Author Topic: Was: TeleLems  (Read 363 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Was: TeleLems
« on: June 09, 2020, 12:01:26 pm »
Edit Simon: mantha16 has unpublished TeleLems and prefers the original publication topic removed. Here are only the replies by others.



One quick general note: When you change the 0 at the end of the dropbox link to a 1, people can download it directly instead of having to open it in Dropbox. This also allows people who don't have a Dropbox account themselves to still download the music pack.

(I also learned that here on the forums for the first time ;) ).
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 05:06:07 pm by Simon »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: Re: TeleLems Part One
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2020, 08:43:47 pm »
Downloaded the pack and added it to my LP list. I'm really looking forward to this one! :lemcat:

Offline WillLem

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Re: Re: TeleLems Part One
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 06:13:15 pm »
Finally had a look at it this morning, here's some feedback. Hope it's useful! :lemcat:

Positives (click to show/hide)

Possible Improvements (click to show/hide)

I hope you find this useful. I look forward to the next version of this pack!

---

P.S. I've decided not to do this pack for the First Rank LP series, primarily because it's only the one rank, and after doing Ron Stard's Rodents and Proxima's TMChallenge, I've realised that the best approach to this series is to only do packs with multiple ranks, as the first is likely to be the easiest (and that's the whole point of the series). Also - as you mentioned - the copyrighted music might cause issues on YouTube.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Re: TeleLems Part One
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 10:22:43 pm »
I dont agree about the glider though cos superman doesnt need a hanglider although a cape if i could alter the position enough to make it look like its flapping in the wind might be good

Yes, exactly - this is what I meant. Lose the hangglider and just have it as Superman flying across the screen, cape a-flapping!

I dont see a way I like of changing steel and non steel without messing up the design of recognisable images such as daleks

Keep them exactly the same look and colours, but give them a 3D metallic "shine". This can be done by simply applying a reflection to one edge. If you like them as they are though, then of course leave them as is.

Personally my favourite sprite is the ghostbusters one although i am fond of the robocop one too

They're all great! The sprites are the best thing about this pack (although quite a few of the sets are unfinished). Still, big kudos! :thumbsup:

Offline Dullstar

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Was: TeleLems
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 11:36:02 pm »
Replays for first 8 levels. Some are probably backroutes.

Overall:

It's clear that a lot of work went into the visual presentation. Still, that's not the only consideration when making levels:

Can you guess what obstacles are considered steel and which ones are not? What's part of the background and what's terrain? This problem exists in several of the levels. Knight Rider is particularly bad. Dr. Who is probably the next worst. WillLem has a high tolerance for this compared to most of the active users here, but other players will be less forgiving. I found this to be a huge negative with the pack.

WillLem thinks the sprites are a plus; I'd say they're a minus due to being incomplete. If the sprites can be finished properly, they'd be fine, but neutrals and athletes look exactly the same as regular lemmings, which is, to say the least, frowned upon. The lack of athlete colors is bad enough, but neutrals looking the same as regular lemmings is really, REALLY bad and needs to be addressed.

I stopped at Ghostbusters. The terrain is a bit busy in that level because of the way the Menacing blood drips were used. For example, I tried separating a lemming from the crowd using a climber, but it got caught on something and got stuck in an infinite loop. I couldn't really tell what it was stuck on, and then I was just kind of annoyed and decided it was time for a break.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 05:02:07 pm by Simon »

Offline Simon

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2020, 05:04:46 pm »
mantha16 has unpublished TeleLems. We've deleted the original topic.

-- Simon

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2020, 05:32:39 pm »
I was already confused why I had supposedly opened this topic :D .

It's a pity, I didn't even get to test this. Maybe I would have had more positive things to say about it than the users who did get to play it. I'm willing to forgive quite a lot of mechanical hassle for the purposes of visual aesthetics... even though I have certainly grown to prefer fair levels in general, as much as pretty much anyone else who's been on the forum for a little longer, I guess.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline mantha16

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2020, 06:12:09 pm »
I was already confused why I had supposedly opened this topic :D .

It's a pity, I didn't even get to test this. Maybe I would have had more positive things to say about it than the users who did get to play it. I'm willing to forgive quite a lot of mechanical hassle for the purposes of visual aesthetics... even though I have certainly grown to prefer fair levels in general, as much as pretty much anyone else who's been on the forum for a little longer, I guess.

it was never about positive or negative it was about being constructive, how does just being like I dont like this I dont like that help anyone. WillLem phrases it more in a how about this sort of a way.

The purpose of feedback is about what you DONT like sure but its also about what you do like or constructive  suggestions.

People can say im being oversensitive or whatever but saying that I must do things a certain way is never going to get me to react well.  My husband doesn't tell me what to do so why would i let a complete stranger do it???

ok so levels that require CPM to solve ok well thats not ideal BUT I dont see it as a deal breaker in playing a level, plenty of levels i play in CPM because i don't like the aesthetics or I find it hard to read.  I don't tell the content creator they have to change it to suit me or the group as a whole.

What I find most objectionable is people telling me how I should feel about Dullstars feedback. If I found it rude and obnoxious Im perfectly entitled to say so, yes people can disagree but no one gets to dictate how another person should feel.


Offline grams88

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2020, 10:36:19 pm »
You haven't deleted your pack mantha, I'm hoping not as you put the hard work in for it. (Makes me sad)

Offline mantha16

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 10:42:35 pm »
the pack hasnt been deleted as such people just cant download it anymore until i decide what im going to do with it.

Offline grams88

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2020, 09:49:35 pm »
You will probably be surprised with how popular your pack might be. Sometimes words can be very hurtful, I like the way WillLem worded it by anything negative that gets said it is balanced out with some positive words.  I always believe that to be a good approach as there will be lots of people with different skills when it comes to the making of the level packs, the newcomers to the forum getting negative feedback can put us off and discourage us from the task itself. Thanks for your kind words in relation to Skii Sloping Lemmings, yeah it is quite a hard pack to do. It can be difficult when it comes to thinking up an idea for a level and you feel that idea is great but others might not like the idea and maybe tend to criticise it.

Hoping you are not going to delete the pack or anything like that. There will be lots of people who will play your pack and really enjoy it. I almost guarantee that. There's lots of people who are not got an account here.

Hope things are okay.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2020, 08:33:19 am »
Convincing mantha to remove the pack was never my intention and I regret how this turned out. I perhaps could have worded things a little better in the review. Simon describes pretty well what my actual intentions were; in a way, I kind of wrote the sort of review that I would have wanted to see if I had created the pack.
Quote from: Simon
This frankness is exactly what I prefer to hear from others about my work: Direct focus on problems. I wouldn't want replies to me pampered merely to comply to feedback rules.
I often spend very little time on the positives beyond a brief mention since that's not something I find particularly helpful to me. Good to know, of course, since it explicitly states that something isn't a problem, but knowing the problems is helpful to me.

Still, since my review created a bit of a stir, I'd like to mention a few things that were done well that I perhaps should have mentioned the first time.

First, assuming my solutions were correct, the levels occupy a difficulty level that a lot of custom content is sorely missing - we've got a lot of really hard levels, and a lot of ONML Tame-like uninspired X-Of-Everything-bash/build-past-a-few-obstacles-and-you're-done levels that don't actually help players get better at the game. Most of the levels in TeleLems are simple puzzles; not too hard, but not trivial either. This is good; we need more of these levels to exist.

Second, it's very clear that the author cared about how the levels look. While the visual design sometimes gets in the way of the gameplay, it's nothing that cannot be fixed - only two of the levels require large changes; for the others, simple tweaks would suffice. I didn't comment much on this because I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of this visual style in NeoLemmix compared to traditional styles, but I know a lot of players like it, and it's something that I'm willing to tolerate as long as it's not getting in the way.

I would encourage mantha to re-release the pack. While there are issues present in the initial release, there's nothing wrong with it that cannot be fixed, and CPM makes the original release at least playable as-is. There's much, much worse levels out there - my earliest levels being an example of this, and unlike TeleLems, the issues in my older levels are much deeper-rooted and thus harder to fix.



I will also discuss my criticisms again here, but only in the context of how, specifically, they can be fixed. Since I am now including specific suggestions for changes, it will be a longer section than before, though the issues discussed are largely the same. Positive stuff takes up less space since there's not much more to say about it once it's been said :). Still, I know seeing the large block of text after the problem statements could be a little disheartening, so I used some spoiler tags for the solutions to try to make it a bit more approachable and less intimidating.

1) Lemming sprites lack athlete/neutral colors.
Solution (click to show/hide)

2) Sometimes it's unclear what's steel, what's destructable, and what's background.
Solution (click to show/hide)

3) Various tweaks that don't deserve their own section.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline mantha16

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Re: Was: TeleLems
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2020, 03:55:37 pm »
see this is fantastic feedback which says exactly what you wanted to say in the first place but also includes possible fixes, even if I disagree I can at least see the logic of what you're saying rather than feeling like you are just shitting all over it.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet as some things are easier to fix than others

Knightrider - Ive made KITT lighter to see if that makes it blend into the background more as it does have the lights animated I don't think making it terrain would work as I specifically wanted the light to animate.  Ive made the change in the PNG file but I haven't tested it yet.

as far as steel v non steel is concerned the main reason one of the daleks is steel is because I didn't like any solution I came up with if it wasn't.  I was discussing it on discord and i was saying that Dr who is my least favourite aesthetic layout but that its because I wanted to minimise how much background was hidden as the background is gorgeous.  so theres a couple of ideas im playing with like making it smaller so I can just use it as a picture rather than the whole background.

I like more irregular steel shapes but the two ideas im mostly thinking about it either utilising one way arrows as an alternative for steel or expanding the pack so that theres multiple levels per them so whilst yes the first time you come across a gold Dalek you won't know its steel but for the remaining x levels in the dr who rank you'd know that a gold dalek is steel.  that won't reduce CPM on that first level but should reduce it overall if that makes sense because once a player if used to the conventions of a particular style theyd know it was consistant across the board.

Ghostbusters I like the dripping blood the way it is but I think maybe I can place other terrain behind it so the intented solution is forced but also that it can't be bypassed which leads to the loop.

I'm going to finish working on a collab pack and maybe do Sammings 2 which doesn't use custom stuff and is more simplistic in design intent then go back to Telelems

also thank you for the comment about the difficulty.  Mostly this is because I don't know the tricks needed to solve very difficult levels so therefore can't design them but I def agree I would like more content that is easy/medium as a maximum difficulty because thats my skill level so if I make more content at that level maybe it will encourage others to do so.