Author Topic: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?  (Read 11773 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« on: February 22, 2016, 08:56:13 PM »
So, while they seemed fun at the time - gimmicks have gotten to the point where they cause a lot of mess to the code, and most of them are fairly pointless, some even have never been used.

With that in mind - I'm wondering if it's worth culling most of them. Some of the very popular ones with simple rule changes will be kept, such as Frenzy, Karoshi and Zombies.

Likewise, secret levels tend to be avoided in recent packs, and are another feature that was exciting and fun when first used, but doesn't tend to serve much purpose anymore. So I'm wondering if they should be cut, too.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 09:12:56 PM »
Secret levels ------- cull!  it's a puzzle game and not a game for finding the hidden trigger

gimmicks ------- cull!  there are too many of them and the majority is mostly just annoying

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 10:02:04 PM »
I'm pretty much thinking at this stage, that the only gimmicks worthwhile keeping are Frenzy, Karoshi, Zombies, and maybe Ghosts. Perhaps even those should be ditched... there are a few level packs that rely on them, but these would remain playable on the older versions (which I guess I'd leave available).
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Offline Minim

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 10:09:17 PM »
Secret levels ------- cull!  it's a puzzle game and not a game for finding the hidden trigger

I totally agree on that.

As for gimmick levels, maybe we should move all these levels into a bonus pack? Each difficulty rating can then be classified as a different gimmick, a bit like the LPII bonus pack. We could also move the secret levels into the same place as the gimmick levels, and just cull the secret trigger button.
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 10:14:34 PM »
Moving the levels into a seperate pack doesn't solve the problem of them causing a lot of code mess.
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Offline Gronkling

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2016, 10:24:36 PM »
Secret levels - They are a cool idea, but in practice their just not really that interesting, I wouldn't miss them.

I'm going to go through each gimmick and give my opinion if they are worth keeping.
  • Superlemming - This is an 'official' gimmick, but it's honestly just annoying. It doesn't add any extra puzzle. Cull
  • Frenzy - I know this one is used sometimes but I personally really hate it. One of the big reasons I like lemmings is because I can pause and take my time. I tend to play paused and frame-stepping rather than unpaused. Doesn't add much puzzle. (Personal opinion) Cull
  • Reverse Skill Count - Completely pointless. Cull
  • Karoshi - This one's relatively interesting I suppose, and people sometimes use it. Keep
  • Unalterable terrain - Has potential to be interesting. Undecided
  • Overflow skill count - Pointless.. Cull
  • No Gravity - Has potential but works a bit strangely. Undecided
  • Hard workers[/Undecided/color] - Hmm it's ok Undecided
  • Backwards walking - Just a pain really Cull
  • Lazy Lemmings - Mostly just a pain Cull
  • Exhaustion - Doesn't really do enough interesting to keep Cull
  • Non-fatal bomber - I like how it lets the nuke do something useful, but generally quite uninteresting. Cull
  • Invincibilty - Ultimately quite pointless, it basically just makes all traps fake Cull
  • One skill per lemming- Annoying Cull
  • Steel Inversion -Cull
  • Solid Floor - Cull
  • Non-Permanant Skills - Cull
  • Disobedience - This one's the worst Cull
  • Nuclear Bombers - Funny at first but not really worth it Cull
  • Turn Around on Assign - Cull
  • Count Down Other Skills - Cull
  • Assign to All - I like this on personally but I don't know if that makes it worth keeping  Undecided
  • Horizontal/Vertical Wrap/Deadly Sides - Would be better as an option on the level properties window  Undecided
  • Rising Water - Not much use Cull
  • Clock Gimmick - EDIT: I know what this does now, it's useless Cull
  • Zombies/Ghosts - People use them and seem to like them. I don't personally but others do. Is there any point in having to disable it though? Just don't put them in your level if you don't want them. Keep
  • Invert Fall Fatality - Cull
  • Cheapo Mode - Don't know what it does, seems to be more for helping conversion than a gimmick Undecided
  • Bait-and-switch - Painfully pointless Cull
  • Clone-on-assign - Cull
  • Instant pickup skills - OK, this one I really like, it allows for interesting self-playing demonstrations, may be better as an option on pickup skills themselves though. The only one I would miss Keep
  • Permanant Blockers - Cull
  • Release rate fluctuation - Cull
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 01:01:14 AM by Gronkling »

Offline Nepster

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2016, 10:55:12 PM »
Secret levels: Cull. People I want to play all the levels, not have to search for them first.

Gimmicks (same color code as Gronkling used):
  • Karoshi: Fun idea.
  • No Gravity: Interesting idea, but getting lemmings down is so incredibly hard that all levels seem to center on this one problem. So I am not sure whether this allows for a great variety of interesting levels.
  • Backwards Lemmings: This is completely unintuitive to the player, hence tends to be annoying. But it might allow for quite a few interesting levels.
  • Horizontal/Vertical Wrap: This needs far better handling both in the player and in the editor to be worth keeping. The main problem is that the borders of the level still act as borders for the screen position. In the editor this makes it hard to get fitting terrain pieces at the edges and in the player it makes it hard to keep track of the lemmings and estimate where they will appear on the other side.
  • Deadly sides: On the one hand this is a great solution to a (in my opinion) big misdesign in NeoLemmix: That the left and right side are solid (and steel). On the other hand it makes the upmost 8 (or so) pixels deadly, which might unexpectedly kill lemmings.
  • Zombies/Ghosts: With the recent changes, these gimmicks disable the ability to place zombies/ghosts in the level! So a huge CULL here.
  • Clock Gimmick: This is the worst gimmick of all! It displays different levels depending on the time one plays the gimmick! CULL, CULL, CULL!
All others can be culled.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 05:55:13 PM by Nepster »

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2016, 10:58:01 PM »
Quote
Zombies/Ghosts: With the recent changes, these gimmicks disable the ability to place zombies/ghosts in the level! So a huge CULL here.

There has been no change in that regard. The only change is that they're turned on by default (since turning them on but not placing any zombie / ghost lemmings has no effect, and if any are placed, generally the creator wants them to work) in the editor. So I assume you're meaning keep zombies / ghosts?

Quote
Deadly sides: On the one hand this is a great solution to a (in my opinion) big misdesign in NeoLemmix: That the left and right side are solid (and steel). On the other hand it makes the upmost 8 (or so) pixels deadly, which might unexpectedly kill lemmings.

This can be reconsidered. I'll make another topic for it.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2016, 11:17:23 PM »
Quote
Zombies/Ghosts: With the recent changes, these gimmicks disable the ability to place zombies/ghosts in the level! So a huge CULL here.

There has been no change in that regard. The only change is that they're turned on by default (since turning them on but not placing any zombie / ghost lemmings has no effect, and if any are placed, generally the creator wants them to work) in the editor. So I assume you're meaning keep zombies / ghosts?
Thanks for the clarification: Yes, I want to keep ghosts (and zombies proved useful in many levels too). But I would still cull these gimmick options and allow placing zombies/ghosts in every level. As far as I remember, there is just one oddtabled level from you that explicitely needs turning the zombie gimmick off. This might not be enough reason to keep these as extra options.

Offline mobius

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2016, 11:52:48 PM »
I agree most of the gimmicks are not very useful or interesting; however I do like a small few of them but would appreciate these game features taking some other form then the way they currently are in “gimmick form” like you’re doing with zombies.

Definitely don't remove secret levels! I find that concept a lot of fun, much like challenges. It’s an extra aspect of the game that isn’t required to solve the game but there for players who want further play-ability.

One skill per lemming - this one is an excellent one: if you need proof just take a look at the challenge thread of this exact parameter. I had a lot of fun trying this challenge out on Lemmings Revolution for example.
I would even suggest implementing the 'skills to only one or few lemmings challenge'. This could most easily be achieved with creating “dummy lemmings” or lemmings which cannot be assigned skills at all; but still can exit.

Rising Water: I would at least keep the code all the information you used when making this one because this could be adapted into something more useful like the drainable/fillable pools from Revolution.  This feature has a lot of potential.

I also like deadly sides, in the way it is observed in Lix; all four sides are treated like the bottom.
posted in other thread

EDIT: I just thought that the exhaustion gimmick [or maybe the lazy gimmick I get these two confused but I think it's the former] may be not totally bad. If modified a bit it might have a lot of potential actually.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 03:15:23 AM by möbius »
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Offline Simon

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 03:26:41 AM »
Props to namida for boldly proposing this.

If we keep a few gimmicks at all, let's turn them into standalone game elements. Instant-use skill pickups should look differently from pickups that increase skills in the panel. Per-level rule deviations are more problematic than extra gadgets.

The karoshi gimmick is both liked and impossible to turn into a game element. My hunch is to cull for simplicity. But I don't want to make a strong recommendation. In game design, we'd reserve these ideas for completely separate games.

I don't like secret levels, because I don't like "the game" to encompass more than one level at a time. Anything outside of a single level should be data management. We need powerful tooling to sort and find data.

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« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 03:40:25 AM by Simon »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »
Preliminary note: What follows is my opinion as someone who has followed the development of NeoLemmix and played a little, but not yet seriously played a NL pack with the intention of solving for myself, nor designed any levels for NL. However, I have in mind that I would love to play and design NL content when I have more time and when the game and its features are more stable.

Original Lemmings presents a series of challenges to the player, within the framework of an unchanging set of rules. There is also the challenge of figuring out what the rules are, but the player is helped through this by the first seven levels, often referred to as the tutorial levels even though they are not explicitly designated as such. However, there is one gimmick level where the nature of the challenge is changed -- Tricky 28, Lost Something. Perhaps also We All Fall Down, Bomboozal, and Just a Minute could be referred to as gimmick levels, as what you have to do is substantially different from the rest of the game. (ONML, of course, has the Superlemming gimmick...)

These levels have not aged well. Lost Something is pretty pointless once you know where the exit is. We All Fall Down is probably the most disliked level (series) in the game. Bomber timing as in Bomboozal is so unpopular that Lix and NL no longer support it. Inroducing Superlemming is actually a pretty decent puzzle, but it would be better without the gimmick.

That's not to say that all gimmicks are necessarily bad. In DROD, playing as a monster may be considered a gimmick. (In standard DROD, you control a human swordsman who must kill all monsters with his sword. Some levels have you controlling a monster, who can kill other monsters by stepping, but as the game is turn-based you must avoid stepping onto one monster such that you become vulnerable to another.) While this gimmick is used in a small minority of the total of DROD levels, it is very popular and many excellent puzzles have been created using it.

However, the disadvantage of any gimmick is that you have to learn a new set of rules. And indeed, some gimmicks have no point except the one-off joke of making the player figure out that a new rule is in effect -- I don't know all the gimmicks by name, but the clearest example is that one where you can continue assigning skills after the skillbar displays "0".

NL (currently) has too many gimmicks: there are too many rules for a new player to learn, for not nearly enough reward in terms of interesting puzzles. Some of them were okay as one-off jokes, and I wouldn't mind if the gimmick were culled from the editor + future levels, but kept in the pack where it originally appeared. (The first pack to use gimmicks did use a special music to warn the player that some new rule was in effect.) Many of the existing gimmicks are just not useful in puzzle creation, and I'd be happy to see them go. A couple, such as "No gravity" and "Unalterable terrain", at least enable puzzle concepts that are not possible without the gimmick -- but I just don't feel they add enough to be worth the annoyance of dealing with extra rules (and these two in particular tend to lead to very fiddly levels, from what I've seen).

So, rather than list every gimmick (as I don't know them all), I'll just stick to a list of ones I would like to see kept, and why.

Karoshi -- this allows puzzle concepts that are interestingly different from standard levels but equally fair, once you know how the gimmick behaves. The gimmick is discoverable as the preview text says "Killed" rather than "Saved".
Rising Water -- this is easily discoverable, allows new puzzle concepts, and should not be too annoying. It could be a little annoying as there is one more thing you have to estimate, in terms of balance against the timing of lemmings' walking speed, but I think it could be used well. I would like to use it occasionally.
Zombie/Ghost -- I haven't studied the game/editor enough to know why these are listed as gimmicks. If you just mean retaining the zombie/ghost game elements, then they certainly lead to new interesting puzzle concepts (I have seen them used well in namida's videos of mobius's levels) and are visibly different from normal lemmings.

...and yeah, that's about it  :P  In response to mobius, I don't think One skill per lemming need be kept as a gimmick, since it exists as a possible setting for talismans.

* * *

Secret levels are a very different issue. The way they were originally implemented was annoying: you had to find an invisible trigger, which could be anywhere on the level. Hitting a secret level trigger by accident could mess up an otherwise good solution.

However, I seem to remember secret levels can now also be unlocked by getting a talisman. I think that's a nice feature to have as a possibility. Another is unlocking secret levels by completing every level in a rank: then you could have unlock-all and still have a reward for completion. DROD has secret rooms and levels. (A DROD room is one puzzle; a level is a set of themed puzzles; a level is like a rank in Lemmings, except that a typical hold has more levels and fewer rooms per level). These were first implemented in Journey to Rooted Hold, and in that game, the typical method of finding secrets was noticing cracks in the wall, indicating a wall you could break with your sword. The usermade hold Gigantic Jewel Lost was greatly innovative with secrets whose access was clearly visible, but required clearing an outer room in a more challenging way, and this idea was incorporated into the latest official hold, The Second Sky. It has proven immensely popular with the DROD community, though as it's quite difficult to make a dual-solution outer room, there are still many secrets hidden the older way.

One reason for the continued existence of secrets in DROD is that there is usually a "master wall", which opens when all secrets are found, and unlocks the final layer of content. However, even without this, the excitement of finding secrets has always added to the pleasure of playing a well-designed DROD hold.

Offline Nepster

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 05:51:36 PM »
Two gimmicks were not yet discussed: Zombies/Ghosts on Death (as seen in Doomsday Lemmings II)
They are pretty new, so I don't know how many uses they will have. But compared to other gimmicks these gimmicks have some advantages:
1) The horror style has terrain pieces that indicate whether this gimmick is turned on or not. Actually I would make these visual indicators obligatory: One turns this gimmick on by placing the corresponding terrain piece (which maybe can be turned into objects if this is more convenient) in the level.
2) They do not drastically change the game mechanics, but rather combine existing mechanics. As the transition living being -> ghost/zombie is common in fictional settings, this gimmick would not totally surprising to players and can be easily understood.
3) They do not require a great amount of source code (at least I think so).

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2016, 10:50:06 PM »
Keep List
Zombies and Ghost + Either on death - It allows more ideas to be born, can make for something interesting, Honestly my favorite of the gimmicks
SuperLemming - I know unpopular opinion and all but It does make 1 lemming for longs level not be as time consuming as it looks
Backwards Lemmings - Can open for some interesting puzzles
Horizontal / Vertical wrap -  I see interesting potential for this gimmick, When you design a level around this gimmick it can be fun
Lazy Lemmings - Can turn simple designed levels into something brain busting if done correctly, personally i've been wanting to design a level around this gimmick myself
One skill per lemming - Makes you think real carefully about how to solve certain puzzles honestly i think there can be real potential around this
Nonfatal Bombers - I like the idea, It opens for some interesting karoshi levels
Nuclear Bombers - I want to work with this gimmick some more, trying to time a careful place super bomber or placing a super bomber in the right spot if the level is designed around it
Hardworkers - Sounds fun IMO, just need some better ways to work with it

Unsure list
Bait and Switch - This should be exclusive to Flexi toolkit, because like if you want to make interesting situations, it should be applied there and not in the editor itself
Solid floor -I guess this could work for something but i dont know
Deadly sides - Unless you like small levels, this isn't something you're gonna use alot, but i like the idea
Clone on assign - Kinda makes levels too easy IMO, you really have to think of a brilliant design
Unalterable Terrain - Like the idea, but it feels limited in most areas
Assign to all - Sounds fun, just haven't played with it yet
Rising water - I think it needs to be tweaked but i did enjoy this one

Remove list
Frenzy - Whats the point?
Clock gimmick - this one is outright impossible
Disobedience - If anything mischievous lemmings should replace this one
Exhaustion - This one is hard to edit with, and a nightmare for climbing terrain
Classic Zombies - Again Whats the point?
Skill count overflow - makes levels a joke
Fluctuating Release Rate - Its sound really uncertain TBH
Turnaround on assign - This one is not fun, from both a edit standpoint and a player standpoint

and as for secret level, why not make 'em alternate exits? or Exits of a different color like if i wanted to make a level with a secret level trigger, I put an extra choice to go to the otherside of the level, and solve the level there, honestly Secret could be handled better

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 02:49:55 AM »
Quote
1) The horror style has terrain pieces that indicate whether this gimmick is turned on or not. Actually I would make these visual indicators obligatory: One turns this gimmick on by placing the corresponding terrain piece (which maybe can be turned into objects if this is more convenient) in the level.
2) They do not drastically change the game mechanics, but rather combine existing mechanics. As the transition living being -> ghost/zombie is common in fictional settings, this gimmick would not totally surprising to players and can be easily understood.

1. That's quite possible. The downside is that a format change (or a major kludge workaround) would be required to implement terrain, even as VGASPECs (Doomsday Lemmings II uses those to place the signs in the non-Horror levels), doing anything like that; objects on the other hand would be much simpler but would need to be implemented into every graphic set, making another "should be in a "common stuff" graphic set, but NeoLemmix currently doesn't support set-mixing" situation - which would only make things trickier when a "common stuff" graphic set / set-mixing does become possible, accounting for existing levels.

2. This is a very good point.
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Offline Wafflem

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2016, 04:16:19 AM »
Aside from the most popular ones, if there is one gimmick that is worth keeping, it's Cheapo Mode. We need this gimmick to be able to emulate some Cheapo mechanics if we convert all the available Cheapo levels, as without that, some levels in Copycat Lemmings or the Cheapo levels become impossible due to this. Also, the removal may harm some levels in Revenge of the Lemmings like Devious 18 "Lemmings of Persia" and Armageddon 12 "The Hotel in Hell".
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2016, 08:00:35 AM »
I'm not sure how I feel about keeping that. I think that if we're looking to actually put the levels into NeoLemmix packs, they should be properly remade. The "Cheapo Mode" thing is kind of hacky, brings inconsistencies, and so on; and the motivation behind supporting it was that we otherwise have no way at all to play Cheapo levels on modern PCs, as Cheapo itself performs horribly on them. As long as a NeoLemmix version which remains available (which the last version which retains gimmick / etc support will) can play them, on modern PCs, I don't think it's critical that all future versions do.

Likewise, if Cheapo were ever to be fixed so that it works on modern PCs, I would also consider there to be no need to maintain Cheapo support in NeoLemmix.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2016, 09:34:11 AM »
Also, the removal may harm some levels in Revenge of the Lemmings like Devious 18 "Lemmings of Persia" and Armageddon 12 "The Hotel in Hell".

It would be worth taking the time to correct those levels so that Cheapo Mode is not necessary. I assume it's mainly a matter of the fall distance? But for a compilation pack like RotL where these levels appear in the midst of others with standard mechanics, it's unfair to suddenly change the safe fall distance for a level here and there without warning. Consistency > faithfulness to the original. Anyway, I think Lemmings of Persia is mainly a "float down, build up" level, so you could compensate by adding a couple of extra builders? Hotel in Hell uses standard graphics (Fire style), so you could adjust the spacing of the terrain pieces.

Offline 607

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2016, 11:37:16 AM »
Ah, found the topic, nice.
So... I don't like secret level triggers, unless it's very clearly stated where you need to go. I do like unlocking secret levels by completing every level in a rank or getting talismans.
Now for the gimmicks: I like the idea, but most are way too gimmick-y and not useful at all.
I was planning on using four different gimmicks in my own pack, though.
I think the gimmicks I like would be:
Backwards lemmings
Karoshi
One skill per Lemming
Nonfatal bombers
Unalterable terrain
Assign to all

The ones I really dislike:
Frenzy
Clock
Disobedience

The other ones, I don't really know, I wouldn't mind if they were kept, I wouldn't instantly miss them if they were 'culled' (I think I learnt a new word this week)

Offline Flopsy

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2016, 04:58:03 PM »
I liked the gimmick levels when I played the Neo Lemmix introduction pack but if a majority of them had to go for sake of simplicity in coding then that would be fine.

I feel like I've missed out a lot on when the gimmicks were progressing in Neo Lemmix but I can always play catch up on an older version of Neo Lemmix if necessary.

It should be noted that unless the gimmick was in the Neo Lemmix Intro pack, I have not encountered them so I'm only referring to the ones in that pack.


I'm not a fan of secret levels because I'm not the sort of person who sends Lemmings on exploration missions so I wouldn't find the majority of them (if any!?).

Not sure if this is being discussed but I like the idea of Talismans as I'm someone who is a fan of the achievement/trophy system on PS and Xbox.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2016, 03:36:03 AM »
After some consideration, I feel that the best answer is to simply remove all of them; even including Superlemming. While some may be quite fun, I do think they go against the increasingly-strong desire for consistency.

NeoLemmix V1.43n-B (or whatever the last version that supports them ends up being) will remain available even after newer versions get released, to ensure that a version that supports gimmicks is available for those who want to play old levels that use them. In particular, it willl be important for converted-from-Cheapo levels, since NeoLemmix conversions are currently the optimal way to play Cheapo-origin levels on modern PCs where Cheapo itself doesn't work very nicely.

Wrap-around might eventually see reintroduction as a proper feature, most likely implemented in a fashion more similar to how Lix handles it than how NeoLemmix currently does. In regards to deadly sides, I would rather not have the behaviour of the sides differ between levels; I am open to changing the behaviour in general but would like one common behaviour across all levels. There is a seperate topic for discussing this: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2537.0


In regards to secret levels, it was raised on IRC several days ago that while secret level triggers are annoying, secret levels themself aren't nessecerially so bad if unlocked via less-annoying means, including the current alternative option of unlocking them by obtaining talismans. I am almost certianly going to remove secret level triggers, but I'd like further discussion on whether these other methods of reaching secret levels should be kept, or if the secret level concept should be ditched altogether.


Once I'm finished removing the code for gimmicks (since that'll tidy things up a lot) - and probably doing some other general tidy-up of physics code (the remove-commented-out-or-never-used-code type, not the actually-change-anything type) - I'll probably create topics for every action in a similar vein to the current topic on Climbers. This way, we can both discuss if there are changes that need to be made, and potentially spot bugs more easily. At the moment, I've made a version that's gimmick-free, but the code to actually implement the effects of gimmicks is still mostly there (apart from Superlemming and Bait-and-Switch; it also doesn't display the modified preview/postview screens for Karoshi, but the in-game code for it is still there), LemGame.pas's "TLemmingGame.CheckGimmick" function (used to check if a level has a certain gimmick on it) just always returns FALSE. Actually stripping out the code that implements them is the next step.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:26:13 AM by namida »
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2016, 07:42:59 AM »
Does this mean only the gimmick window stuff?

Cause as the Zombie thing is now natural supported and as a little defender of already existing content I have to be on the side of the bigger Zombie packs ;)
As I understand it now: Everything goes out of the window, except the Zombie stuff. Am I right or is this a missunderstanding? ???


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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2016, 04:26:31 PM »
I'm not sure on that one. My initial thought was to scrap those too, but there is a stronger argument for keeping zombies than there is for any of the others.

On one hand, they don't interfere with the code too much (basically just require code to make them not interact with a few types of objects), and are established to a much stronger level than most other gimmicks, I guess I can consider keeping zombies as a core feature. Ghosts don't really seem to be either useful enough or popular enough to bother - so we'll get rid of them while they're still that way.

One reason against them is that they do complicate the graphical side of things. Currently, lemming sprites are very consistent, so a simple hack can be used to make trap / teleporter animations work for zombies - when displaying the animation replace the normal lemming skin color with the zombie skin color. Especially as we get into higher-res graphics - or those (eg. the bee trap from LPV) where the lemming's tone changes during the trap animation - the only way to have proper graphics when a zombie is killed is to specifically require the set designers to make two versions of the animation - a regular version and a zombie version.
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Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2016, 04:39:07 PM »
Ghosts don't really seem to be either useful enough or popular enough to bother - so we'll get rid of them while they're still that way.
I was gonna make a level pack with ghosts, i loved the feature, I dont want to see potential gone, i dont want them removed
(if that is the case then, I guess i'll stop upgrading neolemmix :( )

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2016, 04:50:14 PM »
If you really want to not upgrade, that's your call, but be aware that your packs wont' work with newer versions, and most other people's packs won't work with your version, not to mention once the content database goes up, your copy of NeoLemmix won't work with that either. The last version of NeoLemmix that does support them will remain available, but that'll mostly be for the sake of playing older content that isn't supported anymore - not to encourage people to continue creating it. I don't intend to leave the older editor available, unless another reason to do so comes up (eg. if it becomes impossible or over-complicated to continue supporting SuperLemmini).

It's partly my fault for sure, for introducing too much new, gimmicky stuff in the first place that really doesn't need to be there. But now is the best time to clear that up - while there's still very little content that uses it, rather than waiting until there's even more.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2016, 06:05:50 PM »
Zombies:
I am 100% for keeping Zombies (even though i personally don't plan anything to do with them in the near fututre), as I think they add enough value to the game to keep them. + there is quite a lot of content created with it by now that is worth to protect! (RGL, MobiLems 2, DoomsdayLemmings....). Also as you said they don't interfere with the code too much.

Ghosts:
I don't see them as really useful, too. Even the concept i find quite weird and didn't really understand all the cases of interaction with them. And the only released content with them is your own. There are just a bunch non-released levels I assume.


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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2016, 07:36:17 PM »
For those who are in favor of retaining zombies - do you have any proposals on the best way to handle trap / teleporter / etc graphics for them, keeping in mind the possibility that they may have to work together with custom lemming graphics? (Which now that I think about it, those in themself could probably do with a way to work better with custom lemming graphics.)

@Simon: How does Lix handle this in regards to triggered traps, with the varying colors in multiplayer; in case something similar may be an option for handling custom lemming graphics / zombies?
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2016, 07:43:06 PM »
How is it handeled right now?

Maybe simply switch out clolors a,b,c of the Lemming and replace them with the zomble equivalent. This could run into problems if an animation uses the exact same colorcode as one part of the Lemming.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2016, 07:47:01 PM »
Lix multiplayer trap handling: When a trap is open, lems from different teams can be eaten at the same time, but at most 1 per team. When at least 1 lemming has been fed to the trap, it starts one cycle of killing animation. During the killing animation, the trap is safe for all teams, even for those that haven't fed it.

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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2016, 07:49:08 PM »
How is it handeled right now?

Maybe simply switch out clolors a,b,c of the Lemming and replace them with the zomble equivalent. This could run into problems if an animation uses the exact same colorcode as one part of the Lemming.

Yes, the latter is a potential problem. Current handling is to replace any pixel that's colored like regular lemming skin with the color of zombie skin. This already would fail on, eg. the Bee trap in LPV, since the skin reddens as the animation continues - as soon as it changes, the lemming will appear in normal colors rather than zombie colors.

One possibility is to do something similar to the "masking" in system graphics, but for lemming colors. This would need to support multiple possible colors though, so short of having a seperate mask for every color I'm still not really sure how to best do this while future-proofing it for supporting alpha blending.

Quote
Lix multiplayer trap handling: When a trap is open, lems from different teams can be eaten at the same time, but at most 1 per team. When at least 1 lemming has been fed to the trap, it starts one cycle of killing animation. During the killing animation, the trap is safe for all teams, even for those that haven't fed it.

I'm meaning in terms of graphically - how does it handle drawing the correct colors?
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Offline Simon

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2016, 08:08:05 PM »
Quote
Lix multiplayer trap handling
I'm meaning in terms of graphically - how does it handle drawing the correct colors?

General color handling: We generate multiplayer spritesheets at runtime from the spritesheet and a table of color replacements. This works when we constrain ourselves to 10 to 20 colors.

Traps aren't recolored like that. The trap killing anim shows whatever is drawn in the file. Looks hackish. It's expensive to implement trap recoloring in my program design.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2016, 08:40:10 PM »
Perhaps let us first ask how important trap recoloring really is:
1) Has anyone shown an interest in changing the lemmings sprites themselves?
2) If one replaces the usual lemmings e.g. with the christmas/holiday lemmings, just changing some colors in the traps will still look bad. It will get even worse when the custom sprites are even less similar to the usual lemmings. So all trap animations would have to be completely customizable. This sounds like a lot of work to code.
So I wonder whether this will (similarly as for gimmicks) only produce lots of code with barely anyone using it?

Unless someone convinces me that there is a lot of demand for custom lemming sprites, I would just say: Use the same trap/teleport animation for both lemmings and zombies - and regardless of custom images.

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2016, 02:24:49 AM »
Completely customizing the animations would actually be easier in terms of coding than recoloring would be; but it would be harder for designers of custom lemming graphics. I'd also say that at least for the Santa Lemmings, the result isn't actually that bad - take a look at the icicle trap now added to the Xmas set; is it really noticable (when viewed in game, not when closely examined, I mean) that it's just a recolor of the normal one; no other changes? This may not hold true for all graphics, mind you.

But you are probably right that there won't be that much interest in custom sprites anyway. I would think though - if we're going to assume that there won't be that much interest in them, then perhaps the feature to do so should be culled altogether (still leaving the choice between regular and santa lemmings, of course), rather than leaving it half-way where you can customize the normal graphics but the traps end up displaying the wrong ones. Alternatively, if only these two variants exist, it's easy enough to allow traps / teleporters to specify two sets of animations - one for the regular lemmings, and one for the santa lemmings.
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2016, 05:30:31 AM »
While removing gimmicks from the code (note: for now at least, I'm not stripping zombies out, but I am stripping ghosts, and zombies-on-death, sorry), I came across a few things that show just how much gimmicks have overcomplicated and made a mess of the code, introducing subtle bugs.

The Swimmer skill in particular has a lot of these. A mild example - create a level that uses the Backwards Walkers gimmick and also has Swimmers.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A more serious one - create a level that uses No Gravity gimmick, has Swimmers, and has some water that ends in midair without terrain at the side (the edge of the level counts as "terrain" for the purpose of this).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There's probably heaps more that, between the complexity and messiness of gimmick implementation, and their relative lack of use, have gone complelety unnoticed. I only noticed these when looking at the source code while stripping the gimmicks out. I would guess that in particular, gimmicks that predate the new skills when used in combination with new skills are most likely to have problems.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 07:20:05 AM by namida »
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2016, 11:12:34 AM »
Alright. I've finished doing the version with most (if not all) gimmick code stripped, and I'd like it if people could help me test it.

Not asking for anything too in-depth. Basically - use it to test a few levels manually, and if possible, run a few mass replay checks with replays that you know work on V1.43n / V1.43n-B. The only situations in which replays should fail are:

1. If the level uses any gimmick other than Zombies.
2. If the level *doesn't* have the Zombies gimmick set, but does have some pre-placed lemmings or windows with the Zombie flag (because it no longer checks if the Zombie gimmick is set).
3. If the replay also fails on V1.43n / V1.43n-B.
4. (EDIT) Possibly if the level uses triggered exits, two-way teleporters or single-object teleporters; or is a replay that gets to a secret level trigger rather than solves the level.

(Perplexing 29 from Lemmings Plus Omega is an example of case 2, so replays from it should fail. In my tests, once I ironed out a few bugs that initially showed up, every Lemmings Plus replay except Perplexing 29 passed.)

If you do happen to notice any other leftover relics of any gimmick, let me know, no matter how minor they may be. Once again - the only gimmick that should remain, in any form, is Zombies. (This even includes that Classic Zombies, Zombie-on-Death and Ghosts should not.) Likewise, if you encounter any replays (other than those that are expected to fail due to one of the above reasons) that fail, or notice any unusual behaviour in general, let me know - be sure to send me the replays, if you're able to do so (obviously, if they relate to unreleased levels, that might not be possible, but in this case please at least try to describe the situation where the V1.43n / V1.43n-B behaviour is different from the behaviour in this test version). Do not bother to make new replays / modify the level, if it works on V1.43n / V1.43n-B and does not fall under any of the above categories, because this is a bug - the mechanics of this version should be identical to V1.43n / V1.43n-B outside of the removal of gimmicks and those few specific object types.

Note that while this copy is marked as an experimental release of V1.43n-C, I can promise that if there is an actual V1.43n-C release, it will have the gimmicks completely intact. Removing them absolutely warrants a new version number. But I probably won't release this until further work is done in other areas.

Also note - this doens't mean for sure zombies are staying. But since there's stronger arguments to keep them than anything else, unlike the others - which are going to go eventually - I'm open to keeping these, as a general gameplay mechanic. Precedent for alternate types of lemmings exists in Lemmings Revolution and Lemmings Touch; Zombies have shown themself to have a lot of potential beyond just "here's a weird twist"; there is far more content using them than there is for any other gimmick; and as far as coding goes they are very simple.

EDIT: I should also mention that triggered exits, secret level triggers (but not secret levels via talismans), single-object teleporters and two-way teleporters have also been removed in this copy.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 04:14:19 PM by namida »
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2016, 02:24:22 PM »
Tested Reunion + PimoLems + a few single levels (including some teleporters).  ----> All replays are still working!

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2016, 02:34:57 PM »
Quote
a few single levels (including some teleporters).

Regular teleporters will still work fine. It's only the two-way teleporters and single-object teleporters that are affected. :)

Anyway, great to hear that! :)
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2016, 01:07:38 PM »
Alright so - I think at this time, I'm going to decide that zombies can stay. We'll let content designers decide over time whether they should be considered a main feature, or reserved for special zombie-focused packs (like Doomsday Lemmings / Resident GigaLems / etc).

In regards to secret levels, as you can tell from the test version above, secret level triggers are being removed. I still haven't come to any final decision on whether or not to remove secret levels altogether, or to continue to allow them via less-annoying methods (such as unlocking a secret level when a talisman is obtained).
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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2016, 01:50:44 PM »
Zombies: I don't see why they should be excluded to only being allowed in certain packs. They're a great main feature. I don't think they clash with anything in the game play in any way.

I didn't even get to see what ghosts are like yet. Though they sound very similar to zombies so I guess I don't care.

What are triggered exits? You don't mean closed door exits with buttons? I love that feature!
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2016, 01:55:27 PM »
Quote
Zombies: I don't see why they should be excluded to only being allowed in certain packs. They're a great main feature. I don't think they clash with anything in the game play in any way.

I wasn't meaning as in "enforce them only being in certain packs", but rather, just letting it naturally go whichever way it does - similar to how there's nothing forcing you to have unlimited time instead of setting a 9 minute time limit on tiny levels, but the general community guideline is to use unlimited time in such a case.

Quote
What are triggered exits? You don't mean closed door exits with buttons? I love that feature!

No, that's locked exits. Triggered exits - think of a cross between an exit (in that the lemming is saved) and a trap (in that only one lemming can use it at a time). I can assure you that locked exits will be staying.
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Gimmicks and secret levels cull?
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2016, 01:41:45 PM »
I'm going to close this topic now, since the decision on gimmicks is pretty much finalised - they're all going except for Zombies, which will be considered a core mechanic (but we'll let conventions develop as to whether they're used in regular packs, or only dedicated packs in the style of Doomsday Lemmings). I see precedent for this in the form of the different types of lemmings in eg. Revolution and Touch; there's plenty of content made for them already; and they have plenty of ways in which they can make great puzzles.

Two other cases that remain for discussion, but in the context of general mechanics rather than as gimmicks:
- Wrapping. I'm open to implementing a wrap-around, but most likely in a way more similar to how Lix implements it than how the Wrap gimmicks worked. This will be discussed at a later date.
- Level edges. In the case of non-wrapping levels, I want a single, standard behaviour across all levels. But I'm open to discussion on exactly what that should be. (Level edges discussion topic)

I'll open a new topic for discussion of secret levels. (EDIT: Made it.)
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