NeoLemmix > Closed
[SUG/DISCUSSION][PLAYER] Expand number of skill types allowed in a level
namida:
With the upcoming addition of the Shimmier, and a bit further down the track, the Jumper, we may be getting to the point where we want to allow more than 8 skill types per level. Indeed, even with only the current 17 skills (and even some cases pre-Fencer), I've occasionally found myself having to adjust levels to work with the 8 skill limitation.
What do people think here? Should we increase the limit? Should we get rid of it altogether? How should we allow for this on the skill panel? One possibility here is, if there are more than 8 skills, the furthest left / right turns into a "scroll left" / "scroll right" button, and only 6 skills are displayed at a time, or 7 if the user is at the edge. Another option might be to shrink the buttons to 2/3rds of their current height, and have two rows (increasing the skill panel's height by 1/3rd of a button), allowing for up to 16 skill types - and maybe more, if we also shrink the non-skill buttons accordingly.
Or, do people think this is fine as it is?
IchoTolot:
For now I tend to a slight increase, but the implementation is tricky and must be discussed. In that the main problem is located and if we find a good way, I would be completely fine with a higher increase.
Shrinking the buttons in width is only enough for a slight increase and will require customs buttons to be redrawn.
2 rows with a lower heigth would still have a limit of 16, would require redrawing of all custom buttons and would introduce the Lix "korean washing machine" effect of overloading the UI with tons of buttons.
The "scroll left" / "scroll right" idea seems more future-oriented to me, while also avoiding the "korean washing machine" effect. A limit might still be desirable when the skill type number increases even more over time and I think nobody here wants to scroll through a huge list. ;)
This of course has the disadvantage of not displaying everything at the same time. Testing needs to be done here I think.......
Strato Incendus:
YES! YES! PLEASE! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
For aesthetic purposes, though (and this included preserving visual similarity to the original Lemmings games), I'd suggest sticking to the classic 8-skills-bar as long as that threshold is not exceeded. The Lix skillbar, where all skills are visible all the time, including those you don't have any of in a given level, I find to be quite "cluttered" - too many buttons you don't need that can easily distract from the intended solution. I get why the Lix developers chose to have it this way, and I don't want to throw shade on them, but for NeoLemmix, I'd prefer a more efficient use of the space on the skillbar.
So there are basically three options, as far as I can see it:
* When the number of skill types exceeds 8, the section of the bar dedicated to skills (rather than the Minimap, Replay/Rewind buttons etc.) remains the same size, but the cells for the individual skills get smaller. In this case, one would have to put this to a litmus test to see how small the individual skill button can actually get when you throw in all skill types which are currently available.
* The skill bar expands - most likely to the right - when additional skills are added, at the cost of shrinking the other components. Most likely, this would mean making the Minimap less wide, since buttons like Pause/Nuke/Rewind/Clear Physics should remain the same size as the skill buttons. This would not require the buttons to be redrawn, but the Minimap would have to be able to adapt in size - not gradually, fortunately, but at least step-wise, becoming one step smaller for each increase of the skill bar beyond 8.
* Scrolling through a skill bar which is only partly visible - totally had not thought of that. That somehwat violates the "immediacy" philosophy though, which has already lead to changes that follow principles such as "one should never have to use clear physics", the level itself should show you everything you need to know right from the start.
Simon:
--- Quote from: Icho ---Lix "korean washing machine" effect of overloading the UI with tons of buttons.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Strato ---Lix skillbar, where all skills are visible all the time, including those you don't have any of in a given level, I find to be quite "cluttered" - too many buttons you don't need that can easily distract from the intended solution. I get why the Lix developers chose to have it this way, and I don't want to throw shade on them
--- End quote ---
Please destroy the Lix UI with the harshest criticism you can muster. I want to get brutal and honest feedback, it's the only way to improve Lix. "Korean washing machine", a 2016 thread on Lix skill panel
Lix limited to 8 first, then to 12 because everybody wanted more than 8, and then 12 out of 14 made no sense because all 14 is only 2 more and much simpler. Thus now 14.
Right, all this is really 2 questions, (a) what to allow in level design and (b) how to make the UI.
--- Quote from: Icho ---The "scroll left" / "scroll right" idea seems more future-oriented to me
--- End quote ---
This is dangerous. Information about leftover skills is so vital, I would not hide it behind buttons or scrollbars.
But I can't give a counterproposal yet, I'll sleep over this exciting design problem.
-- Simon
Nepster:
My suggestion: Add potential for two more skills, i.e. 10 in total. By shrinking the minimap, we can fit them in nicely. As this would mean making the menu bar more adaptive to the number of skills in the level, I would go even as far as: Never display any empty skill panels, but use the newly freed space for the minimap (so that a level with just two skills would have a huge minimap).
--- Quote from: Strato Incendus on May 15, 2019, 01:43:48 PM ---When the number of skill types exceeds 8, the section of the bar dedicated to skills (rather than the Minimap, Replay/Rewind buttons etc.) remains the same size, but the cells for the individual skills get smaller. In this case, one would have to put this to a litmus test to see how small the individual skill button can actually get when you throw in all skill types which are currently available.
--- End quote ---
As we currently store everything in pixelated sprites, I fear that they will look horrible when shrinking the cells.
--- Quote from: Strato Incendus on May 15, 2019, 01:43:48 PM ---The skill bar expands - most likely to the right - when additional skills are added, at the cost of shrinking the other components. Most likely, this would mean making the Minimap less wide, since buttons like Pause/Nuke/Rewind/Clear Physics should remain the same size as the skill buttons. This would not require the buttons to be redrawn, but the Minimap would have to be able to adapt in size - not gradually, fortunately, but at least step-wise, becoming one step smaller for each increase of the skill bar beyond 8.
--- End quote ---
As mentioned above, I like a solution similar to this, but remember some previous discussions that this would only work for at most 10 skills in total. Note that even now NeoLemmix supports some different minimap sizes (IIRC depending on window size and zoom factor), so this should not be too much work regarding the minimap.
--- Quote from: Strato Incendus on May 15, 2019, 01:43:48 PM ---Scrolling through a skill bar which is only partly visible - totally had not thought of that. That somehwat violates the "immediacy" philosophy though, which has already lead to changes that follow principles such as "one should never have to use clear physics", the level itself should show you everything you need to know right from the start.
--- End quote ---
As Simon already mentioned, the skills are so vital to the game, that they should always be displayed.
PS: I prefer the NeoLemmix system over the Lix system of always displaying all skills, because the Lix system would mean lots of grayed-out buttons (because the skill is not used in the level) and less flexibility regarding additions of new skills.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version