Author Topic: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?  (Read 11766 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« on: February 22, 2016, 08:56:13 PM »
So, while they seemed fun at the time - gimmicks have gotten to the point where they cause a lot of mess to the code, and most of them are fairly pointless, some even have never been used.

With that in mind - I'm wondering if it's worth culling most of them. Some of the very popular ones with simple rule changes will be kept, such as Frenzy, Karoshi and Zombies.

Likewise, secret levels tend to be avoided in recent packs, and are another feature that was exciting and fun when first used, but doesn't tend to serve much purpose anymore. So I'm wondering if they should be cut, too.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 09:12:56 PM »
Secret levels ------- cull!  it's a puzzle game and not a game for finding the hidden trigger

gimmicks ------- cull!  there are too many of them and the majority is mostly just annoying

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 10:02:04 PM »
I'm pretty much thinking at this stage, that the only gimmicks worthwhile keeping are Frenzy, Karoshi, Zombies, and maybe Ghosts. Perhaps even those should be ditched... there are a few level packs that rely on them, but these would remain playable on the older versions (which I guess I'd leave available).
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Offline Minim

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 10:09:17 PM »
Secret levels ------- cull!  it's a puzzle game and not a game for finding the hidden trigger

I totally agree on that.

As for gimmick levels, maybe we should move all these levels into a bonus pack? Each difficulty rating can then be classified as a different gimmick, a bit like the LPII bonus pack. We could also move the secret levels into the same place as the gimmick levels, and just cull the secret trigger button.
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 10:14:34 PM »
Moving the levels into a seperate pack doesn't solve the problem of them causing a lot of code mess.
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Offline Gronkling

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 10:24:36 PM »
Secret levels - They are a cool idea, but in practice their just not really that interesting, I wouldn't miss them.

I'm going to go through each gimmick and give my opinion if they are worth keeping.
  • Superlemming - This is an 'official' gimmick, but it's honestly just annoying. It doesn't add any extra puzzle. Cull
  • Frenzy - I know this one is used sometimes but I personally really hate it. One of the big reasons I like lemmings is because I can pause and take my time. I tend to play paused and frame-stepping rather than unpaused. Doesn't add much puzzle. (Personal opinion) Cull
  • Reverse Skill Count - Completely pointless. Cull
  • Karoshi - This one's relatively interesting I suppose, and people sometimes use it. Keep
  • Unalterable terrain - Has potential to be interesting. Undecided
  • Overflow skill count - Pointless.. Cull
  • No Gravity - Has potential but works a bit strangely. Undecided
  • Hard workers[/Undecided/color] - Hmm it's ok Undecided
  • Backwards walking - Just a pain really Cull
  • Lazy Lemmings - Mostly just a pain Cull
  • Exhaustion - Doesn't really do enough interesting to keep Cull
  • Non-fatal bomber - I like how it lets the nuke do something useful, but generally quite uninteresting. Cull
  • Invincibilty - Ultimately quite pointless, it basically just makes all traps fake Cull
  • One skill per lemming- Annoying Cull
  • Steel Inversion -Cull
  • Solid Floor - Cull
  • Non-Permanant Skills - Cull
  • Disobedience - This one's the worst Cull
  • Nuclear Bombers - Funny at first but not really worth it Cull
  • Turn Around on Assign - Cull
  • Count Down Other Skills - Cull
  • Assign to All - I like this on personally but I don't know if that makes it worth keeping  Undecided
  • Horizontal/Vertical Wrap/Deadly Sides - Would be better as an option on the level properties window  Undecided
  • Rising Water - Not much use Cull
  • Clock Gimmick - EDIT: I know what this does now, it's useless Cull
  • Zombies/Ghosts - People use them and seem to like them. I don't personally but others do. Is there any point in having to disable it though? Just don't put them in your level if you don't want them. Keep
  • Invert Fall Fatality - Cull
  • Cheapo Mode - Don't know what it does, seems to be more for helping conversion than a gimmick Undecided
  • Bait-and-switch - Painfully pointless Cull
  • Clone-on-assign - Cull
  • Instant pickup skills - OK, this one I really like, it allows for interesting self-playing demonstrations, may be better as an option on pickup skills themselves though. The only one I would miss Keep
  • Permanant Blockers - Cull
  • Release rate fluctuation - Cull
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 01:01:14 AM by Gronkling »

Offline Nepster

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 10:55:12 PM »
Secret levels: Cull. People I want to play all the levels, not have to search for them first.

Gimmicks (same color code as Gronkling used):
  • Karoshi: Fun idea.
  • No Gravity: Interesting idea, but getting lemmings down is so incredibly hard that all levels seem to center on this one problem. So I am not sure whether this allows for a great variety of interesting levels.
  • Backwards Lemmings: This is completely unintuitive to the player, hence tends to be annoying. But it might allow for quite a few interesting levels.
  • Horizontal/Vertical Wrap: This needs far better handling both in the player and in the editor to be worth keeping. The main problem is that the borders of the level still act as borders for the screen position. In the editor this makes it hard to get fitting terrain pieces at the edges and in the player it makes it hard to keep track of the lemmings and estimate where they will appear on the other side.
  • Deadly sides: On the one hand this is a great solution to a (in my opinion) big misdesign in NeoLemmix: That the left and right side are solid (and steel). On the other hand it makes the upmost 8 (or so) pixels deadly, which might unexpectedly kill lemmings.
  • Zombies/Ghosts: With the recent changes, these gimmicks disable the ability to place zombies/ghosts in the level! So a huge CULL here.
  • Clock Gimmick: This is the worst gimmick of all! It displays different levels depending on the time one plays the gimmick! CULL, CULL, CULL!
All others can be culled.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 05:55:13 PM by Nepster »

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 10:58:01 PM »
Quote
Zombies/Ghosts: With the recent changes, these gimmicks disable the ability to place zombies/ghosts in the level! So a huge CULL here.

There has been no change in that regard. The only change is that they're turned on by default (since turning them on but not placing any zombie / ghost lemmings has no effect, and if any are placed, generally the creator wants them to work) in the editor. So I assume you're meaning keep zombies / ghosts?

Quote
Deadly sides: On the one hand this is a great solution to a (in my opinion) big misdesign in NeoLemmix: That the left and right side are solid (and steel). On the other hand it makes the upmost 8 (or so) pixels deadly, which might unexpectedly kill lemmings.

This can be reconsidered. I'll make another topic for it.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 11:17:23 PM »
Quote
Zombies/Ghosts: With the recent changes, these gimmicks disable the ability to place zombies/ghosts in the level! So a huge CULL here.

There has been no change in that regard. The only change is that they're turned on by default (since turning them on but not placing any zombie / ghost lemmings has no effect, and if any are placed, generally the creator wants them to work) in the editor. So I assume you're meaning keep zombies / ghosts?
Thanks for the clarification: Yes, I want to keep ghosts (and zombies proved useful in many levels too). But I would still cull these gimmick options and allow placing zombies/ghosts in every level. As far as I remember, there is just one oddtabled level from you that explicitely needs turning the zombie gimmick off. This might not be enough reason to keep these as extra options.

Offline mobius

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2016, 11:52:48 PM »
I agree most of the gimmicks are not very useful or interesting; however I do like a small few of them but would appreciate these game features taking some other form then the way they currently are in “gimmick form” like you’re doing with zombies.

Definitely don't remove secret levels! I find that concept a lot of fun, much like challenges. It’s an extra aspect of the game that isn’t required to solve the game but there for players who want further play-ability.

One skill per lemming - this one is an excellent one: if you need proof just take a look at the challenge thread of this exact parameter. I had a lot of fun trying this challenge out on Lemmings Revolution for example.
I would even suggest implementing the 'skills to only one or few lemmings challenge'. This could most easily be achieved with creating “dummy lemmings” or lemmings which cannot be assigned skills at all; but still can exit.

Rising Water: I would at least keep the code all the information you used when making this one because this could be adapted into something more useful like the drainable/fillable pools from Revolution.  This feature has a lot of potential.

I also like deadly sides, in the way it is observed in Lix; all four sides are treated like the bottom.
posted in other thread

EDIT: I just thought that the exhaustion gimmick [or maybe the lazy gimmick I get these two confused but I think it's the former] may be not totally bad. If modified a bit it might have a lot of potential actually.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 03:15:23 AM by möbius »
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Simon

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 03:26:41 AM »
Props to namida for boldly proposing this.

If we keep a few gimmicks at all, let's turn them into standalone game elements. Instant-use skill pickups should look differently from pickups that increase skills in the panel. Per-level rule deviations are more problematic than extra gadgets.

The karoshi gimmick is both liked and impossible to turn into a game element. My hunch is to cull for simplicity. But I don't want to make a strong recommendation. In game design, we'd reserve these ideas for completely separate games.

I don't like secret levels, because I don't like "the game" to encompass more than one level at a time. Anything outside of a single level should be data management. We need powerful tooling to sort and find data.

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« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 03:40:25 AM by Simon »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »
Preliminary note: What follows is my opinion as someone who has followed the development of NeoLemmix and played a little, but not yet seriously played a NL pack with the intention of solving for myself, nor designed any levels for NL. However, I have in mind that I would love to play and design NL content when I have more time and when the game and its features are more stable.

Original Lemmings presents a series of challenges to the player, within the framework of an unchanging set of rules. There is also the challenge of figuring out what the rules are, but the player is helped through this by the first seven levels, often referred to as the tutorial levels even though they are not explicitly designated as such. However, there is one gimmick level where the nature of the challenge is changed -- Tricky 28, Lost Something. Perhaps also We All Fall Down, Bomboozal, and Just a Minute could be referred to as gimmick levels, as what you have to do is substantially different from the rest of the game. (ONML, of course, has the Superlemming gimmick...)

These levels have not aged well. Lost Something is pretty pointless once you know where the exit is. We All Fall Down is probably the most disliked level (series) in the game. Bomber timing as in Bomboozal is so unpopular that Lix and NL no longer support it. Inroducing Superlemming is actually a pretty decent puzzle, but it would be better without the gimmick.

That's not to say that all gimmicks are necessarily bad. In DROD, playing as a monster may be considered a gimmick. (In standard DROD, you control a human swordsman who must kill all monsters with his sword. Some levels have you controlling a monster, who can kill other monsters by stepping, but as the game is turn-based you must avoid stepping onto one monster such that you become vulnerable to another.) While this gimmick is used in a small minority of the total of DROD levels, it is very popular and many excellent puzzles have been created using it.

However, the disadvantage of any gimmick is that you have to learn a new set of rules. And indeed, some gimmicks have no point except the one-off joke of making the player figure out that a new rule is in effect -- I don't know all the gimmicks by name, but the clearest example is that one where you can continue assigning skills after the skillbar displays "0".

NL (currently) has too many gimmicks: there are too many rules for a new player to learn, for not nearly enough reward in terms of interesting puzzles. Some of them were okay as one-off jokes, and I wouldn't mind if the gimmick were culled from the editor + future levels, but kept in the pack where it originally appeared. (The first pack to use gimmicks did use a special music to warn the player that some new rule was in effect.) Many of the existing gimmicks are just not useful in puzzle creation, and I'd be happy to see them go. A couple, such as "No gravity" and "Unalterable terrain", at least enable puzzle concepts that are not possible without the gimmick -- but I just don't feel they add enough to be worth the annoyance of dealing with extra rules (and these two in particular tend to lead to very fiddly levels, from what I've seen).

So, rather than list every gimmick (as I don't know them all), I'll just stick to a list of ones I would like to see kept, and why.

Karoshi -- this allows puzzle concepts that are interestingly different from standard levels but equally fair, once you know how the gimmick behaves. The gimmick is discoverable as the preview text says "Killed" rather than "Saved".
Rising Water -- this is easily discoverable, allows new puzzle concepts, and should not be too annoying. It could be a little annoying as there is one more thing you have to estimate, in terms of balance against the timing of lemmings' walking speed, but I think it could be used well. I would like to use it occasionally.
Zombie/Ghost -- I haven't studied the game/editor enough to know why these are listed as gimmicks. If you just mean retaining the zombie/ghost game elements, then they certainly lead to new interesting puzzle concepts (I have seen them used well in namida's videos of mobius's levels) and are visibly different from normal lemmings.

...and yeah, that's about it  :P  In response to mobius, I don't think One skill per lemming need be kept as a gimmick, since it exists as a possible setting for talismans.

* * *

Secret levels are a very different issue. The way they were originally implemented was annoying: you had to find an invisible trigger, which could be anywhere on the level. Hitting a secret level trigger by accident could mess up an otherwise good solution.

However, I seem to remember secret levels can now also be unlocked by getting a talisman. I think that's a nice feature to have as a possibility. Another is unlocking secret levels by completing every level in a rank: then you could have unlock-all and still have a reward for completion. DROD has secret rooms and levels. (A DROD room is one puzzle; a level is a set of themed puzzles; a level is like a rank in Lemmings, except that a typical hold has more levels and fewer rooms per level). These were first implemented in Journey to Rooted Hold, and in that game, the typical method of finding secrets was noticing cracks in the wall, indicating a wall you could break with your sword. The usermade hold Gigantic Jewel Lost was greatly innovative with secrets whose access was clearly visible, but required clearing an outer room in a more challenging way, and this idea was incorporated into the latest official hold, The Second Sky. It has proven immensely popular with the DROD community, though as it's quite difficult to make a dual-solution outer room, there are still many secrets hidden the older way.

One reason for the continued existence of secrets in DROD is that there is usually a "master wall", which opens when all secrets are found, and unlocks the final layer of content. However, even without this, the excitement of finding secrets has always added to the pleasure of playing a well-designed DROD hold.

Offline Nepster

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 05:51:36 PM »
Two gimmicks were not yet discussed: Zombies/Ghosts on Death (as seen in Doomsday Lemmings II)
They are pretty new, so I don't know how many uses they will have. But compared to other gimmicks these gimmicks have some advantages:
1) The horror style has terrain pieces that indicate whether this gimmick is turned on or not. Actually I would make these visual indicators obligatory: One turns this gimmick on by placing the corresponding terrain piece (which maybe can be turned into objects if this is more convenient) in the level.
2) They do not drastically change the game mechanics, but rather combine existing mechanics. As the transition living being -> ghost/zombie is common in fictional settings, this gimmick would not totally surprising to players and can be easily understood.
3) They do not require a great amount of source code (at least I think so).

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2016, 10:50:06 PM »
Keep List
Zombies and Ghost + Either on death - It allows more ideas to be born, can make for something interesting, Honestly my favorite of the gimmicks
SuperLemming - I know unpopular opinion and all but It does make 1 lemming for longs level not be as time consuming as it looks
Backwards Lemmings - Can open for some interesting puzzles
Horizontal / Vertical wrap -  I see interesting potential for this gimmick, When you design a level around this gimmick it can be fun
Lazy Lemmings - Can turn simple designed levels into something brain busting if done correctly, personally i've been wanting to design a level around this gimmick myself
One skill per lemming - Makes you think real carefully about how to solve certain puzzles honestly i think there can be real potential around this
Nonfatal Bombers - I like the idea, It opens for some interesting karoshi levels
Nuclear Bombers - I want to work with this gimmick some more, trying to time a careful place super bomber or placing a super bomber in the right spot if the level is designed around it
Hardworkers - Sounds fun IMO, just need some better ways to work with it

Unsure list
Bait and Switch - This should be exclusive to Flexi toolkit, because like if you want to make interesting situations, it should be applied there and not in the editor itself
Solid floor -I guess this could work for something but i dont know
Deadly sides - Unless you like small levels, this isn't something you're gonna use alot, but i like the idea
Clone on assign - Kinda makes levels too easy IMO, you really have to think of a brilliant design
Unalterable Terrain - Like the idea, but it feels limited in most areas
Assign to all - Sounds fun, just haven't played with it yet
Rising water - I think it needs to be tweaked but i did enjoy this one

Remove list
Frenzy - Whats the point?
Clock gimmick - this one is outright impossible
Disobedience - If anything mischievous lemmings should replace this one
Exhaustion - This one is hard to edit with, and a nightmare for climbing terrain
Classic Zombies - Again Whats the point?
Skill count overflow - makes levels a joke
Fluctuating Release Rate - Its sound really uncertain TBH
Turnaround on assign - This one is not fun, from both a edit standpoint and a player standpoint

and as for secret level, why not make 'em alternate exits? or Exits of a different color like if i wanted to make a level with a secret level trigger, I put an extra choice to go to the otherside of the level, and solve the level there, honestly Secret could be handled better

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 02:49:55 AM »
Quote
1) The horror style has terrain pieces that indicate whether this gimmick is turned on or not. Actually I would make these visual indicators obligatory: One turns this gimmick on by placing the corresponding terrain piece (which maybe can be turned into objects if this is more convenient) in the level.
2) They do not drastically change the game mechanics, but rather combine existing mechanics. As the transition living being -> ghost/zombie is common in fictional settings, this gimmick would not totally surprising to players and can be easily understood.

1. That's quite possible. The downside is that a format change (or a major kludge workaround) would be required to implement terrain, even as VGASPECs (Doomsday Lemmings II uses those to place the signs in the non-Horror levels), doing anything like that; objects on the other hand would be much simpler but would need to be implemented into every graphic set, making another "should be in a "common stuff" graphic set, but NeoLemmix currently doesn't support set-mixing" situation - which would only make things trickier when a "common stuff" graphic set / set-mixing does become possible, accounting for existing levels.

2. This is a very good point.
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