interested in these tilesets being successfully converted as I am thinking about making a few levels with them for United, too. (and I would like to have access to all different dreathnought hatches as well )

I don't want to write these anymore, I hate this and I feel as I slowly become the bad guy for a lot of people instead of a helpful person that tests, creates and plays content. I want it to stop, but if I don't reply, my concerns and voice is not being heard either and it will all be worse. These topics need to stop popping up, but they just keep on coming.

A ton of players and designers are frustrated and confused. More like never before. That's one of the reasons I created the checklist topic to visualise the upcoming changes and ease the confusion. I really want the new formats version to be successful, but I see that more and more wrong decisions are being made. I have long accepted the radiation, slowfreeze and ceiling changes, but this trend needs to stop, as recently the peoples patience with the culls has come to an end.


Addressing your consequences:

1) No player in the world will guess all the behaviors correctly, regardless of how you simplify them and therefore NL's tools are here to support him. Also people's guesses differ significally, therefore the right, expected differs depending on the person. 

2)

Quote"The helping features like clear-physics or frame-stepping should never be necessary."

Then we would go back to the stone age only solving 1st rank levels. We have these features to be able to provide better levels where the execution isn't the problem anymore.
That's why I even came over from Lemmini!
I needed frame-stepping to support more complex and precise level design, which then can result in more difficult levels.

3) Both styles are needed to be succesful. You need to be able to think things through, but you also need to try them out -- otherwise you keep on missing even very obvious things. Checking true physics is also part of head solving in my opinion.

4) And here comes the hammer....

Quote"Already existing levels are unimportant"

Then why are we even here? Why are we still following? Why are we even building levels if everything we do is unimportant and doesn't matter? This sentence is a punch in the face for every person who has created a level!
If this is true then we can all stop and call it a day as creating levels is now unimportant.
My whole purpose here is to provide and test content for the people out there and it's now called unimportant. This feels like a knife in the back to be honest.

Quote"If a level does not use player-confusing features, then it will automatically work in the future, too."

Tell that to the people who used radiation and slowfreeze for example.
Also the confusing part HIGHLY depends on the person. If one single person finds a thing even slightly confusing and 100 people don't, then the whole thing gets under the culling axe and is ruined for everyone else? The definition of confusing is shifting for every single person and therefore is extremely shaky.
What is confusing? Which behaviors can I take as safe and granted? I used to know that, but now I am just scared to create new levels that use new stuff and techniques.

Quote"Removing some levels (be it because they don't fit the current culture or have become impossible) is an absolutely normal procedure."

The circumstances under which these removals happen now are the key. A skill that isn't even out yet shakes up a core mechanic. A face-left and flip merge threatens to cull a teleporter feature. Even disarmers were discussed to be culled and I don't need to bring up the overly hard radiation thing up again.
Before bugs and glitches were the main source of culling (as from Lemmix to NL) and that was perfectly acceptable! I just helped in finding the most content friendly way to fix them. Now only existing features and mechanics are being culled.

Quote"On the other hand levels relying too much on the fine points of the game mechanics or the terrain layout usually generate not quite as enthusiasthic feedback."

That I would call untrue and again HIGHLY depends on the person. An excellent level can use the fine points as well as the standard points to it's advantage.

Quote"The amount of code necessary for a feature is absolutely unimportant"

Complexity still plays a role. If a feature needs a year to be implemented then it's a factor. Also a feature that is only a line worth of code and statisfies a bunch of users is a factor.

And now I will speak free directly from my heart:

I only wanted to create and test levels. I didn't want all this physics discussion to happen. I even don't care about NL consisting of binary blobs or single files. I just want to play and ensure everyones content can be played and enjoyed.
But all these incomming culling frenzys, rants, conversion/maintenance work and feature removals are really pushing my limits.

The recent culling frenzy was absolutely uncalled for and to be 100% honest this is the thing I feared the most when namida left. The qoute you said when I ask you about the clear majority for the ceiling change sent me shivers down the spine: "It consists of me, me and me!" So why are we even discussing anymore?
First I found the culling of both radiation and slowfreeze very harsh, even if I am not a fan of both of the features. Also the decision came quite surprising as most people where more on the middle path of culling just slowfreeze as I recall. Then the ceiling change was decided with that qoute and shortly after teleporters came under fire and I fear the warning voices are not heard by you again.   
Before namida and you were in balance and you found a good middleway between critical changes and backwards compability -- now everything has be turned over to cull and replace, while Simon shouts and I qoute IRC here: "<SimonN> I want more oil poured into the ceiling discussion. The heat is intense, everybody is intense, the popcorn is unbearable."
Yes even more oil into the fire and drag the whole thing down even more.........
Even if this is meant in a more comical way it still is damaging, as I feel a lot of disarray currently. I know and like you Simon, but your fire for ranting and complaining goes too far from time to time. I want harmony not arguing! 

As namida isn't active anymore and even though I despite all these physics discussions, you need a counterpart that stands in for the existing content and I feel the need that I have to fill this void even if I hate to do it and it displays me as the bad guy from time to time.

Cull and keep. Change and tradition needs to be in balance! That is the guideline that stands as my goal.

As a final advice and closing sentence: I accept the decisions made until now, but I highly warn to go further down the culling route!


I want to go through my checklist and be done with it.....